Why did Green's Raticate disappear?

[Joltik]

I think he just boxed it. There are plenty of better Pokemon then Raticate, and he did say something about having more than 50 Pokemon.(If I'm remembering correctly)

[coolcatkim22]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, your jumping the gun a little bit there kid.

"His Raticate most likely died" That's a pretty big statement to say especially since:
(a) We never see his Raticate die.
(b) Your rival never mentions his Raticate died.
and (c) Seriously? Why is that the most likely answer?

Not to mention he says at one point that's caught 40 different kinds of Pokemon, so it would be easy for him to switch out his Raticate. And as for a reason for being at the Pokemon Tower, he says he was looking for a Marowak (though only could catch a Cubone).

Seriously, is logic and reason dead or something...

[PKMN Trainer Faye]

Indeed, I think the people who say YOU KILLED THAT RATICATE!!! are just those who want Pokemon to be more "mature/dark/edgy" or something. Not that I ever invested in the Giovanni Committed Suicide theory. >3>; /hypocrisy nod

But seriously now, it's not hard to wrap one's head around. The Rival boxed the Raticate. Even a baby could figure it out, and I had no trouble figuring it out when I was 12.

[garrison-san]

I wouldn't want a Champion with a Raticate, frankly.

Tsk, Raticate are awesome, every champion should have one. (I loved my Raticate in Blue, anyway.)

He blatantly boxed it. As I recall, he never got much use out of that Cubone he mentions catching either.

[Metabee]

I wouldn't want a Champion with a Raticate, frankly.

Tsk, Raticate are awesome, every champion should have one. (I loved my Raticate in Blue, anyway.)

He blatantly boxed it. As I recall, he never got much use out of that Cubone he mentions catching either.

Nor the forty other Pokémon he supposedly had when you battle on the SS. Anne.

[Green Zubat]

Read Rival's Story by Gastlys Mama. It answers this question.

Or read dialogue from the game where Green/Blue specifically states he's there looking for a Cubone :/

Not saying that that's not all he was there for, but it is perfectly possible that that was just a line he told Red, so he didn't have to talk about the embarassing/sad truth that his Raticate passed away, possibly due to his train/battling techniques.

Raticate left his team because he got something better to replace it.

Why would he replace it with something else he caught? He doesn't even have a full team at that point. I think, as far as the Raticate not dying goes, the most logical deduction would be that he traded it for either the Exeggcute or Gyarados, which are the only two new additions to his team in the fifth battle.

He wasn't there because it died, he doesn't seem the type (at the time) to be mourning his Pokemon, and he certainly did not seem depressed about anything.

FYI, death is generally quite depressing, even to those not prone to tears.

But how does an eleven year old kill a 40 pound rodent monster within a few days? He is a bit cocky and doesn't seem like the safest trainer so he could have overworked it..
Maybe it got poisoned or was seriously injured.

A few days? That rat's been with him since probably before his third battle, and after the fourth. There is a disparity between real world and game world time-lines.

And sure, he's cocky, but he isn't stupid. The reason for Red and Green's rivalry was because they got interested in Pokémon, and being the grandson of Professor Oak, he'd know how to take care of his Pokemon.

And you know this because ... ? It's entirely possibly that Blue killed his Raticate by pushing it too hard in battle/training, given how the game constantly tells us that he treats his Pokémon badly all the time. Just because he was Oak's grandson, it doesn't mean he knows a lot about caring for Pokémon, necessarily.

Why would he be at the Pokemon Tower? Did he want to fight people? He doesn't seem to have caught any Pokemon unless he transfered them into his PC.

Obviously. He had claimed to have captured 40 Pokemon by the time you battle him in Vermillion. Some of those were probably duplicates, nonetheless, he had 40 Pokemon and did not use a full team. He probably only used what he saw had potential for him to bother training.

But training something up and then just boxing it would be a waste, from that POV. You would at least keep it on-hand until you had something better to replace it with, I'd think, yet Blue's team has a spare slot during the fifth battle, where his Raticate should be.

[The Outrage]

Why would he replace it with something else he caught? He doesn't even have a full team at that point.

Blue (game) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

• Before battle:

"Bonjour! <player>! Imagine seeing you here! <player>, were you really invited? So how's your Pokédex coming? I already caught 40 kinds, pal! Different kinds are everywhere! Crawl around in grassy areas!

Blue (game)/FireRed and LeafGreen - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

Piece it together yourself.

[Shiny Celebi]

I imagine he boxed it for another Pokemon. He'd caught 40 by that time so probably wanted to switch for something better.

[Green Zubat]

Why would he replace it with something else he caught? He doesn't even have a full team at that point.

Blue (game) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

• Before battle:

"Bonjour! <player>! Imagine seeing you here! <player>, were you really invited? So how's your Pokédex coming? I already caught 40 kinds, pal! Different kinds are everywhere! Crawl around in grassy areas!

Blue (game)/FireRed and LeafGreen - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

Piece it together yourself.

I still don't buy it. If he already had 40 by then, he would have trained enough up to fill a team. But he didn't have a full team, so he must've been only training the one's he thought were worth it. Even if he stopped thinking Raticate was worth it, I don't think he'd just box it and start training Gyarados & Exeggcute--it would be a waste not to at least keep it on-hand until there's no more room. It only makes sense if he traded it or the Raticate died.

P.S. Why am I even restating this? The bottom of my last post clearly answers this already. Go back and read that.

[H-con]

I still don't buy it. If he already had 40 by then, he would have trained enough up to fill a team. But he didn't have a full team, so he must've been only training the one's he thought were worth it. Even if he stopped thinking Raticate was worth it, I don't think he'd just box it and start training Gyarados & Exeggcute--it would be a waste not to at least keep it on-hand until there's no more room. It only makes sense if he traded it or the Raticate died.

P.S. Why am I even restating this? The bottom of my last post clearly answers this already. Go back and read that.

No it doesn't. Maybe he thought that Raticate was a shit pokémon? That he didn't want to have it on his team? that he didn't want a full team? Or you know, maybe he found out that Raticate wasn't worth the effort, and ditched it. Moreover, why bother even continuing to train a pokémon that you're not going to end up using? I know for sure I often do the same, I don't have to fill my team just to use something I don't want to use, but rather focus on the pokémon that I'll actually end up using. In addition, if he caught 40 kinds at SS. Anne, and it makes sense to keep something at hand at all times, then surely that explains why he has 4 pokémon at the time.


And of course, from a game balancing view, which is by far the most logical approach to this, then it makes sense to go from four pokémon to five, and mix up the typing. He already had a Normal type on his team, by Pokémon Tower the player should really start thinking about having things that counter more diverse teams. As of such, it makes sense to give him diverse typings. Hell, even guys like Barry don't have a full team in their fifth match (Canalave (Platinum), which is further into the game than Pokémon Tower). Jumping from four pokémon to six is rather ... drastic so early in the game, and cramming a Raticate in his team just for "having a complete team" isn't really a good excuse for doing just that.


So no, it doesn't just make sense if it's traded or died. You really can't say anything from his dialogue, which sounds just like something Green would say

"I heard there was a Cut master on board. But, he was just a seasick, old man! But Cut itself is really useful! You should go see him! Smell ya!"

"Hey, <player>! What brings you here? *Your Pokémon don't look dead! I can at least make them faint! Let's go, pal!"
*Is your Pokémon dead? Hey! It's alive!

and it's not really difficult to figure out why he's in the Tower to begin with (catching pokémon). Besides, how often do you even hear of pokémon dying from battle? You encounter and battle heaps of pokémon, and only one pokémon, his Raticate perish? That's grasping at straws and you know it.


That, and I'm getting pretty tired of this headcanon. Well, generally most headcanon.

[Green Zubat]

I still don't buy it. If he already had 40 by then, he would have trained enough up to fill a team. But he didn't have a full team, so he must've been only training the one's he thought were worth it. Even if he stopped thinking Raticate was worth it, I don't think he'd just box it and start training Gyarados & Exeggcute--it would be a waste not to at least keep it on-hand until there's no more room. It only makes sense if he traded it or the Raticate died.

P.S. Why am I even restating this? The bottom of my last post clearly answers this already. Go back and read that.

No it doesn't.

Yes, it did. He asked the 40 kinds question, when my other post already quoted and responded to that. He didn't ask a different question, he just restated an old one, ignoring my reply, unlike yours.

Maybe he thought that Raticate was a shit pokémon? That he didn't want to have it on his team? that he didn't want a full team? Or you know, maybe he found out that Raticate wasn't worth the effort, and ditched it. Moreover, why bother even continuing to train a pokémon that you're not going to end up using? I know for sure I often do the same, I don't have to fill my team just to use something I don't want to use, but rather focus on the pokémon that I'll actually end up using. In addition, if he caught 40 kinds at SS. Anne, and it makes sense to keep something at hand at all times, then surely that explains why he has 4 pokémon at the time.

Well I'm not suggesting that he should have kept on using it, only that it'd only make sense to me to keep it in your party until you have something better to replace it with, and just use the others, like back-up. But at this point it's all just conjecture.

And of course, from a game balancing view, which is by far the most logical approach to this, then it makes sense to go from four pokémon to five, and mix up the typing. He already had a Normal type on his team, by Pokémon Tower the player should really start thinking about having things that counter more diverse teams. As of such, it makes sense to give him diverse typings. Hell, even guys like Barry don't have a full team in their fifth match (Canalave (Platinum), which is further into the game than Pokémon Tower). Jumping from four pokémon to six is rather ... drastic so early in the game, and cramming a Raticate in his team just for "having a complete team" isn't really a good excuse for doing just that.

Well of course I get why it might have been done from the gameplay POV, but we're supposed to be trying to explain this in-universe here. Hence the death or trade theory.

So no, it doesn't just make sense if it's traded or died. You really can't say anything from his dialogue, which sounds just like something Green would say

"I heard there was a Cut master on board. But, he was just a seasick, old man! But Cut itself is really useful! You should go see him! Smell ya!"

"Hey, <player>! What brings you here? *Your Pokémon don't look dead! I can at least make them faint! Let's go, pal!"
*Is your Pokémon dead? Hey! It's alive!

and it's not really difficult to figure out why he's in the Tower to begin with (catching pokémon). Besides, how often do you even hear of pokémon dying from battle? You encounter and battle heaps of pokémon, and only one pokémon, his Raticate perish? That's grasping at straws and you know it.

Well that's news to me. Seriously, it's Gen I, that gen was pretty dark & edgy compared to the later games. A Marowak getting shot in the head was core part of the storyline, for heavens sake. It's entirely possible. I'm not saying it definitely happened, mind, only that it is a possibility, and an interesting one, I think.

[H-con]

Yes, it did. He asked the 40 kinds question, when my other post already quoted and responded to that. He didn't ask a different question, he just restated an old one, ignoring my reply, unlike yours.

Again, even if you have filled up your boxes, doesn't mean you want to, or care enough to train a full team. If you're boxes are filled with, well, crap pokémon, then it doesn't make sense to just train them just to have a full team, when you can focus on solely training those you want.

Well I'm not suggesting that he should have kept on using it, only that it'd only make sense to me to keep it in your party until you have something better to replace it with, and just use the others, like back-up. But at this point it's all just conjecture.

Again, it doesn't. People do things differently, and some people (me included) use some pokémon temporarily to do specific things. If Raticate had filled it's purpose at that time, then I for one would have easily dumped it into a box to rot.

People don't need a full team at any time. I don't fill my teams with shitty Normal pokémon from the starting routes or the like just because I have an available slot on my team early on (well, except maybe for Zigzagoon, but that's solely for Pickup). Besides, a person so confident in his abilities don't think his team can be defeated, so why should he need the back up to begin with?

Well of course I get why it might have been done from the gameplay POV, but we're supposed to be trying to explain this in-universe here. Hence the death or trade theory.

I think that in order to fully see why he dumped his Raticate for something, you have to look at it from this angle. Even from a game design point of view, it certainly can be explained in-universe that he thought that two Normal-types were not really necessary on his team, and decided that he didn't need it on his team. Arguing strictly in-universe, might as well say that he should have had a weakened Cubone on his team in Pokémon Tower, seeing how he just caught it and had space on his team.

I think that not everything should be spoon-fed to us, and rather use intuition to why he didn't have a Raticate on his team anymore. That's why I like Pokémon Mansion and Mewtwo very well. You've got a few clues scattered around for those who are curios, and you can see the remains all around you. That's enough to piece together what really happened.

Well that's news to me. Seriously, it's Gen I, that gen was pretty dark & edgy compared to the later games.

Well, this explains a lot.

Pokémon aren't "dark & edgy" (god how I hate that term), and never were. It's projecting what you want it to be into a situation that never were. Besides, somehow trying to destroy the universe or trying to directly kill the player aren't evil enough? I think some people want Raticate to have died to back up their image of gen I somehow being "dark", whatever they put into that.

A Marowak getting shot in the head was core part of the storyline, for heavens sake. It's entirely possible. I'm not saying it definitely happened, mind, only that it is a possibility, and an interesting one, I think.

Shot in the head? Come on, that's really not true. As far as I remember, it just says killed. That's a very different thing from pulling a glock and popping someone/somethings skull out. And core part, that's stretching it. It's an obstacle, yes, but I would hardly say it's a core part, in a game with no real overarching plot.

Moreover, why just his Raticate? Why not any other pokémon ever? Why doesn't he mention anything when he's leaving SS. Anne? Or Pokémon Tower? If his pokémon were so badly wounded by fighting (moreso then average), then surely even he would react to that. But he just casually walks off.


The thing is that it's not entirely possible when the entire theory is based on ... nothing at all.

[Green Zubat]

Well I'm not suggesting that he should have kept on using it, only that it'd only make sense to me to keep it in your party until you have something better to replace it with, and just use the others, like back-up. But at this point it's all just conjecture.

Again, it doesn't. People do things differently, and some people (me included) use some pokémon temporarily to do specific things. If Raticate had filled it's purpose at that time, then I for one would have easily dumped it into a box to rot.

People don't need a full team at any time. I don't fill my teams with shitty Normal pokémon from the starting routes or the like just because I have an available slot on my team early on (well, except maybe for Zigzagoon, but that's solely for Pickup). Besides, a person so confident in his abilities don't think his team can be defeated, so why should he need the back up to begin with?

Meh. Again, it's all very subjective.

Well of course I get why it might have been done from the gameplay POV, but we're supposed to be trying to explain this in-universe here. Hence the death or trade theory.

I think that in order to fully see why he dumped his Raticate for something, you have to look at it from this angle.

Why? Talking about out-of-universe events is irrelevant when coming up with in-universe explanations, unless they somehow inspire an in-universe explanation. JUst saying the game designers thought it would make for a better battle doesn't help us explain what might have been Blue's reason for changing his team.

Arguing strictly in-universe, might as well say that he should have had a weakened Cubone on his team in Pokémon Tower, seeing how he just caught it and had space on his team.

Gameplay is not necessarily applicable to the story.

I think that not everything should be spoon-fed to us, and rather use intuition to why he didn't have a Raticate on his team anymore. That's why I like Pokémon Mansion and Mewtwo very well. You've got a few clues scattered around for those who are curios, and you can see the remains all around you. That's enough to piece together what really happened.

And I agree, hence why I like fan theories like this ...

Well that's news to me. Seriously, it's Gen I, that gen was pretty dark & edgy compared to the later games.

Well, this explains a lot.

Pokémon aren't "dark & edgy" (god how I hate that term), and never were. It's projecting what you want it to be into a situation that never were. Besides, somehow trying to destroy the universe or trying to directly kill the player aren't evil enough? I think some people want Raticate to have died to back up their image of gen I somehow being "dark", whatever they put into that.

[...]

A Marowak getting shot in the head was core part of the storyline, for heavens sake. It's entirely possible. I'm not saying it definitely happened, mind, only that it is a possibility, and an interesting one, I think.

Shot in the head? Come on, that's really not true. As far as I remember, it just says killed. That's a very different thing from pulling a glock and popping someone/somethings skull out.

OK, to be fair, I had slipped that in without realising (I guess when you hear a piece of fanon enough times ...). However, I didn't say Pokemon was Dark and Edgy (:P) full stop. It's not Dead Space, or anything. Indeed, Pokemon is very family friendly. But Gen I was darker and edgier than the other games, I think (well more so than II, III & IV, IMO). There's already the Marowak dying & her orphaned Cubone, and then there're the rest of the Channelers in the Pokemon Tower, who are pretty creepy whilst possessed, along there's Pokemon Mansion & TR overall. I'm not "projecting anything"; this stuff is there. If anything, I think you're projecting you're issues with people more vehement in their defence of fanon than I.

And core part, that's stretching it. It's an obstacle, yes, but I would hardly say it's a core part, in a game with no real overarching plot.

Well, it's an obstacle you have to pass in order to move on in the game, so it is a core part, especially considering it's one of the few plotlines in a game with little plot.

Moreover, why just his Raticate? Why not any other pokémon ever? Why doesn't he mention anything when he's leaving SS. Anne? Or Pokémon Tower? If his pokémon were so badly wounded by fighting (moreso then average), then surely even he would react to that. But he just casually walks off.

Well maybe the player didn't do it, maybe it happened between the SS Anne & Pokemon Tower. Besides, gameplay =/= story. Or maybe in this case it does and he just doesn't care that much about his Raticate. Who knows?

The thing is that it's not entirely possible when the entire theory is based on ... nothing at all.

Bullshit. It's a perfectly valid theory based on valid inferences from canon, specifically:

1.) Gary no longer has his Raticate after the S. S. Anne
2.) Pokemon death is a strong theme in that generation
3.) When we next meet him without his Raticate, he's at a graveyard for Pokemon, talking about death
4.) Therefore, Gary's Raticate may have died

That's a logical conclusion from canon. It's certainly not the only conclusion, but it is one of them. Saying that the Raticate theory is based on nothing at all is untrue, plain & simple.

[H-con]

Meh. Again, it's all very subjective.

Team selection, yes. Besides, your entire argument is based on subjective interpretation of the situation. And again, if he wanted a full team, he could have had one at SS Anne. He doesn't. Why should he then have a full team in Pokémon Tower?

Why? Talking about out-of-universe events is irrelevant when coming up with in-universe explanations, unless they somehow inspire an in-universe explanation. JUst saying the game designers thought it would make for a better battle doesn't help us explain what might have been Blue's reason for changing his team.

No, I think you have. First of, his team goes from two Normal-types to one, and he increases his focus on other thing. That's balancing both from game developers and "in-universe". Moreover, in order to go from four to five and diversify his team, he must drop one. Pidgeotto is arguably the better of the two (plus with Flying to boot), and having more pokémon.

We don't need everything spelled out for us. If every minor thing like that was dragged out, the game would be pretty boring in the long run. That he ditched a weaker pokémon for a stronger (at least in the long run) and don't focus on a weaker one is hardly shocking.

And I agree, hence why I like fan theories like this ...

No, I don't think you know what I meant. What I meant was that every little detail doesn't have to explained, but have a natural explanation, without dragging in things like this "theory" calls for. My problem with headcanons such as these are that people go into denial mode hard. They take a minute amount of something looking like evidence, and blows it up to the extreme, to fit their view of how they want or believe the games really are/should be.

Sort of like a conspiracy theory, really

OK, to be fair, I had slipped that in without realising (I guess when you hear a piece of fanon enough times ...). However, I didn't say Pokemon was Dark and Edgy (:P) full stop. It's not Dead Space, or anything. Indeed, Pokemon is very family friendly. But Gen I was darker and edgier than the other games, I think (well more so than II, III & IV, IMO). There's already the Marowak dying & her orphaned Cubone, and then there're the rest of the Channelers in the Pokemon Tower, who are pretty creepy whilst possessed, along there's Pokemon Mansion & TR overall. I'm not "projecting anything"; this stuff is there. If anything, I think you're projecting you're issues with people more vehement in their defence of fanon than I.

Yeah, nah, no. Team Rocket isn't really all that evil for a gang of organized criminals if you ask me, nor are the other teams either (sans perhaps Cyrus and Ghetsis, but they are not really representative for the entire team in terms of evil plans). Team Rocket didn't really do anything very special, and in many ways are they rather weak and ... pushovers basically. The Channelers are more laughable than dark really, most of that dialogue just cracks me up. Sure, one pokémon died, but I don't see how that's really worse then what's implied in the Strange House in BW2, just to cite one specific example.

Well, it's an obstacle you have to pass in order to move on in the game, so it is a core part, especially considering it's one of the few plotlines in a game with little plot.

One might just as well say a Cut-tree is a core part of the plot, just because it hinders the player from advancing. Marowak didn't really do much else, except it had something behind it. It's not integral that it's a Marowak, or that it's dead, just that it's blocking the way, and you need to find a way to deal with it.

Well maybe the player didn't do it, maybe it happened between the SS Anne & Pokemon Tower. Besides, gameplay =/= story. Or maybe in this case it does and he just doesn't care that much about his Raticate. Who knows?

Ahh, but in this case the gameplay have very much to do with the "story". Because never have it been implied that a pokémon can so easily die just from fighting. I mean, think of the implications otherwise. Why should it die just that one time. Couldn't it happen to your pokémon? Why not, if it could happen to his? It raises so many questions.

However, the first part is just rubbish. "Well, maybe the player di..". Well, maybe aliens came down from space and took it. Might as well say that. How am I even supposed to say anything against that? How are anyone supposed to know anything about what happened between SS Anne and Pokémon Tower, except he changed his team and caught a Cubone, when there's nothing to go from?

Bullshit. It's a perfectly valid theory based on valid inferences from canon, specifically:

1.) Gary no longer has his Raticate after the S. S. Anne
2.) Pokemon death is a strong theme in that generation
3.) When we next meet him without his Raticate, he's at a graveyard for Pokemon, talking about death
4.) Therefore, Gary's Raticate may have died

Bullshit. Pokémon death aren't a "strong theme" in that generation. In fact, I struggle finding one recurring theme that generation at all. I don't like that you mix that up in some sort of "canon" list, because you know damn well that's extremely subjective.

He doesn't really talk about death either. Sure, he mentions it one time in one sentence, which are related to the place he's in. He just picks a quote before battle ("I can at least make them faint").

Besides, the first one should be that he doesn't have it on his team. To say that he doesn't have his Raticate is shifting the words to make it sound more plausible. I have hundreds of pokémon, but I can't have them all on my party.

That's a logical conclusion from canon. It's certainly not the only conclusion, but it is one of them. Saying that the Raticate theory is based on nothing at all is untrue, plain & simple.

It's based on completely rubbish implications and evidence that's not there. Several arguments are highly subjective (and many based on how some people want pokémon to be), and there's hardly a thing in canon that supports this at all. We have a perfectly good reason to why he was in Pokémon Tower, and from a game design perspective it doesn't make sense.

[Green Zubat]

Meh. Again, it's all very subjective.

Team selection, yes. Besides, your entire argument is based on subjective interpretation of the situation. And again, if he wanted a full team, he could have had one at SS Anne. He doesn't. Why should he then have a full team in Pokémon Tower?

I didn't say he should have a full team at the Tower, I said that he'd already put a significant amount of time & effort into training that Raticate up, and hence it would seem like a waste to me. But like I said, it's subjective, and if you didn't already get it, that was my polite way of saying I'm not going to argue opinions with you, because it's pointless.

Why? Talking about out-of-universe events is irrelevant when coming up with in-universe explanations, unless they somehow inspire an in-universe explanation. JUst saying the game designers thought it would make for a better battle doesn't help us explain what might have been Blue's reason for changing his team.

No, I think you have. First of, his team goes from two Normal-types to one, and he increases his focus on other thing. That's balancing both from game developers and "in-universe".

Yeah, but it was still tied to something in-verse, so you are still looking at it from an in-verse perspective, as you should, like I said.

We don't need everything spelled out for us. If every minor thing like that was dragged out, the game would be pretty boring in the long run.

Why do you keep bringing thsi "spelling it out" business up? When have I ever demanded an explanation from the designers? This is the opposite of asking for it to be spelled out--we're coming to our own conclusions.

That he ditched a weaker pokémon for a stronger (at least in the long run) and don't focus on a weaker one

That's one possibility.

And I agree, hence why I like fan theories like this ...

No, I don't think you know what I meant. What I meant was that every little detail doesn't have to explained, but have a natural explanation, without dragging in things like this "theory" calls for. They take a minute amount of something looking like evidence, and blows it up to the extreme, to fit their view of how they want or believe the games really are/should be.

Sort of like a conspiracy theory, really

I'm not "blowing anything up to extremes", the first three points I mentioned when explaining how people come to the dead Raticate theory in my last posts were all completely true, hence the fourth point, the conclusion. The distortion that's going on here is you trying downplay this validity of this theory, because you don't like fanon. Again, I'm not saying it's the ONLY explanation, but it is a perfectly reasonable one.

My problem with headcanons such as these are that people go into denial mode hard.

Hard denial mode? Is that what you call it when people disagree with your opinions?

OK, to be fair, I had slipped that in without realising (I guess when you hear a piece of fanon enough times ...). However, I didn't say Pokemon was Dark and Edgy (:P) full stop. It's not Dead Space, or anything. Indeed, Pokemon is very family friendly. But Gen I was darker and edgier than the other games, I think (well more so than II, III & IV, IMO). There's already the Marowak dying & her orphaned Cubone, and then there're the rest of the Channelers in the Pokemon Tower, who are pretty creepy whilst possessed, along there's Pokemon Mansion & TR overall. I'm not "projecting anything"; this stuff is there. If anything, I think you're projecting you're issues with people more vehement in their defence of fanon than I.

Yeah, nah, no. Team Rocket isn't really all that evil for a gang of organized criminals if you ask me, nor are the other teams either (sans perhaps Cyrus and Ghetsis, but they are not really representative for the entire team in terms of evil plans). Team Rocket didn't really do anything very special, and in many ways are they rather weak and ... pushovers basically. The Channelers are more laughable than dark really, most of that dialogue just cracks me up.

Walking up to the player and saying "give me blood" (et al) is a lot darker than most of the stuff the trainers in the other gens say to you. And again, no matter how you feel about TR, they killed a Pokemon (which then came back from the grave), and horribly tortured at least one more. Those two things together is at least worse than gens II & III (Unless you count Colo/XD), but coupled with the other stuff I mentioned, Gen I is worse than all the others (except possibly Gen V, which I can't speak for; see below).

Sure, one pokémon died, but I don't see how that's really worse then what's implied in the Strange House in BW2, just to cite one specific example.

I actually haven't playe BW2 yet (please don't spoil me), however, I will point out that I specifically said that Gen I is at last darker "than II, III & IV, IMO".

Well, it's an obstacle you have to pass in order to move on in the game, so it is a core part, especially considering it's one of the few plotlines in a game with little plot.

One might just as well say a Cut-tree is a core part of the plot, just because it hinders the player from advancing. Marowak didn't really do much else, except it had something behind it. It's not integral that it's a Marowak, or that it's dead, just that it's blocking the way, and you need to find a way to deal with it.

Last time I checked, there was never a major sub-plot in RBY based around a cut tree, and it was never impossible to move on in the main story without it, as is the case with the Pokemon Tower.

Well maybe the player didn't do it, maybe it happened between the SS Anne & Pokemon Tower. Besides, gameplay =/= story. Or maybe in this case it does and he just doesn't care that much about his Raticate. Who knows?

Ahh, but in this case the gameplay have very much to do with the "story". Because never have it been implied that a pokémon can so easily die just from fighting. I mean, think of the implications otherwise. Why should it die just that one time. Couldn't it happen to your pokémon? Why not, if it could happen to his? It raises so many questions.

That was my point about the "who knows" part. Because we don't. There are few certainties here, and many possibilities.

However, the first part is just rubbish. "Well, maybe the player di..". Well, maybe aliens came down from space and took it. Might as well say that. How am I even supposed to say anything against that? How are anyone supposed to know anything about what happened between SS Anne and Pokémon Tower, except he changed his team and caught a Cubone, when there's nothing to go from?

Well excuse me if I raised a counterpoint that you can't defeat. Look, this thread is about whether or not his Raticate died, not how it happened, and it's totally plausible it happened between battles. If you can't deal with that, not my problem.

Bullshit. Pokémon death aren't a "strong theme" in that generation. In fact, I struggle finding one recurring theme that generation at all. I don't like that you mix that up in some sort of "canon" list, because you know damn well that's extremely subjective.

Well, it was a major plot point at least, and then there's all the people not connected to the plot who talk about death in Lavender town. The point is, pokemon death was a well-established, canon fact from Pokemon's inception. That is what I meant by point number 2.

Besides, the first one should be that he doesn't have it on his team. To say that he doesn't have his Raticate is shifting the words to make it sound more plausible. I have hundreds of pokémon, but I can't have them all on my party.

What? When I said he no longer had Raticate, I meant that he no longer had it on hand. I wasn't shifting words, those were just the ones that came naturally. I think you're getting a little too invested in this argument ...

That's a logical conclusion from canon. It's certainly not the only conclusion, but it is one of them. Saying that the Raticate theory is based on nothing at all is untrue, plain & simple.

It's based on completely rubbish implications and evidence that's not there.

There's a difference you not liking the implications and them being rubbish, you know. And sorry, evidence not being there? So you're telling that Gary's Raticate was on hand in the Pokemon Tower, that Pokemon death isn't a major plot point in Gen I, and that Gary doesn't talk about death at the Tower? Because that's all the evidence I brought up in this context...

Several arguments are highly subjective [...] and there's hardly a thing in canon that supports this at all. We have a perfectly good reason to why he was in Pokémon Tower, and from a game design perspective it doesn't make sense.

All of it is subjective, because neither of us actually know what happened to his Raticate.

(and many based on how some people want pokémon to be)

Is this aimed at me? If you're going to accuse me of something, I'd rather you just come out and say it, as opposed to hiding behind passive-aggressive comments.