"Secrecy" of the Staff Board

[ChainReaction01]

I like how people keep saying the Staff lied, like "there is no expansion" or "there is no leak". To the best of my knowledge, no Staff ever said something like this; we just didn't answer. As in no comment. That's a thing, you know.

[KidBeano]

Request: Contest stats being merged with normal stats. Probably should have been discussed openly. ATF mentioned it on a whim during the staff meeting. It was barely even worth discussing, most people did this already.
Request: Creation of a Leader-esque Contest League. Possibly could have been discussed openly. ATF first introduced it during the staff meeting. There was no "long term development" to discuss. Its more than likely a prototype for the final product.
Discussion of TPW as a potential expansion. Should not be discussed openly for the reason I outlined above. Then stop referencing it please
Discussion of GTS+ as a potential expansion. Should not be discussed openly for the reason I outlined above. ^
Vote on expansion. Should not be discussed openly for the reason I outlined above. I actually disagree with this one believe it or not, but whatever floats your boat.
Discussion of other, later potential expansions. Should not be discussed openly for the reason I outlined above. Again, I wouldn't mind discussing it with the public.
General agreement there is enough Staff for now. Promotions/bans, everyone agrees should be kept private. Yes.
Request: new Park addition, Mystery Zone. Was brought up in public.
Request: Endurance Run as a Main RP option. Was brought up in public.
Reminder that Staff issues are to be kept private. General reminder. You make us remind you so frequently, I don't see why anyone would need a reminder >_>
State of the URPG address to be given out soon. Public announcement: was going to reveal TPW expansion. I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to...? If you mean TPW publicly announcing URPG, we weren't informed that they were going to do that.

Anyway, what I think time after time you fail to understand is that there really isn't much going on in the staff boards. I would really appreciate if you would stop attacking us with this issue, because I'm a mod, I know better, quit bitching. I know better because I know what the contents of the staff boards are and you do not. What you fail to see is the staff's point of view in this argument. You have repeatedly played the victim, while you fail to give any good reason why this is a "problem". If you would like to be taken more seriously, perhaps gather some kind of support among other members, then talk to us, instead of posting an inflammatory statement about how you assume we're going to pass this off as nonsense without reading it. We are certainly going to read it first before we realize its nonsense

EDIT: I would apologize for my slightly rude rhetoric, but this:


If all you are going to say is something along the lines of "I'm a mod, I know better, quit bitching", kindly gtfo.

Made it quite clear that you did not want an entirely civil discussion, and so, you shall not be granted one.

Way to quote the thing that Chainy posted and make it seem like I posted it. :s

Tl;dr to everyone at the moment - will do so after school.

[WebMaster]

I don't think it's a matter of the staff willingly keeping everything secret. I think it was just too much stuff that needed to be kept secret. What I'm saying is, I'm giving the staff the benefit of the doubt. Just please ask for input whenever you can on URPG issues that allow it. Whether the surprising amount of secrets was somebody's fault or not, you still have to keep the goodwill of the rest of the URPG. I sound like I'm rambling here; idk it's too late in the night for me to make sense out of this post on my own. Figure it out XD

[Dinobot]

Way to quote the thing that Chainy posted and make it seem like I posted it. :s

Tl;dr to everyone at the moment - will do so after school.

Why make a post to tell us you're going to post later nublet.

[CommBA]

I didn't even know there was a staff board until this whole thing blew up.

[Monbrey]

I can summarise the majority of Staff Forum posts in a pretty short list:

• "Can a Mod sticky this please?"
• "Hey, is this change is a good idea?/Do you mind if I change this?"
• "Do you think this is a cool new event/feature/idea?"
  If the general consensus is yes, next thing we do is either announce it to you all, or discuss the idea with members we think would be interested.
• "Should we run *insert auction/event here* and who will host it?"
• "Member X is doing this wrong/cheating/etc, what should we do?"
  Obviously this is what we can't share and I don't think anyone has disputed this.

I can understand the point that we could discuss the new events/ideas more openly, but for the most part it works better if we don't. Ever heard the phrase "Too many cooks spoil the broth."? It's pretty applicable here. Even amongst the small group of Officials/Mods we have, we often find ourselves disagreeing on what the best way to do something is, or having too many ideas for a specific event or feature. In the end, it's fairly simple to work out the best options and then announce whatever we decided to all of you guys.
Instead, I want you to think about what happens if we have another 20 people pitching ideas for an event. In some cases this could produce some good ideas. But more often we'd get the same sort of discussion that happens on AIM when people know there's an event coming. "The prize should be/you should auction this Pokemon!" or "Who cares, no-one does contests". There becomes too many voices to handle, not all of them constructive in the first place.

If you have an idea, tell one of us, and we'll let the others know. Tournament ideas are generally the most popular. If we think it's feasible to run, next thing you know you'll probably be running a tournament with a staff member's assistance.

As I said in the address when TE was banned, we are always open to suggestions and discussion. If you ask about something I'm free to speak about, then you'll probably get a straight answer from me. And before someone draws a comparison to me brushing TE off as spreading rumours, I've already addressed that.

He WAS spreading rumours.

[Ataro]

EDIT: Also, I disagree with Ketamine's banning. I remember Haze used to openly admit to leaking from the staff boards, yet he went by unpunished. Why should the associate of a 'corrupt' official receive a permanent ban when a full on 'corrupt' official received nothing?

The 'full on corrupt official' hasn't recieved anything yet.

Adding on; the difference between TE and Haze was that TE received the 'information' from this someone and decided to spread it around to gain attention. When confronted, he lied repeatedly and had a complete lack of disrespect for the Staff whom had confronted him courteously, whereas Haze had simply leaked.

We probably wouldn't even have banned him (at all/for that long) if he had just came clean from the start, instead of the repetitive lies (regardless of whether he knew who was it that leaked it to him) and the complete disrespect.

With that being said, I agree completely that if you guys (the members of the URPG) really feel that an update thread is necessary, it really isn't any trouble at all to create a thread and fill it with updates. Of course, like what others had already said, the issue of whether it's really necessary would be a consideration that needs to be taken. I also agree that you're right about how we should have just briefly announced that we might be having a potential expansion.

If we're truly going to exercise and finally practice openness, we're going to have to consider the only appropriate topics that should remain in Staff, and how others would just go into Trainer's Court. I think part of the dilemma that most of us might be having is because of how we start a discussion, for perhaps, a new Tournament idea that will be put in place. Then along with some of the useful comments and opinions, the thread will also be filled with random and useless comments (not directing towards anyone in particular). It then becomes sort of annoying when you're putting out an idea, and it gets unnecessarily long and discussed back and forth, while the pages are being filled with useful comments and random and unproductive one-liners.

[We Taste Pies...]

Anyway, what I think time after time you fail to understand is that there really isn't much going on in the staff boards. I would really appreciate if you would stop attacking us with this issue, because I'm a mod, I know better, quit bitching. I know better because I know what the contents of the staff boards are and you do not. What you fail to see is the staff's point of view in this argument. You have repeatedly played the victim, while you fail to give any good reason why this is a "problem". If you would like to be taken more seriously, perhaps gather some kind of support among other members, then talk to us, instead of posting an inflammatory statement about how you assume we're going to pass this off as nonsense without reading it. We are certainly going to read it first before we realize its nonsense

EDIT: I would apologize for my slightly rude rhetoric, but this:


If all you are going to say is something along the lines of "I'm a mod, I know better, quit bitching", kindly gtfo.

Made it quite clear that you did not want an entirely civil discussion, and so, you shall not be granted one.

You just proved his statement true. He made a thread in Trainer's Court to bring up an issue, following protocol. What do you, a mod, do in response? Tell him that this is stupid and that you don't take him seriously.

This isn't the first time he has brought this up. What I continue to fail to see each time he brings it up is the problem here. His main argument is that the URPG as a whole had no input whatsoever. Although I personally don't agree with that, I could understand how he might feel that way IF he had an exmaple of where the staff did/released something he had a serious problem with. He has mentioned the TE incident in the General Chat thread, while at the same time, admitting to not reading the thread about his ban beforehand. His other complaint was the staff's denial of TPW which, as Chainy already mentioned, we are not actually aware of happening and has yet to have been documented.

Essentially, and I believe I speak for the whole staff when I say this, I am a bit annoyed that he is constantly rallying against myself and the staff, accusing of us keeping things from the URPG, when he has no basis for this argument. I'm also annoyed how he claims to not be the only one bothered by this supposed, "problem", but I have yet to see anyone other than yourself, who is inactive, to post in his support. I'd hardly call two people public outcry. In addition, I'm downright pissed off that he has the nerve to put that statement in his first post, as if we our heads are so far up our asses that we would respond with an argument as simple and backwards as "We are the staff, so stfu."

EDIT:

Putting aside my rage for a moment, I'd also like to point out that, even before the creation of this thread, no staff member opposed keeping the URPG more informed. Some of us didn't see the point of a weekly update thread though. There is not nearly enough going on to justify an entire thread for staff updates. We could just occasionally post a message here or there in the General Chat thread.

[KidBeano]

Anyway, what I think time after time you fail to understand is that there really isn't much going on in the staff boards. I would really appreciate if you would stop attacking us with this issue, because I'm a mod, I know better, quit bitching. I know better because I know what the contents of the staff boards are and you do not. What you fail to see is the staff's point of view in this argument. You have repeatedly played the victim, while you fail to give any good reason why this is a "problem". If you would like to be taken more seriously, perhaps gather some kind of support among other members, then talk to us, instead of posting an inflammatory statement about how you assume we're going to pass this off as nonsense without reading it. We are certainly going to read it first before we realize its nonsense

EDIT: I would apologize for my slightly rude rhetoric, but this:


If all you are going to say is something along the lines of "I'm a mod, I know better, quit bitching", kindly gtfo.

Made it quite clear that you did not want an entirely civil discussion, and so, you shall not be granted one.

You just proved his statement true. He made a thread in Trainer's Court to bring up an issue, following protocol. What do you, a mod, do in response? Tell him that this is stupid and that you don't take him seriously.

This isn't the first time he has brought this up. What I continue to fail to see each time he brings it up is the problem here. His main argument is that the URPG as a whole had no input whatsoever. Although I personally don't agree with that, I could understand how he might feel that way IF he had an exmaple of where the staff did/released something he had a serious problem with. He has mentioned the TE incident in the General Chat thread, while at the same time, admitting to not reading the thread about his ban beforehand. His other complaint was the staff's denial of TPW which, as Chainy already mentioned, we are not actually aware of happening and has yet to have been documented.

Essentially, and I believe I speak for the whole staff when I say this, I am a bit annoyed that he is constantly rallying against myself and the staff, accusing of us keeping things from the URPG, when he has no basis for this argument. I'm also annoyed how he claims to not be the only one bothered by this supposed, "problem", but I have yet to see anyone other than yourself, who is inactive, to post in his support. I'd hardly call two people public outcry. In addition, I'm downright pissed off that he has the nerve to put that statement in his first post, as if we our heads are so far up our asses that we would respond with an argument as simple and backwards as "We are the staff, so stfu."

EDIT:

Putting aside my rage for a moment, I'd also like to point out that, even before the creation of this thread, no staff member opposed keeping the URPG more informed. Some of us didn't see the point of a weekly update thread though. There is not nearly enough going on to justify an entire thread for staff updates. We could just occasionally post a message here or there in the General Chat thread.

Oh, sorry, I posted in my first post that I 'missed the drama'. That must mean that I never read the thread, and will never read the thread from that point onwards. Logic used at its best right there.

:/

I never said I hadn't read the thread. I have read the thread, I'll have you know. I just feel that since leaking from the staff boards is not an offence (which you have undeniably proved by not punishing Haze), I question what the huge thing was with trying to find the culprit in the first place. Yes, ok, TE was uncooperative and rude, and should have some form of punishment, but since what he was hiding wasn't actually punishable by URPG rules, it just leaves a lot to be questioned. But, this isn't what this thread is about, so I would rather it not be brought up here.

My problem? Okay. Let's get hypothetical. Imagine the leaks had never happened, and you'd announced the expansion with all the grandeur that you had anticipated, announcing that TPW had accepted us, and we were all set to expand, we just needed to get a few things straight. Now, imagine you were met with uproar and anger from everyone, because they didn't want to go to TPW, or because feelings had changed about an expansion since the previous thread. You have two options:

1. Continue with the expansion (not a good idea)
2. Cancel the expansion and have to tell TPW that the URPG members did not feel their forum was appropriate. (Because that doesn't make us look like elitist jerks, and doesn't make TPW look stupid by having to backtrack and retract something from their round-up thread.)

So, in one short sentence, my problem is that the expansion information was held from us for such a time, that by the time it was announced, turning back would be detrimental if it all blew up in your face.

About that statement, it was due to this post that I said it. Y'know, the one where Stinky's head is so far up his ass that he responded with an argument as simple and backwards as "We are the staff, so stfu". Believe it or not, I'm not some brat who blurts out accusations and assumes all the staff are against me. I'm just under the impression that if I was to act that way to mod, I'd most likely be punished (similar to TE, perhaps?). Yet, when Stinky acts that way to me, the tables are turned.

I also pointed out in this post senior members who shared my opinion, including Pidge himself. Also, T_T said that in retrospect, being a little more out about it wouldn't have hurt, and Ataro, in the very post above yours, says he feels it should've been at least mentioned.

The whole "no basis for saying we're hiding things" - Monbrey's post implies that TE is wrong about the expansion. Yes, ok, I thought it was more than it was when I first made this thread, and on looking back, realised my error, but the fact still stands that Chainy's claiming "You can talk to mods", yet it seems more like "You can talk to mods, but don't expect a reply". Seriously, the question I have repeatedly asked is how would mentioning (key word right there - NOT explaining/detailing/announcing) the expansion have been detrimental to its progress?. That's the main question I would like you to answer, if nothing else.

Also, to the people complaining about this topic popping up - that's the reason I took it out of URPG Chat and into the Trainer's Court. No-one's forcing you to read it. If you don't want to, don't.

[LS the Door Mat]

We all know about Chain requesting stickys xDDDDDDddddd

jk tho

Also, could it be because the mods are so proud and think theyre so mighty that they think the rest of us are scum!?!?!

omg discuss

[Monbrey]

[MENTION=40900]LS the Door Mat[/MENTION]

You're not even remotely constructive and the discussion, although heated, was going well. Don't post just to be inflammatory.

[MENTION=34795]PichuBoy[/MENTION]

I've always had a very strong dislike for hypothetical arguments. They serve no real purpose. You're arguing about the POSSIBILITY of something happening that DIDN'T happen, and I fail to see in any way how that provides a factual basis for you point.

Hypothetically, a meteor could be knocked off course and crash into the planet tomorrow, killing all of us. And then we'll have missed our chance to announce the TPW expansion! Woe is us, why didn't we tell everyone sooner!

I realise that yes, this is an over-exaggeration and ridiculous example. I also realise that we could probably be accused of the same - not releasing the information immediately for fear of members not being happy or causing problems, and these are hypothetical situations also. The difference between a hypothetical future event is that we don't yet know what will happen, and we attempt to make our best judgement based on more than one possible situation. A hypothetical past event has already been conclusively proven by that pesky little reality thing NOT to have happened - hence it's not much use in an argument.

As for my post "implying he was wrong", he was. There's no double expansion. We have nothing in place to facilitate a move to GTS+ at all at the moment. We agreed we should probably try there next, and that was it. And thanks to him and those working with him, we currently have no focus on moving to TPW either.

Now for that super important question you put in bold.

How would mentioning (key word right there - NOT explaining/detailing/announcing) the expansion have been detrimental to its progress?

I will admit that mentioning the expansion would probably not have been detrimental. I also don't think it would have been beneficial. And most of all, I'd like to point out that if it weren't for people disrespecting our privacy and breaking the rules, then this shitstorm never would have happened. And you would have all found out about TPW in a nice little announcement that you so very strongly insist on having. Since you found out another way, the whole argument seems to be "OMG WHY DIDN'T THEY ANNOUNCE IT ALREADY!"

I'm not going to definitively state that we know better because we're the staff and we get every decision. But we got the positions for a reason, and we continue to do what we THINK is right. I'm sorry you don't agree. The majority has always seemed pretty satisfied though.

[LS the Door Mat]

[MENTION=40900]LS the Door Mat[/MENTION]

You're not even remotely constructive and the discussion, although heated, was going well. Don't post just to be inflammatory.


Oh Ok.

I'm sorry you don't agree. The majority has always seemed pretty satisfied though.

If you didn't notice, the "majority" of the urpg members are basically (not sure if I can say this) dick riders. They don't have a sense of what is going on and just listen to the "leaders" and think they're 100% right 100% of the time because they don't know better.

Honestly, Staff boards or not, it really doesn't matter. The expansion should have been discussed openly and probably shouldve had a poll to see if the majority is willing to expand or not. It's not about why did they not announce it. It's more of just "Why did we have to find out about it this way? Why couldn't they just make a thread and see the opinions of the majority?"

So, basically, all that needs to be done, is even though you guys are mods and officials and whatever shit. You don't have the right to make all the decisions by yourself. Talk to people, the actual URPGers, find out what they think about the topic and THEN talk about what you're going to do about it in the mod boards. Aren't most of the current mods/officials not very active anyway? So, get the opinions of those who are actually on everyday...

sry if i was inflammatory in this post

[KidBeano]

[MENTION=40900]LS the Door Mat[/MENTION]

You're not even remotely constructive and the discussion, although heated, was going well. Don't post just to be inflammatory.

[MENTION=34795]PichuBoy[/MENTION]

I've always had a very strong dislike for hypothetical arguments. They serve no real purpose. You're arguing about the POSSIBILITY of something happening that DIDN'T happen, and I fail to see in any way how that provides a factual basis for you point.

Hypothetically, a meteor could be knocked off course and crash into the planet tomorrow, killing all of us. And then we'll have missed our chance to announce the TPW expansion! Woe is us, why didn't we tell everyone sooner!

I realise that yes, this is an over-exaggeration and ridiculous example. I also realise that we could probably be accused of the same - not releasing the information immediately for fear of members not being happy or causing problems, and these are hypothetical situations also. The difference between a hypothetical future event is that we don't yet know what will happen, and we attempt to make our best judgement based on more than one possible situation. A hypothetical past event has already been conclusively proven by that pesky little reality thing NOT to have happened - hence it's not much use in an argument.

As for my post "implying he was wrong", he was. There's no double expansion. We have nothing in place to facilitate a move to GTS+ at all at the moment. We agreed we should probably try there next, and that was it. And thanks to him and those working with him, we currently have no focus on moving to TPW either.

Now for that super important question you put in bold.

How would mentioning (key word right there - NOT explaining/detailing/announcing) the expansion have been detrimental to its progress?

I will admit that mentioning the expansion would probably not have been detrimental. I also don't think it would have been beneficial. And most of all, I'd like to point out that if it weren't for people disrespecting our privacy and breaking the rules, then this shitstorm never would have happened. And you would have all found out about TPW in a nice little announcement that you so very strongly insist on having. Since you found out another way, the whole argument seems to be "OMG WHY DIDN'T THEY ANNOUNCE IT ALREADY!"

I'm not going to definitively state that we know better because we're the staff and we get every decision. But we got the positions for a reason, and we continue to do what we THINK is right. I'm sorry you don't agree. The majority has always seemed pretty satisfied though.

My point with the hypothetical situation was that, had that been the case, both possibilities of continuing with and backtracking on the expansion would've been detrimental. All it would then take is for another forum to have a look, see the expansion announcement and think "Huh, I wonder why that didn't go ahead", contact TPW and have our reputation tarnished. While I admit, yes, that would not have happened, since the majority agrees with the expansion, it wasn't concrete that that's what would've happened at the time, and so it was risky.

We can read. If you, after discussing among the staff, come to the opinion you think TPW is suitable, then you posted saying "Ok, we're thinking of expanding with TPW. Don't go bombarding them, yet, since nothing's set in stone", I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have the entire URPG spamming the other forum as some people are making out would happen.

Nice job dismissing hypothetical arguments, and then putting across a hypothetical situation and what my reaction would have been. Just because you don't say 'hypothetical', doesn't make it not hypothetical. I would have the exact same opinion, because, y'know, one of my points is the whole "too late to backtrack" thing.

And LS just summed up pretty much my entire side in one paragraph.

Also, this is from a conversation with someone. Just something to stew on. (These are my personal feelings, not hard fact or anything. Please don't go saying "You said this and are making us out to be bad people" - this is just what the situation SEEMS to be to me)

[18:53:39] magickid930: Yeah, because they're always like "You can talk to us and we're always open to suggestions and feedback", yet as soon as the feedback isn't what they want to hear, it all changes
[18:54:24] magickid930: The only reason they've given me for not implementing a reports thread is it wouldn't be that active, but an inactive report thread with updates when they need be > no report thread

[ChainReaction01]

We asked you guys. Here is proof.

I'm starting to wonder if this has a point any more. Let's put it out there openly: you guys seem to think that the Staff is too secretive, and the 95% disagree. What would you like us to do to try and fix this supposed problem? What do you think is the perfect outcome from this?

[LS the Door Mat]

We asked you guys. Here is proof.

I'm starting to wonder if this has a point any more. Let's put it out there openly: you guys seem to think that the Staff is too secretive, and the 95% disagree. What would you like us to do to try and fix this supposed problem? What do you think is the perfect outcome from this?

1) That was in JULY! It's been too long without talk about it. As soon as you found a forum that you liked to have settled in, a new thread should have been made.

2) That wasn't anything specific. There's a difference about expanding in general, and expanding to a specific forum.

3) There's nothing you can do to "fix" the problem anymore. Just next time a topic that could affect the entire URPG comes up, bring it up to those that matter, not the 70% of officials and mods that don't battle or barely sign on.