Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, etc.

[Chiplet]

That can work both ways, because Dragonite had type disadvantage against Mamoswine but it didn't stopped him from winning.

The thing is though, it can't. We already knew that Dragonite possessed immense power from its battle with Georgia's most powerful Pokémon, Beartic, as well as it taking on all of those attacks in the episode it got caught by Iris. Not to mention that it also went toe-to-toe with a Hydreigon.

Blaziken, Gyarados and Mamoswine might all three be around the same level, but Dragonite is nearly in a completely different league. After all, it is a fully evolved Dragon-type.

And im not sure how its bad excuse when its obvious how May and Misty are more familiar with real, trainer battles than Dawn was making it a given how their pokemon would be more focused on raw strength and strategy we see from trainers in general.

If you ask me, Dawn went pretty much by raw strength in this battle against Dragonite, didn't she? So, no, I don't really follow you there. Besides, Dawn made it to the final round in Grand Festival, advancing through more Contest Battles than May, and as well did a better job than May. I really fail to see your point here, as Dawn could just be the most battle-active girl out there, so no.

We can see that when Ash and Drayden faced Iris and Dragonite using different strategy and combination of attacks than Dawn prior to that did, having higher success as result of that.

Ash didn't use a strategy. He took advantage of the battle when Dragonite went berserk, not listening to Iris anymore, thus being able to easily beat Dragonite. And Drayden, he's a Gym Leader, and he also went pretty much by raw strength as Mamoswine did in their battle, but Druddigon is too way too strong.

Especially when taking in account their fighting abilities with Gyarados and Blaziken showing more strength and resistance in battles from what i saw than Mamoswine did. Something i counted in examples which were ignored.

I watn you to take a look at the Sinnoh Grand Festival, the battle Dawn had with Ursula. Did you see all of those Shadow Balls that Mamoswine was hit by? And all of those other attacks too? He got hit by a LOT of them, and yet he managed to stand up. Gyarados and Blaziken will definitely not beat Mamoswine there, especially considering how little we've seen from the both of them. Besides, Blaziken almost lost to a Grass-type Pokémon, who Ash even received later than when May got her Torchic. And Gyarados? No, I've seen too little from him to even judge, but I'm guessing that he's about a regular Gyarados, just like the one Pikachu beat in the battle against Wake.

[pokemonsquared]

I have yet to see a single valid reason as to how either May or Misty could stand up to dragonite. we already know dawn can't do it.

For one most of the arguments center around "I like them more" as the base which automatically discredits them.

Secondly dragonite has the type advantage over pretty much verything on both teams. Gyarados as qwell as all of misty's team dies to thunderpunch. May's team is all taken out by either a SE move or dragon rush and if mamoswine cannot survive it then no way in hell is blaziken or munchlax gonna do it.

Thirdly May's strength is particular is way overexaggerated. So what if she has blaziken and venusaur? evolution doesn't guarantee power and "tying" with a sceptile is in no way an accurate indicator of power. Also All gyarados dies fast to electricity, even clair's a vastly superior gym leader to misty. "A stronger spirit" or whatever bullshit term these fans might want to pull means nothing as you can;t measure it objectively. Also iris doesn;t have spirit? she has the most of any of the girls.

[Masurao]

Honestly, Iris is the only companion I could see with Dragonite, and Excadrill putting up a decent fight against Ash's powerhouse reserves, the likes of Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape, Snorlax, etc. I haven't really gotten that feel with any other one of the main cast members.

[Aloasa]

you know just because someone has cool pokemon it doesn't mean that they are the best

[pokemonsquared]

you know just because someone has cool pokemon it doesn't mean that they are the best

And that is what may fans need to get into their head.

[Sweenix]

May and it's not even close, don't know why anyone mentioned iris, she's a weak trainer with strong pokemon

May is weak compared to iris. Dragonite alone can take down every member of her team.

Blaziken, venusaur.. Blastoise?? glaceon? munchlax/snorlax?

i don't think so

[pokemonsquared]

May and it's not even close, don't know why anyone mentioned iris, she's a weak trainer with strong pokemon

May is weak compared to iris. Dragonite alone can take down every member of her team.

Blaziken, venusaur.. Blastoise?? glaceon? munchlax/snorlax?

i don't think so

Dragon rush
flamethrower
Thunderpunch
Lolicetype
Dragon rush

Done.

[Sweenix]

May and it's not even close, don't know why anyone mentioned iris, she's a weak trainer with strong pokemon

May is weak compared to iris. Dragonite alone can take down every member of her team.

Blaziken, venusaur.. Blastoise?? glaceon? munchlax/snorlax?

i don't think so

Dragon rush
flamethrower
Thunderpunch
Lolicetype
Dragon rush

Done.

yet that dragonite you speak so highly off, got wasted by ash's krokodile and drayden druddigan :P

Iris's dragonite wouldn't even get passed blaziken let alone the rest of her team.

[pokemonsquared]

Lol Dragonite would destroy blaziken. Blaziken hasn't even gotten any real wins on screen ever. Neither has venusaur or wartortle or any of may's pokemon of whom you spoke highly.

[Aloasa]

you know just because someone has cool pokemon it doesn't mean that they are the best

And that is what may fans need to get into their head.

touche

[pokemon fan 132]

The thing is though, it can't. We already knew that Dragonite possessed immense power from its battle with Georgia's most powerful Pokémon, Beartic, as well as it taking on all of those attacks in the episode it got caught by Iris. Not to mention that it also went toe-to-toe with a Hydreigon.

Blaziken, Gyarados and Mamoswine might all three be around the same level, but Dragonite is nearly in a completely different league. After all, it is a fully evolved Dragon-type.

Blaziken and Gyarados are fully evolved fire and water types so im not sure what your trying to point out out with this.

Are you seriously going to play on type advantage card? If there is something which pokemon anime for last 15 years taught us is how type advantage doesn't matter much at all. There were plenty of trainers which in inferior position very often won battles or even dominated because of using better strategy and outsmarting opponent, learning how to counter opposing attacks turning situation in their favor, because their pokemon were well trained and experienced etc.

Also dragon doesn't have huge advantage over fire and water like ice has toward dragon, with Dragonite not having problem defeating pokemon despite having 4x weakness to ice attacks.

So no argument how Dragonite couldn't be defeated by Blaziken and Gyarados because of type advantage doesn't hold much weight to me at all.

If you ask me, Dawn went pretty much by raw strength in this battle against Dragonite, didn't she? So, no, I don't really follow you there. Besides, Dawn made it to the final round in Grand Festival, advancing through more Contest Battles than May, and as well did a better job than May. I really fail to see your point here, as Dawn could just be the most battle-active girl out there, so no.

Irrelevant to discussion. Dawn making further in GF has nothing to do with her trainer abilities nor you can equalize coordinator and trainer battling style. Coordinator battles focus more on making your attacks look pretty and performing them in most elegant manner, being won through points without necessarily knocking down opposing side. On other hand in trainer battles focus was more concentrated on strength of pokemon itself and how resistant and powerful he is being won through strategy and direct confrontation.

Difference between May and Dawn is that May battling style was more raw and straightforward making her contest battle rounds look similar to trainer battles absorbing such approach through Ash mentorship, as opposite to Dawn whose focal point was more concentrated on appeals and winning battles through glamorous performance rather than strength of pokemon themselves.
Something she was often called out as one of her biggest flaws not finding right balance between strength and elegance in her battle style.

We can clearly see that in battles with Combusken, Bulbasaur, Squirtle etc and from what i saw from Blaziken when battling Ash and in restaurant tag battle he showed bigger strength and higher battle abilities than Dawn Mamoswine if you ask me did with his power mainly coming through teamwork rather than strength of himself .

As battler May showed more skill than Dawn did if you ask me, and to be honest Dawn had easier competition to go against in Sinnoh GF than May did in Hoenn and Kanto.

Ash didn't use a strategy. He took advantage of the battle when Dragonite went berserk, not listening to Iris anymore, thus being able to easily beat Dragonite. And Drayden, he's a Gym Leader, and he also went pretty much by raw strength as Mamoswine did in their battle, but Druddigon is too way too strong.

Before Dragonite went berserk Ash was using strategy with Krokorok using combination of evade and counterattack through dig and crunch, stone edge which was pretty successful until Dragonite size and bigger strength started to take its toll on alligator.

And Drayden being gym leader is moot point, because Misty is gym leader too.

I watn you to take a look at the Sinnoh Grand Festival, the battle Dawn had with Ursula. Did you see all of those Shadow Balls that Mamoswine was hit by? And all of those other attacks too? He got hit by a LOT of them, and yet he managed to stand up. Gyarados and Blaziken will definitely not beat Mamoswine there, especially considering how little we've seen from the both of them. Besides, Blaziken almost lost to a Grass-type Pokémon, who Ash even received later than when May got her Torchic. And Gyarados? No, I've seen too little from him to even judge, but I'm guessing that he's about a regular Gyarados, just like the one Pikachu beat in the battle against Wake.

Shadow ball as attack itself has medium strength so its not that surprising that Mamoswine resist it, although amount of attacks he received still standing was pretty unbelievable and forced way to write a battle. And im not sure how enduring all those hits prove anything of Gyarados and Blaziken not having chance against Dragonite, when thy showed bigger strength than Mamoswine did during his battle against Dragonite.

Problem with Mamoswine is that most of its success came from double battles when he was combining attacks with other Dawn pokemon like Pachirisu and Cyndaquil covering flaws between themselves turning it to advantage, and that works great for contests. But in trainer battles raw strength is more required and because of lack of experience Mamoswine got from not participating in more straightforward real battles this reflected on his strength. We can notice that when despite type advantage his techniques barely had much effect on Dragonite, while Ash Krookodile in comparison knock it out with few bites and stone edges which are much less effective than ice techniques on dragons.

Enduring all those hits doesn't prove anything, because when comparing Mamoswine battling abilities with Blaziken and Gyarados he didn't leave impression of being as powerful as they are.

Fact that May Blaziken was on tie with Sceptile which defeated not just any but legendary pokemon, as well Gyarados blocking all three Tentacruel attacks with ease slicing through three hydropumps with hyperbeam like knife through butter defeating them with no trouble males me inclined to believe how they would have greater success when battling Dragonite than Mamoswine did.

With May because she is more used to trainer battles applying such approach in her coordinator style giving her certain up hand, and Misty is self explanatory since Gyarados is receiving massive amount of experience through training and battles on daily basis at gym and outside it(she shows to take it whenever she travels outside) being more adapt to straightforward clashes you can expect when going against trainer than Mamoswine did.

Im sorry but i fail to see what makes Iris superior as trainer to May and Misty at all, when they showed just as much skill, arguably even more during their run and afterwards in cameos.

I have yet to see a single valid reason as to how either May or Misty could stand up to dragonite. we already know dawn can't do it.

For one most of the arguments center around "I like them more" as the base which automatically discredits them.

And i would like to see at least one believable reason which would support theory how Iris is stronger than any other Ash companion?

What, she has strong dragon type? Having powerful pokemon doesn't mean its trainer possess same amount of skill to match its strength and extract it to full potential. Should we than say same thing about Jessie or James, and how they would be among strongest trainers if they were given Dragonite?

Having powerful pokemon is just a tool, it depends on trainer knowledge and abilities if he would be able to use him to full potential.

Quite frankly so far Iris didn't showed any extraordinary strategy and complex combinations which would make me think how she is more skilled than May or Misty are.

Especially when most battles so far Dragonite won on its own, rather than trainer guidance.

Way i see it if not stronger i view May and Misty just as powerful as Iris is. I would probably include Brock there too, if he trained and battle more.

Secondly dragonite has the type advantage over pretty much verything on both teams. Gyarados as qwell as all of misty's team dies to thunderpunch. May's team is all taken out by either a SE move or dragon rush and if mamoswine cannot survive it then no way in hell is blaziken or munchlax gonna do it.

That's rather invalid argument to me. Just because Dragonite defeated Mamoswine, it doesn't mean same outcome would happen with Blaziken and Gyarados.

Also All gyarados dies fast to electricity, even clair's a vastly superior gym leader to misty. "A stronger spirit" or whatever bullshit term these fans might want to pull means nothing as you can;t measure it objectively. Also iris doesn;t have spirit? she has the most of any of the girls.

Last time i checked it took more than one electric attack to knock down any Gyarados we encountered so far in anime, they aren't that weak that simple thunder would defeat them. And there always exist counter moves like dragon breath and protect to neutralize such attacks. Not to mention there is more to battle than type advantage and base stats with Ash and several trainers in series showing how unlike in games pokemon in inferior position can win battle through better strategy, smart use of attacks and willpower.

Spirit can mean a lot in battles. How many times did we saw Ash Growyle, Pikachu or Charizard being on edge of defeat managing to resist even most powerful attacks and continue battling to everyone surprise turning match in their favor? I remember several trainers( like Brawley for example) being astounded when they would get up after attack which should knock them down complimenting on incredible battle spirit his pokemon possess.

Speaking of girls i remember Misty showing just as much battling spirit like Ash never giving up, and May and Dawn having high motivations and desires. So im not sure if can agree with theory how Iris has more spirit/ motivation than other girls do.

When comparing Iris team to May or Misty maybe its just me but when i see Venusaur, Glaceon, Wartortle etc on paper it laves impression of having more balanced and stronger team at this point. Same applies to Misty when i take a look at Starmie(on of best pokemon in games), Politoad which is equivalent in strength to Poliwrath and Corsola. Psyduck is hit or miss; without headache its useless, but with it it can knock down most of pokemon with one attack.

Honestly, Iris is the only companion I could see with Dragonite, and Excadrill putting up a decent fight against Ash's powerhouse reserves, the likes of Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape, Snorlax, etc. I haven't really gotten that feel with any other one of the main cast members.

Well May Blaziken was able to be on pair with Sceptile, and im pretty sure out of Misty pokemon at least Gyarados would be able to hold its own having upper hand against some.

[Sling]

opens poll

sees many options that shouldn't even exist

clicks "Iris"

waits for someone to make a backhanded comment about Misty/May being better without any real backup~

[Chiplet]

Blaziken and Gyarados are fully evolved fire and water types so im not sure what your trying to point out out with this.

They are also part fighting and flying. All of those typings have rather little effect on a Dragon/Flying-type. See?

Are you seriously going to play on type advantage card?

Obviously? What else am I supposed to go on with the fact that this is Pokémon? What other logical ways are there? Experience? Well, Dragonite pretty wins on that part too.

If there is something which pokemon anime for last 15 years taught us is how type advantage doesn't matter much at all. There were plenty of trainers which in inferior position very often won battles or even dominated because of using better strategy and outsmarting opponent, learning how to counter opposing attacks turning situation in their favor, because their pokemon were well trained and experienced etc.

When you're speculating, type-advantage is an important fact that you'll have to take in consideration. Please.

Also dragon doesn't have huge advantage over fire and water like ice has toward dragon, with Dragonite not having problem defeating pokemon despite having 4x weakness to ice attacks.

Actually, you're wrong. It's about the same different. Gyarados water/flying type moves, which are the strongest moves for its typing, won't have much effect on Dragonite, while the same goes for Blaziken's fighting/fire type moves, while most of Dragonite moves have normal effect or even super effect. In the battle against Mamoswine, Dragonite's Dragon type moves would have normal effect, while Mamoswine's Ice-type moves would have super effect, it's pretty much the same thing but just the opposite.

Irrelevant to discussion.

Hahahaha. What?

[QUOE]Dawn making further in GF has nothing to do with her trainer abilities nor you can equalize coordinator and trainer battling style. Coordinator battles focus more on making your attacks look pretty and performing them in most elegant manner, being won through points without necessarily knocking down opposing side. On other hand in trainer battles focus was more concentrated on strength of pokemon itself and how resistant and powerful he is being won through strategy and direct confrontation.[/QUOTE]

That doesn't change the fact that Dawn actually knocked out lots of her opponents during her Contest Battles. Your argument to make May seem ''stronger'' really fails IMO. I might consider Dawn to be slightly weaker, but that's just barely. May isn't much of a better battler than Dawn, and the fact that Dawn has participated in more battles than May doesn't really help your argument.

We can clearly see that in battles with Combusken, Bulbasaur, Squirtle etc and from what i saw from Blaziken when battling Ash and in restaurant tag battle he showed bigger strength and higher battle abilities than Dawn Mamoswine if you ask me did with his power mainly coming through teamwork rather than strength of himself.

If Blaziken was all that powerful, it should've been able to defeat Ash's Sceptile. After all, Blaziken had belonged into May's possession longer than Ash's Sceptile, not to mention the type-advantage (with only Sceptile Slam having somewhat effect on it). Mamoswine, Piplup and Togekiss have all proved to be powerful in their own ways, and are definitely not inferior in any ways to May's Pokémon. Especially not as we've not even seen her Venusaur in action, and barely her Blaziken either.

As battler May showed more skill than Dawn did if you ask me, and to be honest Dawn had easier competition to go against in Sinnoh GF than May did in Hoenn and Kanto.

That's just ridiculous.

Before Dragonite went berserk Ash was using strategy with Krokorok using combination of evade and counterattack through dig and crunch, stone edge which was pretty successful until Dragonite size and bigger strength started to take its toll on alligator.

Yes, but would it lead to victory? No. He won because of the fact that Dragonite went berserk, and then used rather open attacks.

And Drayden being gym leader is moot point, because Misty is gym leader too.

Drayden is probably Unova's strongest Gym Leader, at least in the animé, and he uses Dragon-types. Misty uses Water-types, and she's most certainly not the strongest Gym Leader in Kanto, at least not from what I've seen, and how she's doing now is impossible to tell.

Shadow ball as attack itself has medium strength so its not that surprising that Mamoswine resist it, although amount of attacks he received still standing was pretty unbelievable and forced way to write a battle.

Oh please, you could pretty much say that about any move, so that's a very poor excuse. And the same goes for the ''forced way to write'', as that could work both ways.

And im not sure how enduring all those hits prove anything of Gyarados and Blaziken not having chance against Dragonite, when thy showed bigger strength than Mamoswine did during his battle against Dragonite.

Because, as I've said, the fact that we've barely seen anything from the two clearly makes Mamoswine the winner in my eyes. Neither Gyarados nor Blaziken has made such a huge impression on me, because they never received the remark of being close to über, which Dragonite did.

We can notice that when despite type advantage his techniques barely had much effect on Dragonite, while Ash Krookodile in comparison knock it out with few bites and stone edges which are much less effective than ice techniques on dragons.

Yet they are effective, especially as the Pokémon isn't under controll. Simple logic.

Enduring all those hits doesn't prove anything, because when comparing Mamoswine battling abilities with Blaziken and Gyarados he didn't leave impression of being as powerful as they are.

Beating three Tentacruel by those three pathetic Trainers doesn't really make him seem powerful in my eyes, and a Flamethrower against a Shedidja? No.

Tying with a Sceptile and having a hard time against a Girafarig who didn't even use Psychic moves? No.

Taking Ice-type attacks (who have a 4x advantage) like they were nothing and nearly going toe-to-toe with legendaries? Yes.

Fact that May Blaziken was on tie with Sceptile which defeated not just any but legendary pokemon

After that Darkrai had battled three other Pokémon....?

as well Gyarados blocking all three Tentacruel attacks with ease slicing through three hydropumps with hyperbeam like knife through butter defeating them with no trouble males me inclined to believe how they would have greater success when battling Dragonite than Mamoswine did.

If those three Tentacruel had belonged to any other Trainer, then maybe. :p

Im sorry but i fail to see what makes Iris superior as trainer to May and Misty at all, when they showed just as much skill, arguably even more during their run and afterwards in cameos.

It's because Iris possess stronger Pokémon than they, and she received those Pokémon for a reason to, because in the games she's a Champion, the strongest Trainer in the region, and naturally the writers wanted to take that fact into consideration by giving her Dragonite. If the writers would have her battle either of those two, they'd surely make her win, because Iris is supposed to be considered a strong Pokémon Trainer. Has it been done well? Not necessarily, but that doesn't change the fact with what her characters is leading to.

[Masurao]

But would it have lead to victory? No.

We can't really say who would have won if Dragonite didn't go berserk. Not until Dragonite and Krokodile have a proper battle.

[Chiplet]

But would it have lead to victory? No.

We can't really say who would have won if Dragonite didn't go berserk. Not until Dragonite and Krokodile have a proper battle.

It's rather obvious, considering how Iris pretty much countered that strategy the second time Ash used it.