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  1. #91
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    In regards to Johto trying to stay too closely to Kanto....why did they also continue Jigglypuff into Johto?

    By the end of Orange we had seen Jiggly so much that you'd think they would wrap its character up. Instead Jiggly stays for all of Johto as well. Seemed kind of pointless...besides getting its last appearance in the show during early AG.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Thaaaaaaat being said... there's a lot of bad in Johto too. It became apparent to me that in Johto, Misty and Brock had no more substance and the writers were really one note with them and their storylines were consistently underwhelming. They even recycled stuff that they had already wrapped up just to keep them relevent, like having Misty's sisters all of a sudden talk crap about her and having her trying to prove herself to them through a wannabe gym leader even though that was wrapped up all the way back in Kanto in the Misty Mermaid when she's proven herself to her sisters and they totally acknowledged her. They were just artificially kept there on the show despite being done, so very done, and it showed.
    Anyone who watched original series can clearly notice how Misty was far from being "done product".Like goal of becoming water pokemon master which was unexplored for most part,her backstory(not knowing many things like what happened with parents,why she prefers water type,why she fears bugs etc) being accompanied with several of her pokemon being left underdeveloped leaving lot of untapped potential there which could be used to do more with her character.To add on,at that time Misty was insecure,inexperienced and fairly impatient having long way to go(and that journey still isnt over).

    Speaking of her sisters going by logic how "Misty Mermaid"wrapped up complex,we could say how "Waterflowers of Cerulean City"already did that when they recognized Misty battling skills acknowledging it.

    Daisy,Lily and Violet always cared for their younger sisters but that doesnt change the fact how they never had high opinion of her not believing that she would ever be able to be good as them.Even when they admitted how she may have been good in something they always tried to pout themselves in better light of coming out as "more superior"(something which didnt start to change until chronicles) with above example not wrapping anything in any way.It wasnt until episodes with Sakura and Dorian when Misty started to gain more confidence in her abilities with recognition from others helping to build her own mindset and get over state of feeling less worthy.

    It was actually in Johto and followed up with chronicles when Misty started to gain more substance as character becoming more mature and level headed over time learning how to take criticism in better manner.It wasnt until than that we got to see her bond with several water types(like Maril from "For Crying Out Loud",her Poliwhirl etc)starting to understand their feelings and weaknesses along with her water skills starting to improve becoming recognized by several trainers like Trinity,Sakura,Dorian etc.Likewise this was region where her goal actually started to advance thanks to all aforementioned things with Whirl Cup expanding on very concept expanding on it.
    When character starts to develop as trainer he starts to grow emotionally too with one not excluding other.

    Lastly older sisters complex wasnt everything there was about Misty story so i disagree with you on that notion too.Especially when ex head writer mr.Shudo himself confirmed how she wasnt developed as much as she should have been being his mistake.

    Speaking of Brock he started to develop as breeder in this region learning with episodes like "Little Big Horn","Hussle in the castle","Beauty and the breeder" etc allowing him to utilize knowledge and skills about pokemon to full potential learning about new methods of healing,preparing food and how to keep pokemon in optimal shape.

    Misty and Brock had substance as characters in Johto and potential to grow but thanks to bad writing and lack of writers care basically everything in Johto ended up underdeveloped and mistreated.
    Since most development they received happened past Kanto,replacing them that early would have been detrimental to characters ending up like Tracey(in other words not being fleshed out at all).

    Misty, Brock, Ash's Kanto pokémon shouldn't have stayed and in the end, that's what killed Johto.
    Problem with Johto wasnt in same cast but poor writing.If they got replaced with someone else taking place Johto would still have been same with problem not being in characters but writers.Misty and Brock should have been kept because they werent finished as characters and writers had succesful and popular group to make this saga worthwhile and memorable.However they screw things up by not utlizing what they had to full potential alog with not adding substance and sense of going forward with characters and story.Instead they rather contijued todrag on with fillers which didt advanced plotor protagonists stories in any way following same cliched plot of helping COTD on daily basis.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 14th December 2011 at 10:27 AM.

  3. #93
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Originally I didn't mind the original trio being reunited for Johto. I preferred Brock over Tracey and there were no girls from the games to replace Misty with yet. It also was fitting that the original trio did have a second (and final) region together.

    The problem was Johto wasn't written the way Kanto was, it was too long and stretched out, and Misty/Brock went long periods of time of being ignored.

    So overall the original trio being reunited for Johto was fine, its just what happened in it that pretty much killed it for me. Who knew that 9 years later, this trio would never be reunited to date, not even for a single episode? When Misty appeared in AG, May and Max were always there, so there has never been a true original trio reunion in the show, because Ash, Misty and Brock were never "alone" without any other characters there again.
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Johto had it's flaws but so did the other series. Each one had things that were either too much or too little. The thing about Johto for me was the fillers of Kanto Pokemon. I wish that they were more Johto ones. For example, they could have gave us some better information about Tyranitar, Mischevious, and some others that would have been nice. Not to mention, alot of Pokemon were ignored while some were there but not used. :cough: Togepi :cough:

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    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    You know a saga is flawed when all the new pokemon at the time don't even appear in episodes. The fact that Flaafy or Typlosion never debuted in any Johto episodes outside the movies is quite bizarre.
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    My breakdown of Johto:
    I had opportunity to rewatch Johto episodes lately and after refreshing my memory i believe many things are blown out of proportion with Johto not being nearly as bad as some make it out to be. I mean yeah you could say there wasn't enough character development and there happened some bad cop outs like GS ball drop, but i don't think this is enough of downside to put Johto to bottom of list.

    Lot of times Johto is referred as "filler hell region", but this word tends top be dropped a lot even when its not true. Because many episodes which weren't gym battles were actually plot related leaving later impact on series. Like "Ring Masters"for example, which aside from sumo tournament introduced Kings rock stone which served as plot device leading to evolution of Misty Poliwhirl later on. "Imitation Confrontation", "Beauty and the Breeder", "Ariados Amigos", "Will Real prof. Oak Stand Up"etc which brought several Kanto characters like Duplica, Koga sister Aya, breeder Suzy, Todd etc influencing plot(Brock giving away Vulpix being one of them).

    Many episodes contained development for Misty and Brock too like "For Crying Out Loud"(where Misty learned to connect with water pokemon like Marill becoming more confident) , "Some Like it Hot"(where Misty revealed why she likes water pokemon so much coming to understand and respect more other types like fire), "Better Pill to Swallow"(where Brock gained knowledge on preparing new medicines and potions regarding breeding career).etc . And speaking of complete fillers i have to say many were surprisingly enjoyable to watch:such as episode about competition where main objective was to distinguish fire with pokemon with Ash Squirtle having starring role there,, that Seaking contest, episode about old Ninetals deceiving Brock, Hocus Pokemon which turn Ash into Pikachu etc.

    Johto had quite a few important plots going for it actually. Like Ash gym quest with character actually developing as trainer and developing more creative strategies, Whirl Islands which were centered around Misty goal of water pokemon master, arcs about TR organization centralized around Red Gyarados which introduced Lance and Lugia.

    As far as dynamic goes, original trio had great chemistry together in Johto showing that their friendship grew becoming very close to each other. Anyone who watched end of Johto can notice how strong bond Ash, Misty and Brock had as friends being very emotional and hard for them to break up . I suppose point could be made how Ash and Misty argued less but this was rather sign of friendship growing stronger than anything else, with dynamic still being entertaining between them. She was still annoyed when acting stupid or getting lost in forest( when he tried to wash Brock Onix with water or didn't tried her soup in "Sick Daze" for example) . I remember they still had that rivalry between themselves and Misty still liked to tease him frequently making jokes. For example in Chinchau episode when group got separated she was making fun how he is perfect choice to get lost or eat all supplies, ,when she teased and tricked Ash in wearing costume of Octillery to help Marcellus etc. Their friendship was on more endearing note being imbued with lighthearted humor and moral support and while there wasn't as much fights between them compared to Kanto she often came up with snarky comments and jokes, being annoyed with Ash stupidity who always backhanded comments directed toward him. However by no means they still argued having rivalry between them like in Totodile Duel, Whirl Cup, Fortune Hunters, etc.

    I also noticed Ash became less impulsive starting to mature while still showing to have that appeal of clueless and naive small boy. Misty opened up more to Ash and Brock becoming closer as friend which was best showed when parting of in GLc affecting her greatly. While still being cynical liking to tease them on frequent basis,being stubborn wanting to do things her own way, liking to compete with Ash proving that shes better etc.
    For example i remember she became obsessed with Teddiursa in one of episodes being deceived by its cuteness taking over her side. Brock didn't changed much but he was still womanizer being eccentric as character contributing to humor and fun character interaction giving occasionally advice to Ash still acting along with Misty as his mentor from who Ash learned new things and how to stay out of trouble. Needless to say Ash, Misty and Brock still acted like close group of friends which had fun traveling together with each of their personalities fulfilling each other well bringing us many great moments. For instance when Brock got obsessed with NInetales illusion in "Just Waiting on a Friend", Misty slapped him trying to get him back to sense, and searched with Ash how to break hypnosis ,in Sick Daze when Brock was sick Misty tried to cook,having to take over Brock chores with Ash. I remember she gave him advices about romance wanting that he has success with girls finally like in Heartbeak of Brock. It was refreshing to see original trio dynamic being advanced to new level preventing them from feeling static.

    Johto definitely improved from Kanto in some aspects and there were quite a few things being done better.
    -unlike in Kanto Ash was winning badges through skill and strategy in Johto gyms with most gym leaders being portrayed in interesting and unique light. Who can forget Pryce and his touching backstory with Mamoswine, Clair with who there was 5 episode mini arc, Whitney and her unstoppable Miltank etc?

    This is also first and only region where Ash and Pikachu weren't reset taking older pokemon with himself, being treated as direct sequel from Kanto and OI. Granted to make room for new pokemon several reserves were released to either go through spoecial training(like Charizard)or going back to prof. Oak. And its true his Johto team was terribly handled with only pokemon with decent treatment being Bayleef, Cyndaquil, Pikachu and maybe Heracross to lesser extent. However important thing to notice is that Ash started to grew as trainer emotionally which can be noticed in becoming more caring toward his pokemon. Even though it was hard for him to let go Charizard he understood what was best for him, not wanting to stand on his way. He became less impulsive not being same childish kid we used to watch in Kanto days becoming more calculated and strategic which can be noticed in his battles, and he concluded rivalry with his childhood rival Gary in one of most epic battles this show had.

    -Misty and Brock didn't got enough,but compared to Kanto they got significantly more. Brock had several memorable moments where he could display skills as breeder, like when taking care of young Stantler, learning how to prepare new potions ,entered breeder convention meeting up with Suzy and returning Vulpix back to its original owner, got some cool pokemon like Pineco, as well his Zubat evolving all the way to Crobat. Brock didn't got a lot, but it was a hell lot more than he received in Kanto.

    And Misty got more focus there too. There were several great moments where character was truly at its best building up on her skills as water trainer learning how to connect with them on closer level. Like when being lost in forest with Hoot Hoot gaining his thrust and getting them out helping to chase away ghosts .
    She had many memorable interactions with characters like Andreas winning Seaking competition, Sakura becoming great friends with her having things in common with older siblings, Egan with who she managed to find common language gaining his respect , Marcellus to who she helped about Octilery issues giving him encouragement etc. She still added humor playing sub role in various episodes, like trying to investigate who hided under Gligarman mask, Taking initiative to save Pikachu, Togepi and Sentret from TR Arbok tank, , learning how to overcome differences with TR when being separated in "Forest Grumps"chased by wild Ursaring. While being anoyed and angry at James and Meowth she decided to help them out, share her food etc, with Ash and Brock doing same with Jessie.

    She received her own arc Whirl Cup, making steps forward to her goal of becoming water master, battling more frequent compared to Kanto. Whether it was against trainers like Sumomo,Harrison, that guy with Poliwrath(where she got Politoad) or assisting Ash in battling TR. She got some cool pokemon like Poliwhirl ending as her most reliable partner, or Corsola which added diversity to her team being half rock and proving to be strong hiding big power inside itself.

    She also started to grow as person becoming more level headed and independent not needing to rely on Ash or Brock so much anymore, more self confident getting over complex of feeling less worthy compared to sisters, learned how to apply new strategy and develop skills as trainer still bringing comedy, fun interaction and conflict in main cast making you feel that character is actually going somewhere, while keeping her charm.
    I remember she was still tomboyish and rebellious and sarcastic, being full of adventurous spirit.

    In Kanto how much she actually battled? Or for that matter how much character development she got? Yea, i think i can safely say she grew more as trainer and person in Johto, regardless of not being done as much as it should have been.

    -Battles were incomparably better compared to Kanto becoming much more detailed and better animated.

    For any flaws or bad things we got,Master Quest managed to redeem series themselves by far. There were many great arcs like Whirl islands, Larvitar subplot, story about dragon temple and Dragonite for which Charizard returned etc and Johto Silver conference was one of best leagues we had. Hand down, pun intended. Ash sidekicks got more focus(especially Misty) and we received some new things like recurring pokemon Delibird which was quite amusing actually.

    Johto is definitely underrated imo not being given deserved credit and i noticed how this region had several positive things about it given writers first try in stretching out main region for three years. Now that's not excuse for lack of screen time and character development, drop of important plots etc but partially i can cut them some slack given how this was their first time writing for longer regions simply lacking experience, knowledge and idea in which direction to take show. They were unprepared for it and if they had same experience like they have now Johto would be written a whole lot better . Imo they at at very least they deserve some recognition for effort still giving us several noteworthy and intriguing moments with Johto.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 22nd August 2012 at 09:10 AM.

  7. #97
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    For me, only a little. For me, it's only major flaws were the abandoning of the GS Ball plot, andd the fact that it ended at all :(

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    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    By the time Johto was ending it felt like a miracle. The damn arc went on forever and especially when it was originally going with no end in sight (we had no clue at the beginning how long it'd be) it felt like the writers were almost apologizing to us for how poor it was.

    Its especially notable how the writers never did repeat any of the mistakes they made in Johto in any of the following arcs. But as they say, "the damage was done."

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    By the time Johto was ending it felt like a miracle. The damn arc went on forever and especially when it was originally going with no end in sight (we had no clue at the beginning how long it'd be) it felt like the writers were almost apologizing to us for how poor it was.

    Its especially notable how the writers never did repeat any of the mistakes they made in Johto in any of the following arcs. But as they say, "the damage was done."
    Honestly, I still don't think it was that bad and I still can't really get upset for all of the flaws Johto had. There were plenty, but since this was the first time the writers had to make a single journey last for a whole generation and they had no experience doing something like that. So, it's only natural that there would be more mistakes in that arc and that they would learn from their mistakes. It doesn't excuse every problem Johto had, but with that in mind, it isn't something that I'm upset about.

    The pacing was bad, Ash's Johto team wasn't handled as well as it could have been, Misty and Brock could have benefited from more focus and Ash relying on his older Pokemon from the eighth Gym and most of the Johto League wasn't the best choice in retrospect, even though most of Charizard's battles were pretty cool. Still, Ash's Johto Pokemon generally had more personality than his Kanto team did, the Gym battles were way better than almost everything from the Kanto/Orange Islands arcs, and the Johto League was handled much better than the Indigo League. Most of the fillers that I've seen again weren't even that bad. They usually ranged from being decent to really fun with only a few here and there that I thought were really bad. The pacing is still pretty bad, especially if I watched only one episode a week, but with all the problems Johto had, it did make some improvements over Kanto/Orange Islands, it is a pretty enjoyable arc and I think that it is a rather underrated arc.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    By the time Johto was ending it felt like a miracle. The damn arc went on forever and especially when it was originally going with no end in sight (we had no clue at the beginning how long it'd be) it felt like the writers were almost apologizing to us for how poor it was.
    Sinnoh was longer than Johto and i don't see anyone complaining about being bad just because it was long.

    While ill admit how Johto had its fair share of flaws there were several things i liked about this saga such as:several arcs(like Lugia,Whirl Cup.Larvitar etc),battles becoming better,better portrayal and introduction of gym leaders,original trio still having good chemistry and character interaction feeling close as group than DP did which culminated in memorable departure,Johto league,Team Rocket(although opinions vary about them there)along with Johto feeling fresh initially having good chunk of great episodes.

    And i can without doubt say how Master Quest had very little to really complain about with anime feeling to start being more plot oriented again, with story and characters going forward. Such as arcs with dr. Namba and Lugia, or Red Garados being linked to TR organization which became more active in Johto(heck even whole movie Mewtwo returns was about Giovanni and Team Rocket). Introduction of Delibird which was sent by TR talent scout following Jessie, James and Meowth until they repay debt they owe to TR organization.

    Whirl islands foreshadowing Corsola capture, reappearance of prof. Elm serving as prelude to Whirl Cup digging deeper in whole Misty water master goal. Previously won king rock in sumo tournament which Snorlax won for Ash being used to evolve Poliwhirl.
    Reappearance of characters like Sakura which established strong friendship with Misty continuing to appear in chronicles. Or Casey.
    Pokemon race where Ash defeated Gary earning Phanphy egg, etc.

    Most events in Master Quest were directly or indirectly tied to each other with series and characters advancing forward.

    As for Johto in general i stand by what i said of original trio still having memorable interactions and chemistry which contained lot of humor, snarky teasing, clash and lively interactions which felt natural and actually interesting.
    AS well each main character experiencing some growth proving to be positive for him in longer run. Whether its about Ash who became less stubborn and impulsive becoming slightly more mature and alot more experienced as trainer not making foolish mistakes so often like he did in Kanto, as well managing to find common language with his old time childhood friend and rival Gary with their competitiveness ending on respecting note.

    Brock learned more on preparing potions and medicines becoming better breeder, his Pineco and Golbat evolved along with returning Vulpix to old longtime known friend Suzie competing with her in breeding contest. While Misty became more mature and self confident overcoming complex of feeling inferior to older sisters later sharing her issue with characters who had same issue(like Sakura), grew more attached to Ash and Brock appreciating their friendship helping her to become more independent and improved as trainer through first place in Seaking contest or Top 8 in Whirl Cup along with changes in her team reflecting this growth .

    Its especially notable how the writers never did repeat any of the mistakes they made in Johto in any of the following arcs. But as they say, "the damage was done."
    Except we are still dealing with poorly developed pokemon teams, certain characters ended up neglected, there were several butchered plots in AG,DP and BW along with good chunk of episodes being unbearable to watch.

    Now i can agree how in some aspects show has improved with writers learning on mistakes. But to say how sagas which came afterwards had no flaws would be big understatement to say.
    If anything i actually find Johto was more emotion driven, had to this day best group dynamics and level of unpredictability that none of later regions managed to replicate in same manner.

  11. #101
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Well, I dare say tha...-

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    -SNIP-
    Well, I think got Ninja'd in the first reply.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Personally... they should've reduced some fillers and give Gary more episodes on his rivalry with Ash. They did a good job wrapping up the rivalry in the League, but there had hardly been any buildup before the league. There should've been more episodes where Gary steadily develops respect for Ash and his pokemons, and some more flashbacks would've been better.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Blueberry View Post
    Personally... they should've reduced some fillers and give Gary more episodes on his rivalry with Ash. They did a good job wrapping up the rivalry in the League, but there had hardly been any buildup before the league. There should've been more episodes where Gary steadily develops respect for Ash and his pokemons, and some more flashbacks would've been better.
    Finally, someone points this out. This has been a problem for me as well. I know he had appearances in Kanto, but we hardly saw him in Johto. And what made it weird was that people said their battle was so epic, but yet we barely saw him before and didn't see him after for a long time. What was up with that? They should have went on ahead and made Casey his rival as well. She seemed like she showed up more than he did.

    Brock, Misty and Ash's Johto team is what I saw flaw in. They brought Brock back due to popularity and if I'm not mistakened skin color and you bring him back to do less than what he did before?

    As far as Misty goes, there was no excuse, she had been on in two regions so far and they acted like they didn't know how to treat her or her pokemon right. I mean Togepi. Make the thing do something and you've got yourself a pokemon.

    The Kanto pokemon Ash had with him should have been all dumped before he went to Johto. It could have probably avoid all that mess such as "how bad his Johto team" was and such. In all those filler they had in Johto is where they could have letted him Johto team shine. He should have also got Larvitar earlier and kept it that way it would have been a powerhouse later on. But what did they do? They gave it's evolution to Ritchie. As Ash clone. Complete mess.
    Last edited by Caseydia; 27th February 2013 at 03:45 PM.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    I can say Johto was split into 2 parts. Seasons 3/4 and 5. The first part was DEFINITION OF DISASTER!
    The second one was quite great, with the Whirl side-quest, all those TeamRocket arcs (Lugia, Gyarados, Dragonite) and the FREAKIN' EPIC Johto League!

    Since I wasn't into Pokemon when Johto originally aired, I had to watch the episodes through internet much later. I saw around 10% of Seasons 3/4 and 100% of Season 5...

    I got a scum result on that bush! LYNCH IT LYNCH IT LYNCH IT!

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    The only thing I can say bad about Johto is that think the fact that it as the first full region, with twice as many episodes as Kanto may have had a part in the way it was received...

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