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  1. #46
    Registered User Blue1225's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by darkqueen View Post
    At the Silver Conference, Ash finally get to battle Gary at the League, and the old rivalry pops up again. I'm not talking about the rivalry itself - but Gary was the main rival up till Johto, and he had a surprisingly short amount of screen time. When considering he is a main rival, he should've appeared in more episodes. Look at Paul in DP - he appears every few episodes here and there. Sometimes for a battle, sometimes just as passing. Gary? Gary didn't appear that much.

    Also, there's the GS ball quest they never completed. Sure, we all know it was supposed to be a Celebi, but then Movie 4 was going to be released, so they gave it to Kurt and was never to see daylight ever again. I guess writers change plots on the way, but if then why include that stuff anyway?
    Haha, said it before and i'll say it again, for all intents and purposes Paul was Gary done right.

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    Yeah, don't have it from me. I'm done. Never wanted this thing to become about Misty when she's only a small part of it. I apologize that it did.

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  2. #47
    Face of mercy? NOPE Yato's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue1225 View Post
    Haha, said it before and i'll say it again, for all intents and purposes Paul was Gary done right.
    What disappoints me the most is that the writers COULD'VE made an excellent rivalry out of Gary, yet they didn't and used up time and effort to create Paul - who is more or less similar to Gary in character.

  3. #48
    I'm a Biotic God. FEAR ME sonic10158's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue1225 View Post
    Look at things the way they are. At the start of the series its safe to assume that Starmie was the stronger of the 2, yet we had Misty contantly using Staryu. When there was really never a point to be using Staryu when she had a Starmie.
    Misty left her Starmie in Cerulean City well before Johto (way back in the Kanto days), so she could not have used it even if she wanted to

  4. #49
    Registered User Blue1225's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by sonic10158 View Post
    Misty left her Starmie in Cerulean City well before Johto (way back in the Kanto days), so she could not have used it even if she wanted to
    Looks at things the way they are. I don't remember when she left Starmie there, but i'm certain it was after the 6th gym. Either way, the fact still remains Starmie was the stronger pokemon to begin with. If anything, Staryu should've been left behind.

    And lets not even talk about Misty anymore. Always gets the thread off track. Johto had too many flaws for my taste

    "Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled Trainers should try to win with the Pokémon they love best". -Karen

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    For the record, specific discussion about Kasumi IS allowed in this thread as long as it's about her character in Johto only.

  6. #51
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Here's what I would have had Ash's Johto team be like:

    - Bayleef. More or less the same, just used in one or two more Gym battles.
    - Quilava. Cyndaquil would have evolved against Jasmine. Quilava would stay in this form but be used extensively.
    - Feraligatr. Totodile would have evolved twice, being Ash's fully evolved water starter.
    - Noctowl. Used a hell of a lot more in battle instead of just to peck TR's balloon.
    - Heracross. Stayed much longer, used in at least 2 Gym battles
    - Phanpy. I'd handle it more or less the same, save its evo for BF.


    I feel that all of Ash's Johto starters should have evolved once.

  7. #52
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd View Post
    Here's what I would have had Ash's Johto team be like:

    - Bayleef. More or less the same, just used in one or two more Gym battles.
    - Quilava. Cyndaquil would have evolved against Jasmine. Quilava would stay in this form but be used extensively.
    - Feraligatr. Totodile would have evolved twice, being Ash's fully evolved water starter.
    - Noctowl. Used a hell of a lot more in battle instead of just to peck TR's balloon.
    - Heracross. Stayed much longer, used in at least 2 Gym battles
    - Phanpy. I'd handle it more or less the same, save its evo for BF.


    I feel that all of Ash's Johto starters should have evolved once.
    As cool as the idea of Ash having a Feraligatr sounds to me and I honestly do want him to have a fully evolved Water starter at some point, I'd definitely would have wanted him to have a Typholsion instead. Cyndaquil had a lot of battles and he did some training with help it get its Fire attacks going from the start of the battle, instead of having to wait awhile and be at a disadvantage. With that and all of the battles it had in mind, it would have been more satisfying to see Cyndaquil reach its final evolved form than Totodile, even if Totodile had been used much more than it actually was in Johto. Though, I would have been okay with Cyndaquil just evolving into Quilava since that really should have happened after the battle against Jasmine, but even with more battles and screentime, I can't see Ash's Totodile becoming a Feraligatr. I could see it only evolving into a Croconaw. It would still have kind of cute, but tough design and it could still be small enough to dance around when it was happy.

    With Noctowl, I probably would have just had it be used in the Gym match against Chuck and then have its Psychic attacks actually be useful against the last Gym match so that Ash wouldn't completely depend on Pikachu and his reserve Pokemon, even though I think that Charizard vs. Dragonair was a pretty good battle. With Heracross, I might have it stay around longer, but I'd at least would have liked to see it being used in one Gym battle, like against Bugsy. I would have preferred Bulbasaur to be left at Prof. Oak, along with all of the other Kanto starters, so that Ash could get Phanpy and his other Johto Pokemon much earlier so that it could be used in a couple of Gym battles. I'm not sure if I'd want to evolve Bayleef. It was handled fairly well, but I was always kind of disappointed that it didn't evolve into a Meganium too in order to give Ash's Johto team a bit more power, but if Cyndaquil and Totodile had evolved at least once, then I probably wouldn't have a problem with Bayleef not evolving since Ash's team would have been stronger in this scenario.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd View Post
    Here's what I would have had Ash's Johto team be like:

    - Bayleef. More or less the same, just used in one or two more Gym battles.
    - Quilava. Cyndaquil would have evolved against Jasmine. Quilava would stay in this form but be used extensively.
    - Feraligatr. Totodile would have evolved twice, being Ash's fully evolved water starter.
    - Noctowl. Used a hell of a lot more in battle instead of just to peck TR's balloon.
    - Heracross. Stayed much longer, used in at least 2 Gym battles
    - Phanpy. I'd handle it more or less the same, save its evo for BF.


    I feel that all of Ash's Johto starters should have evolved once.
    No problem with Bayleef. Personally I wanted Cyndaquil to evolve into Typlosion and basically take over Charizards role on Ash's team, however given what we know the AG and that Ash had a fully evolved fire starter from Kanto and a fully evolved Grass starter in Hoenn, I wouldn't have minded him getting Feraligatr. Noctowl definitely needed more battles under its belt so that it could stand out from his other bird pokemon. (Besides the shiny thing) Heracross needed more training so that its win over Gary's Magmar would've actually made sense. Phanphy did alright.

    But yeah, there was no reason for Cyndaquil and Totodile not to evolve. It was basically Bulbasaur and Squirtle all over again.

    "Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled Trainers should try to win with the Pokémon they love best". -Karen

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  9. #54
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    You know I just can't get over the change in tone for the show. Even before any of the later sagas existed, I just couldn't get over the fact that Johto lost all that stuff that Kanto had.

    What happened to the blaster bombs? The paper fans? The comedic hitting? The semi-darkness to the first season? The humor among the group?

    There are some Johto episodes that do have that similar "Kanto themed writing" but they were few and far inbetween.

  10. #55
    pokemon fan 132 pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    To be fair there were many things kept with Johto like still having good chemistry between original trio providing lot of comedy and intriguing interacting for me.Dynamic between Ash,Misty and Brock slightly changed but they still felt like lively family in Johto being enjoyable with Ash still being impulsive but also being little more mature not falling naively for everything,Misty was still stubborn and possessive but instead of being so violent she used more of her cynical and spunky side while Brock as always flirted with girls and took charge in group making sure to keep everything in check.

    And slapstic humor was replaced with more sarcasm and smart alec jokes being present along with naivety from some of them adding to comedy.
    What Ash traveling companions really needed was more focus and expansion on their stories in Johto,but as group they still felt close imo.

    What i liked about Johto was that it provided many references to Kanto days returning several characters back like Duplica,Suzy,Ritchie,Todd,Koga sister Aya etc or pokemon like Lapras giving it proper closure.

    Another thing i welcomed initially was that this region also kept Ash Kanto pokemon trying to gradually transfer to new Johto ones.I liked this concept but it was unfortunately executed poorly with bad timing being present at cost of some of new ones ending up underdeveloped.
    Though i fount it amusing that Ash received two pokemon eggs technically in Johto(being Phanphy and Larvitar to who he kinda took on mix of father/mentor role).

    What i noticed in Johto was that it was ground breaker in several things which later got expanded on more.It introduced various arcs being compiled of mini stories(namely in Master Quest)like Red Gyarados and Lugia arc,Whirl islands which lasted for 14 episodes culminating with Whirl Cup being treated as mini side region,and who could forget mini arc around Blackthorn city involving legendary Dragonite?

    There were also several side competitions in "all those fillers"like Grass tournament(where Skiplum beat Bulbasaur),Seaking contest,breeding contest,bug catching contest,Extreme pokemon race,competition where trainers needed to extinguish fire with their pokemon,Balloon race,pokemon sumo contest,Sunflora contest(not sure if anyone remember this one)etc.

    Jigglypuff and his funny antics were kept as well,though i never like Snubull as much.It tried to be funny and on some occasions i enjoyed in it but after some time i was pretty indifferent toward this pokemon.Although Delibird was epic being welcomed addition as another recurring pokemon in this saga.

    All in all while Johto had its flaws,it still did some things right having many enjoyable moments and characters giving some development to main group.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 9th September 2011 at 02:50 AM.

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    I! AM NOT! A MORON! Sith Droideka's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    And then Johto was done right with Hoenn, which had the same but more, and with the only real problems being bad contest victories for May, the horrible Aqua/Magma finale, and no rival for Ash.

    At least May didn't spend the entire bloody region carrying around an egg.

    Anyway, back to Johto...

    I think the biggest reason all this group chemistry and family dynamics that pokemon fan 132 seems to think are there don't really show up is that it was too interspersed with tons of episodes that were:

    1. COTD no-one cares about.
    2. Team Rocket!
    3. Misty carries around an egg and makes a vague, useless comment.
    4. Brock hits on a girl. Then he also makes a vague, useless comment, with 150% less egg-carrying.
    5. Team Rocket attacks!
    6. Our heroes have no idea who could've done this hideous crime. It's not as if they're being stalked by Team Rocket, after all.
    7. Our heroes forget the quickly impending Silver Conference so that they can help out random COTD, if they haven't already traveled with them.
    8. Team Rocket reveals themself! Who'd have thought they were behind it?
    9. Ash and COTD fight Team Rocket. Go Johto Poké- NO JOHTO FOR YOU! Go Bulbasaur, steal the focus away from the other Pokémon.
    10. The day is saved, the narrator makes a lame pun, and our heroes make inane and hollow promises to meet again with someone they barely know before continuing onwards.

    Repeat ad nauseoum (sp?), with a slight improvement over the course of the region, and you have late Kanto, OI, and Johto wrapped up into one.
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Johto was flawed because they took important characters and either didn't do ANYTHING with them (Will, Karen and Janine mostly) or did so little with them that it's laughable. (Falkner, Bugsy, Jasmine, hell pretty much all the Johto gym leaders except maybe Clair and Whitney)

    We could have had some nice episodes characterizing the gym leaders (you know, the way we do now) or meeting up with the elites, but no. Instead, we get episodes about Ash helping some kid with some problem. Don't get me wrong, some of the CotDs were adorable as hell, but. We don't get Will or Karen or Janine because of THIS? D:<

    ughhh. AND TO MAKE MATTERS WORSE. Wasn't there an episode around the time HGSS came out involving a clown and Natu/Xatu? 8| ffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuu-

    What Johto tried to do, I think, is push the whole 'always help someone in need' crap at the cost of character development and, yanno....interesting things.

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    pokemon fan 132 pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith Droideka View Post
    At least May didn't spend the entire bloody region carrying around an egg.
    Last time i checked Misty did a lot more than just carrying around egg in Johto having several achievements and actually providing good dynamic and chemistry with various characters beside only Ash and Brock being still vivid contrary to some belief.If anything it seems how even in this region Brock was shafted the most which was truly disappointing.

    As for Togepi,out of other Misty pokemon Staryu,and especially Poliwhirl and Corsola were quite active during course of Johto.
    When it comes to Brock aside from Pineco and Zubat,Onix,Geodude and Vulpix were terribly shafted during Johto not being used very often.

    Same goes for Ash Johto pokmon with Totodile and Noctowl paying price the most.
    It seems how during that time writers didnt knew yet how to treat group pokemon properly.Well they still have problems but there have been done notable improvements in that area since than.

    Anyway, back to Johto...

    I think the biggest reason all this group chemistry and family dynamics that pokemon fan 132 seems to think are there don't really show up is that it was too interspersed with tons of episodes that were:

    1. COTD no-one cares about.
    2. Team Rocket!
    3. Misty carries around an egg and makes a vague, useless comment.
    4. Brock hits on a girl. Then he also makes a vague, useless comment, with 150% less egg-carrying.
    5. Team Rocket attacks!
    6. Our heroes have no idea who could've done this hideous crime. It's not as if they're being stalked by Team Rocket, after all.
    7. Our heroes forget the quickly impending Silver Conference so that they can help out random COTD, if they haven't already traveled with them.
    8. Team Rocket reveals themself! Who'd have thought they were behind it?
    9. Ash and COTD fight Team Rocket. Go Johto Poké- NO JOHTO FOR YOU! Go Bulbasaur, steal the focus away from the other Pokémon.
    10. The day is saved, the narrator makes a lame pun, and our heroes make inane and hollow promises to meet again with someone they barely know before continuing onwards.
    You answered your own question with this.Problem didnt existed with original trio with Ash,Misty and Brock still having personality and enjoyable dynamics but in too many unnecessary fillers being there which prevented main characters to interact and be active due to taking backseat in several episodes which revolved around solving problems with COTD and their pokemon.Even Ash who is main star suffered because of this often not having chance to interact and display his personality with such type of fillers not advancing plot and character stories in any way falling in second plan.

    However in many episodes it can be noticed how chemistry and quality dynamic between Ash,Misty and Brock existed when actually receiving focus which can be back up with several episodes and examples.I watched Johto more than once and i can with certainty say how Johto had several memorable moments and things done right with this region being often underrated.

    Also Master Quest improved in several things correcting past mistakes by cutting down on fillers,introducing various arcs like Whirl Islands and Whirl Cup,Lugia,Red Gyarados and Larvitar arc along with Misty receiving notable amount or screen time in that region feeling that character is getting back on right track as well majority of episodes advancing plot in on or another way.

    If rest of Johto was like this there would be no problems with it.

  14. #59
    Because I can. Caseydia's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Fillers of Kanto Pokemon more than Johto. Brock was sort of the backseat and Misty was the middle seat up towards near the end.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    The Johto saga was totally boring. It was nothing but fillers and pointlessly long gym battles. They should have had a bit more of a plot like, Team Rocket taking over towns and stuff, and then ending the arc with a confrontation against Ho-oh and THEN have the silver conference. There was no overall plot of the Johto Saga, and you could skip the saga entirely until you get to the Sinnoh League when Ash brings back some of his Johto pokemon.

    Ash technically DID have a rival in Ritchie, though we saw him about as often as we saw Gary. I think the writers would have done better to bring Paul *who is basically Silver's anime counterpart* in the Johto saga since Ash had too many f**king rivals in Sinnoh anyway.

    Johto's saving grace was the short-lived Lugia arc, which they did a pretty good job on despite it's abruptness. It would have been nice to see that go a little bit further, but it was decent enough.

    Overall I say the Johto saga is the biggest disappointment before B&W. There is just no end to the fillers and no beginning to any sort of a plot beyond "GET ALL TEH BADGES! 8D" and that's just not enough for me.

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