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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampharos King View Post
    It also felt that Ash's Phanpy was obtained very late in to the saga. The pokemon was very unique in that it was the youngest member of Ash's Johto team at the time, and it had a developed personality; yet was largely overshadowed during a period when Ash began to use his older pokemon like Charizard and Snorlax.
    Reason why Ash had to rely on reserves in some gym battles(like against Clair)was probably because of his Johto team being too underdeveloped at that point to provide decent challenge,because to be honest if he didnt used Charizard and Snorlax in 8th gym i doubt he would ever pass it.

    Not that im complaining because it was refreshing and nice seeing Charizard getting update and how much he improved during training in Charific valley as well being nice to see some of his older pokemon being used again(Snorlax barely got much focus being kept only for OI),but i can understand frustration from some who rather wanted that Ash Johto pokemon were used instead.

    Misty's Goldeen, Staryu, and Togepi felt like extra baggage after the character obtains a Poliwhirl. Psyduck was not seen as often and it did not contribute to as much comic relief as it had in the past. Misty did manage to obtain a Corsola with her Lure Ball, but even so the pokemon was largely overshadowed by a Poliwhirl that had evolved into a Politoed only mere episodes after its capture.
    True about Goldeen and Psyduck but to be fair lack of Psyduck popping out of pokeball as much like he used before felt like step in right diction.Back in Kanto days Psyduck would often pop out of ball during Misty battles messing up with other pokemon screen time which was fixed in Johto allowing that other Misty pokmon get more chance to shine being involved in more serious battles instead of majority being played out as part of comedy.It also helped Misty to better display hr battling skills developing gradually as trainer.

    Agreed about Poliwhirl line being one of her most used pokemon in Johto but Corsola was used quite often in Whirl Islands and late Johto being one of Misty most used pokemon at that point.

    Brock's pokemon were also handled horribly in this saga. Some of his pokemon, like Onix and Geodude, were hardly used in battle due to their size and weight. The writers have devoted 2 episodes developing Brock's Zubat in a way so that it could evolve into its final form, yet Crobat was very rarely used in battle.
    Agreed about Geodude and Onix but to be fair while Brock didnt battle much he quite often used Zubat(later Golbat and Crobat)when something got lost or TR kidnapped pokemon helping to find them(like in "Stolen Stones","All that glitters","Lapras of Luxury","Whistle Stop"etc).

    And his Pineco was probably most used Brock pokemon in Johto for comic relief and occasionally being involved in battling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue1225 View Post
    GStaryu should've never been on her team. Does everyone remember the fact that she HAD A STARMIE FROM THE VERY BEGINNING?! Yet how often did she forsake it and use the weaker Staryu instead? As others, have said Togepi damaged Misty more than it helped her. Overall, some of those fillers should've been episodes that focuse on Brock and Misty and their goals.
    Im not sure what do you mean by "Togepi causing damage"?Because i watched Johto at least four times and there was nothing wrong with Misty as character providing lot of humor and entertainment whenever she was given screen time to shine on her own or shared focus with someone else.There was nothing inherently wrong with Togepi with writers being ones to blame for Misty lack of focus in Johto and for Togepi being wasted not being done something about it.If anything Togepi was step toward Misty maturity as character and in "Master Quest"she got much better screen time being properly handled compared to 3rd and 4th season.

    For record while i would have liked if Starmie was kept instead,i actually liked Staryu who proved to be strong battler capable on holding its ground and good swimmer having several memorable moments often providing help.

    p.s. I just noticed how majority of Johto wasnt even filler related,out of 158 episodes about 65 were fillers where absolutely nothing important happened.Everything else was plot related where it contained character development for Ash,Misty or Brock,focused on their goals,involved new pokemon capture or evolution,involved TR organization,had appearance from recurring characters(like Gary,Casey,Sakura,Duplica or prof.Oak)etc.

  2. #32
    Registered User Blue1225's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Reason why Ash had to rely on reserves in some gym battles(like against Clair)was probably because of his Johto team being too underdeveloped at that point to provide decent challenge,because to be honest if he didnt used Charizard and Snorlax in 8th gym i doubt he would ever pass it.

    Not that im complaining because it was refreshing and nice seeing Charizard getting update and how much he improved during training in Charific valley as well being nice to see some of his older pokemon being used again(Snorlax barely got much focus being kept only for OI),but i can understand frustration from some who rather wanted that Ash Johto pokemon were used instead.



    True about Goldeen and Psyduck but to be fair lack of Psyduck popping out of pokeball as much like he used before felt like step in right diction.Back in Kanto days Psyduck would often pop out of ball during Misty battles messing up with other pokemon screen time which was fixed in Johto allowing that other Misty pokmon get more chance to shine being involved in more serious battles instead of majority being played out as part of comedy.It also helped Misty to better display hr battling skills developing gradually as trainer.

    Agreed about Poliwhirl line being one of her most used pokemon in Johto but Corsola was used quite often in Whirl Islands and late Johto being one of Misty most used pokemon at that point.



    Agreed about Geodude and Onix but to be fair while Brock didnt battle much he quite often used Zubat(later Golbat and Crobat)when something got lost or TR kidnapped pokemon helping to find them(like in "Stolen Stones","All that glitters","Lapras of Luxury","Whistle Stop"etc).

    And his Pineco was probably most used Brock pokemon in Johto for comic relief and occasionally being involved in battling.



    Im not sure what do you mean by "Togepi causing damage"?Because i watched Johto at least four times and there was nothing wrong with Misty as character providing lot of humor and entertainment whenever she was given screen time to shine on her own or shared focus with someone else.There was nothing inherently wrong with Togepi with writers being ones to blame for Misty lack of focus in Johto and for Togepi being wasted not being done something about it.If anything Togepi was step toward Misty maturity as character and in "Master Quest"she got much better screen time being properly handled compared to 3rd and 4th season.

    For record while i would have liked if Starmie was kept instead,i actually liked Staryu who proved to be strong battler capable on holding its ground and good swimmer having several memorable moments often providing help.

    p.s. I just noticed how majority of Johto wasnt even filler related,out of 158 episodes about 65 were fillers where absolutely nothing important happened.Everything else was plot related where it contained character development for Ash,Misty or Brock,focused on their goals,involved new pokemon capture or evolution,involved TR organization,had appearance from recurring characters(like Gary,Casey,Sakura,Duplica or prof.Oak)etc.
    If he'd focused more on his Johto pokemon then he would've stood an excellent chance of defeating Clair without his Kanto mons.

    And what I mean is that any pokemon that's just there to be there and doesn't battle or participate in any way is a waste of space. Togepi ended up damaging Misty because it wasn't ever developed properly so it was really just there. A pokemon that was forever stuck in its baby stage for her to hold and mother. It helped calm her down a little, but it also kept put her in the background. It was her pokemon so it could've easily added more to her character than it did. Maybe Staryu was fine, but there was no reason to constantly use it when we all knew she had a stronger pokemon. That makes you wonder if she was just plain stupid. Who chooses to use the weaker pokemon in a key battle and ignore the stronger pokemon in every battle. If Staryu didn't require a stone to become Starmie it would've evolved.

    ...You really wanna put Gary in that last paragraph? Considering how little he appeared, really? Never said Johto was mostly made of fillers. I simply pointed out that many fillers should've been replaced to develop Brock and Misty, especially Misty. She's a strong character that can stand on her own, yet she's never done as much as Ash or Brock to fulfill her goal. A few episodes of her concentrating on her team would've done wonders. Psyduck evolving as a sign that she'd finally gained control of the pokemon and learned how to use it properly would've done wonders for her.

    "Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled Trainers should try to win with the Pokémon they love best". -Karen

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  3. #33
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue1225 View Post
    And what I mean is that any pokemon that's just there to be there and doesn't battle or participate in any way is a waste of space. Togepi ended up damaging Misty because it wasn't ever developed properly so it was really just there. A pokemon that was forever stuck in its baby stage for her to hold and mother. It helped calm her down a little, but it also kept put her in the background. It was her pokemon so it could've easily added more to her character than it did.
    Than we can say how the real one who was damaged in whole story was Togepi with its potential being wasted preventing Misty growth as trainer and not character itself.It was agreed upon fandom how Misty development as character starting to mature was positive thing because it allowed to build up on established character exploring different personality traits giving it overall more depth liking further character growth it happened in chronicles and Hoenn with Misty growing in more selfconfident and mature character while still being quirky and spunky retaining enjoyable traits.
    Just like most liked Ash maturity in Hoenn or Mays at end of Battle Frontier.

    I agree how in good chunk of episodes Misty was in background but was that Togepi fault?
    I wouldnt say because Misty had Togepi in Kanto,Orange and Master Quest as well but in those seasons she was quit active as character with reason why her character not being given more focus in early and mid Johto with story not going anywhere being mostly caused by lack of Takeshi Shudo care for Misty character never intending to treat her as anything more than token female.

    It can be noticed when he left position of head writer somewhere during mid Johto how Misty screentime started to increase in Johto(namely Master Quest season) evolving Poilwhirl,catching Corsola,receiving whole arc created to do something about her goal(like Whirl Cup).expanded on her preference toward water types starting to explain why she likes them so much in some episodes like "Some Like it Hot",battled more,had several memorable interactions not only with Ash and Brock but various other characters like Sakura,Egan,Dorian etc with some becoming sort of rivals to her later on(Like Sakura).

    Maybe Staryu was fine, but there was no reason to constantly use it when we all knew she had a stronger pokemon. That makes you wonder if she was just plain stupid. Who chooses to use the weaker pokemon in a key battle and ignore the stronger pokemon in every battle. If Staryu didn't require a stone to become Starmie it would've evolved.
    I suppose reason why Staryu was kept instead of Starmie was because writers rather wanted to keep unevolved pokemon and potentially weaker in team who had more room for further devlopment as pokemon being one of mascots and trademarks for Misty character due to using it in games.
    Misty always showed prference toward Staryu using it often even in later seasons like Johto being one of her most recently used pokemon.There always existed special bond between Misty and Staryu being showed how much she cared for him whenever he got hurt or defeated when too much was asked from him as well making sure to polish and keep him in top form which was noticed by other trainers.We can see that for example in "Totodile Duel"when Misty apologized to Staryu for pushing him too hard in battle with her pokemon being aware of her feelings.

    So in a way it can be explained why she kept Staryu for Johto due to big attachment she has toward this pokemon making it imply how it might have been her starter.

    Never said Johto was mostly made of fillers. I simply pointed out that many fillers should've been replaced to develop Brock and Misty, especially Misty. She's a strong character that can stand on her own, yet she's never done as much as Ash or Brock to fulfill her goal. A few episodes of her concentrating on her team would've done wonders. Psyduck evolving as a sign that she'd finally gained control of the pokemon and learned how to use it properly would've done wonders for her.
    To be fair while Misty didnt received enough she was handled better than Brock was in Johto,She battled more,had Whirl Cup,entered various competitions like Seaking contest or Alto Mare race working more toward her goal than Brock did at that point.She also had more character focused episodes,was more active,used more often her pokemon and interacted with various characters contributing more to comedy and good character interaction with her multidimensional prsonality in Johto than Brock in reality did.

    He very rarely used his pokemon,almost never battled,interacted far less with other characters mostly serving role of someone who cooked and provided help to group occasionally serving as mentor to Ash in Johto.
    Granted writers did taken little more active approach with his character in Johto expanding more on his goal of breeder which can be noticed in some episodes where he utilized knowledge as breeder(like when helping injured Stantler,when entered breeding competition with Suzie or when he showed impressive amount of experience in episodes like "Going apricorn "or in "Better pill to swallow").

    However aside from few examples he didnt do much not getting enough focus and whenever i watched Johto i noticed Misty being more active and lively as character than Brock was already listing achievements they had in this region in previous pages.
    I liked Brock in Johto but i cant ignore how he suffered the most out of original group in that region being in background the most.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 5th September 2011 at 04:11 AM.

  4. #34
    I! AM NOT! A MORON! Sith Droideka's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    I think the main problem with Togepi is that it was openly taunting the viewers while also showcasing the untapped potential of its host master. You see:

    Togepi was a baby Pokémon that was cute at first, but by mid-Orange Islands it had gotten tiring.
    Togepi was pretty much useless, and the few times that it did use Metronome seemed to be a Deus ex Machina due to poor pacing.
    Togepi really, really should have evolved in Johto. It had the potential, but apparently the writers thought that they needed a pointless 'cute relief' instead.
    It limited Misty's characterization. It turned her from background-character-that-was-also-sort-of-a-mentor into background-character-who-carries-around-an-egg-what-the-heck-is-she-for. And you know, originally Misty wanted to be a master of water Pokémon or something. But Togepi isn't a water Pokémon.
    And finally, Brock and Meowth did more for Togepi than Misty ever did! Why didn't they get it! Imagine if Togepi was a member of TR!
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    On personal level, I had no real issues with Johto. It's just that the other sagas were way better than Johto dwarfing Johto's credibility. This is just me for you though.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Than we can say how the real one who was damaged in whole story was Togepi with its potential being wasted preventing Misty growth as trainer and not character itself.It was agreed upon fandom how Misty development as character starting to mature was positive thing because it allowed to build up on established character exploring different personality traits giving it overall more depth liking further character growth it happened in chronicles and Hoenn with Misty growing in more selfconfident and mature character while still being quirky and spunky retaining enjoyable traits.
    Just like most liked Ash maturity in Hoenn or Mays at end of Battle Frontier.

    I agree how in good chunk of episodes Misty was in background but was that Togepi fault?
    I wouldnt say because Misty had Togepi in Kanto,Orange and Master Quest as well but in those seasons she was quit active as character with reason why her character not being given more focus in early and mid Johto with story not going anywhere being mostly caused by lack of Takeshi Shudo care for Misty character never intending to treat her as anything more than token female.

    It can be noticed when he left position of head writer somewhere during mid Johto how Misty screentime started to increase in Johto(namely Master Quest season) evolving Poilwhirl,catching Corsola,receiving whole arc created to do something about her goal(like Whirl Cup).expanded on her preference toward water types starting to explain why she likes them so much in some episodes like "Some Like it Hot",battled more,had several memorable interactions not only with Ash and Brock but various other characters like Sakura,Egan,Dorian etc with some becoming sort of rivals to her later on(Like Sakura).



    I suppose reason why Staryu was kept instead of Starmie was because writers rather wanted to keep unevolved pokemon and potentially weaker in team who had more room for further devlopment as pokemon being one of mascots and trademarks for Misty character due to using it in games.
    Misty always showed prference toward Staryu using it often even in later seasons like Johto being one of her most recently used pokemon.There always existed special bond between Misty and Staryu being showed how much she cared for him whenever he got hurt or defeated when too much was asked from him as well making sure to polish and keep him in top form which was noticed by other trainers.We can see that for example in "Totodile Duel"when Misty apologized to Staryu for pushing him too hard in battle with her pokemon being aware of her feelings.

    So in a way it can be explained why she kept Staryu for Johto due to big attachment she has toward this pokemon making it imply how it might have been her starter.



    To be fair while Misty didnt received enough she was handled better than Brock was in Johto,She battled more,had Whirl Cup,entered various competitions like Seaking contest or Alto Mare race working more toward her goal than Brock did at that point.She also had more character focused episodes,was more active,used more often her pokemon and interacted with various characters contributing more to comedy and good character interaction with her multidimensional prsonality in Johto than Brock in reality did.

    He very rarely used his pokemon,almost never battled,interacted far less with other characters mostly serving role of someone who cooked and provided help to group occasionally serving as mentor to Ash in Johto.
    Granted writers did taken little more active approach with his character in Johto expanding more on his goal of breeder which can be noticed in some episodes where he utilized knowledge as breeder(like when helping injured Stantler,when entered breeding competition with Suzie or when he showed impressive amount of experience in episodes like "Going apricorn "or in "Better pill to swallow").

    However aside from few examples he didnt do much not getting enough focus and whenever i watched Johto i noticed Misty being more active and lively as character than Brock was already listing achievements they had in this region in previous pages.
    I liked Brock in Johto but i cant ignore how he suffered the most out of original group in that region being in background the most.
    The portrayal of a pokemon effects its trainers. Are you implying that Misty developed as much as Ash? And due to better writing May's character was handled/developed better in a shorter amount of time. But the point of this thread is about Johto's flaws not May or Ash's characterization. Look at Sith Droideka's post on Togepi. He sums up the problems quite nicely.

    And see if that bond to Staryu was so strong that she would Purposely choose to use it over its stronger evolution, then the writers should've explained why. Could've devoted a decent episode to that.

    Well, Brocks goal has never had much to do with battling. Misty's IS battling to become a master water trainer. I'm extremely hard on her about her goals, because Water is my favorite pokemon type and i've trained/used just about every water type pokemon there is. Misty can't say that same. If you're going to master an element, why not catch and train as many pokemon of that element as you can. Togepi, Horsea and later Azurill, were basically 3 baby pokemon that weren't used for battling that didn't do much to help her character or further her goal.

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  7. #37
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith Droideka View Post
    It limited Misty's characterization. It turned her from background-character-that-was-also-sort-of-a-mentor into background-character-who-carries-around-an-egg-what-the-heck-is-she-for. And you know, originally Misty wanted to be a master of water Pokémon or something. But Togepi isn't a water Pokémon.
    And finally, Brock and Meowth did more for Togepi than Misty ever did! Why didn't they get it! Imagine if Togepi was a member of TR!
    Just because Misty wasnt co-star doing contests doesnt makes her background material.She was never expected to get as much like coordinators did which didnt matter(because quality is more important than quantity)but for role of supporting character she got decent amount of focus during Kanto,Orange and in later half of Johto with main purpose being to provide moral support to Ash character acting like his coach and mentor along with providing humor,good chemistry among group along with focusing on her goals.

    Also not sure from where you get this impression but Togepi certainly didnt limited Misty characterization.She was still very much active and quirky as character after receiving it showing lot of characterization in late Kanto,Orange and Johto.Only notable change was becoming more secure in herself and less violent which was more because of starting to develop as character and mature than anything else with writers building up on what was previously established during Johto giving her more layers,being later followed up with further character growth post Johto-

    Granted Misty was shafted during Johto,but so was Brock,Ash,his pokemon team,Gary etc with everyone paying price due to writers inexperience not knowing how to handle some things right back in the day.Johto was their first longer saga thy had to write for and stretch it out for 3 years or so until new games come out so its understandable why we couldnt expect same level of writing like it was case afterwards.

    Togepi didnt had anything to do with Misty lack of focus during Johto series with lack of screen time=/=affecting quality of someone personality.
    Whenever Misty was involved in episode plot receiving some screen time and chance to shine or shared focus with someone else she showed plenty of characterization having several memorable moments.Every character sometime stands in background not having chance to interact much with others or showcase his traits.Problem with Johto is that there were several episodes where Misty,Brock and even Ash at times were on side not playing any role in episodes.

    But thats not to say how Misty didnt received some quality development and screen time during Johto because she did contributing to groups dynamic and comedy,with several things being improved about character by writers starting to make more active approach regarding her dreams,giving her some development in starting to mature and getting over complex of older siblings inferiority,have her battle more and contribute to resolution of plots in several episodes while still serving role as Ash mentor(just in smaller amount)providing moral support and sense of identity to main cast.
    And trying to label character as someone who "just hold Togepi"would mean to simply ignore everything he did during that saga.

    If we compare amount of screen time Misty received in Kanto or Orange with amount of focus she got in Johto she received more in this region.It wasnt nearly enough when taking in account length of region but it was still more battling,and focus than she got in earlier seasons interacting with more characters at that point contributing to healthy and quality dynamic.

    Reason why Misty didnt received more focus along with not being much done with Togepi during Johto was clearly explained in ex had writer(Takeshi Shudo)blogs who did construction for original series stating how he never cared much for Misty character or main cast in general.He preferred Team Rocket over them along with never intending to increase Misty role and focus eventually deciding to replace her.After he stopped doing series construction it can be noticed during end of Johto league champions and in Master Quest how Misty became more active as character receiving more screen time with other writers trying to redeem for his mistakes.For a sidekick in this season Misty got decent focus receiving whole arc(referring to Whirl Islands),catching new pokmon,along with playing more active role in several episodes out there.

    If anyone is to blame for Misty lack of focus in Johto it was mr.Shudo and certainly not Togepi being simply victim of poor writing.

    And to answer question reason why Misty had Togepi despite not being water type is because it was always part of her character to fall for cute pokemon wanting to have them.She also wanted to catch Odish,Jigglypuff,Teddiursa and Snubull.

    Misty obviously prefers water types wanting to become best trainer of that type in world but if she considers pokmon from other type cute she will want to have it being one of her character traits to fall for such things with romance and hobbies(like fishing)being her other passions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue1225 View Post
    The portrayal of a pokemon effects its trainers. Are you implying that Misty developed as much as Ash? And due to better writing May's character was handled/developed better in a shorter amount of time. But the point of this thread is about Johto's flaws not May or Ash's characterization. Look at Sith Droideka's post on Togepi. He sums up the problems quite nicely.
    And my point was how Togepi didnt caused any damage to Misty characterization having just as much personality like it was the case before.On contrary it served as step toward character maturity with writers building up on Misty character by other sides of her personality being showed more starting to gradually develope.

    This can be noticed in way she interacted with several other characters like Sakura,Egan,Dorian,Andreas etc becoming mature enough to get over her complex of inferiority caused by sisters not being bothered much about it helping Sakura how to deal with her older siblings for example as well being over course of Johto willing to admit her own mistakes and take criticism in much better manner compared to early days.Which is testament to character growth.

    She didnt received enough screen time in Johto but lack of focus=/=affecting someone personality.

    And see if that bond to Staryu was so strong that she would Purposely choose to use it over its stronger evolution, then the writers should've explained why. Could've devoted a decent episode to that.
    We dont know if he was stronger.If Staryu was used more than its evolved form participating in more battles it gained more experience meaning how it could have been possibly stronger than Starmie was.Especially at end of Johto by that time being involved in several battles and getting ton of experience compared to Starmie who was mostly used by sisters for water shows.

    Well, Brocks goal has never had much to do with battling. Misty's IS battling to become a master water trainer. I'm extremely hard on her about her goals, because Water is my favorite pokemon type and i've trained/used just about every water type pokemon there is. Misty can't say that same. If you're going to master an element, why not catch and train as many pokemon of that element as you can. Togepi, Horsea and later Azurill, were basically 3 baby pokemon that weren't used for battling that didn't do much to help her character or further her goal.
    It was established how"Water pokemon master"means to be strongest water pokemon trainer in world with prestigious title being given to those who proven themselves worldwide among other water trainers.In order to accomplish this Misty doesnt need to catch all water types.

    And i understand how Brock goal isnt much about battling but when talking about someone doing steps forward in accomplishing their dreams Brock got less episodes which focused on development of his skills as breeder in Johto than Misty did with episodes which focused on development of her skills as water trainer.

    Also Misty did far more progress toward her dream in Johto than she did in Kanto and Orange.For start she managed to connect on closer level with her pokemon which can be noticed in special bond she created with Staryu(as i pointed out earlier)as well helping her pokmon to get over their flaws.Like it was case with Poliwhirl which had confidence issues when being bullied by Andras Poliwrath encouraging him to believe in itself helping to restore self-esteem back managing to turn match in its favor beating evolved form.
    She battled more often than she did in Kanto using Poliwag line,Staryu and Corsola in several battles whether it was when battling other trainers or Team Rocket.She entered various competitions like i pointed out earlier(like Seaking catching contest or Alto Mare race)displaying her skills as water trainer,managed to prov her worth as trainer to underwater gym leader Dorian,Trinity,Egan,Marcellus and several other trainers being recognized as skilled with water types.

    She also entered Whirl Cup placing top 8 which is pretty good result for someone who entered it for first time with whole tournament expanding on her goal of water pokemon master defining it more and showing how there exist tasks someone needs to enter and pass to com closer toward this dream.Writers did more about Misty goal in Johto than it was case before with Johto doing some things right regarding said character.

    Misty didnt received enough focus(that much is obvious),but this was mainly and only writers fault(namely mr,Shudo who didnt cared much for character to do more with his story).

    And speaking of Misty baby pokemon,i think only Togepi can be blamed for not being done something about it.Horsea was left at gym too soon not getting chance to be used more and possibly evolve and with Misty Azurill there wasnt anything wrong at all.For 2 episodes he was in it was far more useful actually knowing how to battle as it was showed using several attacks(like water gun,bubble beam and refresh)not being all the time in Misty arms like Togepi was being sometime in pokeball.

    Since we didnt seen Misty since than its understandable why we didnt seen Azurill being used more or have her receive some development.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 5th September 2011 at 12:26 PM.

  8. #38
    Registered User Blue1225's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Just because Misty wasnt co-star doing contests doesnt makes her background material.She was never expected to get as much like coordinators did which didnt matter(because quality is more important than quantity)but for role of supporting character she got decent amount of focus during Kanto,Orange and in later half of Johto with main purpose being to provide moral support to Ash character acting like his coach and mentor along with providing humor,good chemistry among group along with focusing on her goals.

    Also not sure from where you get this impression but Togepi certainly didnt limited Misty characterization.She was still very much active and quirky as character after receiving it showing lot of characterization in late Kanto,Orange and Johto.Only notable change was becoming more secure in herself and less violent which was more because of starting to develop as character and mature than anything else with writers building up on what was previously established during Johto giving her more layers,being later followed up with further character growth post Johto-

    Granted Misty was shafted during Johto,but so was Brock,Ash,his pokemon team,Gary etc with everyone paying price due to writers inexperience not knowing how to handle some things right back in the day.Johto was their first longer saga thy had to write for and stretch it out for 3 years or so until new games come out so its understandable why we couldnt expect same level of writing like it was case afterwards.

    Togepi didnt had anything to do with Misty lack of focus during Johto series with lack of screen time=/=affecting quality of someone personality.
    Whenever Misty was involved in episode plot receiving some screen time and chance to shine or shared focus with someone else she showed plenty of characterization having several memorable moments.Every character sometime stands in background not having chance to interact much with others or showcase his traits.Problem with Johto is that there were several episodes where Misty,Brock and even Ash at times were on side not playing any role in episodes.

    But thats not to say how Misty didnt received some quality development and screen time during Johto because she did contributing to groups dynamic and comedy,with several things being improved about character by writers starting to make more active approach regarding her dreams,giving her some development in starting to mature and getting over complex of older siblings inferiority,have her battle more and contribute to resolution of plots in several episodes while still serving role as Ash mentor(just in smaller amount)providing moral support and sense of identity to main cast.
    And trying to label character as someone who "just hold Togepi"would mean to simply ignore everything he did during that saga.

    If we compare amount of screen time Misty received in Kanto or Orange with amount of focus she got in Johto she received more in this region.It wasnt nearly enough when taking in account length of region but it was still more battling,and focus than she got in earlier seasons interacting with more characters at that point contributing to healthy and quality dynamic.

    Reason why Misty didnt received more focus along with not being much done with Togepi during Johto was clearly explained in ex had writer(Takeshi Shudo)blogs who did construction for original series stating how he never cared much for Misty character or main cast in general.He preferred Team Rocket over them along with never intending to increase Misty role and focus eventually deciding to replace her.After he stopped doing series construction it can be noticed during end of Johto league champions and in Master Quest how Misty became more active as character receiving more screen time with other writers trying to redeem for his mistakes.For a sidekick in this season Misty got decent focus receiving whole arc(referring to Whirl Islands),catching new pokmon,along with playing more active role in several episodes out there.

    If anyone is to blame for Misty lack of focus in Johto it was mr.Shudo and certainly not Togepi being simply victim of poor writing.

    And to answer question reason why Misty had Togepi despite not being water type is because it was always part of her character to fall for cute pokemon wanting to have them.She also wanted to catch Odish,Jigglypuff,Teddiursa and Snubull.

    Misty obviously prefers water types wanting to become best trainer of that type in world but if she considers pokmon from other type cute she will want to have it being one of her character traits to fall for such things with romance and hobbies(like fishing)being her other passions.



    And my point was how Togepi didnt caused any damage to Misty characterization having just as much personality like it was the case before.On contrary it served as step toward character maturity with writers building up on Misty character by other sides of her personality being showed more starting to gradually develope.

    This can be noticed in way she interacted with several other characters like Sakura,Egan,Dorian,Andreas etc becoming mature enough to get over her complex of inferiority caused by sisters not being bothered much about it helping Sakura how to deal with her older siblings for example as well being over course of Johto willing to admit her own mistakes and take criticism in much better manner compared to early days.Which is testament to character growth.

    She didnt received enough screen time in Johto but lack of focus=/=affecting someone personality.



    We dont know if he was stronger.If Staryu was used more than its evolved form participating in more battles it gained more experience meaning how it could have been possibly stronger than Starmie was.Especially at end of Johto by that time being involved in several battles and getting ton of experience compared to Starmie who was mostly used by sisters for water shows.



    It was established how"Water pokemon master"means to be strongest water pokemon trainer in world with prestigious title being given to those who proven themselves worldwide among other water trainers.In order to accomplish this Misty doesnt need to catch all water types.

    And i understand how Brock goal isnt much about battling but when talking about someone doing steps forward in accomplishing their dreams Brock got less episodes which focused on development of his skills as breeder in Johto than Misty did with episodes which focused on development of her skills as water trainer.

    Also Misty did far more progress toward her dream in Johto than she did in Kanto and Orange.For start she managed to connect on closer level with her pokemon which can be noticed in special bond she created with Staryu(as i pointed out earlier)as well helping her pokmon to get over their flaws.Like it was case with Poliwhirl which had confidence issues when being bullied by Andras Poliwrath encouraging him to believe in itself helping to restore self-esteem back managing to turn match in its favor beating evolved form.
    She battled more often than she did in Kanto using Poliwag line,Staryu and Corsola in several battles whether it was when battling other trainers or Team Rocket.She entered various competitions like i pointed out earlier(like Seaking catching contest or Alto Mare race)displaying her skills as water trainer,managed to prov her worth as trainer to underwater gym leader Dorian,Trinity,Egan,Marcellus and several other trainers being recognized as skilled with water types.

    She also entered Whirl Cup placing top 8 which is pretty good result for someone who entered it for first time with whole tournament expanding on her goal of water pokemon master defining it more and showing how there exist tasks someone needs to enter and pass to com closer toward this dream.Writers did more about Misty goal in Johto than it was case before with Johto doing some things right regarding said character.

    Misty didnt received enough focus(that much is obvious),but this was mainly and only writers fault(namely mr,Shudo who didnt cared much for character to do more with his story).

    And speaking of Misty baby pokemon,i think only Togepi can be blamed for not being done something about it.Horsea was left at gym too soon not getting chance to be used more and possibly evolve and with Misty Azurill there wasnt anything wrong at all.For 2 episodes he was in it was far more useful actually knowing how to battle as it was showed using several attacks(like water gun,bubble beam and refresh)not being all the time in Misty arms like Togepi was being sometime in pokeball.

    Since we didnt seen Misty since than its understandable why we didnt seen Azurill being used more or have her receive some development.
    Look at things the way they are. At the start of the series its safe to assume that Starmie was the stronger of the 2, yet we had Misty contantly using Staryu. When there was really never a point to be using Staryu when she had a Starmie.

    Maybe she doesn't need to catch all water types, but do you really think she'd be able to gain that title now with the team she has? LOL, does she even have a full team that she's trained to be the best they can be?

    I think as a trainer it would be harder to achieve your goal. I'd imagine that breeding would require a lot of research/reading into different types of pokemon on what can breed with what. Thats stuff that can happen off screen. Battling really does need to be seen.

    You're arguing a moot point. I'm not saying she didn't progress. I'm saying she didn't progress enough.

    Togepi was a waste and hurt her character. Horsea hurt her because she made a stupid decision. Being a water master of course means she wants to be the best water trainer there is. Therefore she should take the time to at least train every water pokemon she does capture and not leave it at they gym where it won't do anything. True, Azurill was better than togepi, but my main point was how the writers felt as if they HAD to give her another baby pokemon for some reason. Like her character can't stand without one.

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  9. #39
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Just a reminder, guys, that character-specific discussion that spans for longer than Johto (in this case about Kasumi) should go in her respective debate thread.


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  10. #40
    I! AM NOT! A MORON! Sith Droideka's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aestivate View Post
    Just a reminder, guys, that character-specific discussion that spans for longer than Johto (in this case about Kasumi) should go in her respective debate thread.
    So just Misty/Togepi in Johto, then? Alrighty.

    As I said in my last post, Togepi (in Johto) was an example of everything done wrong in Johto. It was around too long, etc. But it really was the victim of poor Pokémon placement and character writing. As previously observed by multiple people, though, Misty wound up straying farther from her goal than even Brock, all part of the real over-arching weakness of Johto: unused potential.

    Togepi, as previously noted, is a prime example, but not the only one. Of the actual Johto-caught Pokémon Ash had, only two were ever really given the attention they needed- Cyndaquil and Bayleef. Charizard and Ash's other Kanto starters were given a satisfactory send-off, and Pikachu had much of the focus, true, but in the end the Pokémon that counted were underrepresented. Even at the Silver Conference, Johto's real finale that everyone had waited to see for two-three years, Ash used four Kanto Pokémon in a series nominally set in Johto!

    Brock's Crobat and Forteress were given little focus despite both being Johto.
    Ash's Noctowl was forgettable, despite being a shiny Pokémon.
    Misty's Togepi was never allowed to evolve.
    Team Rocket only got a Wobbuffett. However, Wobbuffett was the best, so that is forgivable.
    Misty's Horsea was not brought back to be turned into a Kingdra, despite it being a great way to showcase a Johto Pokémon.
    Ash's Totodile languished in the shadows, and probably had the least development amongst all of the Pokémon. Of course, it would have suffered worse under Misty.

    The amount of filler in a potentially awesome region was too much too, no matter that if the animé felt like it it could actually produce some awesome stuff (Silver Conference, Misty's send-off, Whirl Islands Cup, Lugia plot, etc.). But the filler problem dates back to Kanto and its own massive amount of filler.
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Personally I think there was only one problem with Johto, but it was kind of a big serious one that kind of makes every other series better than it. Sure there were lots and lots of needless and pointless episodes but I don't really care to focus on that.

    Ash's Pokemon. The Pokemon choices weren't bad, although they could've probably given Ash another Pokemon to work with aside from the Pokemon. But the real fault was the lack of development for them and how much the Kanto Pokemon were treated spades better.

    Could that be because they were going of Kanto and didn't know where to go? Perhaps, but that just comes off as a lazy excuse. Now at the time, there weren't a million moves available but I believe it was only Noctowl of the Johto team that was the only one who learned a new move (if I'm not mistaken) which is sad. There were definitely some nice moves then that could've made a difference.

    Phanpy was caught a little too late, mostly because Bulbasaur didn't leave till really late, and Bulbasaur really was a dead weight and was only used in non gym battles, and other episodes, so it could've left a long time earlier. However I will say Bulbasaur did get better handled than Charizard or Squirtle (in terms of departure only) and it's kind of sad that they came up with annoying reasons to get rid of Charizard and Squirtle, then again I guess technically what was thought up was probably technically better than just leaving them at Oak's lab. And I guess in a small way they did benefit from it somehow.

    But the Johto team was definitely not handled to the best they could. Chikorita did okay and actually evolved. Cyndaquil did okay during gyms but did absolutely nothing in the league except beat a blink and miss Exeggutor, Totodile didn't get any sort of development at all, and didn't win that much. Heracross was never in a gym battle which is disappointing but it did remarkable against Gary's Magmar. Noctowl was only treated well against Morty. And Phanpy was such a late comer but didn't do all that much in Johto at all. At least Phanpy did beat Macey's Slugma though in the Silver Conference.

    It comes down to it being a shame they didn't try harder with the Johto Pokemon. It just seems they didn't put as much effort into it as they could've put into it. I just think it's sad that Misty and Brock had more evolutions than Ash.

    However the battles on the other hand is one of the best things Johto had to offer. Most if not all were vastly superior to the battles in Kanto, and actually introducing an officiator/referee in all official battles was really the what made Pokemon Anime Battles what they are today.

  12. #42
    Because I can. Caseydia's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    The fillers of Kanto Pokemon were just too much.

    I loved the COTD's but the pacing of getting from gym to gym.

    Brock being brought back doing nothing but flirt with every girl was funny but it got ridiculous when the Trouble's brewing episode came on. I mean it was just out of control.

    Ash's Johto Pokemon were poorly planned. I got that the writers were to give him the starters but when they evolved Chikorita and Totodile's potential wasn't showing, I feel that it could have been done better. And Poor Phanpy. Poor Phanpy. My favorite Pokemon. So late. So could have been better.

    You know what I'm starting to tear up so I'll stop. I don't like discussing Johto too much or I'll get too emotional.

  13. #43
    pokemon fan 132 pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue1225 View Post
    Maybe she doesn't need to catch all water types, but do you really think she'd be able to gain that title now with the team she has? LOL, does she even have a full team that she's trained to be the best they can be?
    In order to become water pokemon master is most important thing your skill as trainer and not pokemon you have though.
    It is also required to enter prestige water tournaments and competitions proving your skills and adaptation as trainer to various situations among other trainers in world like Whirl Cup showed starting to define Misty goal with writers doing step forward about it .

    And Misty pokemon team started to improve in Johto.Her Poliwag evolved all the way to Politoad,Staryu received during its run ton of battling experience and new member was added to team in form of Corsola which added variety to Misty team by getting dual type which was partially rock allowing for use of different techniques providing her advantage against some pokemon.

    While im well aware of som mistakes writers did in that region there were also several things being done right being among list of positive things which happened in Johto.

    I think as a trainer it would be harder to achieve your goal. I'd imagine that breeding would require a lot of research/reading into different types of pokemon on what can breed with what. Thats stuff that can happen off screen. Battling really does need to be seen.
    And if we count all those battles Misty had against Tam Rocket in Johto,in competitions like Whirl Cup or Seaking contest,various clashes between trainers like Sakura,Dorian,Marcellus,Andreas,Dorian,Sumomo etc,etc,her point is that she battled far more in Johto than it was case before.

    Togepi was a waste and hurt her character. Horsea hurt her because she made a stupid decision. Being a water master of course means she wants to be the best water trainer there is. Therefore she should take the time to at least train every water pokemon she does capture and not leave it at they gym where it won't do anything.
    Togepi potential was wasted that i agree with but it didnt hurt Misty character in any way.There wasnt any decline in her personality during Johto series like i explained before still being quirky and hotheaded but also less violent because of starting to mature.
    Which allowed that other sides of character com on surface being explored more.

    Now i can understand how some people only liked said character punching people but Misty had much more to it than just that.

    Main problem with Misty character was lack of proper screen time in such a long region like Johto was not receiving enough development nor having chance to be more active.Something which was writers fault,and hardly Togepi.

    Togepi role was to act like second mascot beside Pikachu in main cast during Johto being first egg ever introduced helping to advertised second generation of games during time Johto came in.Togepi may have not do much but it did get screen time from time to time when he used to wander of getting lost gaining friendship with various pokemon both from wild like Houndoom and Voltorb and among main cast.It also helped save group couple of times by using teleportation or metronom when they were in danger.

    But writers made initial mistake by his role not having much to do with battling with his portrayal in anime being described as small and fragile baby pokemon serving mostly as secondary mascot.Granted Togepi wouldnt be of much help in his current state but if he evolved during Johto he could have provided useful addition to Misty team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith Droideka View Post
    As I said in my last post, Togepi (in Johto) was an example of everything done wrong in Johto. It was around too long, etc. But it really was the victim of poor Pokémon placement and character writing. As previously observed by multiple people, though, Misty wound up straying farther from her goal than even Brock, all part of the real over-arching weakness of Johto: unused potential.
    I dont think Togepi was biggest downpoint of Johto series.I agree how it should have evolved back than and how he was never used to full potential but biggest flaws within Johto would be plots like GS ball being butchered,excessive amount of fillers which didnt contributed to anyone development and lack of structured storyline and any real rivalries being present(Gary appearing for 3 to 4 times over span of 150 episodes can hardly count).

    Also like i pointed out while not enough Misty did bigger progress toward her goal in Johto than Brock did.She at least had that Whirl Cup which touched on whole concept,entered more competitions,manage to establish closer bond with some of her pokemon(like Poliwhirl for example)battling far more at that point.We can see how her skills as trainer improved in Johto compared to early days being recognized by several trainers out there.

    When we look at number of episodes focusing on characters in Johto or ones where they shared focus Misty was second most active character in main cast after Ash in Johto.Which isnt saying a lot since it wasnt enough but to be fair her treatment in Master Quest was pretty decent for a supporting character with writers getting her back on right track doing more with it.

    Brock's Crobat and Forteress were given little focus despite both being Johto.
    Crobat yes but Pineco not so much,It was used quit often using to explode for comic relief along with proividing help in battle on some occasions.Considering how it didnt evolved till episode "Entei at Your Own Risk" which was at tail end of Johto right before league its not like there was much time to b used for.

    Misty's Horsea was not brought back to be turned into a Kingdra, despite it being a great way to showcase a Johto Pokémon.
    Agreed,i always wandered why Horsea wasnt brought back in Johto which was rich with water areas being perfect opportunity to give him some development eventually evolving all the way to Kingdra having marketing value.

    Another missed opportunity by writers.

    Ash's Totodile languished in the shadows, and probably had the least development amongst all of the Pokémon. Of course, it would have suffered worse under Misty.
    I dont think so,if she got Totodile she probably wouldnt receive Corsola in that case with screentime which was given to coral pokemon being delivered to him.Only difference was that she would receive new pokemon in beginning of Johto meaning how there would be more time left to give it chance to shine.

    I always thought one of Johto mistakes was also giving to Ash all three starters instead of diversifying things a bit by giving his companions some starters as well and water starter like Totodile would suit Misty faring better under someone who specialize in this type in longer run.Especially when we take in account how Poliwhirl and even Corsola got better treatment than aligator did.

    Giving Ash all starters hurt them more than it helped since Kanto pokemon were hogging up screen time messing up with proper development of new ones with some like Totodile ending up neglected terribly.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 6th September 2011 at 05:35 AM.

  14. #44
    I'm Alive The Puppetmaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aestivate View Post
    Just a reminder, guys, that character-specific discussion that spans for longer than Johto (in this case about Kasumi) should go in her respective debate thread.
    Reinforcing what Aestivate said, infractions will be given out if this continues to be an issue. Thank you.

  15. #45
    Hyping over Steven Stone Yato's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    At the Silver Conference, Ash finally get to battle Gary at the League, and the old rivalry pops up again. I'm not talking about the rivalry itself - but Gary was the main rival up till Johto, and he had a surprisingly short amount of screen time. When considering he is a main rival, he should've appeared in more episodes. Look at Paul in DP - he appears every few episodes here and there. Sometimes for a battle, sometimes just as passing. Gary? Gary didn't appear that much.

    Also, there's the GS ball quest they never completed. Sure, we all know it was supposed to be a Celebi, but then Movie 4 was going to be released, so they gave it to Kurt and was never to see daylight ever again. I guess writers change plots on the way, but if then why include that stuff anyway?

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