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  1. #181
    Moderator Hidden Mew's Avatar Forum Head
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Odinn View Post
    My biggest complaint about Johto is not showing regional Pokemon enough. I mean while Blaziken made its debut in Johto saga episodes, Typhlosion made its debut in Hoenn saga episodes. And it wasn't even a vital role. The writers didn't use well most of likeable Johto Pokemon.
    Typhlosion not getting a proper appearance in Johto always bothered me. They were able to showcase the other Johto starters' evolved forms, but Typhlosion got nothing. Plus, it was my first fully evolved starter Pokemon, so I didn't like how it didn't appear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caseydia
    Johto was alright depending on the episodes. But most of it was a filler fest and it would have been nice for Ash's friends to either have been doing more or replaced back then.
    I agree that it would have been nice for Misty and Brock to be more active in Johto. They had more focus in this arc than they did in Kanto, which isn't really saying much, but it still could have been improved. I'm not sure how they could have been replaced. There weren't any other characters from the games that could have taken their place and they didn't seem interested in making more anime-only characters like with Tracey. If Kris was in G/S instead of being an exclusive feature in Crystal, maybe she could have been in the group, but even that might not have happened since I think that they wanted the original trio back for Johto anyway.

  2. #182
    smile Enzap's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    The fact that a lot of regional Pokemon didn't get proper attention kind of reflected the Gold and Silver video games. Out of all 8 gym leaders in Johto combined, there were only 4 Johto Pokemon on their teams. Naturally this treatment carried over to the anime, especially in gym episodes.

    I remember enjoying the Johto region more than most of the others. It did have a lot of filler, but I found it humorous and entertaining filler. I do wish Ash had captured more non-starter Pokemon in Johto though. Most of the Pokemon that he used were from Kanto, and Misty and Brock's teams barely changed as well.

  3. #183
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    I stopped watching the anime only a few episodes into Johto.

    It wasn't that the show seemed any worse to me, I just realized that I wasn't going to see anything surprising.

    I kind of followed Johto for the sake of the GS ball, but after that went nowhere I really didn't come anything close to watching anything other than the movies until Sinnoh, and then I watched Unova until the Rocket Vs. Plasma letdown, and finally pretty much lost interest after the Nimbasa Subway arc.

    Since then I went back and watched a number of the Johto episodes. It wasn't bad, it just coincided with my oversaturation in Pokémon stuff.

  4. #184
    Registered User Madame Pika's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Very. It was basically all the worst points of Kanto stretched out. Now, having COTD plots wasn't new to Jouto I know (and I personally found the way that Kanto made the frigging gyms into COTD plots until it's pretty much just the league that wasn't COTD plots far more annoying), but I can see why people called them 'Jouto style filler.' It felt like they would go many episodes without a battle and that's despite the fact that battles were slightly better in Jouto. (Not that battles were worth watching until AG anyway.)

    They hadn't learned how to make stretches between gyms remotely interesting (not that the gyms themselves were great), unlike in Advanced and DP. Even Best Wishes has it so you can at least admire their vague attempts. No contests, only one tournament, very little from the rivals. Even pokemon captors went downhill with the fact that there were so few. (One of the best decisions in AG was the introduction of Satoshi only taking Pikachu with him.)

    Then there's the trio. Whilst the trio were only very briefly that entertaining as a group, they were at least entertaining as individuals in Kanto. Kasumi lost most of her spunk so she could become motherly. This could have been an interesting development. It wasn't. Instead it felt like she'd been robbed of her entertainment. Though in many ways you could say that that is more a criticism for late Kanto. Takeshi. I don't get why the writers bought him back. No, I do know though that wasn't really explained until AG: they needed someone to cook. Even then they did very little with the character and it was a definite sign that having a character there does not equal development. They literally had him to nothing until AG and DP and those two only really because of the new group and him leaving respectively. Satoshi though was an improvement, though only mildly and it was hard to notice it, since they were too busy making COTD plots to really use the character.

    Also, it's kind of minor but I was annoyed that cross-dressing for Team Rocket decreased here.

    Plus, whilst this is definitely more a Orange Islands thing, I hated how the show became less Japanese.

    That said, there was one really good thing about Jouto: Team Rocket. Whilst most of their developing had been done by then, they still were aware of their jobs: to make the show entertaining. In some ways, it's here that they really start to show how really optimistic they are. I liked how the writers were admitting and looking at what they'd written. It's a shame that they couldn't have done something like that for Kasumi too. Just imagine she'd had a 'actually I never train my pokemon and just talk about how wonder water pokemon are all the time therefore am pretty much all talk no walk' arc and really challenged herself. They did for Takeshi... in DP. Satoshi just grew out of his immaturity.

  5. #185
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Madame Pika View Post
    Very. It was basically all the worst points of Kanto stretched out. Now, having COTD plots wasn't new to Jouto I know (and I personally found the way that Kanto made the frigging gyms into COTD plots until it's pretty much just the league that wasn't COTD plots far more annoying), but I can see why people called them 'Jouto style filler.' It felt like they would go many episodes without a battle and that's despite the fact that battles were slightly better in Jouto. (Not that battles were worth watching until AG anyway.)

    They hadn't learned how to make stretches between gyms remotely interesting (not that the gyms themselves were great), unlike in Advanced and DP. Even Best Wishes has it so you can at least admire their vague attempts. No contests, only one tournament, very little from the rivals. Even pokemon captors went downhill with the fact that there were so few.
    I actually think Johto didn't fall behind AG and DP in battles at all. I liked all of Ash gym battles (especially against Morty, Chuck, Pryce, Jasmine and Clair), against other trainers like Shingo and Scizor wth Heracross, Chigusa with Hitmontop, other trainers Tauros with his own etc. Or Misty battles against others like Dorian in underwater gym, Sakura and her sisters, Whirl Cup when battling Harrison or Trinity etc. Side battles like Gary Umbreon vs Alakazam.

    Even some of TR legit duels which resulted in blast off. Especially when new addition Wobuffet was added posing serious threat with his counter in some episodes. Of course there is league and legendary battles between Gary, Harrison and Jackson too.

    Speaking of gap between gyms while some of them between Ecruteak and Goldenrid were dreadful to watch, there were many fun things between them as well imo. I liked mini competitions like Bug catching contest, grass tournament, sumo wrestling match, Breeder convention, fishing contest or Whirl islands side adventure. Or TR arcs including dr. Namba and experiments on species like Gyarados.

    Being followed with episodes dealing with TR development and diving into their past like Blissey and Jessie en counter, Misty's growth in form of bonding and better understanding water types like Marill or Poliwhirl, discovering her own qualities getting out of complex of feeling inferior to Daisy and co and learned how to become stronger trainer with Whirl Cup, side events she entered and battles against other trainers giving her valuable experience. Ash progress in learning from his defeats against trainers like Whitney or Ephram and his Skuplum realizing how arrogance and overconfidence cant cost you a lot, understood whats best for his pokemon leaving Charizard or Squirtle with tough heart to go their own way etc.

    Then there's the trio. Whilst the trio were only very briefly that entertaining as a group, they were at least entertaining as individuals in Kanto. Kasumi lost most of her spunk so she could become motherly. This could have been an interesting development. It wasn't. Instead it felt like she'd been robbed of her entertainment. Though in many ways you could say that that is more a criticism for late Kanto.
    If you consider only hitting others with fists and yelling(not like she stopped doing it) as only enjoyable trait Misty had, i suppose i can understand why you might have found her boring from late Kanto and onwards.

    But for me just because Misty became less hotheaded in late Kanto continuing to Johto doesn't equal character being robbed of from entertaining virtues having to respectively disagree with such notion.
    She still had lot of spunk being stubborn and headstrong not being willing to back down against others like Egan, Dorian, Ash etc. Got annoyed and frustrated with her pokemon like Psyduck, when they were late or embarrassed because of Ash. Came up with biting remarks about Brock obsession over girls along with getting into clash and arguing with her friends, TR or others when getting on her nerves yelling at them like Andreas, Timmy, Butch and Cassidy or anyone in general who underestimated her skills or was oblivious and ignorant to her advices.

    Along with exploring on various other personality traits unique for Misty character making her vibrant and very rich in characterization. We saw more of her sarcasm, girly side, passionate love and dedication toward battling and water types, spunk, her witty and timid side etc becoming fairly rounded character feeling more genuine and realistic. While keeping her tomboyish aspect and flare.

    Looking back she had plenty of flare post Kanto and in Johto, with only difference being cooling down a bit not being so much temperament like she used to which was good thing because it helped her to value more her friendship with Ash and Brock opening up to them becoming more mature over time. Which allowed for some quality growth in late Johto and chronicles.

    Takeshi. I don't get why the writers bought him back. No, I do know though that wasn't really explained until AG: they needed someone to cook. Even then they did very little with the character and it was a definite sign that having a character there does not equal development. They literally had him to nothing until AG and DP and those two only really because of the new group and him leaving respectively.
    I presume Brock was returned because writers realized how he is still widely liked and popular as character with no one having problems with his eyes. As they originally thought it would be the case trying to play on more cautious side by introducing anglo saxon type of character.

    Speaking of Brock in Johto while i can agree how he didn't got enough focus, he still got some pretty good screen time there and development which reflected on increase of his breeder skills. Through exchanging tips with other breeders or medics. Learning how to apply his already accumulated knowledge in various situations when group pokemon was poisoned, when wild pokemon was hurt or by simply intervening as intermediate in love feuds or fears between certain pokemon.

    Along with enriching group dynamics with his various jokes, flirty attitude, wise and caring side bringing to anime stability and balance fulfilling valuable tasks and creating order in main cast acting like older brother/"voice of reason". Nevertheless still helping Ash about pokemon strategies and training, being involved with selection of pokemon and tactic before tournaments or league being his mentor and personal coach. Granted while Ash became more experienced and knowledgeable since Kanto days, he still showed to be quite impulsive and inconsiderate depending on Brock and Misty help who still guided him and helped how to become better, encouraged to work harder and comforted after harsh loses or bad experiences giving him lot of moral support.

    I suppose with Brock return writers wanted to create sequel of what was established in Kanto with Ash, Misty and Brock building up on their friendship and stories. Which didn't went that great in story and development sense mainly due to writer lack of preparation and inexperience when it comes to writing for long sagas like Johto being their first try, but also various quarrels existing between them at that time of not being sure in what direction to take anime(as brought up in Shudo blogs).

    However i still find characterization was one of Johto strongest points with main cast having appeal and playful dynamic , truly feeling like real group of friends which had fun traveling together when actually center of attention was focused on them.
    ..

  6. #186
    Registered User Madame Pika's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    If you consider only hitting others with fists and yelling(not like she stopped doing it) as only enjoyable trait Misty had, i suppose i can understand why you might have found her boring from late Kanto and onwards.
    I don't consider it her only enjoyable trait. I consider it her main enjoyable trait (especially in terms of attracting interest in her character). I just felt that most of her other enjoyable traits (which in my opinion were badly focused on throughout, ill developed and sometimes contradictory in presentation in a way I don't see as ambiguous) had little to do with Jouto and would have led to off topic discussion that I don't wish to go into.

    I presume Brock was returned because writers realized how he is still widely liked and popular as character with no one having problems with his eyes. As they originally thought it would be the case trying to play on more cautious side by introducing anglo saxon type of character.
    I know there's evidence that they found out that no one had any problems with Takeshi and his eyes, but I've never seen anything to suggest that he was that popular. I've seen this claim a few times and I'm curious at if there's anything I've missed.

    Along with enriching group dynamics with his various jokes, flirty attitude, wise and caring side bringing to anime stability and balance fulfilling valuable tasks and creating order in main cast acting like older brother/"voice of reason". Nevertheless still helping Ash about pokemon strategies and training, being involved with selection of pokemon and tactic before tournaments or league being his mentor and personal coach. Granted while Ash became more experienced and knowledgeable since Kanto days, he still showed to be quite impulsive and inconsiderate depending on Brock and Misty help who still guided him and helped how to become better, encouraged to work harder and comforted after harsh loses or bad experiences giving him lot of moral support.
    Basically the same sorts of things as in Kanto. The big problem with the original series overall is repetition to be honest. The same developments would be played out again and again. How many times did they do Kasumi and her sisters not getting along until the end of the episode episodes? Though the whole show struggles with this to various degrees I think it that Jouto is worse than others... (though maybe not as badly as some fans tend to suggest.)

  7. #187
    DJ Mary #1 Fan! GoldFromNewBarkTown's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Well, I see people are talking a lot about the fillers and stuff, but the amount of fillers thing is a problem of every single continent since Johto! at least for me. I really enjoyed the anime, mainly the last of the 3 seasons in Johto. I do think that Johto could be way more nice if the writers enjoyed more all the interesting things of the continent and it's mythology and all, but the anime was fine anyway. The manga is awesome, i really like the gold, silver & crystal chapter in the manga (anyone can tell it here :p). And the games were my favourite, a little above Platinum. I think Johto really worth it.

  8. #188
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Madame Pika View Post
    I don't consider it her only enjoyable trait. I consider it her main enjoyable trait (especially in terms of attracting interest in her character). I just felt that most of her other enjoyable traits (which in my opinion were badly focused on throughout, ill developed and sometimes contradictory in presentation in a way I don't see as ambiguous) had little to do with Jouto and would have led to off topic discussion that I don't wish to go into.
    That's fine, but way i see it temper was present consistently through whole region in more subtle, "grown up manner " you could say. In Johto as result of growth she was less temperament and loud, but was still brimming with spunk not letting others to put her down . As noticed in eruptions over trainers which made fun of her like Andreas or Dorian, in unexpected situations which pushed her buttons like revelation of being Gyarados in horoscope, in fights with Ash whenever they got lost in forest or desert landscape. When battling in tournament or for pokemon. Being freaked out when getting surrounded by bugs. Coming up with biting sarcastic inputs when commenting on Brock obsession over girls and yelling at him for not being more subtle, TR failure recognizing them behind their disguised clothes etc.

    As for other traits which defined her i don't think they were badly focused on though, because we got to see her caring, romantic and strong willed, adventurous side consistently. Like her obsession over cute stuff like Teddiursa, Snubull, Wooper, big fire and determination wanting to become water master, frequent joking,sarcastic comments and anger outbursts she provided about Ash appetite and tendency to forget things like signing up for tournament or delivering important errands like GS ball, Brock and others they met on road etc.
    .
    She started out as short tempered girl exploding over everything trying to cover up her own lack of confidence with temper,with time gradually growing in more mature and level headed character which came to expression most during Johto saga while keeping enjoyable traits remaining quirky and tomboyish with writers eventually finding right balance between tough and softer side imo.

    Main issue i had with character in Johto wasn't personality, but lack of focus and screen time where she could shine and show her qualities on frequent basis.Something which was problem from which not only she, but Ash, Brock, Gary, even TR suffered at times suffered making them seem less active than they really are.

    Along with development Misty got not being treated as consistent on going plot(though in Master Quest they made step in right direction). But when she got spotlight she was stll highly entertaining as character there

    So while i respect your opinion, in my book she stayed equally fun after maturity in Johto and later in chronicles because of new dimensions which were added making her more rich without losing charm.

    I know there's evidence that they found out that no one had any problems with Takeshi and his eyes, but I've never seen anything to suggest that he was that popular. I've seen this claim a few times and I'm curious at if there's anything I've missed.
    Not sure if it was popularity so much, but more that writers after finding out how fans had no issues with Brock design decided to give him another chance and withdrawn their decision of replacing character for something which showed to be unreasonable fear in end.
    Along with wanting to do sequel with group which was established, well liked and still fresh at that point.

    Basically the same sorts of things as in Kanto. The big problem with the original series overall is repetition to be honest. The same developments would be played out again and again. How many times did they do Kasumi and her sisters not getting along until the end of the episode episodes? Though the whole show struggles with this to various degrees I think it that Jouto is worse than others... (though maybe not as badly as some fans tend to suggest.)
    Not as much as its case with newer regions to me which just recycle overused ideas and moments we seen several times before.
    Though ill readily admit how good chunk of Johto episodes which revolved around character of day and his or pokemon issues did started to make things predictable probably contributing to drop of people interest.

    Despite that, Johto was always heavily underrated as saga in my opinion having several memorable moments i always like to go back and watch being one of best episodes and arcs in anime history.
    Chemistry between Ash,Misty and Brock was just as great working out as group of long time friends starting to mature a bit. Misty humor and sarcasm being mixed with tomboyish attitude, Ash naivete and stubbornness and Brock's wise and sometimes uncontrollable attitude(mostly over girls) complimented each other well.
    Battles were generally better with Ash gym match against Clair, Chuck, Morty or Jasmine, Whirl Cup, battle against JJM trio at battle park etc being one of best battles we ever had. Ill put Totodile duel in there too for fantastic humor Misty and Ash brought.

    And i truly enjoyed in mini arcs like Red Gyarados, Lugia three part, Whirl Cup, Larvitar , Clair and 100 year old Dragonite arc etc.
    As well several episodes focusing on Misty, Brock, TR and flesh out of their characters. Such as " Fortune Hunters" about pokemon horoscope, "Forest Grumps" where James and Meowth got stuck with Misty and Jessie with Ash and Brock having to work together and escape from Ursaring". "Heartbreak of Brock"where Brock almost got married, "Unbearable" where Misty was deceived by Teddiursa charm fiercely defending her, "Wired for Battle" where Heracross was involved in fierce battle against Scizor. And many, many more.

  9. #189
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Satoshi Da Ze View Post
    What ruined Joutou for me was the over-abundance of fillers, Takeshi looking like he was just accompanying them because, Kasumi constantly bickering or offending Satoshi for no reason like she was paid to be annoying or looking like she had her soul absorbed by the togepi she was always carrying around. The Rocket-dan attacks were just the worse too. They weren't BW serious, but the writers tried too hard into making them the antagonists. And their attacks took too long minutes of each episode. I remember clearly that many episodes had 2~3 attacks...
    The only good thing in Joutou IMO was that they finally gave actual battles to the Gyms.
    Kanto's GYM batttles, or just battles, were very few. So at least Joutou had that done better...
    On the other hand Kanto obviously handled Kasumi and Takeshi much better as they were still "fresh" back then.
    Dunno, to me it seemed like Brock received better treatment and more focus in Johto compared to Kanto. He was fairly active as character injecting lighthearted humor, and fun interactions in main cast having many memorable moments when either he developed or influenced someone else story.
    Developed as breeder by learning to prepare new medicines and potions, exchanging his knowledge with other breeders, applied his attainment in taking care of various pokemon like Stantler, hurt Houndoom, Sudowoodo, helped Totodile to win over Azumarill etc.

    While still giving Ash advices and helped to prepare strategy(especially in league or prior to big tournaments), helping them to navigate way to new towns, entered breeding contest with Suzie, raised Pineco to Fortress and Zubat to Crobat With Brock trying to seduce girls being flirty toward them, in his fights with Ash over pokemon like Donphan and who is gonna catch it etc. Or his nervousness trying to run away from marrying Temaku, in his eccentric behavior licking other pokemon like Sudowudo etc.

    Same applies to Misty which entered various competitions like Seaking contest, Whirl Cup, Ballon and Alto Mare race. Learn how to understand water pokemon better through Marill, her Poliwhirl or Psyduck becoming more tolerant toward it. Became more patient and mature getting over complex of inferiority helping others with same issue like Sakura. Had several memorable interactions with various characters like Egan or Dorian, battled a lot more compared to Kanto, Contributed to resolution of plots in various episodes befriending Hoot Hoot finding way out of forest allowing them to reach Newbark city,took initiative in breaking Arbok mecha and save Pikachu and Togepi, borrowed Ash her water pokemon to enter fire distinguish competition, .
    Etc, etc.

    As matter of fact she became less aggressive to Ash compared to Kanto not scolding Ash over everything reflecting maturity and growth she wen t through as character.

    She became more tolerant and closer to Ash and Brock appreciating their friendship playfully joking with them, sometimes getting in to clash but also showing lot of moral support and concern when either of them was in danger. Whether it was helping Brock about love issues and girls like Temaku, when he got sick taking care of his pokemon, when Ninetales deceived him etc. Or Ash comforting him when he lost important battle, left his pokemon at special training like Charizard, when Gary mocked him, helping him to prepare strategies before entering tournaments like Whirl Cup, grass tournament or league providing lot of moral support and encouragement being by his side. While talking with them about dreams and personal wishes having laugh and fun together.
    While still being tomboyish and rebellious, full of adventurous spirit liking to experiment having rich personality.

    In reality i missed her flamboyant dynamic when she left cast leaving before her time with lot of things about her story and dreams like water master goal ending unfinished and underdeveloped.

    As such looking back personally i had no issues with main cast in Johto still enjoying in Ash, Brock and Misty as characters coming of as enjoyable when having chance to shine, along with creating close bond building on friendship(which came to expression most in departure episode).

    My main problem with this region was more with lack of direction for writers to take anime forward at that time, too many fillers and drop of promising plots like GS ball damaging main cast chance to get more focus and role to play.
    I felt Brock was excellent until Sinnoh. Even in Hoenn and Battle Frontier, he still felt like he was getting decent treatment and I liked that he caught a lot of water types there like Marshtomp and Ludicolo. It was a nice addition to his already varied stable of Pokémon.

    Really, he was my second favorite character until Sinnoh...

  10. #190
    Registered User Pikacuh's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by EmotionalTensionPKMN View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Misty Calls Masquerain View Post
    Speaking of Sinnoh, Phanpy was caught late? So was Gible.
    Totodile and Cyndaquil didn't evolve? Neither did Buizel.
    Exactly. We can do this same thing for all the regions. I don't get why everyone continues to single Johto out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post

    Bayleef was pretty decent and Cyndaquil was used pretty often in Gym battles, so aside from evolving, they were okay. Totodile really didn't battle much. It defeated a Kindra, but it won more due to luck than its strength and I only remember it winning two other battles. It never won a Gym battle either.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmotionalTensionPKMN
    His Noctowl was EXCELLENT, IMO. Served him very well in his gym battles.
    Noctowl was used in only two Gym battles and it was only good in the battle against Morty. The match against Clair showed that even with its Confusion attack, it still couldn't put much of a dent in Kingdra. I liked its personality and it stood out more than some Ash's other Flying types, but it definitely could have been used more often.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmotionalTensionPKMN
    Now, his Phanpy was a baby Pokémon, so of course it would be underdeveloped at the time. It was still quite tough for being a baby Pokémon as well.

    I can only see 2/6 of the members of his Johto team arguably being underdeveloped...the other 4/6 were more than acceptable, IMO.

    Really, guys? You want me to discuss to what degree Sinnoh was flawed? I could go on all day there. :P
    Phaphy could have done more if it was introduced earlier. Bayleef and Cyndaquil were the only Johto Pokemon that were handled decently in my opinion. Totodile, Noctowl and Phanpy needed more battles to develop and Ash needed to drop Bulbasaur a lot sooner than the actually did. I realize that this is a comparison with Johto and Sinnoh, but please try to remain on topic since this is about about what flawed Johto was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Misty Calls Masquerain View Post
    Speaking of Sinnoh, Phanpy was caught late? So was Gible.
    Totodile and Cyndaquil didn't evolve? Neither did Buizel.
    There's a significant difference with Gible and Phanpy. Despite being introduced late, Gible actually had pretty decent screentime with its training with Draco Meteor and had a bit more personality. Phanpy didn't really do much of anything after it was caught. As for Buizel, even though it didn't evolve, it was still strong and had a good amount of screentime, similar to Cyndaquil, even though I still would have preferred for it to evolve during Johto. Totodile, on the other hand, really didn't have nearly as much screentime as it should have had.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmotionalTensionPKMN View Post
    Exactly. We can do this same thing for all the regions. I don't get why everyone continues to single Johto out.
    Except that those cases are clearly different and I already tried to explain why there's a thread about Johto's flaws, which apparently was useless, but I'll try in a different way. The general fanbase just focuses more on Johto's flaws than what happens in other series most likely due to a combination of how they've had over a decade to focus on Johto's problems and how the other sagas generally have offered some improvements even if they contain similarities to Johto's flaws. I like Johto and I don't think that it's nearly as bad as the general fanbase makes it out to be, but it definitely has a lot of flaws.
    Johto is not being single out, people just have mixed veiws on the Jotho series and not everyone is saying that it is horrible, but Bayleef, Cyndaquil, and Totodile were handled perfectly well in battles and they did have great development aswell as Ash, Misty and Brock did have. Noctowl & Phanpy could have been used a little bit more but they wasn't.

    AG started this terrible trend of Ash starting out with just Pikachu and no it's not a good thing either, it was more better when Ash would take a few pokemon with hm to a new region instead of leaving them behind lke they weren't nothing important, i mean the Hoenn series wasn't all that great because May was annoying and Max was the worst character to ever be added to the show.
    Last edited by Pikacuh; 16th July 2013 at 05:25 AM.
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  11. #191
    Because I can. Caseydia's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    I think the initial problem with Johto is we all thought it was going to keep Kanto's sense of adventure, humor and slight darkness. But it didn't. Johto was clearly toned down from what had come before it, and everything that people loved about Kanto felt like it was being eradicated over the course of the Johto arc. I suppose the problem with Johto is the writers didn't exactly know what they wanted to do with it. It was only the second full region they ever did, not counting Orange Islands, and the only thing on their mind at the time was, "OK Tracey is gone and we brought Brock back, that's all we needed to do."
    I'm not really a johto fan but this I have to comment on. First of all, I was a kid too when I watched the Kanto series and I didn't feel it was that dark. And johto had it's funny parts as well and the show is always an adventure. The only reason it seemed fresh in Kanto was because it was the first series ever made. But the show itself has always been an adventure. As far as Tracey is concerned, it would have been nice if they kept him over Brock. Due to maybe his Scyther evolving or something along that line. Either that or replace the two since they were either doing all that much.

    1. The abrupt departures of Charizard and Squirtle, yet keeping Bulbasaur through the 6th Gym. They should have either left them all behind at once or gradually phased them out closer together. Of course at the time it seemed like Charizard and Squirtle were released like Pidgeot, thank god that didn't happen.
    I agree. It would have been better if he had started with just catching the johto pokemon and training them only. That way they could have gotten either more better wins or just more better development. However, if Ash were to have left Bulbasaur and the others at the lab doesn't mean it's like a release. He didn't need them plus his johto pokemon.

    2. The dropping of the GS ball. Yes we know why they did it, but it was still horrible.
    I don't know why people consider this as a flaw. I kind of forgot about the GS ball myself due to the fillers on Johto. But that itself doesn't make it horrible. The writers probably didn't know what to do for it, so why not drop it instead of making up crap anyway?

    3. Poor handing of Ash's Johto team. Only Bayleef was really handled decently. Cyndaquil and Totodile both deserved to evolve but never did, Noctowl/Heracross/Phanpy didn't get much proper screentime.
    True. My answer to that is from question one.

    4. Too many fillers. Johto has more filler than any other arc, and almost ALL OF IT is exactly the same. This is where Ash started helping COTD's non-stop and TR just stole Pikachu in every episode.
    Ofcourse. That's just not Johto, that's in IS, Sinnoh between the seventh and eighth gym and now in "Da". It probably will still be that way until the show's over.

    5. Misty and Brock were mishandled. If you watch Best Wishes, you know exactly what they should have done with Misty and Brock:
    Not really. Misty and Brock had different goals and different personalities. Plus they've been on longer than probably Iris and Cilan will.

    - Misty and Brock had no rivals
    Considering that they barley did anything pertaining to their own goals, I bet it would have worked any better than having Casey as a recurring character.

    - They rarely engaged in battle
    Considering that back in Kanto after they had left their gyms that they barely battled in the first place. Johto was just an extention of that.
    And in IS(water and islands), Misty herself barely participated there as well as johto.

    That being said Brock was still funny in Johto, so I'll cut him some slack. The original trio didn't have as good chemistry as in kanto, but it was overall decent.
    Their chemistry didn't seem like it had changed all that much in Johto. They were barely all that close in Kanto either.

    6. The Gym battles were better than Kanto's. Nothing too amazing. Whitney's Gym was just ridiculous though.
    The gyms themselves aren't really flaws of Johto. Atleast they got done and weren't given as pity badges and left unfinished.

    8. Gary was mishandled. This is the last time Gary was the main rival, and we only see him 3 times before the league? Really, writers?
    Flawed indeed. Maybe because Gary wasn't all that present in the G/S/C games?

    9. Although this is minor, Ash keeping his Kanto clothes. They got old by this point.
    Well considered that Red's clothes didn't really change all that much until LG/FR, they probably felt to keep them. But is that really a flaw or just something to nick pick at?

    10. Almost 60-70% of the saga is skippable and you won't miss anything important. If I can skip that many episodes and I feel like I'm not missing anything story wise or development wise, then there is a problem.
    Well, I had watched all of Johto and you wouldn't really know unless you actually skipped 60% of those episodes. But I wouldn't ask someone to skip any episodes of any pokemon saga because you could really miss some cool episodes in between.

    12. Misty holding Togepi for the entire span of Johto was the worst mistake the writers made with the character. It limited Misty's involvement in the saga and Togepi itself just became boring and pointless. Can you believe a female protagonist basically held an egg all saga? Why didn't we get Togetic back here?
    To answer the first half of the question, Togepi sat on Misty's lap in the IS as well. I doubt this is only Johto's flaw. To answer the other half, I liked Gyrados in her team more than Togetic because it made sense at the time. Togetic was okay but Misty was a water trainer so it seemed like it suited her more in my view. But can you blame the writers for not bringing it back. She probably would have stilled babied it.

    13. Team Rocket. They adapted a few TR parts from the games, but not all of them. Giovanni should have had a bigger role in this saga.
    Team Rocket as far as Jessie and James really didn't do much. The Team Rocket at Lake Rage was the one that did more than their entire run. And it was really sad to see them fail after that.

    But overall I love your views on Johto. I laugh each time I read them.
    Last edited by Caseydia; 17th July 2013 at 11:02 AM.

  12. #192
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pikacuh View Post
    Johto is not being single out, people just have mixed veiws on the Jotho series and not everyone is saying that it is horrible, but Bayleef, Cyndaquil, and Totodile were handled perfectly well in battles and they did have great development aswell as Ash, Misty and Brock did have. Noctowl & Phanpy could have been used a little bit more but they wasn't.
    I don't think that Totodile was handled perfectly well in battle or had great development. It rarely battled, especially compared to the other Johto starters, and definitely could have benefited from getting more battles. I agree that Bayleef and Cyndaquil were handled well, even though I still would have preferred for Cyndaquil to evolve in Johto instead of Sinnoh. Noctowl and Phanpy could have used more screentime too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pikacuh
    AG started this terrible trend of Ash starting out with just Pikachu and no it's not a good thing either, it was more better when Ash would take a few pokemon with hm to a new region instead of leaving them behind lke they weren't nothing important, i mean the Hoenn series wasn't all that great because May was annoying and Max was the worst character to ever be added to the show.
    I actually like that Ash starts out with just Pikachu. He leaves his Pokemon behind so he can start off fresh with a new team, not because they weren't important. I still think that bringing the Kanto starters along in Johto was a big mistake. Aside from Charizard, they didn't really do anything. Squirtle and Bulbasuar just took up space, even though Squirtle wasn't around as long as Bulbasaur was, and that just made it longer for Ash to capture his Johto Pokemon. If he left for Johto just with Pikachu, Heracross could have been around longer, possibly getting a Gym battle, he would have caught Cyndaquil, Totodile and Noctowl a bit earlier and Phanpy probably would have been caught a bit earlier in the series too, assuming that Ash eventually sent Heracross to Professor Oak. They don't seem any interest in repeating the same mistake they did with Johto, although they might see it more as a chance to promote the newest Pokemon sooner rather than a mistake, but I'm glad Ash starts out each series with just Pikachu now.
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    If the writers had Ash not leave all his Pokémon behind at Oak's ranch, the writers would have to come up with different reasons for him to get rid of each old member of his team which was exactly what happened in Johto, lest they just say "screw it" and have Ash unceremoniously deposit one of his Pokémon each time he catches a new one [but I guess that kinda happens when he rotates Pokémon in BW, right?] Otherwise, the writers would have to make Gym Leaders ridiculously overpowered [read: 1st leader Falkner and his Pidgeot. Since Dodrio was used against Pikachu, I dunno if I should count it.]
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    Kanto's Route 23 doesn't exist in the Johto games!


    My ideas for a more game-faithful Best Wishes! series.

    The Jewel Party

  14. #194
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post

    I don't think that Totodile was handled perfectly well in battle or had great development. It rarely battled, especially compared to the other Johto starters, and definitely could have benefited from getting more battles. I agree that Bayleef and Cyndaquil were handled well, even though I still would have preferred for Cyndaquil to evolve in Johto instead of Sinnoh. Noctowl and Phanpy could have used more screentime too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pikacuh
    AG started this terrible trend of Ash starting out with just Pikachu and no it's not a good thing either, it was more better when Ash would take a few pokemon with hm to a new region instead of leaving them behind lke they weren't nothing important, i mean the Hoenn series wasn't all that great because May was annoying and Max was the worst character to ever be added to the show.
    I actually like that Ash starts out with just Pikachu. He leaves his Pokemon behind so he can start off fresh with a new team, not because they weren't important. I still think that bringing the Kanto starters along in Johto was a big mistake. Aside from Charizard, they didn't really do anything. Squirtle and Bulbasuar just took up space, even though Squirtle wasn't around as long as Bulbasaur was, and that just made it longer for Ash to capture his Johto Pokemon. If he left for Johto just with Pikachu, Heracross could have been around longer, possibly getting a Gym battle, he would have caught Cyndaquil, Totodile and Noctowl a bit earlier and Phanpy probably would have been caught a bit earlier in the series too, assuming that Ash eventually sent Heracross to Professor Oak. They don't seem any interest in repeating the same mistake they did with Johto, although they might see it more as a chance to promote the newest Pokemon sooner rather than a mistake, but I'm glad Ash starts out each series with just Pikachu now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ambipom666 View Post
    If the writers had Ash not leave all his Pokémon behind at Oak's ranch, the writers would have to come up with different reasons for him to get rid of each old member of his team which was exactly what happened in Johto, lest they just say "screw it" and have Ash unceremoniously deposit one of his Pokémon each time he catches a new one [but I guess that kinda happens when he rotates Pokémon in BW, right?] Otherwise, the writers would have to make Gym Leaders ridiculously overpowered [read: 1st leader Falkner and his Pidgeot. Since Dodrio was used against Pikachu, I dunno if I should count it.]
    I don't mind that Ash starts out with just Pikachu when he goes to a new region, but this trend is starting get old and stale really fast and the writers know it. Ash taking the Kanto Starters to Johto wasn't a mistake because the writers had everything plan for how Johto was meant to be, to me Johto is both overrated and underrated at the same time.

    Ash, Misty and Brock, had great focus on and development throughout Johto, even Team Rocket and Gary had some good focus on in Johto aswell, as far as i know Totodile did have some great battles, and proved him self to be strong , Bayleef was a great powerhouses battler, and Cyndaquil is another great well train powehouses battler because it did really well in the Gym battles, Phanpy was a really great strong pokemon and it's personality was great.
    Last edited by Pikacuh; 17th July 2013 at 12:49 AM.
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  15. #195
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pikacuh View Post
    I don't mind that Ash starts out with just Pikachu when he goes to a new region, but this trend is starting get old and stale really fast and the writers know it. Ash taking the Kanto Starters to Johto wasn't a mistake because the writers had everything plan for how Johto was meant to be, to me Johto is both overrated and underrated at the same time.
    I can understand seeing that tread as getting old and stale, but I still think it's better than the Johto method of bringing in his older Pokemon, setting up episodes for their departures and just basically delaying the inevitable. I do think that bringing in the Kanto starters to Johto was a mistake. I don't know how much of Johto they planned out in advanced, especially the middle and later parts of the saga, but even if they planned it out for how they wanted it to be, that doesn't mean that they couldn't make mistakes. Like I said, bringing in the Kanto starters was a mistake since aside from Charizard, they just took up space and made it longer for Ash to capture more Johto Pokemon. Jumping right into needing to capture Johto Pokemong to give Ash a full team could have helped with their development and given them more screentime. I think that the main reason why they haven't repeated that choice probably has more to do with wanting to promote the newest Pokemon sooner rather than later and they might not see it as a mistake per say, but I still don't think that they have any desire to go the Johto route again. I find Johto to be more underrated than anything else myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pikacuh
    Ash, Misty and Brock, had great focus on and development throughout Johto, even Team Rocket and Gary had some good focus on in Johto aswell, as far as i know Totodile did have some great battles, and proved him self to be strong , Bayleef was a great powerhouses battler, and Cyndaquil is another great well train powehouses battler because it did really well in the Gym battles, Phanpy was a really great strong pokemon and it's personality was great.
    Ash did get some good development and Misty and Brock at least got more focus in Johto than they did in Kanto, which may not say much. Team Rocket had some enjoyable moments, but Gary barely appeared in Johto. Most of his development was off-screen and his change at the end of Johto was really sudden at least in part due to how little focus he had been given over the course of the saga. Totodile rarely battled. It lost the only Gym battle it was ever in and I only recall it winning three matches in the course of the saga, unless we're counting Team Rocket battles but I don't think anyone counts that in terms of a Pokemon's strength. As much as I like Totodile and think it was adorable, it was easily Ash's weakest Pokemon on his Johto team. I wouldn't consider Bayleef or Cyndaquil powerhouses. They're definitely good battlers, but when I think of powerhouses, I think of something more like Ash's Charizard or Infernape. They were still solid battlers and aside from Cyndaquil not evolving, I thought that they were handled pretty well. I didn't mind Bayleef not evolving so much since Cyndaquil was in a lot more Gym battles. Phanpy didn't really seem that strong in Johto. It wasn't weak, but it didn't really have much time to showcase an impressive amount of strength compared to say Gible from DP. It left a better impression on me when it returned in the BF arc. Personality wise, Phanpy didn't do much for me either, but that could also be due to how little focus it got. Its debut episode was pretty good though.
    Ambipom666 likes this.

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