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  1. #151
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    There's a reason why Bulbasaur and Chikorita co-existed in Johto all the way till the end of the 6th Gym. The writers didn't want to get rid of all of Ash's Kanto starters so quickly.

    This is also why Charizard came back in the 3rd movie, which originally aired only a few months after it left. Then Charizard came back again for the 8th Gym and league, along with Squirtle.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    There's a reason why Bulbasaur and Chikorita co-existed in Johto all the way till the end of the 6th Gym. The writers didn't want to get rid of all of Ash's Kanto starters so quickly.

    This is also why Charizard came back in the 3rd movie, which originally aired only a few months after it left. Then Charizard came back again for the 8th Gym and league, along with Squirtle.

    That doesn't make any sense. They already gotten rid of Charizard and Squirtle relatively early in Johto and Bulbasaur didn't do anything but take up space on Ash's team. If Bulbasaur was more active on Ash's team beyond a couple of filler episodes and helping out with its Vine Whip, then I could believe that, but there was absolutely no reason to keep Bulbasaur around for that long. I think it's more likely that they couldn't think of a way of getting rid of Bulbasaur for the longest time and/or couldn't think of a Pokemon to replace it on Ash's team. They came back before due to their popularity and the fact that they couldn't think of a way to help make Ash's Johto team stronger.
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  3. #153
    Uchuuuuu KITAAAA!!! Duque's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    It was pretty the same way that Kanto's team was treated: Ash's team was basically pikachu + starters + the bloody "useful" pidgeotto. Period. They just didn't know what to do with a 6th pokemon on his team. In Johto, bulbasaur filled a slot for the sake of it, nothing more.

    Well, back to the topic, about my general points:

    - The gym battles were WEAK. Except for Falkner and maybe Pryce (the only good point of the Blackthorn arc was the berserk dragonite episode);
    - The protagonist's team was static. On Ash's side, after replace his old starters and complete the Johto team, only chikorita evolved (and no meganium until the end). No new capture until phanpy made me wish both aipom and gligar were caught there. Even Misty and Brock had better changes, with politoad, corsola, crobat and forrestress;
    - Many boring plots to introduce a pokemon (especially the previous gen pokemon) + boring Team Rocket gags = 30 weekly minutes of free boredom.

    Despite this, I recognize Johto have some of the best fillers of all generations. Some of them (beside the pidgey-to-the-moon and the old noctowl ones), like Iwane's gligarman, charizard's goodbye, smoochum, red gyarados, totodile's debut and duplica's return are enjoyable. So, while Johto was flawed in many aspects, not everything was mud.
    Man, when you stop to think of it DP did have some crap in it. Its just that when people think about DP, they only remember Paul, Pokehunter J/Galactic and all the Gyms and Contests episodes....basically the good parts.
    And... there are actually a lot of BW episodes that have pissed me off. By this point it'd be easier to just list the ones that I can stand to watch. The more the series progresses, the more the writing of these episodes piss me off.

  4. #154
    Registered User CyberCubed's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Johto has lots of flaws. The handling of Ash's team, the way Misty and Brock were treated, and all the fillers that Johto had were some of the flaws that I can think of. The battles were better though.

  5. #155
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Gonna get flamed, but gotta say it: It's flawed to the same degree as Sinnoh was in terms of fillers. You may not notice it, guys, but there's not a huge difference between watching someone train using the same tired old spin and counter shield techniques, and watching them help out a Pokémon every episode, you know.
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  6. #156
    Moderator Hidden Mew's Avatar Forum Head
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by EmotionalTensionPKMN View Post
    Gonna get flamed, but gotta say it: It's flawed to the same degree as Sinnoh was in terms of fillers. You may not notice it, guys, but there's not a huge difference between watching someone train using the same tired old spin and counter shield techniques, and watching them help out a Pokémon every episode, you know.
    I disagree. With the training episodes, most of the techniques they learned played a significant role in some future match. The Counter Shield was especially important in how Ash was able to defeat Fantina and it came up a couple of times with his battles against Paul. Not all of the techniques used were important, but they also showed that the Pokemon were making progress, which also allowed for their victories to be more believable and satisfying to see for the audience. The main difference between episodes where they're training different techniques and episodes where they help the Pokemon/character of the week is that there is a sense of progress with their strength and their trainers' skills and in my opinion, that's a pretty significant difference between the two. I still enjoy a good portion of the Johto filler episodes and I don't think that the saga is that bad at all, but the fillers do weaken the pacing and there isn't much, if any, progress being made in them.

  7. #157
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by EmotionalTensionPKMN View Post
    Gonna get flamed, but gotta say it: It's flawed to the same degree as Sinnoh was in terms of fillers. You may not notice it, guys, but there's not a huge difference between watching someone train using the same tired old spin and counter shield techniques, and watching them help out a Pokémon every episode, you know.
    I disagree. With the training episodes, most of the techniques they learned played a significant role in some future match. The Counter Shield was especially important in how Ash was able to defeat Fantina and it came up a couple of times with his battles against Paul. Not all of the techniques used were important, but they also showed that the Pokemon were making progress, which also allowed for their victories to be more believable and satisfying to see for the audience. The main difference between episodes where they're training different techniques and episodes where they help the Pokemon/character of the week is that there is a sense of progress with their strength and their trainers' skills and in my opinion, that's a pretty significant difference between the two. I still enjoy a good portion of the Johto filler episodes and I don't think that the saga is that bad at all, but the fillers do weaken the pacing and there isn't much, if any, progress being made in them.
    I didn't mind all of the episodes where Ash and company were training in Sinnoh, but to me there isn't a big difference between the two. Both could get fairly annoying in large amounts, IMO. Again, that's just me, though.
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  8. #158
    Moderator Hidden Mew's Avatar Forum Head
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by EmotionalTensionPKMN View Post
    I didn't mind all of the episodes where Ash and company were training in Sinnoh, but to me there isn't a big difference between the two. Both could get fairly annoying in large amounts, IMO. Again, that's just me, though.
    I can understand why they would get annoying to you in large amounts, but I still think that the actual progression in both the Pokemon's strength and the trainer's skills would be a big difference between the Johto fillers were no progression actually happens.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    What I can't understand is what people feel went so "terribly" wrong in Johto out of all the regions that this region is the only one where we are allowed to talk about the flaws it had. I'm well aware some of you didn't like the filler, but it doesn't warrant a whole topic worth of discussion alone. Can we make a topic about how flawed Kanto, OI, Hoenn, BF, Sinnoh, and Unova were too, by this logic? :P

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    The main problem I had with Johto was lack of development for Ash's Johto starter pokemon. Since he brought his Kanto starters with him it felt that they overshadowed the Johto ones. I don't think he really needed Bulbasaur and Chikorita on his team at the same time. Squirtle and Charizard left pretty early in Johto but Bulbasaur just took up space pretty much. Chikorita/Bayleef is the only one of Ash's Johto starters that got a decent personality and that was because of her crush on him.

    Then you got Misty and Brock who were reduced to moving background for a good number of episodes. That's the other thing that bugs me. Johto would have been the perfect time for Togepi to evolve into Togetic, but instead it just sat in Misty's arms for a majority of the Johto episodes. I don't get why that was the only Togepi to be shown in the anime at that point. I get it Kanto that it was supposed to be rare, but Johto is the region Togepi comes from, so why was that one the only one shown? We didn't get to see Togetic until Hoenn. I really wished that Togepi evolved earlier, because then you could show off another Johto region pokemon in the anime.

    The last thing that really bugged me was Gary's very few appearances. He's supposed to be Ash's rival and yet he was only in a handful of episodes. Altogether he and Ash battled twice in Johto, counting the League. It would have been nice to see Gary appear more since the guy was Ash's main rival back then and especially since they never battled once Kanto or the Indigo League. That's why I liked how they handled Paul in DP. He got more appearances and more battles with Ash than Gary did.
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  11. #161
    Face of mercy? NOPE Yato's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Probably said this before, but Youngster Joey wasn't in the show. The biggest flaw EVER

  12. #162
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by EmotionalTensionPKMN View Post
    What I can't understand is what people feel went so "terribly" wrong in Johto out of all the regions that this region is the only one where we are allowed to talk about the flaws it had. I'm well aware some of you didn't like the filler, but it doesn't warrant a whole topic worth of discussion alone. Can we make a topic about how flawed Kanto, OI, Hoenn, BF, Sinnoh, and Unova were too, by this logic? :P
    The fillers aren't the only the only reason why there's a thread on Johto's flaws. That tends to be what a lot of people focus on, but there are other problems like Ash's underdeveloped Johto team, relying on his Kanto Pokemon starting from the eighth badge, Ash's rivalry with Gary having little focus, the GS Ball being dropped completely, Misty and Brock, while having more focus than they did in Kanto, still being just there. Out of all the sagas, Johto is the one that comes up the most in regards to its flaws and clearly, people aren't complaining about Johto simply because of its fillers. Acting like that is the only reason why there is a discussion on Johto would be ignoring all of the other points and flaws brought up in this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charbok
    The main problem I had with Johto was lack of development for Ash's Johto starter pokemon. Since he brought his Kanto starters with him it felt that they overshadowed the Johto ones. I don't think he really needed Bulbasaur and Chikorita on his team at the same time. Squirtle and Charizard left pretty early in Johto but Bulbasaur just took up space pretty much. Chikorita/Bayleef is the only one of Ash's Johto starters that got a decent personality and that was because of her crush on him.
    Yeah, aside from a couple of filler episodes, Bulbasaur didn't really do much and really just took up space for nearly all of Johto. I still would have preferred if they didn't have Ash bring his Kanto Pokemon to Johto. It could have helped out with the development for his Johto starters, especially when he wouldn't end up relying on them for the Johto League. I thought that Cyndaquil and Totodile had pretty decent personalities too, but Chikorita/Bayleef had more personality due to her crush on Ash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charbok
    Then you got Misty and Brock who were reduced to moving background for a good number of episodes. That's the other thing that bugs me. Johto would have been the perfect time for Togepi to evolve into Togetic, but instead it just sat in Misty's arms for a majority of the Johto episodes. I don't get why that was the only Togepi to be shown in the anime at that point. I get it Kanto that it was supposed to be rare, but Johto is the region Togepi comes from, so why was that one the only one shown? We didn't get to see Togetic until Hoenn. I really wished that Togepi evolved earlier, because then you could show off another Johto region pokemon in the anime.
    Maybe they wanted to make Misty's Togepi look more special if they didn't show any other Togepi. I agree that it would have been nice if Togepi had evolved during Johto. It would have been better than just staying in Misty's arms.

  13. #163
    It's Detective Time! Cilan's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Ash's Johto starters being underdeveloped is definitely a big one. I didn't mind him bringing Squirtle and Charizard since they were sent off in the end anyway, but Bulbasaur really didn't need to stick around especially after he got Chikorita. The only things I really remember about Ash's Johto starters was Chikorita's crush, Totodile's hyper personality, and Cyndaquil not being able to light the flames on its back easily. At least they had it evolve in Sinnoh but I wish they did more with the Johto starters.


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  14. #164
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cilan View Post
    Ash's Johto starters being underdeveloped is definitely a big one. I didn't mind him bringing Squirtle and Charizard since they were sent off in the end anyway, but Bulbasaur really didn't need to stick around especially after he got Chikorita. The only things I really remember about Ash's Johto starters was Chikorita's crush, Totodile's hyper personality, and Cyndaquil not being able to light the flames on its back easily. At least they had it evolve in Sinnoh but I wish they did more with the Johto starters.
    Squirtle took up unnecessary space as well, but they got rid of it much earlier than they did with Bulbasaur. Charizard was the only Kanto starter that actually did anything to make its inclusion warranted and even then, I would have preferred for all three of them to stay at Professor Oak's lab. Cynadquil had a more laid-back personality compared to Totodile and Chikorita/Bayleef. I would have preferred for Cyndaquil to evolve in Johto. I still remember thinking that it was able to evolve after it defeated Steelix, but it didn't. It would have made sense because of how often it was used in battle compared to Ash's other Johto Pokemon.

  15. #165
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Unlike many of you, I had no problem with Ash's supposedly "underdeveloped" Johto team.

    Hoenn and Sinnoh are not the holy grail of end-all-be-all, guys. That being said, I'd still rather Hoenn than Sinnoh (and Unova too), but besides the point.

    His Chikorita evolved into a Bayleef later on, and I feel it held its own pretty well in its battles.

    His Totodile took out a Kingdra. That's one tough Pokémon to me.

    His Cyndaquil was the second weakest link to me, yet it was still able to take out a Skarmory at one point.

    His Noctowl was EXCELLENT, IMO. Served him very well in his gym battles.

    Now, his Phanpy was a baby Pokémon, so of course it would be underdeveloped at the time. It was still quite tough for being a baby Pokémon as well.

    I can only see 2/6 of the members of his Johto team arguably being underdeveloped...the other 4/6 were more than acceptable, IMO.

    Really, guys? You want me to discuss to what degree Sinnoh was flawed? I could go on all day there. :P

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