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  1. #136
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caseydia View Post
    Actually, I would have loved it more if Charizard, Bulbasaur and Squirtle was left back at professor oaks so that the Johto pokemon would have had more battle time on screen instead of being left in certain places with certain people. That to me would have been better.

    And for one note, the Bellossom episode was needed to debute the new pokemon for that region. So was the Hoppip and the Wooper one as well. What they needed to get rid of some of those kanto pokemon based ones like the Pidgey flying to the moon, the stupid surfing Rhydon, the Marril episode was of no real use, so that could have gone; Tunnel Vision was stupid, The zubat episode in the castle and not to mention the Arcanine episode didn't have to happen either. not only didn't Ash get a fire stone on the end but it ended up being a bunch of pitfalls and chasing after Team Rocket on unicycles. Besides, we've seen Arcanine lots of times before that.
    While I agree that it would have been better if the Kanto starters were left at Professor Oak so that the Johto Pokemon could get more attention and they could have reduced filler episodes focused on Kanto Pokemon, I actually liked the Pidgey flying to the moon episode. Both filler episodes on Pidgey were pretty enjoyable, although I'd give an edge to the Pidgey flying to the moon due to the friendship that developed between it and Meowth. I think that the Hoppip episode was more focused on the Oddish that wanted to be a Hoppip more than the Hoppip themselves. The Zubat in the castle technically wasn't filler due to Brock's Zubat evolving into Golbat. The Arcanine episode wasn't too bad, but since Gary would use an Arcanine in the episode where Ash got Phanpy's egg, it really wasn't necessary.

  2. #137
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    To put it simple, I thought everything was good in Johto and all the regional sagas.

  3. #138

    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    I'm really surprised some of you don't remember how Charizard's departure started the negative view of the Johto saga back in 2001. Back then Charizard was insanely popular. Everyone loved the fact that Charizard finally started obeying Ash.

    When Charizard was let go, at the time we didn't know if Ash would ever use it again, the episode originally made it seem like Charizard was being released like Butterfree and Pidgeot. So people were angry because it seemed like Ash was getting rid of his powerful pokemon for no reason. That's what originally started the negative view towards Johto, even before the tedious fillers came along.

    The writers getting rid of Ash's Kanto starters back then was a mistake.

  4. #139
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    I'm really surprised some of you don't remember how Charizard's departure started the negative view of the Johto saga back in 2001. Back then Charizard was insanely popular. Everyone loved the fact that Charizard finally started obeying Ash.

    When Charizard was let go, at the time we didn't know if Ash would ever use it again, the episode originally made it seem like Charizard was being released like Butterfree and Pidgeot. So people were angry because it seemed like Ash was getting rid of his powerful pokemon for no reason. That's what originally started the negative view towards Johto, even before the tedious fillers came along.

    The writers getting rid of Ash's Kanto starters back then was a mistake.
    I wasn't that active in online discussion forums back when Johto first started, but speaking for myself, I really didn't think that Charizard's departure was bad and it didn't make me think of a Johto in a negative way. Charizard was popular and it was a shame that it left not too long after it finally started to listen to Ash, but I didn't mind that it left. It was sad, especially when they did play it like Ash would never see Charizard again, but that's why I liked it. It was a good emotional episode and it did a good job showcasing both Charizard's personality and its relationship with Ash. There was a reason for Ash to let go of Charizard. Charizard wanted to stronger and prove itself to the other Charizard. Ash couldn't have stayed there while Charizard trained since it would derail his journey. It was honestly in Charizard's best interest to leave since it could get even stronger by training with the other Charizard in the valley. It would get stronger with Ash, but not as much and Charizard's determination moved Ash to leave it there. When Ash released any of his Pokemon, it was usually because it would help them more to leave Ash than to stay with him, aside from perhaps Primeape.

    I don't think that the writers getting rid of Ash's Kanto starters was a mistake. Aside from Charizard, they didn't really do much during the badge collecting portion of the journey. Squirtle didn't do anything beyond fighting Team Rocket prior to its departure episode and while Bulbasaur got some decent focus in a few filler episodes, it was still primarily taking up space on Ash's team that could have been used to introduce Phanpy a lot earlier so that it could have maybe been in a Gym battle. They helped Ash out in the Johto League, but they could have done that without taking up room in Ash's team. They really couldn't have kept the Kanto starters the entire saga anyway. That would have made it difficult for them to promote the Johto starters and keeping the Kanto starters around was a significant reason, if not the main one, why they were underdeveloped. If Ash had left his Kanto starters at Prof. Oak's place before leaving to Johto, he could have captured more Johto Pokemon a lot sooner and that could have helped to give them more screentime and development. I still think that getting rid of the Kanto starters was a good idea. They would have had to do it at some time anyway. They certainly couldn't have been on Ash's main team forever.

  5. #140
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    I'm really surprised some of you don't remember how Charizard's departure started the negative view of the Johto saga back in 2001. Back then Charizard was insanely popular. Everyone loved the fact that Charizard finally started obeying Ash.
    Like I said, it would have been better if it was left at the lab, that way people would know where Charizard was at all times. And just because it started to listen to Ash doesn't mean it needed to stay with him throughout all of Johto. I'm glad it was removed, but I just didn't understand why it needed to go to a charizard valley instead of staying elsewhere.

    When Charizard was let go, at the time we didn't know if Ash would ever use it again, the episode originally made it seem like Charizard was being released like Butterfree and Pidgeot. So people were angry because it seemed like Ash was getting rid of his powerful pokemon for no reason. That's what originally started the negative view towards Johto, even before the tedious fillers came along.
    First of all Butterfree, Pigeot and Charizard are different circumstances. Butterfree left for a good reason of it's own life. Pigeot barely did much but got it's ass kicked a lot and was the most shafted of his Kanto group back in the day. And we all know how bird pokemon are treated. And like I said, the writers probably thought that keeping Charizard with Ash was cool but they knew he would be spamming it in mostly every gym and battle, so they had to get rid of it. But like I said before, they could have just had him leave him at the ranch, that way haters wouldn't have had to yap this whole time about it.

  6. #141
    Registered User Trainer Gabriel's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    The writers getting rid of Ash's Kanto starters back then was a mistake.
    It's almost surprising that regardless of how you may have felt about Charizard and other Kanto starters leaving at the time, you still cling to the idea that their departure was a mistake and that their staying would have somehow made Johto somewhat better, despite your general negative reaction to characters staying for a long while. Weren't you also excited about Brock returning full-time only to later think that keeping the original trio was a mistake in Johto? I'd be willing to bet that if the Kanto starters stayed throughout all of Johto, and Ash never caught the Johto starters, that you'd be telling everyone that they had outstayed their welcome, much like you say about Misty and Brock.

    Unless, of course, you're only referring to... *how* they were released...?

  7. #142

    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trainer Gabriel View Post
    Unless, of course, you're only referring to... *how* they were released...?
    I don't know what he's referring to, but I saw no problem with how they were released. It was nice that the writers gave each starter its own departure episode and that Ash didn't just dump them at Oak's. Obviously, they weren't really released considering how many times Charizard has returned since then. The only problem was Bulbasaur outstaying its welcome until the start of Johto's third year, even though its presence was forgettable. It was similar to how Charizard is being handled now, but then most Pokémon are forgettable these days.

  8. #143
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trainer Gabriel View Post
    Weren't you also excited about Brock returning full-time only to later think that keeping the original trio was a mistake in Johto? I'd be willing to bet that if the Kanto starters stayed throughout all of Johto, and Ash never caught the Johto starters, that you'd be telling everyone that they had outstayed their welcome, much like you say about Misty and Brock.

    Unless, of course, you're only referring to... *how* they were released...?
    What some people don't understand is that whoever was in main cast during Johto writing wouldn't magically get better than way it was when original trio was in cast. Johto was first long region they had to write for, staff at that point still wasn't sure in what direction they want anime to go , and i imagine giving up from important plots like GS ball which served as vector through which Ash and co were sent to Johto hurt more than it helped losing their main story through which they initially intended to keep things going.

    Personally i didn't mind Misty and Brock stay for Johto. They still brought lot of humor, tension and enjoyable dynamic into cast providing adventurous feeling in pokemon series, giving it certain identity/charm in my opinion. Which allowed to get insight into Misty and Brock past, character development dealing with their issues or goals, have them contribute to resolution of various plots, catch new pokemon etc. Which i appreciated being valuable component of series allowing to be done more with characters and receive some valuable growth. More notably during Master Quest when Whirl Islands started,.

    In longer run it was still better than what they got in Kanto barely getting any growth, chance to form their teams and reveal more about background and motives which mold their characters.
    I prefer when characters in this show achieve something, grow as persons and trainers on journey making it feel like they gained something from it, explore on various facets of their personalities, past and from where they come while building on plots which surround them and their pokemon.

    And while there could have been done more leaving things to be desired, their stay for Johto allowed to be more fleshed out ,being way too early to have them leave after Kanto only ending with another "Tracey syndrome"(underdeveloped and unexplored character).

    Which is one of main reasons why he was low received not staying for long enough for people to invest in character, learn more and grew to like him.

  9. #144

    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silktree View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Trainer Gabriel View Post
    Unless, of course, you're only referring to... *how* they were released...?
    I don't know what he's referring to, but I saw no problem with how they were released. It was nice that the writers gave each starter its own departure episode and that Ash didn't just dump them at Oak's. Obviously, they weren't really released considering how many times Charizard has returned since then. The only problem was Bulbasaur outstaying its welcome until the start of Johto's third year, even though its presence was forgettable. It was similar to how Charizard is being handled now, but then most Pokémon are forgettable these days.
    Ash's Kanto starters were viewed as permanent representations of his team back then. Getting rid of Butterfree or Pidgeot already annoyed people, but to see Ash's all powerful Charizard go? Back then as I said, we didn't know if it would come back or if it was released. I'm really surprised some of you don't remember how popular Charizard was back in 2001. That's what kickstarted the hate toward the Johto saga before the tedious fillers came in full force. Squirtle leaving soon after didn't help matters.

    Really the Johto saga was the growing pains of a transition saga. The Johto starters were poorly received at the time for replacing Ash's Kanto starters, similar to Tracey being poorly received for replacing Brock. This is why just like Brock returned over Tracey, all of Ash's Kanto starters return at the end of Johto and star in the league. It was as if the writers were literally casting the Johto pokes aside to give Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charizard and Snorlax all starring roles in the 8th Gym and league. They didn't get the character replacement aspect right until May was introduced as she proved more than just being Misty 2.0, hence why unlike Brock/Tracey and the Kanto/Johto starter fiasco, this time around the original character did not come back.

  10. #145
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    Ash's Kanto starters were viewed as permanent representations of his team back then. Getting rid of Butterfree or Pidgeot already annoyed people, but to see Ash's all powerful Charizard go? Back then as I said, we didn't know if it would come back or if it was released. I'm really surprised some of you don't remember how popular Charizard was back in 2001. That's what kickstarted the hate toward the Johto saga before the tedious fillers came in full force. Squirtle leaving soon after didn't help matters.
    I know that Charizard was popular back in 2001, especially with coming back for the third movie, but I still don't think that getting rid of the Kanto starters was a bad decision. Charizard was the only one of the three to actually do anything. Squirtle didn't do much, if anything, before its departure episode and Bulbasaur just took up space that could have been better used for Johto Pokemon. Seeing Charizard go was sad, but I never got mad at that decision. Like I said, it was better for Charizard to stay to train more and Squirtle was going to help put out fires. That was better than what they could do if they stayed with Ash. While I didn't think that they would be released like Butterfree was, which it did look like at the time, I didn't think that they would always be on Ash's team. That would have prevented Ash from catching new Pokemon and keeping his Kanto Pokemon throughout all of Johto would have been boring. It would have been a poor marketing decision to keep them for the whole saga.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Really the Johto saga was the growing pains of a transition saga. The Johto starters were poorly received at the time for replacing Ash's Kanto starters, similar to Tracey being poorly received for replacing Brock. This is why just like Brock returned over Tracey, all of Ash's Kanto starters return at the end of Johto and star in the league. It was as if the writers were literally casting the Johto pokes aside to give Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charizard and Snorlax all starring roles in the 8th Gym and league. They didn't get the character replacement aspect right until May was introduced as she proved more than just being Misty 2.0, hence why unlike Brock/Tracey and the Kanto/Johto starter fiasco, this time around the original character did not come back.
    I don't know if that was the attitude of the online community at the time or if you're using your opinion to speak for everyone again, but I liked the Johto starters. They were underdeveloped, but they had more personality than the Kanto starters and I would have preferred for them to start Johto with Ash leaving his older Pokemon, aside from Pikachu, at Professor Oak so that he could capture the Johto Pokemon sooner and they could get more development. Though, the writers did have a hard time with how to develop Ash's new team. I think that's why his Kanto Pokemon got more focus, aside from how popular Charizard at least was. They didn't know how Ash's Johto team could face off against Dragon Pokemon or some Pokemon from the Johto League, so they just relied on his older Pokemon instead of developing his current team. I don't think it was necessary to bring back Squirtle and Bulbasaur for the Johto League, especially when I never thought that they were that strong to begin with. This was the first time that Ash got a new team, so they didn't quite know how to handle their development, similar to how they didn't know how to stretch a single journey into a full generation, and they learned from their mistakes with the next series. They gave Ash a fresh start with only taking Pikachu to Hoenn, which lead to most of his Hoenn Pokemon getting pretty good screentime/development. If they had done that at the start of Johto, I think that the chances are good that the Johto starters would have better development.

  11. #146
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    Ash's Kanto starters were viewed as permanent representations of his team back then. Getting rid of Butterfree or Pidgeot already annoyed people, but to see Ash's all powerful Charizard go? Back then as I said, we didn't know if it would come back or if it was released. I'm really surprised some of you don't remember how popular Charizard was back in 2001. That's what kickstarted the hate toward the Johto saga before the tedious fillers came in full force. Squirtle leaving soon after didn't help matters.
    Believe me when I say that I know *exactly* how popular Charizard was back in the day. Whenever I've asked someone what his favorite Pokemon was, almost every time that fan would respond that it was Charizard.

    My point is - even if there were fans who quit watching the anime after Charizard or Squirtle left, what does that matter now? Would keeping them in Ash's roster the whole time really have made the Johto saga better and more enjoyable for you? Or would you instead be talking about how much they stagnated throughout their extra long run and why they should have been Oak'd earlier?

    Your posts seem to suggest so, yet I think we can all agree nowadays that letting them go was probably for the better - and not just for promotional reasons, either. Bulbasaur shouldn't have even hung around as long as he did, considering he became redundant since Ash got Chikorita and did basically nothing throughout the journey until the league, anyway.
    Last edited by Trainer Gabriel; 5th May 2013 at 02:50 PM.

  12. #147

    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trainer Gabriel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    Ash's Kanto starters were viewed as permanent representations of his team back then. Getting rid of Butterfree or Pidgeot already annoyed people, but to see Ash's all powerful Charizard go? Back then as I said, we didn't know if it would come back or if it was released. I'm really surprised some of you don't remember how popular Charizard was back in 2001. That's what kickstarted the hate toward the Johto saga before the tedious fillers came in full force. Squirtle leaving soon after didn't help matters.
    Believe me when I say that I know *exactly* how popular Charizard was back in the day. Whenever I've asked someone what his favorite Pokemon was, almost every time that fan would respond that it was Charizard.

    My point is - even if there were fans who quit watching the anime after Charizard or Squirtle left, what does that matter now? Would keeping them in Ash's roster the whole time really have made the Johto saga better and more enjoyable for you? Or would you instead be talking about how much they stagnated throughout their extra long run and why they should have been Oak'd earlier?

    Your posts seem to suggest so, yet I think we can all agree nowadays that letting them go was probably for the better - and not just for promotional reasons, either. Bulbasaur shouldn't have even hung around as long as he did, considering he became redundant since Ash got Chikorita and did basically nothing throughout the journey until the league, anyway.
    I know it doesn't matter now, I'm speaking in the context of back then. Obviously now with Ash's Kanto starters gone for 10 years it makes no difference. I'm just speaking of when Johto was airing for the first time.

    When the show was in the original series people remembered Ash with his classic Kanto team, the Johto team is never brought up.

  13. #148
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    I know it doesn't matter now, I'm speaking in the context of back then. Obviously now with Ash's Kanto starters gone for 10 years it makes no difference. I'm just speaking of when Johto was airing for the first time.

    When the show was in the original series people remembered Ash with his classic Kanto team, the Johto team is never brought up.
    I still don't think that keeping the Kanto starters would have made Johto better. They would have become stagnated and boring, especially when Squirtle and Bulbasaur didn't do much of anything compared to Charizard. As for the teams, most people would bring up Ash's Kanto team since that's when the series was at the peak of its popularity. It started to fade around Johto, so later teams wouldn't be as well known.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    I think it goes both ways. On one hand some things were better. Misty wasn't as bitchy and the Gym Leaders were (for the most part) better Trainers than the ones in Kanto. Ash was also a bit more mature. But there were too many pointless episodes. At least they did get a good picture of Johto.

  15. #150
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    Ash's Kanto starters were viewed as permanent representations of his team back then. Getting rid of Butterfree or Pidgeot already annoyed people, but to see Ash's all powerful Charizard go? Back then as I said, we didn't know if it would come back or if it was released. I'm really surprised some of you don't remember how popular Charizard was back in 2001. That's what kickstarted the hate toward the Johto saga before the tedious fillers came in full force. Squirtle leaving soon after didn't help matters.
    While im well aware of their popularity, i don't think Charizard or Squirtle leaving were in no way responsible for decline in ratings during mid Johto not affecting popularity on large scale. Main reason behind people disappointment at that time was drop of main plots for which fandom was excited for years such as GS ball for which writing staff hoped people would forget about as it was brought up in interview with mr. Hidaka, insufficient amount of development for main characters and too many non plot related episodes which didn't moved things forward. And fad dying out didn't helped things either,.

    Majority definitely didn't watched this show mainly because of Ash Kanto starters and while some of their leaving came of in contrived, rushed manner(like Charizard) it was hardly something which caused viewers discountenance over series as whole.

    Not nearly as much like Misty leaving and disband of original trio caused from what i noticed, which were viewed as indivisible cast meant to stay forever resulting in backlash back than.
    Fact how no amount of petitions and complaining received response should serve as conclusive evidence how writers don't appease to complaints from viewers you can find on English pokemon sites nor they pay attention to them.

    Hence why i highly doubt return of Snorlax, Charizard or Squirtle during end of Johto was writers way of "apologizing"to older fans for replacing them with Johto starters like Cyndaquil, Bayleef or Totodile.
    In reality it wasn't that much different from what it happened in Battle Frontier, Sinnoh League or Best Wishes with writers returning Ash Kanto pokemon all the time mainly for fanservice purposes and to strengthen series continuity.

    Speaking of Ash Johto starters while im disappointed with Totodile treatment barely having any growth or note worthy achievements, looking back i was satisfied with Chikorita presence. She had fun personality being stubborn and often jealous over Ash giving attention to other pokemon becoming infatuated, experiencing growth herself when she learned after evolution to be less urgent and how she became too heavy to jump in Ash lap like she used to did before.

    She had quite impressive battle record as well beating Bugsy Spinarak, helped slow down Whitney Miltank, defeated Misty Staryu which was at higher level of experience, won whole match against gym leader Chuck by herself defeating Poliwrath and Machoke, defeated Harrison Houndoom etc.

    All in all i had not much objections toward Bayleef, and Cyndaquil had some impressive battles and achievements too showing insecurity and submissive nature on which Ash worked becoming stronger and more "brave "so to speak.
    Only pity was that he never evolved and lived up to its full potential unfortunately.

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