To what degree was Johto flawed?

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    Default To what degree was Johto flawed?

    How deeply was the Johto-region portion of the anime flawed?

    A little? A lot? Not at all?


    In this thread you may talk about likes/dislikes, strong points/weak points, and the characters of the series. You may also argue these points. Remember to debate only the arguments and not the person arguing, and that everyone is entitled to their own opinion about the series.

    Character-specific discussions that span for longer than Johto should go in their respective debate threads. (for eg. Misty/Kasumi's debate thread is here)


    Live Caster rules apply, of course.
    Last edited by Musashi; 2nd September 2011 at 05:52 PM.

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    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    I think the initial problem with Johto is we all thought it was going to keep Kanto's sense of adventure, humor and slight darkness. But it didn't. Johto was clearly toned down from what had come before it, and everything that people loved about Kanto felt like it was being eradicated over the course of the Johto arc. I suppose the problem with Johto is the writers didn't exactly know what they wanted to do with it. It was only the second full region they ever did, not counting Orange Islands, and the only thing on their mind at the time was, "OK Tracey is gone and we brought Brock back, that's all we needed to do."

    So the original trio was reunited...for what? A boring adventure where Ash mostly helped COTD's with their problems?

    There was also many what I consider, "jump the shark" moments:

    1. The abrupt departures of Charizard and Squirtle, yet keeping Bulbasaur through the 6th Gym. They should have either left them all behind at once or gradually phased them out closer together. Of course at the time it seemed like Charizard and Squirtle were released like Pidgeot, thank god that didn't happen.

    2. The dropping of the GS ball. Yes we know why they did it, but it was still horrible.

    3. Poor handing of Ash's Johto team. Only Bayleef was really handled decently. Cyndaquil and Totodile both deserved to evolve but never did, Noctowl/Heracross/Phanpy didn't get much proper screentime.

    4. Too many fillers. Johto has more filler than any other arc, and almost ALL OF IT is exactly the same. This is where Ash started helping COTD's non-stop and TR just stole Pikachu in every episode.

    5. Misty and Brock were mishandled. If you watch Best Wishes, you know exactly what they should have done with Misty and Brock:

    - Misty and Brock had no rivals
    - They rarely engaged in battle
    - Their pokemon teams remained stagnant, because they kept their Kanto pokemon
    - The new Pokemon they did get, like Crobat and Politoed, felt like it meant so little because they were hardly used
    - Their storylines felt like they were put on the backburner for Ash's quest

    That being said Brock was still funny in Johto, so I'll cut him some slack. The original trio didn't have as good chemistry as in kanto, but it was overall decent.

    6. The Gym battles were better than Kanto's. Nothing too amazing. Whitney's Gym was just ridiculous though.

    7. No new characters. We got Casey...um, OK? Where was Silver? Where were the new recurring characters?

    8. Gary was mishandled. This is the last time Gary was the main rival, and we only see him 3 times before the league? Really, writers?

    9. Although this is minor, Ash keeping his Kanto clothes. They got old by this point.

    10. Almost 60-70% of the saga is skippable and you won't miss anything important. If I can skip that many episodes and I feel like I'm not missing anything story wise or development wise, then there is a problem.

    11. Too damn long. Why did Johto need 3 years? Why not make it shorter and give us a filler arc afterward?

    12. Misty holding Togepi for the entire span of Johto was the worst mistake the writers made with the character. It limited Misty's involvement in the saga and Togepi itself just became boring and pointless. Can you believe a female protagonist basically held an egg all saga? Why didn't we get Togetic back here?

    13. Team Rocket. They adapted a few TR parts from the games, but not all of them. Giovanni should have had a bigger role in this saga.


    Johto had some good points, like Wobbufett and some funny episodes here and there, but these 13 "Jump the shark" moments ruined it for me.

    Thanks to all the complaining and Shudo's departure and Tomioka taking over, the writers revamped the anime afterward and never looked back.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd View Post
    I think the initial problem with Johto is we all thought it was going to keep Kanto's sense of adventure, humor and slight darkness. But it didn't. Johto was clearly toned down from what had come before it, and everything that people loved about Kanto felt like it was being eradicated over the course of the Johto arc. I suppose the problem with Johto is the writers didn't exactly know what they wanted to do with it. It was only the second full region they ever did, not counting Orange Islands, and the only thing on their mind at the time was, "OK Tracey is gone and we brought Brock back, that's all we needed to do."
    I'm not sure if everything from Kanto was being eradicated over the course of Johto. That sounds a bit harsh and not everyone loved everything about Kanto either. I still don't think that they were just thinking that they needed to bring back Brock. I still think that they made improvements with giving more Pokemon personalities, having Ash train some of his Pokemon, though still not as often as he could have and having almost all of his Gym badges be earned in a believable manner, instead of just getting most of them for cheap/weak reasons or without even winning a match. Like I mentioned in another thread, this was the first time that they were doing a journey for longer than a year. They really didn't have a lot of experience with stretching out a journey for a few years like they obviously do now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    1. The abrupt departures of Charizard and Squirtle, yet keeping Bulbasaur through the 6th Gym. They should have either left them all behind at once or gradually phased them out closer together. Of course at the time it seemed like Charizard and Squirtle were released like Pidgeot, thank god that didn't happen.
    I'm not sure if the departures for Charizard and Squirtle were abrupt. Both of them had a focus episode where having them leave Ash by the end seemed pretty obvious. Maybe there could have been more buildup to those departures, but they didn't feel that sudden or abrupt. Though, I agree that keeping Bulbasaur around that long, especially when it wasn't in any significant battles, was an odd choice and it most likely would have been better if they were left at Prof. Oak's place instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    2. The dropping of the GS ball. Yes we know why they did it, but it was still horrible.
    While I agree that was a bad move on their part, I honestly was never really bothered that they dropped it. I remember thinking to myself after the Johto League was done, "Oh, now they'll stop by Azela Town and get info on the GS ball." Then when they were already back in Kanto, I was surprised, but it didn't really phase me that much even when I was watching the last few Johto episodes for the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    3. Poor handing of Ash's Johto team. Only Bayleef was really handled decently. Cyndaquil and Totodile both deserved to evolve but never did, Noctowl/Heracross/Phanpy didn't get much proper screentime.
    I thought that Cyndaquil had pretty decent treatment too, despite not evolving. They dealt with its problem to light up its flame pretty well, even having Ash train with it, had a nice personality and most of its Gym battle victories felt believable and were enjoyable to watch. Totodile is cute, but I agree it could have been used more in battle and his other Pokemon could have gotten more screentime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    4. Too many fillers. Johto has more filler than any other arc, and almost ALL OF IT is exactly the same. This is where Ash started helping COTD's non-stop and TR just stole Pikachu in every episode.
    For the most part, I wasn't bothered too much by the amount of filler episodes in Johto. Yeah, some of them are pretty dull with Ash and his friends helping out the COTD fairly often, but most of those episodes were fun to watch. I recently rewatched Johto Journeys for the first time in years, some of Johto League Champions, as I haven't been able to buy the last three discs for the season yet, and all of Master Quest and I didn't think all of the filler episodes were dull. There were quite a few that even I didn't care that much about, but I thought most of the filler episodes were fun or at least decent to watch and that the good out weights the bad/boring episodes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    5. Misty and Brock were mishandled. If you watch Best Wishes, you know exactly what they should have done with Misty and Brock:

    - Misty and Brock had no rivals
    - They rarely engaged in battle
    - Their pokemon teams remained stagnant, because they kept their Kanto pokemon
    - The new Pokemon they did get, like Crobat and Politoed, felt like it meant so little because they were hardly used
    - Their storylines felt like they were put on the backburner for Ash's quest
    I thought that Politoed was used quite often as a Poliwhirl and had some decent moments in the later part of Johto, but I agree that their storylines were kind of put oon the backburner for Ash's Gym battle quest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    6. The Gym battles were better than Kanto's. Nothing too amazing. Whitney's Gym was just ridiculous though.
    I thought that there were a good couple of Gym matches like against Morty and Jasmine. I didn't find Ash's victory over Whitney's Gym to be ridiculous, if that's what you're referring to. The only Gym victory I thought was kind of cheap was against Pryce since Ash was clearly about the lose the match with all of the damage Pikachu had taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    7. No new characters. We got Casey...um, OK? Where was Silver? Where were the new recurring characters?

    8. Gary was mishandled. This is the last time Gary was the main rival, and we only see him 3 times before the league? Really, writers?
    For some reason, Silver not appearing in Johto never bothered me, despite how I think he's one of the best rivals from the games. I wouldn't have mind seeing more of him, but perhaps the writers didn't want to give Ash more rivals considering how they handled Gary. He should have appeared more often so that their confrontation in the league would have been even more significant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    9. Although this is minor, Ash keeping his Kanto clothes. They got old by this point.
    The only thing that bothered me about Ash keeping his Kanto clothes was that the animators could still use that same frame of Ash throwing a Pokeball to call out one of his Pokemon. Now that got old for me when I first watched Johto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    11. Too damn long. Why did Johto need 3 years? Why not make it shorter and give us a filler arc afterward?
    I'm guessing that they were experimenting with making one journey last a whole generation or they didn't think that there would have been enough time to do another filler arc even if they had made Johto longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    12. Misty holding Togepi for the entire span of Johto was the worst mistake the writers made with the character. It limited Misty's involvement in the saga and Togepi itself just became boring and pointless. Can you believe a female protagonist basically held an egg all saga? Why didn't we get Togetic back here?
    Well, I think that she did battle more and get a bit more attention in Johto than she did in Kanto, but I don't think that's saying much either. I would have liked to have seen Misty get a Togetic, but maybe they didn't want to make the cute secondary mascot, which I'm pretty sure Togepi was, evolve in the series. I would have been content with Misty training Togepi and eventually finding out that it could use attacks like Metronome though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    13. Team Rocket. They adapted a few TR parts from the games, but not all of them. Giovanni should have had a bigger role in this saga.
    The main Team Rocket event that they took from the games was the Lake of Red and Red Grayados two-parter. I don't think that Team Rocket trying to steal all of the Slowpoke from the Slowpoke Well counts since they were doing it for different reasons than what happened in the game. I can understand why they didn't include all of the Team Rocket events from the games into the anime. In G/S/C, Team Rocket was doing all of that to find a way to contact Giovanni and bring back Team Rocket. It wouldn't make sense to have them take over the Radio Tower in Goldenrod City to contact Giovanni because he was still the leader in the anime. And I couldn't see why Team Rocket would want to take over Goldenrod City in the anime anyway. At least the forcing evolution on a Pokemon made sense with their generic we want to be all powerful criminals goal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    Johto had some good points, like Wobbufett and some funny episodes here and there, but these 13 "Jump the shark" moments ruined it for me.

    Thanks to all the complaining and Shudo's departure and Tomioka taking over, the writers revamped the anime afterward and never looked back.
    To me, it feels more like they've learned from their mistakes and are using that knowledge to move forward with the show rather than they revamped it, but that's jut me.

    Anyway, I don't think that the Johto saga is that bad. It certainly had its fair share of flaws and it definitely could have been improved, but I can say the same thing for Kanto and the Orange Island. Or really any saga since none of them have been completely perfect and absolutely flawless. I can still rewatch old Johto episodes and have a good time. The personalities for most of the new Pokemon, mainly Ash's team, felt better to me, the battles were much better than they were in Kanto and the Orange Island, the Johto League was pretty solid for me and there were quite a few fun filler episodes.

    One thing I wish that the writers hadn't done though was keep the Kanto starters around. While Charizard's battles in the first and eighth Gyms, as well as the Johto League, were pretty enjoyable, the presence of the Kanto starters just took the attention away from the Johto starters. If Ash only had Pikachu with him, he could have gotten the Johto starters much sooner, had a bit more time to train them and they wouldn't have been overshadowed by the Kanto starters in the Johto League. Though, I might have been okay with Ash using Charizard for his major matches in the league, if only because that was his triumph card kind of Pokemon back then, but I still would have preferred it if he had only used his Johto Pokemon, and Pikachu, for the Gyms and most of the Johto League.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    I agree with Hidden Mew on the point that not everyone likes everything about Kanto. You can't really label people as nostalgia-freaks because looking back on Kanto, we realize that everything wasn't perfect about that series, even with the slapstick comedy/humor, adventure, and slightly mature themes. Ash's pokemon didn't display as much personality in Kanto as opposed to in Johto. Also, about half of Ash's badges in Kanto were given to him because he did something brave or noteworthy in the eyes of the gym leader, NOT because he defeated them in a battle. Johto stepped up in the quality of Ash's gym battles making them more believeable that he actually fought and EARNED those badges. Also, Kanto's gym battles didn't have referees for them like Johto did, so that made the Johto Gym matches feel a lot more official.

    If the writers wanted to let the Johto starters shine more, then they probably should've phased out the Kanto starters in a timely manner so the Johto set could get their spotlight time. In spite of that, Bayleef and Cyndaquile were handled nicely, both receiving a fair amount of battles/development, especially Bayleef. An evolution for Cyndaquil would've been nice. Totodile got the short end of the stick there. But other than that, not too bad.

    In regards to the fillers, I think people just overreact too much to them. Fillers are NECESSARY. Fillers are the only opportunity the writers have where they can be as creative as they want to be. They don't have to follow a set formula with the filler episodes. They don't have to stick to the plot in the games. Just think about what the anime would be like if we only had plot-driven episodes only...

    Ash dumps his previous regional team except Pikachu at the start of a journey into a new region.

    Ash catches a pokemon.
    Gym battle.
    Ash catches 2nd pokemon.
    Gym battle.
    Ash captures 3rd pokemon.
    Gym battle.
    Ash captures 4th pokemon.
    Gym battle.
    Ash captures 5th pokemon.
    Gym battle.
    Gym battle.
    Gym battle.
    Pokemon League.

    Pretty boring, right? That's basically like watching someone play the games. No fun at all. Doing the episodes like that, you could wrap up and entire series in less than 20 episodes. This is why filler episodes are needed to add length to the series. As long as they are quality episodes that are entertaining, I don't care about them being filler.

    So what would increase the quality of these episodes? More character development. Give Misty and Brock rivals like what Iris and Cilan have gotten in BW. Give Ash a secondary rival, like in DP. Allow the rivals to appear more often to challenge and keep our heroes on their toes. Bring Celebi's story to the series. Have Team Rocket play a bigger role in Johto. These are just some minor improvements that could've added a lot more flavor to the series. It's nothing like a total dramatic makeover.

    12. Misty holding Togepi for the entire span of Johto was the worst mistake the writers made with the character. It limited Misty's involvement in the saga and Togepi itself just became boring and pointless. Can you believe a female protagonist basically held an egg all saga? Why didn't we get Togetic back here?
    As far as Misty goes, I'd would agree that Togepi may have toned down her personality slightly, but it wasn't exterminated. But I'd say Misty was a bit more active in Johto than she was allowed to be in Kanto. If you actually go back, you'd see that Misty utilized her pokemon in some way in about 1/3 of the total Johto saga's episodes. Considering her role, that's not a bad deal at all because she wasn't on co-star female status like, someone like Dawn.

    Johto had some good points, like Wobbufett and some funny episodes here and there, but these 13 "Jump the shark" moments ruined it for me.
    You make it seem like Johto had very few good things to offer at all...

    Johto improved the quality of the Gym Battles overall.
    Johto added more personality the the pokemon.
    Some comedy aspects from the OS were taken, and expanded upon in Johto.
    Johto saw the return of some older characters from Kanto like Snapp/Todd, Duplica, Aya, etc...
    Ash actually began to train his pokemon a bit more seriously than in Kanto
    The Johto saga's plot was very faithful to the actual plot from the gameplay.

    So despite the shortcomings with lack of development/screentime, and "fillers", I'd still say that the Johto saga is underrated. No series is perfect, every one of them has its flaws.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    You know, unlike most people, I had no real problems with Johto whatsoever. Sure, it had its flaws. Misty and Brock were way too underdeveloped. There were boring fillers. It stretched on for too long. But other than that, I thought Johto was a good portion of the series. I happen to be a huge fan of a lot of Johto episodes. Sure, some were dreadfully boring, but so what? We get boring episodes EVERY season. Johto had The Fortune Hunters, Forest Grumps, A Better Pill to Swallow, Air Time, Dues and Don'ts, The Wayward Wobbuffet, etc. If you ask me, Johto had quite a few gems. So with the exception of 1) Misty and Brock were in dire need of more development, 2) There were boring episodes and 3) It was way too long, I don't think Johto was all that flawed at all.
    Last edited by Insanish Danish; 29th August 2011 at 10:16 PM.
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Johto did have some good and funny episodes, the problem is for every good episodes there were 3-5 dull/crap episodes right next to it.

    For example in Master Quest we got the excellent, "Dues and Don'ts," but then got the horrible "Whichever way the Wind blows" (that Vileplume/Bellossom filler), and "Enlighten up" right around it, (Slowpoke cult episode). I know every saga of Pokemon is like this, with great episodes then some mediocre episodes right after it, but for Johto it just seemed like the bad outweighed the good.

    It also pretty much had the worst human character handling of the series. Compare Misty in Johto to what they did with May/Dawn/Iris in their respective sagas, there is no comparison. Brock I can't pick on too much because this wasn't his worst saga, he was still funny and had endearing moments on the group. We all know when Brock started to get ignored...

    Gary also suffered greatly. I still like Gary, but the way they handled him was so disappointing. I feel like they never used him to his full potential, and its far too late now unfortunately to make him into a main rival again.

    And as said, the one new character we DID get, like Casey, just wound up being a throw-away character who never amounted to anything. Casey only gets 3 episodes and then we find out she failed to make it to the league...so what was the point of her character? To hear an Electabuzz theme song?

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd View Post
    Johto did have some good and funny episodes, the problem is for every good episodes there were 3-5 dull/crap episodes right next to it.

    For example in Master Quest we got the excellent, "Dues and Don'ts," but then got the horrible "Whichever way the Wind blows" (that Vileplume/Bellossom filler), and "Enlighten up" right around it, (Slowpoke cult episode). I know every saga of Pokemon is like this, with great episodes then some mediocre episodes right after it, but for Johto it just seemed like the bad outweighed the good.
    I actually like "Enlighten Up." It was kind of weird, but it was pretty fun and I tend to enjoy the episodes where Ash, his friends and Team Rocket are interacting with each other for a long period of time. I still feel the opposite of Johto with the good outweighing the bad, even though I haven't seen the later half of Johto League Champions yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    It also pretty much had the worst human character handling of the series. Compare Misty in Johto to what they did with May/Dawn/Iris in their respective sagas, there is no comparison. Brock I can't pick on too much because this wasn't his worst saga, he was still funny and had endearing moments on the group. We all know when Brock started to get ignored...
    I'd honestly would include both Kanto and the Orange Island in regards to Misty, instead of just saying that it was only in Johto where she wasn't handled well. While I'm pretty indifferent towards her character in general, both she and Brock for that matter could have received more attention/development back in Kanto, as well as the Orange Islands in Misty's case. I thought that there were a few more episodes in Johto that did give them some nice focus, but they obviously could have done more. May and Dawn were far better because they were on a battle-active sidequest, so the writers couldn't really have not do anything significant for their respective goals for a long period of time. I'm not sure if Iris is that much significantly better than Misty in terms of getting focus. She has gotten more focus in the more recent episodes, but it still feels at around the same amount of focus Misty had around Kanto and/or Johto. Although, I should mention that I just watch the dub with only some basic knowledge of some events in the Japanese version and I personally like Iris more than Misty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    Gary also suffered greatly. I still like Gary, but the way they handled him was so disappointing. I feel like they never used him to his full potential, and its far too late now unfortunately to make him into a main rival again.
    I would have liked to see more of Gary just to see him changing at a more gradual level so that his decision to become a Pokemon researcher wouldn't be so sudden and out of nowhere. That would have been interesting to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    And as said, the one new character we DID get, like Casey, just wound up being a throw-away character who never amounted to anything. Casey only gets 3 episodes and then we find out she failed to make it to the league...so what was the point of her character? To hear an Electabuzz theme song?
    My guess is that they were planning on making her appear more, but they might have changed their minds about having a rookie trainer be a rival for Ash, which I wish they did with BW, or they couldn't do what they wanted to do with her character due to either conflicting ideas with other members of the staff or they all wanted to move onto other ideas. While it was kind of disappointing to not have her even make it to the Johto League, I was okay with her not appearing that much in the saga. She was okay during her first appearance, but I didn't care too much for her after that. She might have been more interesting if she appeared more and we saw how much stronger she got through her battles with Ash, but I was okay with her just being a recurring character instead of a new rival for Ash.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd View Post
    Johto did have some good and funny episodes, the problem is for every good episodes there were 3-5 dull/crap episodes right next to it.

    For example in Master Quest we got the excellent, "Dues and Don'ts," but then got the horrible "Whichever way the Wind blows" (that Vileplume/Bellossom filler), and "Enlighten up" right around it, (Slowpoke cult episode). I know every saga of Pokemon is like this, with great episodes then some mediocre episodes right after it, but for Johto it just seemed like the bad outweighed the good.

    It also pretty much had the worst human character handling of the series. Compare Misty in Johto to what they did with May/Dawn/Iris in their respective sagas, there is no comparison. Brock I can't pick on too much because this wasn't his worst saga, he was still funny and had endearing moments on the group. We all know when Brock started to get ignored...

    Gary also suffered greatly. I still like Gary, but the way they handled him was so disappointing. I feel like they never used him to his full potential, and its far too late now unfortunately to make him into a main rival again.

    And as said, the one new character we DID get, like Casey, just wound up being a throw-away character who never amounted to anything. Casey only gets 3 episodes and then we find out she failed to make it to the league...so what was the point of her character? To hear an Electabuzz theme song?
    True that. The worst part is a lot of those fillers have close to nothing to do with the art of Pokemon training.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Johto had its flaws just like any other saga and while some things were treated badly there were many good points about it.

    In my opinion biggest down points from Johto were:
    -GS ball being dropped ending up as wasted opportunity.
    -Ash traveling companions Misty and Brock didnt received nearly enough focus for such a long region with their stories being left underdeveloped
    -Ash basically didnt had rivals(barring rare and once in a blue moon appearances from Gary)and his Johto team was one big mess with Totodile or Noctowl being beyond shafted.
    -There was present excessive use of fillers which could have been used for something far more productive(Like increase of screen time for sidekicks)

    However Johto did several improvements and highlights too.It was ground breaker in introducing mini arcs of several episodes in a row which followed specific storyline like Red Gyarados,Lugia,Larvitar or Whirl Islands arc with other series afterwards starting to incorporate same pattern too.
    -Aside from gym matches battling in general got improved being more strategic and detailed along with animation becoming better too.

    -Main characters also went through some significant character development.Ash started to mature as character during mid Johto becoming less reckless and stubborn with more strategy being used when battling gym leaders and other trainers.

    Misty became more timid and sarcastic not being aggressive like she used to do learning how to become more patient and better control her temper side.This can be manifested in way she interacted with other characters like Sakura,Egan,Dorian etc becoming mature enough to get over her complex of inferiority which was caused by older sisters as well more confident which was show when she took care of lost Marill in "For Crying Out Loud" or when taking charge in finding Ash and Brock when group got separated from each other with Team Rocket for example.In early days she wasnt able to handle any criticism,being able to admit her own mistakes just sending out everyone to hell with zero to none patience being involved.
    Her skills as water trainer have been vastly improved compared to Kanto days too receiving some character development regarding her goal of becoming water pokemon master by coming top 8 in Whirl Cup,evolving and catching water pokemon with her skills starting to become recognized by others.

    Brock started to do steps forward in his breeder career receiving some development through various episodes,like when he took care of lost Stantler,entered contest for pokemon breeders along with Suzy along with his obsessiveness over girls being explored more beside just staying on running gag in some episodes like it was case with girl Temaku from "Heartbreak of Brock"or with that doctor which had Zubat.

    -Most gym leaders werent treated as battling machines getting proper introduction with most matches being done to satisfactory degree

    -out of whole sea of fillers there were more good than bad ones if you ask me.Several of them were one of best episodes in history"For Crying Out Loud","Heartbreak of Brock","Fortune Hunters","Hocus Pokemon","Air Time"etc).

    -it also brought several Kanto characters for visits like Todd,Koga sister Aya,Ritchie,Duplica etc providing nice throwback in past and what has been happening with them in meantime.

    To this day i think Johto is underrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd View Post
    Thanks to all the complaining and Shudo's departure and Tomioka taking over, the writers revamped the anime afterward and never looked back.
    Reason why some segments in anime improved wasnt because of characters being replaced but because of quality of writing starting to improve with writers learning from their past mistakes.

    And i thought it was already established how reason why original trio was dismantled and every other group afterwards is because writers wanted to add some change with main reason why anime doesnt reuse previous characters focusing on new ones being because of formula of this show.It was cleared up in various interviews like one with ex director mr.Hidaka how writers rather want to use new characters partially because of marketing purposes and partially because of wanting to use new designs(to give new fanservice to audience).

    Quote Originally Posted by Afrojisiac-19 View Post
    As far as Misty goes, I'd would agree that Togepi may have toned down her personality slightly, but it wasn't exterminated. But I'd say Misty was a bit more active in Johto than she was allowed to be in Kanto. If you actually go back, you'd see that Misty utilized her pokemon in some way in about 1/3 of the total Johto saga's episodes. Considering her role, that's not a bad deal at all because she wasn't on co-star female status like, someone like Dawn.
    That was more character development than anything else.
    In personality department only notable difference which can be noticed in Misty character during Johto was that her temper was used in smaller measure compared to Kanto days.Reason is because she started to develop as character and mature a bit learning how to become more patient not exploding over every little thing which may have gone on her nerves with taking care of baby pokmon bringing out maternal side on surface.This also allowed that other sides of her personality comes on surface more often being overshadowed by temper at times in past.
    In Johto we can still see Misty being full of competitive streak,sarcastic comments having tendency to tease Ash and others about their mistakes,we can still see her love for water types and fears(like fear from Gyarados and bugs),she was still spunky and tomboyish,we can still see her caring side which was already showed to be part of her character both in Kanto and Orange with Misty being full of personality.

    She was also quite stubborn and possessive over things falling for several cut things(lik Teddiursa,Wooper,Totodile,Snubull etc)but instead of smacking people on their heads she used to do in past she grew past that phase getting her point com across in more cynical yet vivid manner.In nutshell she was hotheaded but less violent.
    However as it can be noticed in several episodes(like "Totodil Duel","Hook,line and stinker","As clear as Crystal","Some like it Hot"etc)that she could still explode as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd View Post
    For example in Master Quest we got the excellent, "Dues and Don'ts," but then got the horrible "Whichever way the Wind blows" (that Vileplume/Bellossom filler), and "Enlighten up" right around it, (Slowpoke cult episode). I know every saga of Pokemon is like this, with great episodes then some mediocre episodes right after it, but for Johto it just seemed like the bad outweighed the good.
    Master Quest in quality doesnt fall behind seasons Hoenn or DP had to be honest.It had great pokemon league concluding in good way rivalry between Ash and Gary,it reduced main problem which Johto had being too many pointless fillers by including various arcs like Whirl Cup,Lugia,Red Gyarados,Dragonite or larvitar arc.,
    It gave Misty satisfactory amount of screen time giving her actually some development and it focused far more on anime plot with most episodes being plot related in one or another way.

    Master Quest is example of writers realizing what they were doing wrong in first two seasons of Johto improving in various areas.Other parts of Johto had their highlights and great moments but too many fillers and drop of plots like GS ball really tested people patience.

    It also pretty much had the worst human character handling of the series. Compare Misty in Johto to what they did with May/Dawn/Iris in their respective sagas, there is no comparison. Brock I can't pick on too much because this wasn't his worst saga, he was still funny and had endearing moments on the group. We all know when Brock started to get ignored...
    Im not sure what your trying to say but when i watched Johto it can be clearly noticed how Brock took the biggest hit as character there.He barely battled,had very little involvement within characters and interactions and received less character centric episodes than anyone else in group did.At times it made it seem like Brock wasnt even present due to how badly he got shafted.

    Misty received more focus,battled more,had her own arc(like Whirl Cup) and had more involvement in group chemistry and interaction with characters which can b noticed with established relationship with several characters out there(Like Andreas,Dorian,Octillery kid,Gligar girl etc,etc,etc).

    In all honesty last time i checked Misty did more in Johto than just holding Togepi battling more compared to Kanto and OI, started to do more with goal of becoming water master by entering Whirl Cup,Seaking catching contest,battled gym leader Dorian,revealed why she likes water pokemon so much in episodes like "Some like it Hot",formed rivalry bonding with several characters like Sakura or Egan,helped save group couple of times like she get them out of forest in Hoot,Hoot episode or helped to save Pikachu and Togepi from giant TR tank got over her complex of inferiority which was caused by sisters starting to mature as character etc,etc.Not to mention she also added humor and fun chemistry within group having entertaining interactions with many characters in that saga contributing to healthy and quality dynamic with her personality.Whenever she got screen time and chance to shine she usually did something memorable and worthwhile of watching.
    Magenta Fantasies likes this.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    After the GS ball was dropped thanks to executive meddling, the writers had no idea what to do now that their original plan for the story was dumped, and then they went "Screw this!" and started making filler episode after filler episode, along with a forgettable storyline about Articuno with a forgettable travelling companion, and it dragged out for SO LONG that it made the infamous filler arc of Naruto look like it only lasted 10 episodes of a total of 90 filler episodes that took up the gap between the original series and Shippuden. It got so bad that some fans just skip Johto (and to an extent, the Orange Islands) entirely and go straight to Hoenn. The Sinnoh saga was just as bad with the filler, but at least it had memorable episodes and a lot more plot direction than Johto ever had...

    Of course, had the GS Ball not been dropped, then Johto would have turned out a LOT better...
    SammyW27 likes this.
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    I'm not reading this thread, so pardon me if this sounds repetitive.

    Johto had a number of major flaws, one being that too many of the eps were bland, but I do realize this was the first time they had to make a saga last. The next is that the group didn't do much in this saga. Admittedly, Misty got a whole story arc, but otherwise nothing much happened. TR indeed started to get old here. Maybe not TR as a whole, but the trio in pursuit of Ash and co. The Lugia event at the end of the Whirl Islands was more a climax than the Lake of Rage to me. (then again, I have not seen it in a number of years) And the rival was virtually nonexistant.

    Does this weigh down the good? Well, maybe not if you skip over those bland eps. They did the gym battles better, and the League shall be forever remembered for the final Gary battle and a pretty decent fight against pokes that Ash had never seen before. Even though Ash's companions did not accomplish much, they did pretty much still show some of the same dynamic they always had, but that could also be seen as a flaw, in that they didn't mix up the formula from Kanto.

    All in all, I would say that they indeed messed up big time, but not enough to make it totally abominable. What is good is worth seeing. There are a few random eps that are good to watch even if they have nothing to do with the plot at large. Johto will probably still be the lowest story arc on my chart, but I won't say it's totally bad.
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Insanish Danish View Post
    You know, unlike most people, I had no real problems with Johto whatsoever. Sure, it had its flaws. Misty and Brock were way too underdeveloped. There were boring fillers. It stretched on for too long. But other than that, I thought Johto was a good portion of the series. I happen to be a huge fan of a lot of Johto episodes. Sure, some were dreadfully boring, but what we get boring episodes EVERY season. Johto had The Fortune Hunters, Forest Grumps, A Better Pill to Swallow, Air Time, Dues and Don'ts, The Wayward Wobbuffet, etc. If you ask me, Johto had quite a few gems. So with the exception of 1) Misty and Brock were in dire need of more development, 2) There were boring episodes and 3) It was way too long, I don't think Johto was all that flawed at all.
    Yes! I completely agree with everything you said! ^_^

    If you ask me, Johto had NO flaws. And for the record, Johto Journeys is my favorite season!!

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    It was long and boring and filled with pointless fillers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Takaki View Post
    @Pikmin1211; Pokemon Online has options for all but rotation battles. None of those you listed are competitive metagames though except Cresselia championships... I mean VGC.

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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    In my opinion Johto had more good than bad.
    One of good things was that original trio still felt like family being portrayed as group of friends which knew each other for a long time whole having fun traveling together and exploring new region starting to mature a bit.
    Ash was still naive but he also started to mature not reacting so impulsively to Misty provocations like he used to.Misty liked to tease and provoke being possessive at times over some things but she also became more tolerant,while Brock made sure to keep group in check giving out vibe of older brother while having his outbursts(especially when it comes to girls).

    One of things i liked about Misty in this region is that she had great dynamic with several characters like fire trainer Egan explaining why she likes water pokemon,drawing nice parallel with Sakura with connection of both having older sisters becoming good friends and rivals in a way,Andreas from Seaking tournament with who he had a bad start later on gaining his respect etc.
    She also had great connection with Brock and Ash having several memorable moments with them.

    I also enjoyed in Whirl Cup being nice change of pace from usual gyms with some nice focus being put on her goal of water master defining it better introducing in Whirl islands ton of great water pokemon and trainers like Luka which later reappeared in Lugia arc.I also liked several episodes where Misty showed ability to get group put of dangerous situations with her intelligence coming into play.Like when she helped group to find way out of forest with Hoot Hoot help in "Illusion Confusion",when she helped saving Pikachu,Togepi and Sentret from giant Rocket tank in "Tanks alot",when she teamed up with Jams and Meowth when group got separated helping them to escape from Ursaring and finding other half of group with there being involved some hilarious interactions,when etc.

    Sam for Brock he had several noteworthy interactions with various characters like Suzy entering breeding competition and returning Vulpix after such a long time,his flirting over girls didnt stayed just on running gag establishing some great and memorable interaction with Temaku,dr.Anna etc.
    I liked that he received several episodes focusing on his carer as breeder displaying great deal of knowledge in episodes like "Little big Horn","A Better Pill to Swallow","Going Apricorn"etc.

    I also liked various mini tournaments Ash entered bringing something fresh and different,Like when he entered pokemon sumo competition with Snorlax in "Ring Masters",grass tournament with Bulbasaur in "Grass route",fire and rescue Grand Prix in "Fire-ring Squad"using his and Misty water pokemon etc or when all three went to pokemon school to help kids out .

    There were also several great episodes introducing legendaries like Entei,Suicune,Zapdos,Lugia,Artuicuno etc.
    Jigglypuff and Delibird were definitely among Johto highlights bringing comedy and many funny moments. Snubull wasnt that bad as recurring pokemon though i feel he lacked some substance to make him truly shine.

    All in all my favorite season from Johto was Master Quest while Johto Journeys and Johto league champions were so so having highlights but als bad things.

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    Revert & Reverberate Miar's Avatar
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    Default Re: To what degree was Johto flawed?

    Its first flaw was its extensive amount of needless episodes made to fill time.
    Not all of the filler was bad, either. But pushing at least half of it aside, it was not a bad three seasons. The end tournament was actually pretty good.

    Its second flaw is that it hasn't been reprinted in DVD boxes yet. I'd buy them.
    sonic10158 likes this.

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