Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

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Thread: Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

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    I! AM NOT! A MORON! Sith Droideka's Avatar
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    Default Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

    Ritchie. Tyson. That fat kid in Hoenn (Morrison?). Tobias. Were these league rivals necessary to the show and an effective way to extend the show?

    Or were they cheap cop-outs or so-called sues out of nowhere to force an artificial defeat?

    Discuss.
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    Cuter in real life Iteru's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

    Apologies about not approving this thread sooner. It slipped through the cracks and a lot of our attention has been elsewhere, which won't happen again.

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    Default Re: Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

    I wouldn't call any of them sues, not even Tobias. Of course it'd be great if Ritchie, Harrison, Tyson and Tobias were actually developed characters but these tournaments are supposed to include trainers from all over the place, so it's hardly unbelieavable that at least one of them would be a powerful trainer.

    Out of the four, only Tobias was a cop-out, in my opinion. We got no background information at all on him; things like how he caught Darkrai and Latios, whether he had other Pokemon on him, where he came from, what he had been doing, etc. Instead we just got this guy appearing out of nowhere with Legendary Pokemon sweeping everyone in his path, and that sort of rubbed me the wrong way. It probably would not have been so bad if the battle was more even in the end since 6-2 doesn't do Ash any justice even if, inadvertedly, beating Darkrai proved Ash was actually the strongest non-Legendary using trainer at that tournament.

    That's what these characters are for, really. Ash is not going to win the whole tournament, so they have him bow out to the eventual tournament winners after giving them a really good and tough battle. It's possible that having a more developed charatcer that had appeared several times before the league be the one to knock out Ash would be better, but I've little issue with the current method. It's not like these characters are pulling out artificial and unrealistic victories.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

    I'll agree on that. Tobias was the least developed, and that's why he seems to be more of an excuse to make Ash lose. (That and he had nothing but legends as far as we know) The others, they at least developed them during the tournament arc, and thus, they seem more like they belong. Heck, I even believe Ash could've beaten Richie if it were not for Char being disobedient. Harrison and Tyson also both barely won against him, so it wasn't cheap by any means. The reason I think they don't do it against the better known rivals who appear throughout the saga is that after all that time, we want to see Ash win. True, it would be a fascinating reversal if he does fail against a rival, but due to the nature of the show, I don't believe that's going to happen. Can Ash finally prevail against these league trainers then? DP showed us he has the potential, but we all know that BW has since borked Ash severely, and I don't expect him to even maintain his former standing, not unless it's horribly forced.

    The odd thought I have about it is that it would prove he is ready to take on anything, and given all the sagas, Ash should already be ready for anything, but again, he has the memory of a goldfish. The real answer is of course that it's the most convenient way of continuing the show with him in it. Despite the slight ambiguity of what Pokemon Master is supposed to be, I still believe that going to the Champion League would result in a dead end where Ash would have to go all the way, and after that, even if they do send him to another region, what would be the point? We would already know he is capable of reaching the top. Unless there is something better than beating a regional Champion out there, there would be no purpose.

    It's a necessary measure, but ever since they pulled out Tobias, I don't think there's any way they can top something that ridiculous. Then again, Harrison and Tyson were pretty much the same thing as well, except Harrison was from a previously unknown region, and Tyson beat Ash without using totally new pokemon. Arguably, I also think it is possible to become skilled enough that even pokemon that are unknown to you are no match, and Harrison's battle does show that. Like I said, he barely won, and that Ash could fight them at all was an amazing feat. (although this would later be discredited when Gary beat him with an Electivire at the end of AG) It is possible that Ash might someday overcome these trainers, but for now, as long as the writers still want to play around with Ash, they will still come up with excuses like this.
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    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

    Well they have to have Ash lose to somebody, why not develop their characters a bit?

    I did like all of them except Richie and maybe Tobias. Morrisson was actually a fun character and I wish he was Ash's rival throughout all of Hoenn. It seems to me that Stephen in BW is almost a "remake" of Morrisson.

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    Default Re: Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

    Not really. Firstly, I personally have no idea why Ritchie was created in the first place; he was only created because Gary lost early on in the Indigo League, which made no sense in the first place, seeing as he was a better trainer than Gary. They could have just shown a bit more of Gary's character and have him do a proper battle with Ash, but no, we couldn't get a full battle between Ash and Gary until the end of the series.

    I can't really complain about Harrison seeing as I've never seen the Johto League Conference, so I guess I'll just move on to Morrison, a fat kid that seemed to either chase rolling sandwiches rice balls (yes, I will never forget that terrible, terrible edit) or freeze mid-battle due to having to battle Ash, who was hardly much of a friend by that point anyway. I can't remember much about Tyson, but he must have been a pretty good character as he managed to win the Hoenn League.

    As for Tobias? I actually kind of liked him. I guess it was pretty cheap to sweep the entire Sinnoh League with just a Darkrai (and Latios at the end), but hey, if the rules state that you can use a legendary, and you have a legendary, why not go ahead and use it? Tough luck if people can't defeat you. But I just have no idea how Ash's Sceptile managed to defeat Darkrai, when no other Pokemon got close at all? And if Ash can defeat a Darkrai, an Articuno, and a few other legendaries in the anime's history, surely he can defeat a Latios as well?

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    Default Re: Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

    Having new rivals and friends for the league is incredibibly realistic if you think about it. Because during the league no one is traveling and everyone has similar interests so it is very likely one will socialize with people there because both parties lack social interaction in their usual lives.

    Also for the most part the are really good character I know a lot of people don't like Ritchie for being a perfect Ash clone but I don't think they are that much a like I believe that idea was manufactured by the writers similiar to how people remember super speed about the first sonic game when it was mostly about platforming the added superspeed element in other games but the fact remains that the core of the gameplay was more jumping than running.

    Tyson great character friendly emotional bantery and quirky without being a jerk about it but above being a really sincere person and a strong trainer.

    Harrison was a tad boring but Morrison was a great character.

    Ash does have to loss to somebody like Gliscor'd said and I think short term developement is the right way to go.

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    Registered User Trainer Gabriel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

    As Gliscor'd pointed out, Ash has gotta lose to somebody. Would you rather have him defeated by some random trainer who makes no on-screen appearances prior to their battle?

    So they may not be "necessary" per say, but they are preferable.
    Last edited by Trainer Gabriel; 2nd March 2012 at 08:00 PM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

    Yeah league rivals were neccessary back then. The same thing will probably happen with BW too. I wouldn't fret about it.

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    Default Re: Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

    He had to lose to someone...

    That said, I liked Tyson and "Meowth in Boots" was a nice touch by the writers, giving both the character and one of his Pokemon a bit of a backstory even though he was just made to beat Ash at Ever Grande and vanish forever (something Tobias really could have done with).

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    Default Re: Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

    Well, yeah, Ash has to lose to someone, but did it really have to be those temporary guys? I mean, they could've easily made Ash VS the regional champion and make a title match - making him lose there.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sith Droideka View Post
    That fat kid in Hoenn (Morrison?). Discuss.
    No, see, his name was King Kai. He's a martial arts master. JK.

    On topic, some were sues and some were cool.

    Ritchie = +
    Gary = +
    Harrison = +
    Morrison = Neutral
    Tyson = +
    Paul = +
    Nando = Neutral
    Barry = Neutral
    Conway = +
    Tobias (his name should've been Tobiason, IMO, but I digress) = -
    Cameron = -
    Trip = Neutral
    Stephan = +

    Key:

    + = Good
    Neutral = Okay
    - = Bad
    Last edited by Pokémon Master Ash; 22nd June 2013 at 06:24 AM.

  13. #13
    NCIS Special Agent DracoMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

    I dunno about "necessary." On one hand, it's nice to see that there are other trainers out there fighting their way to the league tourneys besides the ones Ash interacts with semi-regularly (there are a lot of trainers out there). On the other hand, it's not nice to see Ash lose to somebody who's had no development prior to the tourney, or even during it (*cough*Tobias*cough*). It's bad enough that Ash loses every time; does it have to be to someone we the audience have little-to-no emotional investment in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trainer Gabriel View Post
    As Gliscor'd pointed out, Ash has gotta lose to somebody. Would you rather have him defeated by some random trainer who makes no on-screen appearances prior to their battle?

    So they may not be "necessary" per say, but they are preferable.
    That's only because TPTB have locked themselves into this pattern and apparently aren't even trying to come up with something new. (I have, and I've explained it more than once on various threads. I'm secretly hoping someone on the writing staff is reading these threads and seeing my idea.)
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    Registered User Odinn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

    Actually I liked the concept of Tobias in a way. Ash went up against a trainer that he hasn't talked before. I mean there are a lot of trainers at the start of the league and to become friends Ash always finds the person that he will battle against. I was so tired of this overused scenario.
    Last edited by Odinn; 22nd June 2013 at 07:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Were the "League Rivals" Necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Odinn View Post
    Actually I liked the concept of Tobias in a way. Ash went up against a trainer that he hasn't talked before. I mean there are a lot of friends at the start of the league and to become friends Ash always finds the person that he will battle against. I was so tired of this overused scenario.
    I actually didn't have a problem with the concept of Tobias, so much as how much of an unfair advantage the writers gave him over Ash. Seriously, two legendaries was just overkill, making it so that no matter how good a trainer Ash had become, he would lose for the sake of it.

    As a character himself, I thought it was really cool they made him mysterious. It's when crunch time came in the League that I disliked his purpose.
    Last edited by Pokémon Master Ash; 22nd June 2013 at 07:05 AM.

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