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Thread: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

    You do have a point there, Rex. But no matter, It's still the original music and the basic score shouldn't be replaced AT ALL. I've already explained why I'm not a fan of replacement music (and some other users have explained it better than I have).
    Last edited by BladeLight52; 28th April 2012 at 12:35 AM.

  2. #32
    Face of mercy? NOPE Yato's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

    They shouldn't... the BGMs are mostly from the original games - it loses its originality when they replace it.

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    Default Re: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

    Other than the bullshit "arguments" I've come across about "repeating tracks", or "the previous music from Gens 1-4 isn't being used, so it's limited" without any legitimate reason to back up, are there any real, legitimate reasons why you think that the Best Wishes BGM isn't good to you, P.O.K.E.M.O.N? Is it the orchestration/instrumentation of the music itself that's poor? Composition/arrangements? Is it the sound quality that you're not use to or something? I need reasoning, please. I'm going on like a broken record, but you have to have reason, back-up, and explain why. It helps the reader better understand your opinions. Keep in mind that I'm not looking for a Roger Ebert-esque analysis on your opinion. You just have to stop with these "one-liners" like the examples I mentioned in the first sentence.
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    TR PR/executive Lethal Carnivine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

    At this point, it is what it is. I can say a couple of years ago, I did care about it, but now that I barely watch the show, I can't really complain either way about it.

    A lot of the BW tracks don't really impress me like Diamond and Pearl or the Advanced era did. I just don't really feel anything.

    The dub isn't much better in terms of music now, but at least they are expected to be woefully generic.


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  5. #35
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    Default Re: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

    Absolutely not. I could understand 4kids doing it in the 90s, since back then anime dubbing was still a relatively small circle and not many people were aware of it and companies didn't know how to run things. What's TPCi's excuse for doing it today, in the year 2012? Nothing. There is no excuse for replacing an anime's original music--it's the wrong way of doing things and completely ruins the feeling that the original music may have given certain scenes of the show. You're doing something wrong as a dubbing company when people feel compelled to watch the show that you're responsible for in a language that they can't understand just so they can get the full experience.

  6. #36
    Collects stuff Thingamajig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

    PUSA had no excuse in 2006 to replace the dub music, and really have no right to do so today. Does anyone else besides 4Kids still replace music? Whatever arguments Loeffler et al. had about the original music being too expensive went out the door when they kept 90% of the music throughout season 14 - they're just doing it now because they can and want to.

    Why, though? Is there some other Pokemon board out there that all the 8-10 year-olds visit that has a "How Much of that awful Japanese Music was replaced" thread that they follow intently to gain an idea of the fanbase's support of the way the music is handled, and saw how angry and frustrated they were during season 14? The opinions of this board must take precedence over the only other fans of the show who actually give a flying fuck about what the background music sounds like.
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    Default Re: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

    Well apparently the latest dub episode of Best Wishes kept only 3 pieces of original music. That's worse than Advanced Generation levels of kept original music. TPCi need to seriously get their heads out of their you-know-wheres and put some actual effort into the dub. Many people use the 'this is 2012, not the 1990's' argument when talking about the dub, but anyone paying attention will know that those episodes from the 1990's through to late September 2001 had an average of 70% of the original music being kept, with many episodes in the high 90% levels, so if that's the 1990's and this is 2012, why are we at such outrageously low levels of music kept? Apart from the first episode which only kept 2 pieces of original music, it wasn't until episode 167 that we saw a number as low as only 3 pieces of music being kept. More than 95% of those episodes all kept a number of pieces of music that was in the double digits too. And I may as well throw in the 'and this is 4Kids we're talking about' argument as well.

    I believe that if TPCi still want to replace music with their own terrible music then they should do so only for TV or their online streams on pokemon.com or whatever, but at least put properly dubbed episodes on to the DVDs, so the people who want to enjoy the beautiful original soundtrack, then they can.

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    Default Re: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

    The music? No.

    The Openings? GOD YES REPLACE THEM. The Japanese ones are boring.

    Why replace vocals? Because translations never work out for songs. Either you lose the rhyming or you lose the meaning. Its always a compromise.
    Last edited by Ranger Jack Walker; 1st May 2012 at 01:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

    From what I've seen in popular anime dubs when it comes to intros is:

    1. They use the Japanese song, with or without subtitles.
    2. They use the Japanese song but translate it into English.
    3. They make up something new.

    I enjoy the Kanto through Hoenn songs but, minus "We Will Carry On", the newer songs are lacking. "Battle Cry" was an okay song but that's about it - it's catchy but I don't know if I'd call it on par with previous intros.

    I can't put my finger on why but none of the recent songs are very good.

  10. #40
    Registered User Bugg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Jack Walker View Post
    The music? No.

    The Openings? GOD YES REPLACE THEM. The Japanese ones are boring.

    Why replace vocals? Because translations never work out for songs. Either you lose the rhyming or you lose the meaning. Its always a compromise.
    You're right, I sure am glad that they replaced those godawful Japanese openings with the highly superior and masterful English openings from our very own TPCi.


    ...Though I do admit that 4kids made some pretty rockin' openings, TPCi has never made a single one that I like. But in the end, the Japanese OPs will always prevail.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

    In answer to the title question, ABSOLUTELY NOT for three fundamental reasons. 1) It's a matter of principle, 2) the commercial value to the Japanese compositions are far greater than their English counterparts and 3) the quality of the original music is so much better. And I'm going to elaborate on each of these points:

    1. MATTER OF PRINCIPLE

    For one thing, Anime Dubs that replace all or even any of the original Japanese music are in the extreme minority, especially these days. Conversely, foreign adaptations of English animated adaptations scarcely (if at all) replace any of the BGM in their versions.

    Furthermore, this same concept that applies in any other aspect of the Pokemon Anime, or by extension, the English adaptation of any other Japanese Anime. Beyond that even, the same concept would apply to a movie adaptation of a book, a movie adaptation of a television show, a remake of a movie or a television adaptation of a comic book series. The concept in question is that you don't change the fundamentals of the product at its core. If it's necessary to change around a few aspects to suit the extended medium in question, then go ahead and do so, but don't alter the fundamentals that make the franchise what it is to begin with.

    I can assure you that there is absolutely NO NECESSITY WHATSOEVER in altering (or adding to) any of the instrumental music from the original Japanese version of the Pokemon Anime.

    On vocal songs, I can give a small amount of credence to replacing those. Even then, outside the openings and endings, the lyrics could just as easily be translated. And on top of that, the credit sequence would need to be replaced, if at all, only during the network airings where time is limited. Furthermore, I would to note that I have periodically compared the duration of Pokemon with other shows on its same line-up. All other shows clock in at least a minute longer that the Pokemon Dub. One minute longer would be sufficient to at least include the Japanese Opening in its entirety.

    2. COMMERCIAL VALUE

    It goes without saying that Japanese composition carry far greater commercial value than their English counterparts these days. The Japanese BGM (and in some case the vocal songs) are easily recognized by fans across the globe due to the fact that much of it is remixed versions of Video game tracks, as well as music composed for the movies (which thankfully the Dub has kept ever since #4). Add to it the fact that the Japanese music from both the regular series and the movies constantly get put out on CDs, and you know it is very marketable.

    Conversely, there has only been one CD released for the English compositions within the past decade (and that was exclusively vocal songs, most of which were previously composed) and none released in the last five years. And it's no wonder. The English compositions overall, aside from being very bland, generic, and in some cases flat out ugly, are just very forgettable. The only English music to even have a remote level of marketability are the vocal songs. And for those, I'd say the patent on there economic life is about one year max before everyone outside the hardcore fanbase completely forgets about them.

    Back during fad stage however (1998-2001), I''ll concede that much of the English composed music (whatever anyone thought of its quality, which I'll get into in just a moment) had a good deal of commercial value. You had CD's being released left and right of, such as 2.B.A. Master and the instrumental music that was replaced for the first three movies. You even remixes of very early Dub exclusive BGM from the series used in the US released of the Pokemon version of Panel De Pon/Tetris Attack, otherwise known as Pokemon Puzzle League for the N64 Platform.

    3. SUPERIOR QUALITY

    This is the only category that is subjective in nature. But I think given the overall variety and the sheer amount of work put into the Japanese compositions, coupled with a balanced scoring of said compositions in the actual series, it is a pretty daunting task to argue that the English music is even remotely up to par. I'l just give one of the thousands of examples that already exist.

    A while back, I brought up the two different Dubbed versions of Playing the Performance Encore. Thankfully, the version that made its initial debut on CartoonNetwork maintain all the music as is (sans the title screen theme) unchanged. Well, it was a completely different story for the version that streamed on Pokemon.com. In that version, the well known instrumental theme to Hikari/Dawn was actually replaced during the climax. So instead of an upbeat, uplifting and cheerful tune that went along perfectly well with Dawn's come from behind victory, we get (as indicated above) this bland, generic, and plain ugly track with the Dub composers' traditional synthesizer at work, which completely alters the feel of that moment, thus rendering said victory effectively meaningless.
    Proud member of the Pokemon BGM Club

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    Devil Lobster Man Ranger Jack Walker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bugg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Jack Walker View Post
    The music? No.

    The Openings? GOD YES REPLACE THEM. The Japanese ones are boring.

    Why replace vocals? Because translations never work out for songs. Either you lose the rhyming or you lose the meaning. Its always a compromise.
    You're right, I sure am glad that they replaced those godawful Japanese openings with the highly superior and masterful English openings from our very own TPCi.


    ...Though I do admit that 4kids made some pretty rockin' openings, TPCi has never made a single one that I like. But in the end, the Japanese OPs will always prevail.
    I like Rival Destinies. : |

    People say that the english openings are 'cheesy' but no one ever defines what 'cheesy' is. The Japanese Lyrics are cheesy to me just like the english ones are cheesy for you guys.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

    I remember saying this on the old music thread:
    It feels like that the US is the only country in the world that likes to change anything that is a foreign product. To put it fairly, sometimes American cartoons have their fair share of changes whenever they are distributed internationally (e.g. Japanese Beast Wars). 99.99% of the time however, the instrumental BGM is left intact in distributed US cartoons (Heck, even macekres like japanese beast wars had the original music intact.) So why is it that North America sometimes wants to replace parts (or ALL) of the BGM whenever anime is airing on daytime television? Is TPCi that uptight about what episodes they get from Japan? Is it really that hard to be that of the same quality as the japanese version? Why do we always end up with the inferior version? It's one thing to edit anime for Standards and Practices, but why change harmless things like the BGM and filling in silence resulting in constant sound for 22 full minutes? To quote the Nostalgia Critic in "The Magic Voyage" review:

    It's like it's afraid if it stops being loud and bouncy, it will lose the children's attention. And that's not a good thing. Children need slow moments. They need pauses. It teaches them patience and the appreciation of atmosphere. This...this is just waving your keys in front of their dumb little faces an hour and a half.
    Change "an hour and a half" to "22 minutes", and you'll see my point.
    And another thing that I came across (note that I did not say the quote below):
    Blue Dragon, Dragon Ball Z, and GT had their soundtracks changed. Why are you complaining about Pokemon getting it's soundtrack changed rather than those other shows?
    Why am I not complaining about that? Because their latest DVD's restore the original BGM in it's entirety, while Pokemon DVD's, on the other hand, still have a mix of Japanese BGM and American BGM.
    Last edited by BladeLight52; 3rd May 2012 at 12:52 AM.
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  14. #44
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    Default Re: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

    My answer to this question is, absolutely not, like many others on this thread have said. To back me up on this, I completely agree with everything that Kazamatsuri said in his post on the 1st May. It is completely unnecessary and takes away the value of the show, and as someone else has said in this thread, I also think that it is a complete insult to the talents of Mr Shinji Miyazaki, makes all his work a complete waste of effort.

    Like others, I did find 4Kid’s Dub music quite good, vocal / opening songs especially, barring, the Chronicles theme, a pointless and disappointing remix of the Gold & Silver Poké Rap, and you know 4Kids could have done better. At least the Italians created their own song that was unique and overall, catchy and also “Misty’s Song” from 2BA Master as it just takes cheesiness to the max, sorry shippers .

    TPCi is kind of a mix bag vocal song wise, I could list the songs that I like but that’s really meant for another thread. TPCi should give us the option of Sub / Dub to their DVD’s or how about the option to watch the Dub with the Japanese soundtrack like Funimation does with their Dragon Ball DVDs and it is a massive shame that they are not capitalizing on this type of market for the show where the majority of anime’s are given proper treatment which includes a near 100% translation, eye catches, opening and closing credits are retained including the soundtrack.

    To me the reason that the Japanese stuff is “too expensive” and “licensing issues etc” is pathetic since TPCi is part of a company that already draws in an extortionate fee of money from selling games, manga and other merchandising so you think that even if they did have to pay for the Japanese music, they would allocate a specific sum of money for that purpose within the dubs budget.

    I would really think that Pokémon would work better on a direct to DVD / Blu Ray Release, anime’s such as Fairy Tail sell pretty well on the domestic format and that’s without even being aired on TV and that’s saying quite a lot.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Should the dubbing companies of the Pokémon Anime replace BGM and songs?

    Well, today I've watched "Stopping the Rage of legends part 2" and counted 6 pieces out of 13 used in the original. It still puzzles me what the heck is going on in TPCi's minds and how they run their business. If it's some kind of contractual agreement, how long is it going to last? A lifetime until the series is over (which I doubt it'll end anytime soon)? If they can use the original music for the movies, why not the TV series? Another thing, they don't know how to come up with the appropriate music either. It's like this: the original scene is serious, but the dub puts goofy music, but the other way around when the original scene is funny, they put serious music. The quality of the dub music is not subjective because I have yet to like a piece of instrumental dub music that is on par with the original. I also have yet to come across one person who actually likes TPCi's music. Plus, if TPCi is aware of the majority preference to the original music, why are they ignoring us? It's giving me a migraine.

    But the music is subjec-
    It's still the original music.

    But sometimes, Cilan's theme doesn-
    Again, it's not their moral right.

    As for repeating BGM, BladeLight52, it all depends on the qual-
    Do I have to say it the third time?

    My point is: the original music, whether it's good, bad, big, small, repeats itself, has variety and all that crap, IT SHOULD NOT BE REPLACED...EVER. TPCi, didn't make the music, the music is already placed, and should not be tampered with. I agree with charizardmaster about Mr. Miyazaki's 14 years of hard work go to waste for some uninspired, untalented, sorry excuse for dub music.

    *sigh* I REALLY wanted to get that out.
    Last edited by BladeLight52; 5th May 2012 at 10:45 PM.

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