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  1. #61
    Christmas Bubble Frog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Did she? Was she portrayed as doing as causing the problem in the episode? No, she was portrayed as doing what every trainer, including Ash, Dento, etc. do: If you're pokémon is still able to battle, encourage it to give it his/her all and to do her best, even if the pokémon they're fighting might be stronger. Shaga and the Village Elder saw nothing wrong with her behaviour and even Dento, when explaining things to Iris is saying that part of Doryuuzu's attitude is because it wasn't used to losing and partially because he freaked out and misunderstood Iris's encouragement as her not caring. Throughout, the problem is solely portrayed as being Doryuuzu's and Doryuuzu's only. Iris later apologizing for encouraging Doryuuzu not to give up when it wanted to is actually one of the more broken aesop's I've seen in the anime and one of the least touching moments ever shown.
    She didn't understand her Pokemon's feelings, which was the problem. If Iris was a more understanding trainer, then Doryuuzu wouldn't have locked itself away from her. .
    Still, Iris was shown to be knowledgeable of battles and extremely skilled at it with Shaga implying she would have needed to study intensely battling to reach that level of skill, which of course, she didn't need to do, cause she was a friend of all the woodland creatures. already knows the ins and outs of battles, even managing to win a local tournament over people who looked like they had been training longer than she has. The image that the episode sent was that of Iris as a prodigy, as an already very capable, very knowledgeable trainer that really has no real area where she needs to improve herself to reach her goal of becoming a Dragon Master. Right now, she's just waiting for Kibago to reach her level of skills and power more than growing side by side with it. BW030 showed us that if Iris had a grown Dragon Pokémon, she would be more than capable of being a threat against anybody, on top of being already able to communicate, sense and calm dragons.
    Dento knows the basics of battling too, he must have trained hard and studied intensely to become a A-Rank Sommelier and Gym Leader your point?

    How the heck did the people at the tournament that one person she battled at the tournament look like he trained harder then Iris?

    You could say the same thing about Dento already knowing how to communicate, battle, and being knowledgable.

    She already knows how to take a pokémon from weak to very strong,
    Every trainer knows that, that's basic.

    Langley who challenges Iris's character, Iris's methods in no way, shape or form. If anything, the writers are portraying Langley as overly bitchy and mean to make Iris look good in comparaison as opposed to use Langley to point out flaws in Iris and force her to challenge herself.
    Didn't Langley point out her not having enough Dragons one flaw I can remember by heart. What about Cabernet? Dento didn't get any flaws pointed out by her, he was the doing the pointing, as if Cabernet is the main character.


    No but we know how things went in the past, Iris and Kibago were confronted with an Ice type pokémon and both shrugged it off in 2 seconds. Neither was shown to be impeded in their ability to battle, ergo, not a flaw, not an obstacle
    .

    I didn't know you could see into the future or past. Because, both were scared to battle. The minute things looked bad Iris got less confident. Tsunbear is a Ice-Type a trained Ice-Type not a wild Pokemon.
    As a joke, as if it was funny, which means that it's not treated as a flaw by the writers.
    Guess you could say the same thing for Iris and Satoshi getting mad over Dento betting his Pokemon right?

    Ultimately, that's the problem with Iris. She's not vulnerable, not relatable, not compelling and therefore, totally uninteresting. With Satoshi's bland reserves, she's easily the low point of Best Wishes.
    Honestly if you think Iris is a boring and uninteresting character. What's the point of having these debates? You obviously aren't gonna change your mind because Iris will always be a bad character to you. It's no secret you loved Hikari back in Shin'ou. If you don't like her, and you have your heart set on not liking her "sucky, uninteresting, bitchy, boring character" is there any real point to discussing this anymore?

    Dento may be a funny guy, but he's still flawless. Takeshi was no way in heck flawless compared to Dento, even when he was comedic.

  2. #62
    Easy listening Masurao's Avatar
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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by gotpika View Post

    Dento knows the basics of battling too, he must have trained hard and studied intensely to become a A-Rank Sommelier and Gym Leader your point?
    Except he read Ash wrong, and paid for it with a loss, showing he's not as accurate in his readings as he thinks he is. That's kind of why he is traveling with Ash, to possibly learn more from him.

    But w/e, this argument is getting old, I honestly don't see Iris as any better as a trainer than Ash, or Cilan.
    Last edited by Masurao; 14th June 2011 at 06:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Masurao View Post
    Except he read Ash wrong, and paid for it with a loss, showing he's not as accurate in his readings as he thinks he is. That's kind of why he is traveling with Ash, to possibly learn more from him.

    But w/e, this argument is getting old, I honestly don't see Iris as any better as a trainer than Ash, or Cilan.
    Iris read Doryuuzu wrong, showing she can't understand Pokemon completely despite being at one with nature. She took responsibility for herself. I don't think Dento said, to himself. "I was wrong" or "I was incorrect". He was just impressed Satoshi.

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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Some people don't even care about Iris at all, so why should they bother to comments on her flaws or lack thereof, and if they're adressed or not if they don't even like the character at all?

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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    I'd say Iris, without a doubt, has the most flaws. She's way too sure of herself, and yet she can't back it up. Sure, her Drilbur (now Excadrill) was/is powerful, and a 99-win streak is nothing to sneeze at in the anime, but all that went right up to her noggin. When Drayden creamed her, it unlocked insecurities, but she still thinks she's top dog. She's way too boastful, but she hasn't won a single battle since she became part of the group (I'm not dismissing the 99-wins, but we have yet to really see her do any serious battling). I know what you'll say, yes, I do acknowledge the Dragon Buster episode as serious battling, but even with renewed confidence between her and Excadrill, she still lost both times (yes, the second time was a "draw", but I feel it was still a loss). Let's look at the facts: Axew is still in training, Excadrill (originally) wouldn't listen to her (although that is fixed, much to my displeasure), and Emolga is a spoiled brat who would rather con her "friends" out of lunch than battle. Her overconfidence and downright obnoxiousness is always visible, but she can't back it up, plus the "you're such a kid" lines have REALLY worn me thin. The only time she's really helpful is with her herbal medicines, but that's it. So, in short, Iris has the most flaws. At least Ash can win a battle, even if he does get ahead of himself most (if not, all) the time.

    As for the least amount of flaws, Cilan is the winner of that category. He's confident in his abilities, but doesn't rub it in. Even when he blows a fuse, he shrugs it off and returns to what he was doing. That spells maturity. He also has faith in his friends, and I love some of his comments (especially towards Ash, since it's obvious Ash's uniqueness impresses him). He just gives off that vibe that you can count on him for anything, whether it be words of advice, helping during trying times, or caretaking, whatever it may be. Out of all the main males (Brock, Tracey, and Max), he definitely has the most level head and the least likely to act out of character. He probably have a few flaws, but I can't quite see any at this time. So, long story short, Cilan has the least amount of flaws.

    Which means Ash is the middle ground of the trio, although he can sway either way, he at least gets things done when it matters most.
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    Cuter in real life Iteru's Avatar
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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Get back to the topic, and not if people should or should not post.

  7. #67
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by gotpika View Post
    Dento
    is not Iris, and therefore the two should not be compared. Going back to what I was saying about holism, that a system is more than just the sum of its parts, of its basic components. By comparing Iris and Dento, you're ultimately showing a reductionist or divisionist line of thought, which means that the system is solely the sum of its parts and that to unsertand the system, one requires only to understand the parts. In this case, a reductionist line of thought would look at the Mary Sue label solely as an accumulation of traits, and that therefore, if another character displays similar traits, he/she must then also be a Mary Sue. Except, in this case, it doesn't really apply since almost all fictional characters have one or more "Mary Sue traits" somewhere in them. So what makes the difference between a well-developped character and a Mary Sue: that where holism comes from. It's more than just an accumulation of traits, it's also how the traits relate to one another, the role the character in question plays in the story, and how much the presence of the character stops the narrative dead in its track by prohibiting any developpement.

    Let's take an example. Yes, Dento doesn't have a lot of flaws, but as CommanderPigg pointed out, he's there to bring comedy to the show, and as Cynthialover pointed out, he's also the more mature and advisory component of the main cast. As such, it's expected that he'll have less flaws, that he'll be knowledgeable because he's mostly there to be the guide to help others develop. The question then becomes: does it stop the narrative dead in its tracks? The answer is no, quite the contrary, he's often the vector for developement, helping others grow, all the while being shown as a character who still has a lot to learn about being a trainer, a sommelier and a person. And when he does show flaws, they are not well received, and they cost him, force him to redefine his goals.

    Iris's purpose on the other hand is different. She's clearly there to bring some pathos to the show, make an emotional appeal to the audience. Ergo, it's primordial for her to be vulnerable, to be relatable, to have a compelling storyline, to overcome difficulties, etc. So far, the writers haven't done that. For example, portraying a character as a prodigy isn't bad per se, but when the writers then don't introduce any problem that is directly caused by the character itself, then very simply the character becomes above the problems, doesn't learn from them, doesn't develop because of them, which is what's happening here with Iris.

    For example, in BW030, Iris had no problems sensing, calming and communicating with Dragons, teaching Emmy how to bring out the most in her Dragon pokémon, basically, all the skills necessary to become a Dragon Master, Iris has already displayed them. So it then becomes just a waiting game, waiting for Kibago to grow and reach her level of skill and knowledge, and that's where it's uninteresting because it stunts the story. Since they're not learning side by side, we get things like Kibago learning how to master Dragon Rage all on its own in BW030 without any real involvement from Iris... because she already knows this stuff. The same apply with BW036 where she shown to be perfectly capable and her battling skills are praised by Shaga, etc.

    In short, there's a dichotomy between the role they want Iris to play, and the way they are handling her character. The choices they're making as far as her story is concerned not only impedes on their goal with the character, but also stunts not only her own developpement, but the developement of other characters (Satoshi/Shooti rivalry for example).
    Shinneth likes this.

  8. #68
    ポケモン Tsutarja's Avatar
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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    And here were back at the Mary Sue. Why is that concept even brought up? If anyone is a Sue in the main cast, it's Dento because no matter how humorous of a character he might be - he's pretty much perfect if you ignore his lack of belief in supernatural and casual overconfidence which isn't even displayed often.
    Bubble Frog likes this.

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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    As Shinneth pointed out, it's not that Dento doesn't have any flaws—It's just that his age, experience, character role, and level of professionalism makes it more believable that he's as seemingly "perfect" as he is right now. The best way to showcase his flaws would probably be through flash backs, but even then, I would hardly pin him as a mary-sue since he hardly has an important plot point going for him currently. I seriously don't see his existence on the show to be hindering anyone else's development.

    "seasons change, people change"

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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Let's take an example. Yes, Dento doesn't have a lot of flaws, but as CommanderPigg pointed out, he's there to bring comedy to the show, and as Cynthialover pointed out, he's also the more mature and advisory component of the main cast. As such, it's expected that he'll have less flaws, that he'll be knowledgeable because he's mostly there to be the guide to help others develop. The question then becomes: does it stop the narrative dead in its tracks? The answer is no, quite the contrary, he's often the vector for developement, helping others grow, all the while being shown as a character who still has a lot to learn about being a trainer, a sommelier and a person. And when he does show flaws, they are not well received, and they cost him, force him to redefine his goals.
    *Rips Braids Out*
    Thanks for answering that question. Like I said, Dento is the flawless one of the cast, the ultimate question we've been quarreling for 5 pages. He's a funny guy, so. Doesn't mean I'm gonna grant him a pass if he's a badly written character in the same aspects Iris supposedly is. No, his one moment of correction was when Mijumaru beat Yanappu and that was for one reason, to get him to join Satoshi-Tachi plot purposes not character development.


    For example, in BW030, Iris had no problems sensing, calming and communicating with Dragons, teaching Emmy how to bring out the most in her Dragon pokémon, basically, all the skills necessary to become a Dragon Master, Iris has already displayed them. So it then becomes just a waiting game, waiting for Kibago to grow and reach her level of skill and knowledge, and that's where it's uninteresting because it stunts the story. Since they're not learning side by side, we get things like Kibago learning how to master Dragon Rage all on its own in BW030 without any real involvement from Iris... because she already knows this stuff. The same apply with BW036 where she shown to be perfectly capable and her battling skills are praised by Shaga, etc.
    We've been over this a gillion times..

    The choices they're making as far as her story is concerned not only impedes on their goal with the character, but also stunts not only her own developpement, but the developement of other characters (Satoshi/Shooti rivalry for example).
    Ok. Satoshi and Shuuti's rivalry isn't "up" to the standard some fans want it to be because, Satoshi simply isn't a character who can cause conflict. He's not gonna insult, Shuuti's done nothing wrong.
    Last edited by Bubble Frog; 15th June 2011 at 11:43 AM.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    *sigh*

    Neither Dento or Iris are Gary/Mary sues.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    When I refer to Iris's backstory shown in BW036 as something that has a Mary Sue quality, it's not because of the traits showed there themselves, but because they stunt her developement. By showing Iris have 99 straight wins before most trainers even get their first pokémon, by showing Iris impressing a Dragon Master/Gym Leader and the Village Elder with her battling skills so much that Shaga asks her if she studied battles intensely... the writers made Iris out to be a very knowledgeable and skillful trainer at a very young age.
    I cant really see why people find this as some kind of issue.Iris having strong pokemon already is not unrealistic when we take in account how she owned him for years before she met Dento and Ash going through heavy training and battling with him.
    People tend to forget how many of her wins with Ecadrill were against wild pokemon with trainers she faced in tournament being on local basis and not some unbeatable battling machines.She met him as already strong wild Drillbur training and battling with him for a long time explaining why he became stronger.Considering how many battles and training they together had its not unbelievable for Iris to posses already good pokemon as 10 year old.

    Also since characters dont age Ash,May,Misty,Dawn etc are still 10 year old being already strong trainers having powerful pokemon but i dont see people being shocked about their strength.

    Granted thy werent like Iris at start but they also didnt had pokemon at such a young age battling on frequent basis like Iris did as BW 36th episode showed.

    That alone doesn't make Iris a Mary Sue, as you can have very powerful near invicible characters that are still well-developed because they show limitations in other areas, but in Iris's case, they haven't shown Iris to have any problems as a trainer, any limitations. None of her problems stem from her, and none of her "flaws" actually act as an obstacle for her developement.
    Here is where i have to disagree.One of biggest flaws which stand on Iris way of growing in stronger dragon trainer is her passive approach toward training pokemon and resolving issues surrounding them like it is case with disobedient Emolga,insecure and relatively weak Axew and until recently out of control Excadrill.
    Reason is because Iris lost confidence in her abilities as trainer after her Excadrill stopped listening to her because of not wanting to fail Iris expectations anymore after that crushing defeat with Drayden.From that moment Iris already realized how she was responsible for this problem throwing blame on herself because of pushing her pokemon too hard in battle not wanting to repeat same mistake with her other pokemon.

    This can be seen in Iris at start often criticizing Ash character because of some mistakes reminding herself of being too stubborn and reckless in past which caused Excadrill to act like pseudo stone toward her.This can be noticed when she hesitated in using Axew attacks asking Dento to go easy on him wanting to avoid same scenary which happened against Drayden.

    Only reason why she battled Langley without any hesitation was because she was provoked to such extent that her reputation of trainer started to be questioned being part of Iris character of wanting to defend that.We can see prior to that that she is very proud in her abilities as dragon trainer and knowledge she has about them.
    However after that defeat we can see that Iris changed abit in this episode being ready to admit how she was responsible for Excadrill disobedience pushing him too hard,something which we didnt see before that,Character being able to recognize his own mistakes is step forward allowing for further character development since Iris isnt ignorant anymore not overlooking her own flaws.
    She didnt restored completely her confidence as trainer back but with this episode she made notable step forward renewing connection she had with mole.

    As we can see she is still passive toward her pokemon like it was evidenced with Emolga on one hand lacking confidence rather letting her pokemon to grow on their own because of negative experiences in past while on other lacking knowledge and authority to get her pokemon on right track.

    Emolga disobedience may be part of her character but if she was caught with more authoritative trainer she would probably be put under control by now.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Speaking of Iris flaws which comes from her aside of fearing to do same mistake with her pokemon again she also cant handle any constructive critic which can be noticed in her reactions toward Ash and lately Langley which clouds her rational judgment .
    Langley at first glance doesnt seem like someone who is standing on Iris way,but she will most likely end up as her rival serving as obstacle which Iris would need to overcome to grow in capable and strong dragon trainer.
    Her critic of Iris lacking dragon types for someone who plans to become dragon master raises up valid point too being one of flaws she recognized in her character which she would have to fix if she plans to accomplish her dream.

    Quote Originally Posted by CommanderPigg View Post
    As Shinneth pointed out, it's not that Dento doesn't have any flaws—It's just that his age, experience, character role, and level of professionalism makes it more believable that he's as seemingly "perfect" as he is right now. The best way to showcase his flaws would probably be through flash backs, but even then, I would hardly pin him as a mary-sue since he hardly has an important plot point going for him currently. I seriously don't see his existence on the show to be hindering anyone else's development.
    Which is a problem in itself.That small handful flaws Dento seem to have,have not been portrayed as something which stand on his way preventing him from going forward,.Because of everything being played for comedy purposes not being treated as something serious is causing Dento character to suffer not having any personal struggles or mistakes from which he needs to learn to develop more.
    When even recurring much less important characters seem to have more flaws than main character you know you have a problem.

    He is already great connoisseur,good cook,good at fishing,battling and resolving mysteries not having any real problems to overcome being competent and confident in himself.Every problem which is pit infront of him he manage to overcome with minimum effort,this can be noticed when he displayed his fishing skills or when he battles.
    At this point every past main character who left cast(except maybe Tracey and that is only because he didnt received any development to allow some flaws appearing in his story)and current characters seem to have more flaws than i can say for Dento.
    Not that its a bad ting because competent and knowledgeable characters can be appealing sand fun to audience but as result of that they cant be properly developed if everything they do passes without having to worry about consequences behind their actions.

    Even Dento overconfidence and arrogance wasnt portrayed as something problematic which needs to be fixed considering how he was still arrogant toward Cabernet not costing him anything winning without any problem.
    If something doesnt changes im concerned for Dento character and in which direction he seems to be taken.

  13. #73
    You think you're bad, don't ya? Karamazov's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    I think that, later in the saga when everyone develops, Ash would have the least flaws. He would have grown, matured, and likely drop the stupidity levels to be ready for the League.

    "Playing around?" Wrong.

  14. #74
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja View Post
    Why is that concept even brought up?
    Because Iris is dangerously close to being one.

    If anyone is a Sue in the main cast, it's Dento because no matter how humorous of a character he might be
    Except, it does matter and here's why...

    Quote Originally Posted by gotpika View Post
    Doesn't mean I'm gonna grant him a pass if he's a badly written character in the same aspects Iris supposedly is.
    Comparing Iris and Dento is comparing apples and oranges. Just because one trait doesn't work in Iris's favor doesn't mean that the same trait cannot work in Dento's favour because ultimately, they're two completely different characters, with two totally different background and two totally different roles to play on the show. The way he has little flaws (but the ones he does have cost him and he gets called out on for real) is explained by his role in the scheme of things. Dento's the guide, the person who gives advice. Far from stopping the story dead in its tracks with his lack of flaws, he's actually joined Satoshi because he could learn something from him, and has been a vector of developement for Satoshi throughout Best Wishes. So, having little in the way of flaws isn't actually a bad thing in this case since it makes it believable for him to play the part of the guide, and also, the background that he has makes it believable that he would have already overcome a lot of his flaws.

    With Iris, on the other hand, the writers are treating her character as an emotional appeal. They want the audience to connect to her story, to show her as someone who goes through hardships, and overcomes them, someone we can root for, but there's a dichotomy between that goal and the decisions they've made regarding Iris's character, such as showing her as already having all the skills required of a Dragon Master in BW030 and BW036, showing her as confident in front of adversaries, having none of her problems stemming from her, etc. They're effectively trying to treat Iris as a character that the audience is supposed to identify with and care for, but at the same time, do not make her vulnerable or relatable. They're a contradiction here and that contradiction, that break in the narrative, that's what makes the difference between a well-developed character and a Mary Sue, and that's what, in this case, makes Iris a very uninteresting character. Plus, not satisied with just stunting her own story, the way the writers treat Iris stunts the developement and storyline of other character who are meant to also be emotional appeals to the audience, such as having Shooti show more interest in battling Iris than Satoshi, being more affected by her taunts than by Satoshi, etc. Also, by not calling Iris out on her flaws and mistakes, such as deliberately putting Doryuuzu in arms way just to win a battle, the writers are robbing Satoshi, Dento and other characters of moments that could make them develop, could make them show character, since this is exactly the kind of things that Satoshi had against Shinji. That could lead to some interesting interactions, some conflict between Satoshi and Iris, but that's nipped in the bud by the writers who simply refuse to let Iris be the cause of any problem, show any flaw.

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    One of biggest flaws which stand on Iris way of growing in stronger dragon trainer is her passive approach toward training pokemon
    Is it a flaw? The writers had Dento portray it as a strenght and Kibago learned Dragon Rage eventually, gradually becoming stronger, effectively rewarding the method.

    resolving issues surrounding them like it is case with disobedient Emolga
    Given that she's not the cause, there really isn't anything she can do. Emonga is disobedient because of its personality and only when that personality change will it start to listen to Iris. Here, Emonga has to develop, to change, to grow, not Iris.

    Reason is because Iris lost confidence in her abilities as trainer after her Excadrill stopped listening to her because of not wanting to fail Iris expectations anymore after that crushing defeat with Drayden.From that moment Iris already realized how she was responsible for this problem throwing blame on herself because of pushing her pokemon too hard in battle not wanting to repeat same mistake with her other pokemon.
    No. Iris never even considered that the problem with Doryuuzu might have something to do with her until BW036 (and even then, it actually wasn't portrayed as such), and therefore had no introspection about being responsible for Doryuuzu's behaviour. All the while, she was shown to be very confident in her knowledge, in her ability to solve her "problems", in her abilities as a Dragon trainer, even teaching Emmy who had legit confidence issues, how to do it. In the near future, she decides to enter into a battling tournament, whereas Hikari who again had legit confidence issues had to be forced into participating in the Hearthome Tag Team Battle. In BW036, she's even willing to overcome her fear and encourage Kibago to do the same because she's confident they can win against Langley.
    Last edited by Hellion; 15th June 2011 at 09:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Masurao View Post
    *sigh*

    Neither Dento or Iris are Gary/Mary sues.
    This really. Yeah Dent is nearly flawless and Iris is strong but has a lot of flaws, it doesn't mean they're sues at all. The whole Sue argument is stupid if you ask me...
    Chronos likes this.

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