Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws? - Page 3

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 95
Like Tree64Likes

Thread: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

  1. #31
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    The Danger Room
    Posts
    7,083
    Blog Entries
    43

    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Masurao View Post
    I also think calling Iris "super powerful" is a bit of an exaggeration.
    That was just a way to phrase it. :P

    I don't think Iris is super powerful or more powerful or a better trainer than Satoshi, but she was portrayed as somewhat of a prodigy, since kids younger than 10 aren't supposed to be trainers, let alone defeat 99 opponents with OHKO and win a local tournament. Again, compared to kids "in universe", it's not ordinary, it's not common and that's the point. While we saw Satoshi struggle when he started, not know certain things, Iris seems to know everything about training, attacks and strategies, and I repeat had 99 OHKO vicotires where her mole didn't get hit once. Same for Dento, we've seen leaders as young and strong as he is, he's not an exception. We've seen him make mistakes as a sommelier and as a trainer, lose battles. The whole reason he's traveling with Ash is because he feels that he doesn't know everything and that watching Ash will teach him how to be a better sommelier.

    Same with Iris's "problematic" team, none of the problems on there stem from Iris, none of the problems stem from her shortcomings as a character or as a person, and therefore, there resolution cannot bring developpement to Iris, unless the writers make some difficulties come from her, show her making mistakes, treat her flaws and shortcomings as such.

    Again, while all three of them have flaws and aren't invincible battling gods, Iris's flaws aren't treated as such, making those flaws unable to make Iris and her story really progress, really move forward, stopping the progress dead in its track. Still, I don't think it's too late for the writers to reverse that trend, but they are running out of time to really make Iris into a compelling character and not a Canon Sue.

  2. #32
    ポケモン Tsutarja's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    3,346
    Blog Entries
    564

    Follow Tsutarja on Tumblr

    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    What about Cilan? People tend to like him even more than Iris without any flaws of his own. How is that possible? Or do those sort of rules get ignored when it comes to the male sidekick?

  3. #33
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    The Danger Room
    Posts
    7,083
    Blog Entries
    43

    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Overconfidence and arrogance are his flaws, and they're treated as such, costing him a battle against Satoshi, and being called out by Cabernet for him teasing her, and seeing Satoshi and Iris react negatively when he bet that should he lose, Satoshi would release all his pokémon. The whole reason he's travelling with Ash is because he thinks he can learn from Ash, learn how to be a better sommelier, because he's still got a lot to learn.

  4. #34
    ポケモン Tsutarja's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    3,346
    Blog Entries
    564

    Follow Tsutarja on Tumblr

    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    But we only really saw those characteristics of his in the Cabernet episode, somehow I'd wish he could more act like his arrogant self. XD

  5. #35
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    The Danger Room
    Posts
    7,083
    Blog Entries
    43

    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja View Post
    But we only really saw those characteristics of his in the Cabernet episode, somehow I'd wish he could more act like his arrogant self. XD
    ...and in his gym battle against Satoshi... and when he thinks he's always right about the scientific explanation of things. He's always proven wrong and that's what's funny, that's where the humour comes.

    He's also been shown on several occasions to have a short temper. Again, I repeat, all three of them have flaws, but only Satoshi and Dento are treated as such, costing them battles, seeing others call them out on their flaws.

  6. #36
    ポケモン Tsutarja's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    3,346
    Blog Entries
    564

    Follow Tsutarja on Tumblr

    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    To be honest, it really didn't cost him anything.

    Iris's immaturity and lack of knowledge when she was a kid resulted in a disobedient Pokémon and cold relationship with Excadrill and her lack of authority resulted in a disobedient Emonga who dislikes to battle. Cilan may have those flaws you just mentioned, but it never went the bad way for him. He's still the cool, funny guy who's better than everyone else and is great at everything he does. Except when it comes to believing in spirits, apparently.

    Imo, the only real flaws have Ash and Iris.

  7. #37
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    The Danger Room
    Posts
    7,083
    Blog Entries
    43

    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja View Post
    To be honest, it really didn't cost him anything.
    except a battle, developping the feeling that he might be stuck in a rut at the gym and needs to travel with Satoshi, learn what he knows, etc. The reason he's even in the group is because he's flawed. He was too quick to dismiss Satoshi, got cocky and got burned

    Iris's immaturity and lack of knowledge when she was a kid resulted in a disobedient Pokémon and cold relationship with Excadrill
    Iris failed to recognize that Doryuuzu had a problem but she was never the cause of said problem. Doryuuzu couldn't cope with being hit and not being able to take out an opponent in one hit, cause... you know... Iris is such a bad unknowledgeable trainer that she had 99 OHKO wins and won a local tournament before most trainers even have one. That's why in BW036, Doryuuzu had loads of developement, while Iris stayed the same she'd always been, had no noticeable change.

    her lack of authority resulted in a disobedient Emonga who dislikes to battle.
    Iris again did not cause Emonga to be disobedient, Emonga had that personality before. That's why when Emonga starts listening to Iris, Emonga will grow, develop, but Iris sadly won't. Because the problems that she faces never have anything to do with her.

  8. #38
    ポケモン Tsutarja's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    3,346
    Blog Entries
    564

    Follow Tsutarja on Tumblr

    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Wow, you really are looking into things when it comes to Cilan. :/

    Iris's problems
    - She failed to recognize? Same thing to me, did she even try apologizing to Excadrill before? She didn't even assume she did something wrong.
    - Oh, another one of her flaws, she isn't strict enough towards her Pokémon, she's of none authority to Emonga, she's an undeveloped trainer which is why Emonga does what she wants and doesn't listen to her.

    Another one of her flaws would be her "doing things on her own pace", but that's something different.

  9. #39
    Christmas Bubble Frog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Unova
    Posts
    4,508
    Blog Entries
    185

    Follow Bubble Frog on Tumblr

    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    except a battle, developping the feeling that he might be stuck in a rut at the gym and needs to travel with Satoshi, learn what he knows, etc. The reason he's even in the group is because he's flawed. He was too quick to dismiss Satoshi, got cocky and got burned
    How did he develop that feeling? He probably had that feeling before anyway. Besides, he was going to lose the battle anyway they just wanted to give him a set up to travel with Satoshi. He wants to get better, getting better doesn't mean "flawed".

    Heck, he has no flaws, that's obvious. Arrogance and Overconfidence? Psssshh. Those are pretty much the same thing. Barely even noticeable. Overconfidence something Satoshi has all the time. He isn't trying to "overcome" his overconfidence the way you want Iris to have certain stuff to overcome. His "overconfidence" isn't causing him to go through some emotional growth and change you want from Iris. His "overconfidence" isn't some deep running plot in the show, like Satoshi's Mijumaru's Aqua Jet or Iris's Doryuuzu's disobedience. You say Iris didn't cause Doryuuzu to go into shock, but she did. Doryuuzu said, that he couldn't continue and the battle was a lost cause and he couldn't win. But, Iris kept pressuring him and pressuring him to continue so he did, she didn't understand Doryuuzu's feelings, Doryuuzu put up a good fight against the Dragon Master's powerful Onononkus, but he found himself taking hits for the first time, and was shocked that Iris still expected him to battle despite being hurt. Ononokus soon knocked Doryuuzu out, and Doryuuzu (thinking Iris didn't care about him) closed himself off from her. Had Iris stopped the battle and realized Doryuuzu's feelings, then he wouldn't have closed himself off. As a trainer you are responsible for your Pokemon and understanding them.

    Take a look at another internal flaw, like her fear of Ice-Type Pokemon. And compare that to "Dento's Overconfidence Flaw" it's ridiculous to compare the two.

    In the Monmen episode, Dento called out Iris for calling Satoshi a kid so yeah she has been called out for her actions. In the Meguroco ep Satoshi called her out for calling him a kid.

    So what's the problem?
    Last edited by Bubble Frog; 4th June 2011 at 03:40 PM.

  10. #40
    Loving all things Eevee Eeveeanne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Gender
    Female
    Location
    Usa/ missouri
    Posts
    275
    Blog Entries
    28

    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    I agree. Ash to me has become a big dissapointment in this series. I mean, how do you tour through 4 different regions with the same pikachu and still, STILL! lose to a first timer. And against a grass type no less. I'll give it to you that pikachu lost all its electric powers but come on! He's got years under his belt. And it doesn't help that Ash acts like a little kid when it comes to battles. (as Iris so annoying points out all the time) Still ignoring type advantages and such....I love the series regardless cause I am a die-hard fan, but i just wish Ash Kechum could mature just a little....

  11. #41
    pokemon fan 132 pokemon fan 132's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Croatia.
    Posts
    2,686
    Blog Entries
    21

    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Well Cilan did showed to have some flaws like being vain,going overboard when thins go wrong with his cooking along with being overconfident in his abilities at times which is rather issue because that way character isnt able to understand his own mistakes learning from them which often leads to failure.

    However overall Cilan has really been portrayed as male version of "Mary Sue".For start he is A-class connoisseur who is already excellent at it being just one step below highest position in this profession,he is already good in battling being confident and capable,he knows how to cook right,apparently good at resolving mysteries,good at fishing with everything he does doing in rather easy manner.
    Some particular flaws havent been addressed about his character not having any internal struggle,fears or lack of self esteem or some other character aspect which he needs to retrieve as well nothing being shown to stand really on his way to go all the way to the top.

    Iris was showed to have several flaws having problems with unstable pokemon team because if not understanding her pokemon feelings not knowing enough which resulted in disobedient Excadrill and Emolga being accompanied with insecure Axew,has rather unreasonable fear from ice types lacking confidence in some areas not getting over some of her personal issues with her childish and sometimes bratty behavior which stand on her way of achieving her goal.Langley pointed out another good flaw being Iris lack of dragon types for someone who wants to become dragon master.

    Ash is pretty much happy medium.He has his flaws being reckless,immature sometimes acting before thinking which cost him couple of lost matches in past by going with "head through wall" but he also showed to grow as trainer becoming more calm and collected as person compared to his starting rookie days using more strategy and thinking in his battles learning on his mistakes improving from there.

    All in all he doesnt have most but certainly not least flaws in BW group either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    T Again, compared to kids "in universe", it's not ordinary, it's not common and that's the point. While we saw Satoshi struggle when he started, not know certain things, Iris seems to know everything about training, attacks and strategies, and I repeat had 99 OHKO vicotires where her mole didn't get hit once.
    Take in account how we dont know how good trainers which Iris battled with Excadrill were.Just because he beat them easily doesnt necessarily mean how they were very skilled being of lower class/quality.

    Also it was established how mole was already as wild Drillbur exceptionally strong .Later on thanks to lot of training vs wild pokemon and trainers he become even better with Iris 99 wins record not being drastically unbelievable.
    She had that pokemon with her for years before she met Ash and Cilan training him for a long time which in way explains why he is already so good.

    Same for Dento, we've seen leaders as young and strong as he is, he's not an exception. We've seen him make mistakes as a sommelier and as a trainer, lose battles. The whole reason he's traveling with Ash is because he feels that he doesn't know everything and that watching Ash will teach him how to be a better sommelier.
    Only problem is this issues arent being brought up much not being treated as something which stand on his way being necessary to overcome.
    This didnt affected his win against Cabernet,his competence when battling along with his fears of supernatural not being portrayed as something which stand on his way.

    He is successful despite "so called issues" which prevents him from growing in character sense,This might change later on but so far writers werent very believable with this.

    Same with Iris's "problematic" team, none of the problems on there stem from Iris, none of the problems stem from her shortcomings as a character or as a person, and therefore, there resolution cannot bring developpement to Iris, unless the writers make some difficulties come from her, show her making mistakes, treat her flaws and shortcomings as such.
    As a matter of fact they do.With Excadrill for example Iris lack of knowledge not understanding mistake she made resulted in mole stopping listening her with whole problem coming from her.Her flaw was that she pushed him too hard in battle against Drayden with her character not realizing how she expected too much from her pokemon with her chlidish behaviour being well depicted later when she was unaware how she was responsible for problem not being willing to admit it.

    Character not being willing to admit his mistakes is sign of internal issue preventing him from learning on them.

    Emolga disobedience is coming out from Iris lack of authority not knowing how to handle her pokemon meaning how she still has a lot to learn.Similar how Misty never managed to learn how to get Psyduck listening to her or with Ash and Charizard before he got hurt in "Charizard Chills"with some bond being established earning his thrust..

  12. #42
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    The Danger Room
    Posts
    7,083
    Blog Entries
    43

    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    I guess we'll see. As I said before, right now, all three are flawed, but Iris's flaws are not treated as such. None of her problems stem from her (least of all Emonga) and it feels like she's this already competent trainer full of knowledge and skills that's just waiting for her problematic team to catch up with her rather than working on herself, having internal issues and shortcomings that she has to overcome, or mistakes that she needs to rectify.

    With Cilan, while his flaws aren't brought up often, when they are, they are treated as such, his overconfidence cost him his battle against Ash and the reason he's traveling with Ash is that his overconfidence stood in the way of him getting better. He taught he knew everything, but Ash proved him wrong and Dento wanted to learn more from Ash.

  13. #43
    Registered User Afrojisiac-19's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Cerulean City, Kanto
    Posts
    569

    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Despite Dento's "supposed" overconfidence and arrogance, they don't seem to really hinder his development...and they don't seem to be anything that stands in his way either...He seems to have everything together and in order, and he's still a very competent trainer, no serious problems with his skills or abilities, or his pokemon...He really doesn't have anything to prove and nothing to overcome, nothing heavy working against him...It's painfully obvious that he's the least flawed...It seems like the writers are making him seem flawless to add to his charm...That can only work for so long...

  14. #44
    Christmas Bubble Frog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Unova
    Posts
    4,508
    Blog Entries
    185

    Follow Bubble Frog on Tumblr

    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    I guess we'll see. As I said before, right now, all three are flawed, but Iris's flaws are not treated as such. None of her problems stem from her (least of all Emonga) and it feels like she's this already competent trainer full of knowledge and skills that's just waiting for her problematic team to catch up with her rather than working on herself, having internal issues and shortcomings that she has to overcome, or mistakes that she needs to rectify.

    With Cilan, while his flaws aren't brought up often, when they are, they are treated as such, his overconfidence cost him his battle against Ash and the reason he's traveling with Ash is that his overconfidence stood in the way of him getting better. He taught he knew everything, but Ash proved him wrong and Dento wanted to learn more from Ash.
    This debate isn't going anywhere like all other discussions about Iris.

    What problem are you looking for that "stems from the trainer"? When has Dento at all in Best Wishes! shown a problem that "stems from himself"? What serious problems have stemed from Dento? One's that affected him emotional, the way Doryuuzu has Iris? What problem? "I act overconfident, you defeat me, I travel with you because I'm impressed" is nothing but, a plot set up. You want proof? I'll show you proof. They did the same thing with Takeshi, it really isn't anything special, that problem isn't causing him to "develop, change, or grow" the way your always saying you want to see out of Iris. She learned her lesson after being defeated by Rangurei to understand her Pokemon's feelings more and to be more careful. What type of "Development" has Dento gone through? He understands people and Pokemon because he's a Sommelier, Battles very well, destroyed his rival Cabernet with ease, Yanappu and Ishizumai are strong, His supposed "arrogance" against his battle with Cabernet didn't matter, because he won anyway, he's a near perfect Sommelier, a great fishermen, a great detective, clean, a Pretty boy, he sparkles when he's happy, his Pokemon are obedient, there's nothing standing in his way, Rangurei is standing in Iris's way, his only obstacle Cabernet got in his way and was bulldozed away easily. There has been almost absolutely no struggle for him what-so-ever and no his battle against Hitomoshi-Tachi didn't count as a "struggle" since he was battling in a group with Musashi, Satoshi, and Kojirou. Dento has absolutely 0 true flaws. Dento didn't go through some whole "turning over a new leaf thing" with Satoshi after losing he was impressed with Satoshi and decided to go on a journey with him, but that doesn't matter because that's basic story set up for him to travel with Satoshi and Iris throughout Isshu.

    Edit:Lol, I never thought I could get so serious over a cartoon (^_^') at this point, I really think I should let it go.
    Last edited by Bubble Frog; 4th June 2011 at 05:20 PM.

  15. #45
    MEGA F'ING AMPHAROS!!! Ampharos King's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Gender
    Male
    Location
    Olivine Lighthouse
    Posts
    4,746
    Blog Entries
    9

    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Feel free to read my personal evaluation and analysis regarding all three human protagonists of the BW anime.

    Dent/Cilan


    Iris


    Satoshi/Ash


    Final Conclusion

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •