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  1. #16
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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    It irritated me a bit seeing everyone complain about Iris being flawless.

    Everyone is so quick to complain about Iris being "flawless" and calling her a Mary Sue and she sucks cause she's got a powerful Pokemon like Doryuuzu. But, what about Dento? He's got strong Pokemon already, He destroyed his rival, Cabernet with ease, He's a near perfect Sommelier, His goal of being a Sommelier is pretty much not being explored at all, He's a detective, he's a good battler, a Fishermen, he never fails, he sparkles out of joy. He's the Mary-Sue of the cast if anyone is, but that doesn't matter does it? Because, he's looked upon as awesome and a great character regardless.

    People are ok with Dento being flawless and entertaining, but everyone's quick to call Iris a Mary-Sue.

  2. #17
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by AshK View Post
    Quick quesiton: what is a Mary Sue?
    This can help you shed some light on the phenomenon, but overall a Mary Sue isn't a combinations of traits (i.e. flawlessness, being super powerful, etc.) but more how those traits are treated by the author and the characters in the story, how many there are, if they're justified within the story, etc. When they accumulate so much that they stop the story dead in its tracks, and prohibit developement, then you can say you have a Mary Sue became the process towards saying if a character is or isn't a Mary Sue needs to be holistic.

    Now, from what we have seen so far, not one of the three main cast members can be considered Mary Sue yet, though if the writers continue to treat Iris the way they have been so far, she has the possiblity of becoming a Canon sue.

    First of all, the lack of flaws. Now, both Iris and Dento have been shown to have flaws, but once again, how are those flaws treated by the writers? How do they relate to the story? In Dento's case, his flaw is arrogance, overconfidence and how he's very quick to judge other people. Now, on the two occasions that happened, he was either "punished" for it (losing to Ash in the gym battle) or was called out on it (Both Satoshi and Iris reacted negatively when Dento bet with Cabernet that should he lose, Ash would release all his pokémon). In short, they were treated as flaws. Whereas in Iris's case, she's shown to be very hypocritical and hypercritical, yet, it's not treated as a flaw, not shown to affect anybody's opinion of her and eveyone still wants to be her friend. Same for Doryuuzu, in her battle against Shaga, she wasn't able to read Doryuuzu's emotion correctly, yet Shaga and the village elder, far from being critical of Iris, they looked intrigued and impressed. The initial problem with Doryuuzu was also treated as something internal to Doryuuzu, not something brought on by a mistake that Iris made. So, Iris wasn't shown to be doing anything wrong in that situation, beared no resposibility in the problem, effectively stunting her developpement.

    Same thing for being super powerful. On its own, it's a trait, nothing more, neither good nor bad. It all depends on how it's being treated in the story by the writers, whether or not it's justified within the universe. Dento beating Cabernet is justified in that he's studied longer than she has to be a sommelier, he's passed more exams (that are required to achieve ranks), he's been a trainer longer, etc. There's nothing that proves he's a sensational trainer, having lost to Ash and a wild Pendra, and seen struggling against the wild hitomoshi. Whereas with Iris, before most trainer even begin training pokémon, she had 99 OHKO wins against trainer who had been more experienced than her, had been training for a longer time, she was shown to beat evolved pokémon with her unevolved Mogurew. Cilan's abilities are shown to be within the range of the universe, ordinary if you will, while Iris's were shown to be extraordinary, uncommon, something that made her super special...

    tl;dr any Mary Sue trait is just that, a character trait. It's how that trait is being treated in relation to other traits, how justified it is by elements of the story and whether or not they stop the story dead in its tracks. To answer the post, I'd say Ash is the most flawed, while Iris is the least flawed, not because the flaws aren't there, but because they aren't treated as such by the writers and aren't an hindrance, an obstacle for her.
    Last edited by Hellion; 4th June 2011 at 01:41 PM.

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    Easy listening Masurao's Avatar
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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Obviously Ash is the most flawed, and Dento is the least flawed IMO. I also think calling Iris "super powerful" is a bit of an exaggeration. I don't see her as any better than Ash or Dento.

    However, I have more problems with the way her Excadrill was protrayed rather than anything else. It hasn't trained any longer than any other notable trainer on this show. Yet, it was able to coast along getting 99 OHKO's without any struggle seen. It doesn't make me feel attached to the character at all. Even in the recent episode, when it came out of it's Pokeball it was overdone. We know it's strong, don't need to rub it in our faces.

    Pretty much, Excadrill is portrayed as being far to powerful, for this early in the series. It's overpoweredness makes it a unrelatable Pokemon IMO even with it's backstory.
    Last edited by Masurao; 3rd June 2011 at 05:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    [First of all, the lack of flaws. Now, both Iris and Dento have been shown to have flaws, but once again, how are those flaws treated by the writers? How do they relate to the story? In Dento's case, his flaw is arrogance, overconfidence and how he's very quick to judge other people. Now, on the two occasions that happened, he was either "punished" for it (losing to Ash in the gym battle) or was called out on it (Both Satoshi and Iris reacted negatively when Dento bet with Cabernet that should he lose, Ash would release all his pokémon). In short, they were treated as flaws. Whereas in Iris's case, she's shown to be very hypocritical and hypercritical, yet, it's not treated as a flaw, not shown to affect anybody's opinion of her and eveyone still wants to be her friend. Same for Doryuuzu, in her battle against Shaga, she wasn't able to read Doryuuzu's emotion correctly, yet Shaga and the village elder, far from being critical of Iris, they looked intrigued and impressed. The initial problem with Doryuuzu was also treated as something internal to Doryuuzu, not something brought on by a mistake that Iris made. So, Iris wasn't shown to be doing anything wrong in that situation, beared no resposibility in the problem, effectively stunting her developpement.
    Her development for that episode is that she apologized to Doryuuzu and learned and will try to read her Pokemon's emotions more. Her mistake was that she didn't listen to her Pokemon who said that he couldn't win, and she still pressured him to continue which caused Doryuuzu to go in shock. Obaba and the Dragon Master were impressed because of Iris's training of Doryuuzu to be so strong, and probably thought she had potential. Iris's catchphrase affected Satoshi in episode 3 were he got angry and called her a kid too. Same for Rangurei who destroyed Kibago, Iris showed some sadness and regret for using Kibago against Tsunbear. If your counting quick to judge others for Dento, I guess you count that for Iris too. Where has Dento shown overconfidence in the same aspect that it was different from Iris's overconfidence against Rangurei? Dento even pointed out Iris being a bit too pushy of Doryuuzu, the same way Satoshi and Iris scolded him. So I really don't see your point.

    Dento beating Cabernet is justified in that he's studied longer than she has to be a sommelier, he's passed more exams (that are required to achieve ranks), he's been a trainer longer, etc. There's nothing that proves he's a sensational trainer, having lost to Ash and a wild Pendra, and seen struggling against the wild hitomoshi. Whereas with Iris, before most trainer even begin training pokémon, she had 99 OHKO wins against trainer who had been more experienced than her, had been training for a longer time, she was shown to beat evolved pokémon with her unevolved Mogurew. Cilan's abilities are shown to be within the range of the universe, ordinary if you will, while Iris's were shown to be extraordinary, uncommon, something that made her super special...
    As far as we're concerned Iris has been training Doryuuzu harder and longer then Satoshi has Pikachu. There's nothing that proves Iris is invincible having lost to Rangurei's Tsunbear, Dragon Master's Ononokus, Still struggling against Rangurei in the rematch, and her Kibago being weak and Emonga disobeying. There's no proof that Iris beat 99 trainers in a row, as you can see she took out more Wild Pokemon then trainers. There's no proof that every trainer she beat was more experienced or less experienced. But, it still doesn't matter anyway, because Doryuuzu has been proven to not be an invincible God Pokemon, and those 99 opponents were just nothing but disposable plot devices to move the story. Don't really see your evolved point theory. I beat Pokemon all the time in the games with unevolved Pokemon. Mijumaru and Pokabu beat Aloe's Pokemon who were both evolved. Pikachu beat Hahakomori who was evolved. Ishizumai beat Futachimaru was evolved. About that theory, again, what makes you think her Kibago is stronger then every other Kibago again? Her Doryuuzu was brought down twice in a battle against Tsunbear. Your comparing Iris beating a bunch of isolated no neck wild Pokemon and trainers to things like she's a Queen.

    Dento has rarely shown any true flaws. And no, I'm not counting the whole, "Battle against Satoshi at the Sanyou Gym" because that was barely anything to mention. Because the same thing was going to happen to Iris anyway if not for Dento's intervening.

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    ◓Gypsy Vanner Horse Kyuuketsuki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    As trainers, Iris seems to be the most flawed. And wasn't there another character who beat 100 trainers?

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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    There's no indication that Iris trained Drilburr any longer than Ash, or Paul have trained their Pokemon. There was no time frame given to justify it's power, therefore making it seem overpowered. Regardless, if it was more wild Pokemon than Trainers the point still stands.

    Though I am curious...was it actually 99 trainers in a row, or where the still screen victories against wild Pokemon?
    Last edited by Masurao; 3rd June 2011 at 05:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Masurao View Post
    There's no indication that Iris trained Drilburr any longer than Ash, or Paul have trained their Pokemon. There was no time frame given to justify it's power, therefore making it seem overpowered. Regardless, if it was more wild Pokemon than Trainers the point still stands.

    Though I am curious...was it actually 99 trainers in a row, or where the still screen victories against wild Pokemon?
    If Iris and Satoshi are the same age now, and Iris was younger back then and Satoshi became a trainer later, yeah there's a chance Iris trained longer then Satoshi did.

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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    I'd say it was a toss up between Ash and Iris. They're both shown to be amateurish and in need of more growth (although Ash has been at this for ten years and it's inexcusable in his case)

    Does Cilan have any floors? He's already pretty much mastered the Sommelier thing. There's not much else for him to learn.
    I think his whole background and gimmick is kind of a weak premise, but he's funny and likable so I'm not bothered that he probably wont
    do or achieve anything of notability.
    I feel like his status and importance to the group dynamic, is directly mirroring Brock's.
    I think Iris's character will be explored more, so naturally they've begun her character as a bit of a childish rookie.

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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Didn't Dento call out Iris on her immaturity for calling Ash a kid, when he knew for a fact that she herself was a child as well? I believe that was in the Cotonee episode. Also, Dento called Iris out yet AGAIN while she was eating an apple and talking about love at the same time, implying that she doesn't have manners that a "real maiden" kind of girl should have. Also, in the episode with the Nacrene Museum, Dento called Iris' beliefs in the Evil Spirits nothing but superstituous beliefs that lacked substance and or substantial evidence.

    SO, it's not like Iris isn't being called out at all for nothing. People need to stop acting like she's getting a free pass to mess up.

    If anything, they're making it seem like Dento needs to be the problem solver all the time, picking away at the flaws of his companions. It would be more interesting if one of the others had something to pick on for Dento, but unfortunately he doesn't have anything to pick at.

  10. #25
    Easy listening Masurao's Avatar
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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Afrojisiac-19 View Post
    Didn't Dento call out Iris on her immaturity for calling Ash a kid, when he knew for a fact that she herself was a child as well? I believe that was in the Cotonee episode. Also, Dento called Iris out yet AGAIN while she was eating an apple and talking about love at the same time, implying that she doesn't have manners that a "real maiden" kind of girl should have. Also, in the episode with the Nacrene Museum, Dento called Iris' beliefs in the Evil Spirits nothing but supersitious beliefs that lacked substance and or substantial evidence.
    The former two were pretty much throwaway comments, and the latter was played for laughs...not really being a flaw.

    At any rate, I would put Iris towards the middle of the flaw scale, however I think it would better for her development if Excadrill was released. It forced her not to rley on such a powerful Pokemon, and bond/develop her others...thereby improving herself. Kinda the same thing as Charizard, in terms of how Ash relied on it alot to get him out of a jam when it first started obeying.
    Last edited by Masurao; 3rd June 2011 at 06:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Masurao View Post
    The former two were pretty much throwaway comments, and the latter was played for laughs...not really being a flaw.

    At any rate, I would put Iris towards the middle of the flaw scale, however I think it would better for her development if Excadrill was released. It forced her not to rley on such a powerful Pokemon, and bond/develop her others...thereby improving herself. Kinda the same thing as Charizard, in terms of how Ash relied on it alot to get him out of a jam when it started obeying.
    Hmm, I doubt releasing Excadrill will benefit her development. She only recently discovered why Excadrill wasn't listening to her. Now Iris needs to use that knowledge to battle more effectively with him. She's not fully there yet. Iris' progress with Excadrill will probably help her get things in order with Emolga and help out Axew as well.

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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grave-E View Post
    It's gotta be Dent who has the most flaws. There's just too many to count.

    - Green hair. Nobody likes a guy who can't abide by the rules.

    - Green hair that looks like grass. In a world where you can't take 2 steps without stepping into a Deerling, that ain't good.

    - He's a slob. Guy can't even change out of his work clothes. After originally working in presumably hot kitchen no less. Eurgh!

    - He's obsessed with food. And it‘s gone straight to his hips.

    - Seems to have anger management issues and an irrational hatred of leaves.

    - He’s an attention seeker. All the sparkles and flamboyant poses are hard to ignore, and thus evidence of his underlying insecurities.

    - Has a poor grasp of the concept of time. ‘It’s detective time’? Um, no Dent. It was 11:23 am.

    - His name is 'Dent'. So presumably, he has Dental Flaws.
    DINGDINGDING! I think we have a winner here :D

    But I'm really kinda not liking the use of the term "Mary-Sue" here for a variety of reasons. Like Hellion pointed out, even "Mary-Sues" have flaws...they're just not called out for it or really show show any negative outcomes from them. And ultimately, it's just a trait, neither bad nor good.

    I think that Ash has the most visible flaws, like his impetuousness, stubbornness, lack of common sense, lack of sexuality, over-excitedness and naivete. But, you know, these "flaws" are seen as "charms" for some people, and I'm sure that the same can be said for other characters.

    As for least amount of flaws...Iris. I mean, look at that list Grave-E presented us. Iris just can't compare to that amount of imperfectness XD

    "seasons change, people change"

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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    All I'm saying is people don't care whether Dento has any flaws because he sparkles and says what time it is every episode, but people are quick to complain over Iris.

    It's funny that some people want characters to have issues and problems they need to overcome so they can sympathize with them and root for them. Iris is immature and has problems being a good trainer to her Pokémon, most specifically Emonga, Doryuuzu, and Kibago. In Dento's case, there are none, and yet no one even mentions that due the fact he's so freakin' fabulous.

    I mean, WTF?

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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    This can help you shed some light on the phenomenon, but overall a Mary Sue isn't a combinations of traits (i.e. flawlessness, being super powerful, etc.) but more how those traits are treated by the author and the characters in the story, how many there are, if they're justified within the story, etc. When they accumulate so much that they stop the story dead in its tracks, and prohibit developement, then you can say you have a Mary Sue became the process towards saying if a character is or isn't a Mary Sue needs to be holistic.

    Now, from what we have seen so far, not one of the three main cast members can be considered Mary Sue yet, though if the writers continue to treat Iris the way they have been so far, she has the possiblity of becoming a Canon sue.

    First of all, the lack of flaws. Now, both Iris and Dento have been shown to have flaws, but once again, how are those flaws treated by the writers? How do they relate to the story? In Dento's case, his flaw is arrogance, overconfidence and how he's very quick to judge other people. Now, on the two occasions that happened, he was either "punished" for it (losing to Ash in the gym battle) or was called out on it (Both Satoshi and Iris reacted negatively when Dento bet with Cabernet that should he lose, Ash would release all his pokémon). In short, they were treated as flaws. Whereas in Iris's case, she's shown to be very hypocritical and hypercritical, yet, it's not treated as a flaw, not shown to affect anybody's opinion of her and eveyone still wants to be her friend. Same for Doryuuzu, in her battle against Shaga, she wasn't able to read Doryuuzu's emotion correctly, yet Shaga and the village elder, far from being critical of Iris, they looked intrigued and impressed. The initial problem with Doryuuzu was also treated as something internal to Doryuuzu, not something brought on by a mistake that Iris made. So, Iris wasn't shown to be doing anything wrong in that situation, beared no resposibility in the problem, effectively stunting her developpement.

    Same thing for being super powerful. On its own, it's a trait, nothing more, neither good nor bad. It all depends on how it's being treated in the story by the writers, whether or not it's justified within the universe. Dento beating Cabernet is justified in that he's studied longer than she has to be a sommelier, he's passed more exams (that are required to achieve ranks), he's been a trainer longer, etc. There's nothing that proves he's a sensational trainer, having lost to Ash and a wild Pendra, and seen struggling against the wild hitomoshi. Whereas with Iris, before most trainer even begin training pokémon, she had 99 OHKO wins against trainer who had been more experienced than her, had been training for a longer time, she was shown to beat evolved pokémon with her unevolved Mogurew. Cilan's abilities are shown to be within the range of the universe, ordinary if you will, while Iris's were shown to be extraordinary, uncommon, something that made her super special...

    tl;dr any Mary Sue trait is just that, a character trait. It's how that trait is being treated in relation to other traits, how justified it is by elements of the story and whether or not they stop the story dead in its tracks. To answer the post, I'd say Ash is the most flawed, while Iris is the least flawed, not because the flaws aren't there, but because they aren't treated as such by the writers and aren't an hindrance, an obstacle for her.
    Thank you for the explanation it really helped! And I do wish the writers treat some of the things Iris does as flaws and have Ash or Cilan tell her off for a change... she's not perfect. Treating ash like a kid where she acts like one at times as well. But I do admit the whole thing of her beating all of those trainers is kinda funny, must mean that pokemon is pretty powerful

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    Registered User Afrojisiac-19's Avatar
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    Default Re: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

    So, Iris is a Mary Sue just because people don't always call her out for calling people a kid when she's one herself?
    Iris is a Mary Sue because Drayded didn't chastise her for making a bad call with her Excadrill in their battle?

    Didn't Ash say Iris not wanting to lose a battle and having Dento go easy on her wouldn't help Axew gain experience? Isn't that some kind of "calling out"?
    And in the cotonee episode, Dento specifially called out Iris for calling Ash a kid, when he said "But Iris, you're a kid yourself!"

    You people really need to stop acting like no one else on the show is noticing Iris' problems, and that no one is calling her out on them, because they are. The fact of the matter is that, Iris is hardly being treated in the spirit of a "Mary Sue", and that's just how it is.

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