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  1. #16
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are handling Axew, and Scraggy's growth properly?

    Comparatively weak, not outright weak - Scraggy is probably the best example of development on Ash's team in terms of being reasonable increments in power.

    The problem I'm pointing to is that Scraggy and Axew started out at the same level, Axew had Scratch and Scraggy had Headbutt - and they both did about the same damage to eachother. They then did the majority of their training together, Axew all of a sudden got one of the most powerful Dragon type moves in Dragon Rage and then Axew was suddenly way ahead in power. Then before Scraggy gets a chance to catch up, Axew gets Outrage as well. After finally getting Hi-Jump Kick to even vaguely have a poweful attack, just as Scraggy starts to build up strength and gets Focus Blast - all of a sudden Axew gets Giga Impact to just knock back any progress Scraggy might have been making in getting close in strength again.

    Iris doesn't put in any more training than Ash - yet Axew's results are far superior. Axew was 'recently hatched' when given to Iris and was certainly at the same power level as Scraggy in their first battle, so I don't buy being younger as an excuse for it. Scraggy's weakness is that he gets trained just as much, by someone just as skilled if not moreso as a trainer, but the results are no where near equal - which makes Scraggy look weak in comparison to Axew.

    Scraggy's storyline is good - I certainly don't want Scraggy to have instead mastered Focus Blast instantly or got another massively powerful move to bring it up to par - I just want Axew to have developed at a similar rate and not keep constantly being a massive leap ahead of a Pokemon it started out as being on the same level of for no good reason.
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are handling Axew, and Scraggy's growth properly?

    if anything, they are complete opposites, reflecting hard work vs. being spoiled.

    Scraggy has been striving to become stronger since it's birth, representing the underdog we all root for and want to improve and become the best. we see him train, and we know one day that this dood will be great.and I am certainly anticipating the day he becomes Scrafty, because his growth is believable( no wonder Scrafty is my favorite Gen 5 Poke.)

    Axew is the invese. rarely does anything, yet gets all the spoils. it's never really trained for battle hardly at all, yet keeps getting immense power for free.in fact, pretty much allhis training time it should have is wasted on Excadrill...you know,instead of working on making him the Hax-R-Us it should be by now.
    Last edited by fawfulmark2; 23rd August 2012 at 06:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are handling Axew, and Scraggy's growth properly?

    I think they're being handled well enough.

    To ME it seems that the writers want Axew to be shown as having the potential to be powerful but not like Piplup (who has strong attacks, great mobility and is a good battler ... which is why it doesn't seem to NEED to evolve). That's why even though he has some of the most powerful moves a Hax can learn and great endurance it's still not a super great battler. If they were to actually MAKE him a great/ powerhouse battler at this stage then he would go into Piplup or Pikachu mode (as in, what use is there in evolving when you don't have a much of a problem slapping down fully grown Pokemon?). That's why I think he doesn't get many battles right now, I think he's gonna fully evolve at the end of BW and if that's to happen then he just can't look like one of those Pokemon that don't need to evolve.

    Scraggy doesn't have the problems Axew has, he only evolves once and isn't a out-side Pokemon. It can be shown to grow as a battler and take on strong Pokemon because they want to show him keeping up with Axew's power. They're clearly linked as rivals/ bros, they are just shown improving in different ways. In a way I think that they're development is being handled counter to each other.

    Outside of their battles together Axew is shown to train more with other Pokemon (Pansage/ Excadrill and Garchomp) where as Scraggy is shown to battle more in actual battles. They're even when they battle each other (shown by the fact that they always tie) but right now Scraggy is better at battling and Axew has more power which makes them pretty level.

    Once they evolve (I'm sure it will be in a match against each other. Double evolution!) I feel like Scrafty will start pumping up it's power by learning stronger moves (Like head smash/ zen headbutt/ some kind of punch/ Dark Pulse or any number of moves that are stronger than what he has now) and Fraxure will start pumping up it's battle skills by getting something to replace Scratch (Dragon claw or Dual Chop would be welcome) and partaking in more battles. To show off it's new skills.

    As for where they go after that, I could very well see Fraxure evolving in a battle with the Bear. The Dragon Basher wont be dealt with until Iris beats her with a Dragon Type ... and Dragonite is clearly too much for her powerhouse bear so it makes no sense to have a rematch when Dragonite obeys Iris. Fraxure could prove how much he and Iris have grown by them having a full 3 on 3 battle were he finally evolves into a Hax at the end while battling her strongest Pokemon.
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are handling Axew, and Scraggy's growth properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe View Post
    I think they're being handled well enough.

    To ME it seems that the writers want Axew to be shown as having the potential to be powerful but not like Piplup (who has strong attacks, great mobility and is a good battler ... which is why it doesn't seem to NEED to evolve). That's why even though he has some of the most powerful moves a Hax can learn and great endurance it's still not a super great battler. If they were to actually MAKE him a great/ powerhouse battler at this stage then he would go into Piplup or Pikachu mode (as in, what use is there in evolving when you don't have a much of a problem slapping down fully grown Pokemon?). That's why I think he doesn't get many battles right now, I think he's gonna fully evolve at the end of BW and if that's to happen then he just can't look like one of those Pokemon that don't need to evolve.
    I think that they would need to make Axew into a good battler before giving it overpowered moves and evolving it in order to make it look believable. Plus, unlike with Piplup, Axew wants to evolve, so I don't think showing it as a capable battler would have prevented them from evolving. If anything, it's the fact that it's a secondary mascot of BW that prevents Axew from evolving more than anything else. At this rate, I can't see Axew evolving at all and I doubt that they'll make it into a Haxorus by the end of the series. It's possible, but looks really unlikely to me at this point, especially when she already has a fully evolved Dragon type on her team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    Scraggy doesn't have the problems Axew has, he only evolves once and isn't a out-side Pokemon. It can be shown to grow as a battler and take on strong Pokemon because they want to show him keeping up with Axew's power. They're clearly linked as rivals/ bros, they are just shown improving in different ways. In a way I think that they're development is being handled counter to each other.

    Outside of their battles together Axew is shown to train more with other Pokemon (Pansage/ Excadrill and Garchomp) where as Scraggy is shown to battle more in actual battles. They're even when they battle each other (shown by the fact that they always tie) but right now Scraggy is better at battling and Axew has more power which makes them pretty level.
    Even though Axew keeps getting overpowered moves and is technically older than Scraggy is, I think that Scraggy is the stronger of the two. It has more training, which may not say that much, and it actually has defeated other Pokemon in battle. Axew, as far as I know, hasn't really done that yet, so I don't think that Scraggy needs to keep up with Axew's power. I don't think that they're on an equal level at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    Once they evolve (I'm sure it will be in a match against each other. Double evolution!) I feel like Scrafty will start pumping up it's power by learning stronger moves (Like head smash/ zen headbutt/ some kind of punch/ Dark Pulse or any number of moves that are stronger than what he has now) and Fraxure will start pumping up it's battle skills by getting something to replace Scratch (Dragon claw or Dual Chop would be welcome) and partaking in more battles. To show off it's new skills.

    As for where they go after that, I could very well see Fraxure evolving in a battle with the Bear. The Dragon Basher wont be dealt with until Iris beats her with a Dragon Type ... and Dragonite is clearly too much for her powerhouse bear so it makes no sense to have a rematch when Dragonite obeys Iris. Fraxure could prove how much he and Iris have grown by them having a full 3 on 3 battle were he finally evolves into a Hax at the end while battling her strongest Pokemon.
    I still can't really see Axew evolving, but the idea of Axew and Scraggy evolving at the same time does sound kind of cool. I think that there's a much better chance that Scraggy will be the only one to evolve since it does battle, while Axew just stays on the sidelines and looks cute. It also helps that Scraggy isn't a mascot Pokemon like Axew is. I also think it's far too late to have Axew's evolution reflect any growth or accomplishments on Axew and Iris' parts, especially when neither one of them have really grown that much, if at all, during the course of the series.
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are handling Axew, and Scraggy's growth properly?

    Scraggy's doing great so far! It's mastering Focus Blast, already has a great attack, Hi Jump Kick. Axew on the other hand is pretty spoiled. If it can't master Dragon Rage, the arguably most basic dragon attack, then how does it get handed Outrage and Giga Impact like that?
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are handling Axew, and Scraggy's growth properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post

    I think that they would need to make Axew into a good battler before giving it overpowered moves and evolving it in order to make it look believable. Plus, unlike with Piplup, Axew wants to evolve, so I don't think showing it as a capable battler would have prevented them from evolving. If anything, it's the fact that it's a secondary mascot of BW that prevents Axew from evolving more than anything else. At this rate, I can't see Axew evolving at all and I doubt that they'll make it into a Haxorus by the end of the series. It's possible, but looks really unlikely to me at this point, especially when she already has a fully evolved Dragon type on her team.
    I think Axew IS a good battler ... but not "great" or "very good".
    And it's not really that they "can't show him being a capable battler because it would prevent his evolution" and more like "Hey, lets keep him at a certain kinda babyish stage to contrast things once he evolves". Think of it this way ... Piplup doesn't feel young to me. Snivy doesn't feel young to me. Non-Charmander OS Starters don't feel young to me. Tepig and Torchic and pretty much every other main cast 3 stage Pokemon that fully evolves felt youthful to me, as if they could gain something from evolving and becoming more mature.

    And no, I don't think it's being held back by some title as "BW mascot". The animators are pretty open about why they do and do not do things. They're reason for having Puplup not evolve was because it's other stages were ugly and did not fit for Dawn's contest presentation. That's why it had a whole episode focused on showing it's nonsensical reason for not wanting to evolve. What did they say about Axew? Pretty much "Don't expect it to happen soon, we like to tuck it away in Iris's hair to cut down on animation and it would be hard to explain why it's suddenly in a ball".

    And who says Iris can't have 2 fully evolved Dragons before she either leaves the show or leaves some of her Pokemon to go to a new region with Ash?


    Even though Axew keeps getting overpowered moves and is technically older than Scraggy is, I think that Scraggy is the stronger of the two. It has more training, which may not say that much, and it actually has defeated other Pokemon in battle. Axew, as far as I know, hasn't really done that yet, so I don't think that Scraggy needs to keep up with Axew's power. I don't think that they're on an equal level at this point.
    ... Axew HAS beaten other Pokemon ya know. o.O
    And given how each time they face off it ends in a tie (outside of that one time Axew did beat him after learning DR) ... yeah, they're on even footing. What else would that imply?
    Until one outright beats the other they're even.


    I still can't really see Axew evolving, but the idea of Axew and Scraggy evolving at the same time does sound kind of cool. I think that there's a much better chance that Scraggy will be the only one to evolve since it does battle, while Axew just stays on the sidelines and looks cute. It also helps that Scraggy isn't a mascot Pokemon like Axew is. I also think it's far too late to have Axew's evolution reflect any growth or accomplishments on Axew and Iris' parts, especially when neither one of them have really grown that much, if at all, during the course of the series.
    Axew actual TRAINS ya know. And the chances of their revelry/ relationship ending in Scraggy evolving and Axew staying a baby is pretty unlikely to say the least. You don't connect 2 characters like this only to end it with something like that. They have constantly been shown to be great partners for the very reason that they keep growing together, staying within the other's rang. If Scraggy is the only one who evolves then that pretty much ends that factor.

    And really, you're flat out wrong about Iris and Axew not showing growth in the series by now. This isn't a place to talk about how wrong you are about Iris ... but for Axew all you have to do is remember how awkward and stiff and goofy he was when battling in the beginning to see just how far he's has come.
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are handling Axew, and Scraggy's growth properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe View Post
    I think Axew IS a good battler ... but not "great" or "very good".
    I personally disagree. Axew hasn't shown any sign of being a good battler and it doesn't help that most of the victories it does have aren't that believable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    And it's not really that they "can't show him being a capable battler because it would prevent his evolution" and more like "Hey, lets keep him at a certain kinda babyish stage to contrast things once he evolves". Think of it this way ... Piplup doesn't feel young to me. Snivy doesn't feel young to me. Non-Charmander OS Starters don't feel young to me. Tepig and Torchic and pretty much every other main cast 3 stage Pokemon that fully evolves felt youthful to me, as if they could gain something from evolving and becoming more mature.

    And no, I don't think it's being held back by some title as "BW mascot". The animators are pretty open about why they do and do not do things. They're reason for having Puplup not evolve was because it's other stages were ugly and did not fit for Dawn's contest presentation. That's why it had a whole episode focused on showing it's nonsensical reason for not wanting to evolve. What did they say about Axew? Pretty much "Don't expect it to happen soon, we like to tuck it away in Iris's hair to cut down on animation and it would be hard to explain why it's suddenly in a ball".
    I don't think that's what they're going for with keeping Axew in a babyish stage at this point. Axew barely does anything to make that work. While they did say that was the reason behind Piplup not evolving, the fact that it was a secondary mascot played a role in that decision as well. Personally, I don't think that the reason behind Piplup's choice to not evolve was nonsensical, but that's for another topic. I don't remember any comment from the animators explaining why Axew hasn't evolved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    And who says Iris can't have 2 fully evolved Dragons before she either leaves the show or leaves some of her Pokemon to go to a new region with Ash?
    Two fully evolved Dragons would be overkill in my opinion, even though having one at this point feels like that too. I'm pretty sure that there's no chance that Iris is going to go to a new region with Ash, but that belongs in the Iris thread rather than this one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    ... Axew HAS beaten other Pokemon ya know. o.O
    Not that many and not in a believable manner if I recall correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    And given how each time they face off it ends in a tie (outside of that one time Axew did beat him after learning DR) ... yeah, they're on even footing. What else would that imply?
    Until one outright beats the other they're even.
    Considering that those matches were mainly used for comedy relief, rather than a genuine sign of their progression, and only lasted for a couple of minutes, that doesn't really work for me. Especially when Axew did already technically beat it after learning Dragon Rage, Scraggy actually had some believable victories in the second Club Battle tournament and I don't think that they've had those practice battle for a long time. I don't see them on an equal level at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    Axew actual TRAINS ya know. And the chances of their revelry/ relationship ending in Scraggy evolving and Axew staying a baby is pretty unlikely to say the least. You don't connect 2 characters like this only to end it with something like that. They have constantly been shown to be great partners for the very reason that they keep growing together, staying within the other's rang. If Scraggy is the only one who evolves then that pretty much ends that factor.
    Aside from Iris calling out for it to use Dragon Rage at the beginning of the series and those practice matches with Scraggy, there isn't a lot of training for Axew. It honestly spends far more time in Iris' hair than battling or training. Scraggy and Axew do have a nice sibling-like relationship going on, but I could see Scraggy being the only evolved one at the end of the series. It helps that I do believe that Scraggy is beyond Axew's rang, despite the efforts to make Axew look overpowered with its moves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    And really, you're flat out wrong about Iris and Axew not showing growth in the series by now. This isn't a place to talk about how wrong you are about Iris ... but for Axew all you have to do is remember how awkward and stiff and goofy he was when battling in the beginning to see just how far he's has come.
    Please calm down. You're more than welcome to disagree with me, as everyone is, but there's no reason to be that rude to me. It's disrespectful and there are more polite ways to say that you disagree with me. Please don't do that again. Axew's progression has been anything but believable for me. I agree that it got less stiff with battling after learning Dragon Rage, but that doesn't make me think it has come a long way since the start of the series. If it did, then Axew would have had more believable progression and far more believable victories. While Scraggy's progression hasn't been perfect either, as I do have a few issues with it as well, I believe that it has been handled better than Axew, even though I don't think that says that much in the grand scheme of things.
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are handling Axew, and Scraggy's growth properly?

    Out of the 2, Scraggy has been handled a lot better in my opinion.

    We saw both baby pokemon start off as relatively weak, which has been the most believable out of all baby pokemon to date. IIRC both Phanpy and Dawns Cydaquil were reasonably competent as soon as they hatched, definitely a lot more than Axew and Scraggy were. Both had weak attacks and were pathetic yet hilarious in battle, and Axew hadn't mastered dragon rage. All was good.

    Then things start to get a bit iffy where Axew is concerned. The way he mastered Dragon rage was a bit off. He learnt it by watching Iris teach another dragon type a different move and then copying what she was telling the Druddigon. I don't really get why Iris didn't just teach Axew to use dragon rage that way, and it never really felt like she was making any effort to master it, more just calling out the attack and hoping the problem would just go away. After that Axew was looking a bit stronger, along with scraggy, which was to be expected by that point.

    Then there was the whole Outrage fiasco. Still being a relatively weak pokemon with only 2 attacks, one of which was pretty pathetic, and having very little battle experience outside of Scraggy and getting your ass handed to you by a golett, and all of a sudden learning one of the strongest dragon moves out of nowhere, mastered and all to win the match really just felt like a convenient plot device to get Iris to the finals. Add that to the fact that the move has never been heard from again really hits that point home. After that tournament, Axew pretty much stopped doing anything.

    Scraggy learning Hi jump kick was a lot more believable. It had shown to have increased in strength, for example the cottonee episode, and it was taught the move by its evolution, a sort of watch and learn situation. I think that in terms of the anime, watching another pokemon who knows a move that someone wants to learn, or having them teach that move to that someone, is probably the most effective way to learn a move. So I think scraggy learning Hi jump kick was ok.

    Then it was time for some serious battling in the tourney. Scraggy really showed that it was ready for it, and could hold his own and was eager to please. He seems to have that battle hungry nature, more so than Axew. Then of course he learnt Focus blast, one of the strongest fighting moves. This was admittedly a bit less believable than Hi Jump Kick, and I wasn't all that thrilled with it, but I think it was handled much better than Axews outrage. For one, scraggy had seen the move being used before, so it was nothing new, the move did not secure Scraggy the victory, ie he didn't win with it, and was used more as a defensive thing, and it was shown not to have mastered it straight away. Then Ash took these weaknesses and tried to work on them, like any good trainer should, and we have seen focus blast since, and Scraggy still hasn't quite got it right. I think the writers have handled focus blast quite well. At this point Ash deemed Scraggy ready for a gym match, where he was good enough to take out a poke, showing how much he'd grown since hatching.

    Then Axew, who'd done nothing but sit on his hands for a good 40 odd eps, goes up against Garchomp, one of the strongest pokes we've ever seen in the anime, manages to survive 2 attacks somehow, and learn Giga Impact in the process. This to me was straight up Blasphemy. No way could a poke who's done nothing for so long survive attacks from a beast that took out 4 of Paul's pokemon with one hit, and still be standing to pull out of its ass a move that only the strong and experienced pokemon learn. even if Cynthia was going easy on Iris, I hardly think Axew would have survived 2 attacks. It just seems the writers were trying to power up Axew whilst throwing any believability out the window.

    Axews development seems to be a bunch of sitting around and waiting for things to happen. It just gets these power ups every now and again, and doesn't really work on anything. It doesn't feel like he's strong enough to know moves like outrage and Giga impact with the amount of training he's done, definitely not to have mastered them, which is where Scraggy and Axew differ. Scraggy does feel strong enough to have mastered Hi jump kick, and his struggle with focus blast has been well handled. So IMO Scraggy has been handled much better :)
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are handling Axew, and Scraggy's growth properly?

    I think that their growth is being handled well to the extent that it is parallel. But I don't agree with how the writers are "growing" them as such.

    Whenever Axew has battled and won it has either been unrealistic or against Scraggy. One moment he's using Scratch and Dragon Rage, then suddenly he has the most powerful moves on Iris' team. The same goes with Scraggy, although he has had some fair battles and his developement is far better.

    But

    Given that Axew's goal has been to evolve he hasn't done much in that area. And because of that, neither has Scraggy. I'd find it far more believable for Axew to be used in the opening round of tourneys against CoTDs and Emolga take the matches later on. Many of Ash's mons have evolved in their first battles, so why can't Axew evolve after a good four or five?

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are handling Axew, and Scraggy's growth properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    I personally disagree. Axew hasn't shown any sign of being a good battler and it doesn't help that most of the victories it does have aren't that believable.
    What you consider "believable" does not mean much in this convo. If it happened it happened, simple as that.

    I don't think that's what they're going for with keeping Axew in a babyish stage at this point. Axew barely does anything to make that work. While they did say that was the reason behind Piplup not evolving, the fact that it was a secondary mascot played a role in that decision as well. Personally, I don't think that the reason behind Piplup's choice to not evolve was nonsensical, but that's for another topic. I don't remember any comment from the animators explaining why Axew hasn't evolved.
    Well, in BW2 Axew has been shown training on screen 2 so far out of the 8 released episodes and he's learned a new move so at the very least it seems that "barely does anything" is changing.

    And yes, they did in fact say that fans shouldn't expect Axew to evolve too soon because it's much easier to animate it inside of Iris's hair and it would be hard to explain why it's suddenly in a ball. It was in the same statement as the "having Boldore evolve would be hard seeing as it's a trade evolution" stuff. But that was in 2011 IIRC so who knows what's gonna happen now.

    Considering that those matches were mainly used for comedy relief, rather than a genuine sign of their progression, and only lasted for a couple of minutes, that doesn't really work for me. Especially when Axew did already technically beat it after learning Dragon Rage, Scraggy actually had some believable victories in the second Club Battle tournament and I don't think that they've had those practice battle for a long time. I don't see them on an equal level at this point.
    No, those battles are no longer "comical". That's the whole point of them battling over and over, to show how BOTH are growing ... which is why the battles stopped looking like jokes and started looking "real".

    And the last battle they had was before either of them learned their newest moves (Focus blast and Giga). The last time we saw Scraggy battle it had a draw with a wild baby Larvitar in what looked exactly like it's battles with Axew. Trust me, the writers like to make Pokemon fit the power level that they need at that time. Those 2 will be seen as even in their world until one clearly best the other in combat.
    Please calm down. You're more than welcome to disagree with me, as everyone is, but there's no reason to be that rude to me. It's disrespectful and there are more polite ways to say that you disagree with me. Please don't do that again. Axew's progression has been anything but believable for me. I agree that it got less stiff with battling after learning Dragon Rage, but that doesn't make me think it has come a long way since the start of the series. If it did, then Axew would have had more believable progression and far more believable victories. While Scraggy's progression hasn't been perfect either, as I do have a few issues with it as well, I believe that it has been handled better than Axew, even though I don't think that says that much in the grand scheme of things.
    There's no need for me to "calm down", I don't believe there's anything aggressive in that statement nor do I think it's rude to simple say "you're wrong".
    If someone were to tell you 2+5=3 you shouldn't have to candy coat it when you can simply say "no, you're wrong".
    Axew has gone from being a stiff lil Dragon Sneezer with no mobility or endurance to being able to jump, run, dodge, and land attacks like any other Pokemon as well as being able to take some ridiculously massive amounts of damage. Heck, he even knocked down Garchomp which I'm SURE he wouldn't have been able to get close to doing earlier in the series. How "believable" Axew's battles and growth is to you is not my problem and it doesn't take away the fact that these things did in fact happened.
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are handling Axew, and Scraggy's growth properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe View Post
    What you consider "believable" does not mean much in this convo. If it happened it happened, simple as that.
    I still disagree with that. What is believable does matter in this conversation since that plays a significant role in determining how believable their growth has been. Considering that the majority of Axew's victories have been the result of cheap writing, such as defeating that Golett with Outrage that clearly came out of nowhere, the lack of believability in Axew's progression is a significant problem. If all that mattered was that something just happened, then no one would be bothered with Axew learning Outrage or Giga Impact and everyone would be fine with both of their development when that's clearly not the case. If Scraggy's battles were full of cheap/unbelievable wins and it didn't actually work for any of the upgrades it gets, then I would have more problems with Scraggy as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    Well, in BW2 Axew has been shown training on screen 2 so far out of the 8 released episodes and he's learned a new move so at the very least it seems that "barely does anything" is changing.
    I don't think that it is the case considering that Dragonite is the one getting center focus in the World Junior Tournament while Axew is on the sideline again, despite learning another overpowered move. Also, I still find Axew learning Giga Impact to be ridiculous. Prior to that, it didn't really do much of anything significant since the first tournament and then it masters this move out of nowhere. While I think that they could have handled Scraggy learning Hi-Jump Kick much better, at least it didn't take to it right away like Axew seems to be doing. Having on-screen training in two out of eight episodes doesn't really sound like much to brag about either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    And yes, they did in fact say that fans shouldn't expect Axew to evolve too soon because it's much easier to animate it inside of Iris's hair and it would be hard to explain why it's suddenly in a ball. It was in the same statement as the "having Boldore evolve would be hard seeing as it's a trade evolution" stuff. But that was in 2011 IIRC so who knows what's gonna happen now.
    If you don't mind me asking, where did you hear about this? I don't remember hearing about that reason for Axew not evolving anytime soon, although the part about Boldore not evolving due to being a trade evolution sounds a bit familiar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    No, those battles are no longer "comical". That's the whole point of them battling over and over, to show how BOTH are growing ... which is why the battles stopped looking like jokes and started looking "real".

    And the last battle they had was before either of them learned their newest moves (Focus blast and Giga). The last time we saw Scraggy battle it had a draw with a wild baby Larvitar in what looked exactly like it's battles with Axew. Trust me, the writers like to make Pokemon fit the power level that they need at that time. Those 2 will be seen as even in their world until one clearly best the other in combat.
    I don't really think that the battles are that significant considering that they've been relatively brief and usually thrown in at the beginning of the episode. I agree that the writers like to make the Pokemon fit the power level necessary for the situation. Even so, I still think it's more believable that Scraggy is stronger than Axew. It has more believable accomplishments at this point and has actually lasted against strong opponents longer than Axew has in the past. In the show, they probably would put them on an equal level, but considering how far Scraggy actually has come from being completely useless in battle and how Axew's accomplishments, or at least everything after learning Dragon Rage, came off as cheap/unbelievable, it would be hard for me to see them on an equal level of power at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    There's no need for me to "calm down", I don't believe there's anything aggressive in that statement nor do I think it's rude to simple say "you're wrong".
    If someone were to tell you 2+5=3 you shouldn't have to candy coat it when you can simply say "no, you're wrong".
    Axew has gone from being a stiff lil Dragon Sneezer with no mobility or endurance to being able to jump, run, dodge, and land attacks like any other Pokemon as well as being able to take some ridiculously massive amounts of damage. Heck, he even knocked down Garchomp which I'm SURE he wouldn't have been able to get close to doing earlier in the series. How "believable" Axew's battles and growth is to you is not my problem and it doesn't take away the fact that these things did in fact happened.
    Personally, I thought that the way you said I was flat out wrong twice was a bit harsh and rude. It could have been the way I read it too, as that sometimes happens with online discussions like this and it doesn't help that I'm a fairly sensitive person, but I think that you could put your disagreement with my opinion in a more polite way. For the record, being more polite doesn't necessarily mean sugar coating your opinion. I'm, hopefully, coming off as being respectful towards your opinion while still disagreeing with it almost completely. These are opinions and there's a significant difference between the example you mentioned and our discussion. All I was trying to say is that you could find a nicer way to say that you disagree with me. I don't really think that came across clearly.

    I'm fully aware of how Axew started and how it was able to knock down Cynthia's Garchomp. That still doesn't mean that it has come a long way for me when Axew's development has been horribly handled with cheap/unbelievable victories and accomplishments. Like I mentioned earlier, just because those events happened doesn't necessarily mean that Axew's growth has been handled properly, especially when being able to knock down Cynthia's Garchomp, which took four of Paul's Pokemon back in DP down with ease, after being extremely inactive. Aside from maybe a couple of practice matches with Scraggy and maybe fighting off Team Rocket once or twice, Axew didn't really do much of anything significant and certainly not enough to warrant causing damage to Garchomp and learning another overpowered move.

    I don't think that just saying that these events happened give a proper indication of how their growth has been handled and I still think that believability plays a significant role in determining whether that growth has been handled well or not. Scraggy started off with being just about as useless in battle as Axew was, but because of the work it did through training and having believable victories under its belt, I can find Scraggy's progression believable. It isn't perfect since I still think Hi-Jump Kick could have been mastered after a few episodes working on it and it really would have been nice if it had done something other than a few practice matches with Axew between its debut and learning Hi-Jump Kick, but I do think that the writers have done a pretty decent job with Scraggy. Axew's progression, on the other hand, pretty much lost me the moment it learned Outrage and even then, the way it learned Dragon Rage came off as a bit weird to me, although it's the only one of Axew's upgrades that it did at least work for, which is more than I can say for both Outrage and Giga Impact. I really don't think that believability should be completely disregarded in this situation, or in most situations for that matter.
    Last edited by Hidden Mew; 1st September 2012 at 03:18 AM.
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  12. #27
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are handling Axew, and Scraggy's growth properly?

    Axew's growth is horrible. XD How can anyone say it's handled properly? Scraggy Is doing fine, though.
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    Registered User Reivaxe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are handling Axew, and Scraggy's growth properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    I still disagree with that. What is believable does matter in this conversation since that plays a significant role in determining how believable their growth has been.
    You: Axew hasn't shown to be a good battler. Why? Because I don't personally find it's battles believable!
    Me: It doesn't matter what you find believable. Here are the ABC facts that happened which shows that Axew is a good battler.

    Just because you may feel something is "badly written" doesn't mean that it's not a factual event that happened in the show.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    I don't think that it is the case considering that Dragonite is the one getting center focus in the World Junior Tournament while Axew is on the sideline again, despite learning another overpowered move. Also, I still find Axew learning Giga Impact to be ridiculous. Prior to that, it didn't really do much of anything significant since the first tournament and then it masters this move out of nowhere. While I think that they could have handled Scraggy learning Hi-Jump Kick much better, at least it didn't take to it right away like Axew seems to be doing. Having on-screen training in two out of eight episodes doesn't really sound like much to brag about either.
    1. Iris did this with Diva in the first Tourney. She used her the most because she wanted to connect with her. Of course she's gonna focus on the new capture until they reach a nice comfort level She didn't suddenly forget about Axew and she wont forget about him now.

    2. Neither move was handled poorly. Scraggy learned by watching and talking to it's evolve ... Axew learned by battling a monstrous Garchomp and likely from seeing it use Dragon Rush. What's a clearly better way to learn these moves? Sure, would have been nice for Ash to try to teach Scraggy but w/e.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    If you don't mind me asking, where did you hear about this? I don't remember hearing about that reason for Axew not evolving anytime soon, although the part about Boldore not evolving due to being a trade evolution sounds a bit familiar.
    I'm no good with tracking down translations of JPN interviews, you would be better off making a thread on Serebii or w/e asking about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    I don't really think that the battles are that significant considering that they've been relatively brief and usually thrown in at the beginning of the episode.
    Those battles are important to those 2 characters but NOT important to the episodes, that's why they're normally not the focus of an episode ...
    And again, what you consider believable means nothing to me when we have actual things to look at. You can say that you feel that it's badly written and not handled properly but to use that as an excuse to disregard actual events is not the correct course of action in this convo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    I'm fully aware of how Axew started and how it was able to knock down Cynthia's Garchomp. That still doesn't mean that it has come a long way for me when Axew's development has been horribly handled with cheap/unbelievable victories and accomplishments.
    No, like I said, you can say it was "bad writing" but to take a Pokemon that couldn't even land a scratch on PANSAGE and fast forward to it knocking over what's clearly the strongest trainer owned Pokemon in the series ... that's the DEFINITION of "coming a long way". You liking it or not doesn't mean anything when talking about how far it's come. You can acknowledge that it has "come a long way" AND STILL argue that it's not well written ... but to cover your ears and eyes and say "I don't like how it happened so it doesn't count to me!" isn't getting us anywhere.
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  14. #29
    Moderator Hidden Mew's Avatar Forum Head
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are handling Axew, and Scraggy's growth properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe View Post
    You: Axew hasn't shown to be a good battler. Why? Because I don't personally find it's battles believable!
    Me: It doesn't matter what you find believable. Here are the ABC facts that happened which shows that Axew is a good battler.

    Just because you may feel something is "badly written" doesn't mean that it's not a factual event that happened in the show.
    I'm not denying that Axew's battles have happened. I'm just saying that because of Axew's victories being unbelievable/cheap, I don't think that its development is at all believable or that the writers are doing a good job with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    1. Iris did this with Diva in the first Tourney. She used her the most because she wanted to connect with her. Of course she's gonna focus on the new capture until they reach a nice comfort level She didn't suddenly forget about Axew and she wont forget about him now.
    I realize that she wants to use the tournament in order to connect with Dragonite. That sounds fine on paper, but it doesn't make me think that Axew doing barely anything is changing. I'm also not saying that Iris forgot about Axew. I'm just saying that it's still going to remain a cute and overpowered hair accessory at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    2. Neither move was handled poorly. Scraggy learned by watching and talking to it's evolve ... Axew learned by battling a monstrous Garchomp and likely from seeing it use Dragon Rush. What's a clearly better way to learn these moves? Sure, would have been nice for Ash to try to teach Scraggy but w/e.
    Out of the two, Hi-Jump Kick was handled better. I know that Scraggy learned by watching and talking to its evolved form and it actually did practice for a little awhile. The main problems I had with it was that Scraggy was still pretty useless up until that episode so I would have preferred either Scraggy's other moves becoming more effective, i.e. doing more damage to Pokemon that are not Axew, or practice the move for a few episodes, similar to how they handled Focus Blast. While Axew also learned Giga Impact from watching Garchomp, I find it to be more problematic since not only has Axew been pretty inactive since the first Club Battle tournament, but it had trouble master Dragon Rage. Not to mention it didn't even practice like Scraggy did before getting the move down. Considering that Axew struggled to master Dragon Rage, it shouldn't be able to use Outrage or Giga Impact with no problem, especially when it isn't that active in battle. If Axew had been more battle active than it actually was and it worked to learn Outrage and Giga Impact, then I probably wouldn't have much of a problem with Axew learning those moves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    I'm no good with tracking down translations of JPN interviews, you would be better off making a thread on Serebii or w/e asking about it.
    I'll just do a search for it then at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    Those battles are important to those 2 characters but NOT important to the episodes, that's why they're normally not the focus of an episode ...
    And again, what you consider believable means nothing to me when we have actual things to look at. You can say that you feel that it's badly written and not handled properly but to use that as an excuse to disregard actual events is not the correct course of action in this convo.
    I know that those battles aren't important to the episodes that feature them, so they're normally not the focus of an episode, but they don't really make much of a big deal about those brief battles, so I don't really see those battles as a proper reflection of their growth or how strong they are.

    I think that you're misunderstanding what I've saying. I'm not saying that these events didn't happen because of being poorly written or being unbelievable. I've been saying that Axew's victories being full of cheap/unbelievable victories and upgrades that come out of nowhere makes shows that the writers aren't handling it properly and that it has little, if any, growth. Sure, events happen to make it look like Axew is stronger, but I think that only works with a complete disregard of believability, which is important for determining if the writers are handling the growth for both Scraggy and Axew properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    No, like I said, you can say it was "bad writing" but to take a Pokemon that couldn't even land a scratch on PANSAGE and fast forward to it knocking over what's clearly the strongest trainer owned Pokemon in the series ... that's the DEFINITION of "coming a long way". You liking it or not doesn't mean anything when talking about how far it's come. You can acknowledge that it has "come a long way" AND STILL argue that it's not well written ... but to cover your ears and eyes and say "I don't like how it happened so it doesn't count to me!" isn't getting us anywhere.
    It looks like Axew has come a long way on paper, but does that really mean anything if being able to knock over a Garchomp comes off as complete and utter nonsense? Aside from arguably Dragon Rage, Axew hasn't worked for any of its victories or accomplishments in the series and spends much more time in Iris' hair than on the battle field. When a character has come a long way, that normally means that they've gone through a long of struggles and worked hard to reach whatever goal they're reaching for. Axew hasn't really done that and everything, past Dragon Rage at least, has been handled to it with little to no effort involved, so saying that it has come a long way when the vast majority of its accomplishments have been full of cheap writing doesn't work for me. Again, I'm not saying that it doesn't count. I'm just saying that I don't think referring to Axew as coming a long way really fits given how little it has actually worked to get to this point, not to mention how unbelievable it is that Axew could knock down Cynthia's Garchomp.

    Let's just agree to disagree and end the discussion here. I'm afraid that we're going to end up going around in circles at this point and I don't quite like the impression that you're putting words in my mouth either. So, let's just try to respect each others' opinion, even though we disagree with them, and end it here.
    Shinneth likes this.

  15. #30
    Registered User Adamant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are handling Axew, and Scraggy's growth properly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaxe
    And yes, they did in fact say that fans shouldn't expect Axew to evolve too soon because it's much easier to animate it inside of Iris's hair and it would be hard to explain why it's suddenly in a ball. It was in the same statement as the "having Boldore evolve would be hard seeing as it's a trade evolution" stuff. But that was in 2011 IIRC so who knows what's gonna happen now.
    If you don't mind me asking, where did you hear about this? I don't remember hearing about that reason for Axew not evolving anytime soon, although the part about Boldore not evolving due to being a trade evolution sounds a bit familiar.
    They're both just "statements" Iwane said as a joke on his blog. They were never intended to be taken seriously.
    So.

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