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  1. #91
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja View Post
    Think about, Iris could have simply said; "Yeah, it was Doryuuzu's fault after all. I didn't do anything wrong, he's such a kid."
    Which is pretty much what the message of the episode was. The entire episode says, "Iris is not to blame, Doryuuzu was freaking out and misunderstood his trainer caring and encouraging him as her not caring (the details of how he could have made that mistakes are actually felt very forced and weren't believable). What Iris is saying is almost verbatim that. She's saying that Doryuuzu felt he couldn't win, yet she didn't stop encouraging and believing in him, and then she admits... what exactly? "Sorry it didn't cross my mind that encouraging and caring for you, telling you I believe in you, would make me come across as a careless bitch" Which then in turn makes Doryuuzu realize he was wrong... and then both act exactly as Iris says they should have acted from the start.

    Nothing changed, Iris didn't developed. Doryuuzu technically developed, as he changed, but the change came after a total character derailment and a less than believable change, because the episode itself went out of its way not to portray Iris as having done anything wrong. And that's the telltale sign of Mary Sue because the writers decisions ultimately stunted or downplayed everyone's development just to make Iris come out of this without any blame on her.

    But even then, that the writers handled that storyline for Iris in a very marysueish way, doesn't mean that Iris herself is a Mary Sue... yet. But the way her other storylines are unfolding, namely Kibago and Emonga... there's again no real potential for development because the writers never make herself struggle because of something internal.

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    ポケモン Tsutarja's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    I'll just say that Iris did develop in BW036, that's my opinion and I will stay by my opinion.

    True, Iris doesn't struggle with anything (anything that has to do with her, like you said), but that doesn't make her Mary Sue-ish. She has flaws like any character, interesting and entertaining rivalry with Langley (depends on the person), she's three-dimensional and has funny interactions when it comes to Ash and Dento, especially Dento. I find the fact she considers him a pain whenever he does one of these things quite amusing since a female didn't do that in a while after Dawn and Brock's interactions. For example, she made me chuckle in the episode which was supposed to revolve around our detective Dento, lol. Wasn't Dento supposed to be the entertainment? Because I didn't see it. True, I enjoy both Iris and Dento but more so when it comes to Iris. :)

  3. #93
    ひっでぇ・・・ Sushi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Nothing changed, Iris didn't developed. Doryuuzu technically developed, as he changed, but the change came after a total character derailment and a less than believable change, because the episode itself went out of its way not to portray Iris as having done anything wrong.
    It was the exact opposite. A Trainer not realizing that their opponent was way too strong, or encouraging their Pokémon despite minimal chances of winning, have rarely ever been an issue in this anime (if ever), but in this episode, it was suddenly portrayed as a huge problem and a serious mistake.

    It was similar to how people suddenly remember to use the terrain to their advantage in battle in this anime, or how May's offensive battling style was oh-so-detrimental at the end of Battle Frontier despite the fact that it never proved to be troublesome before that. So if anything, the episode went out of its way to find a reason to kick Iris' ass, not to make her look innocent.

    That said, Iris was pretty over-confident and inattentive when she battled Drayden. Her having flashbacks of Excadrill's shocked expression after the first hit shows that she saw his reaction, but paid it no mind at that time and angrily told him to do what she said instead. The silent interaction between the Matriarch and Drayden also proved that the battle (and the loss) was planned, that it was meant to make Iris reconsider her attitude. They certainly wouldn't have looked so content if they didn't think that Iris needed that loss and that she was on the wrong track.

    Never once was it implied in that episode that Iris "didn't do anything wrong after all". Cilan told her that she might not have put enough effort into understanding Excadrill, she realized he was right about that and went to talk to her Pokémon. She figured out the reason behind Excadrill's behavior during the battle and apologized to him because she'd been immature and too focused on their 100th victory to notice anything else.

    Excadrill began to understand that she didn't really have any malicious intentions when she pushed him to continue, but still wouldn't let her touch him, implying that he was still angry with her. Iris' humbleness during that scene and her vow to try harder to understand her Pokémon's feelings at the end of the episode don't exactly scream, "It turned out that Iris was in the right" either, if you ask me.

    Granted, I personally thought the misunderstanding was mutual since Excadrill seemed a little too sensitive, shutting himself off and not listening to Iris for what seemed like months (or even years), but the episode itself certainly made it look like Iris was the bogeyman and no one else.

    However, most development episodes revolve around issues that appear out of thin air anyway, just like Charizard and Piloswine/Mamoswine who just suddenly decided that their Trainers were unworthy of their obedience. So all in all, Iris' problem was actually one of the better-handled ones since it was foreshadowed long before it was worked on and resolved. The only downside was that the character's "faulty" attitude was exaggerated and harmful for that one episode alone, but the same goes for every single Ash-gets-overconfident episode (+ May's) as well.

    You can criticize the writers' tendency to do that in the first place, but then you have to apply it to all cases, not just Iris'.
    Last edited by Sushi; 3rd July 2011 at 04:06 PM.

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    ポケモン Tsutarja's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Yes, I pretty much agree with Sushi. While Doryuuzu did get development, claiming Iris had 0 development in that episode is basically crazy. Disliking a character is one thing, but going against the facts is completely different.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Best Wishes ^^ View Post
    I'll just say that Iris did develop in BW036, that's my opinion and I will stay by my opinion.
    The episode proves differently.

    True, Iris doesn't struggle with anything (anything that has to do with her, like you said), but that doesn't make her Mary Sue-ish.
    Actually, that is a trait that can definitely lead a character to be a Mary Sue depending on that character's role on the show and the other traits that character possess. And given how the writers have portrayed Iris in both those departements, she's closer to being a Mary Sue than any other character on Pokémon since Solidad.

    She has flaws like any character
    A Mary Sue can have flaws, because again, it's not the presence or absence of flaws that makes a Mary Sue, it's if those flaws allow development or if they stunt storylines. In Iris' case, none of her flaws are actually treated as such and they lead to actual development. Everybody still likes her despite those flaws and acts as if nothing she does is ever a problem, such as...

    has funny interactions when it comes to Ash and Dento, especially Dento. I find the fact she considers him a pain whenever he does one of these things quite amusing
    Thing is, those are actually not interactions. Dento does something, Iris is stank about it, but really doesn't add anything to it that makes Dento react (which would make it an interaction since the two characters would bounce off each other). Here Dento is hilarious, Iris brings all comedy down with her Debbie Downer attitude and that's it. There's no more interaction and the comedy is dead. Not only are those not well-written interactions, but it really leads nowhere since Dento isn't reacting, and nobody's calling Iris out on it. None of the characters care, and quite frankly, neither do I.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sushi View Post
    It was the exact opposite. A Trainer not realizing that their opponent was way too strong, or encouraging their Pokémon despite minimal chances of winning, have rarely ever been an issue in this anime (if ever), but in this episode, it was suddenly portrayed as a huge problem and a serious mistake.
    Which proves how much forced and non-believable the issue was in the first place... XD

    But I disagree partially with you on two points. First, because in the other examples you've listed, the writers went out of their way to really portray the character in a negative light, really went out of their way to hammer down that this was a flaw, but here... not really. Iris is portrayed as being wanting to encourage and cheer for her pokémon, she's obviously caring about him. She's not portrayed as overtly arrogant and displeasant to Shaga, and she's really showing she cared about Doryuuzu in the first place. And second, in the way the episode is resolved. Doryuuzu is the one proven wrong, Doryuuzu is the one really changing, Doryuuzu is the one that really has to recognized that Iris really cares about him, that he misunderstood her and that ultimately, after a defeat he should train to be better and not sulk.

    Excadrill began to understand that she didn't really have any malicious intentions when she pushed him to continue, but still wouldn't let her touch him, implying that he was still angry with her. Iris' humbleness during that scene and her vow to try harder to understand her Pokémon's feelings at the end of the episode don't exactly scream, "It turned out that Iris was in the right" either, if you ask me.
    Yes, it portrays Doryuuzu still being distrusting (i.e. in a negative light) to Iris being portrayed in a positive light (which echoes her encouragement of Doryuuzu in the flashback), and when Iris vows to "understand her pokémon's feelings", that promise holds no weight when it comes at the end of an episode where the writers consistantly put the origin of the problem in Doryuuzu not understanding Iris and misreading her. So yeah, it does scream, "Iris was right all along," or at the very least, "Iris hadn't really done anything wrong all along."

    Plus, the next time Iris comes up against a strong opponent... it's not as if she's really gonna go, "Ooooh I've learned that you is too powerful, so I'll take me pokémon and go on me merry way!" She didn't change, didn't grow, didn't learn anything really. Whereas Doryuuzu has learned to trust in Iris more, and that you can't freak out because there's a strong opponent in front of you, you just gotta do your best, and if you lose, train and do better next time.
    Last edited by Hellion; 3rd July 2011 at 04:24 PM.

  6. #96
    ひっでぇ・・・ Sushi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    But I disagree partially with you on two points. First, because in the other examples you've listed, the writers went out of their way to really portray the character in a negative light, really went out of their way to hammer down that this was a flaw, but here... not really.
    ...If that's how you really see it, then there's nothing to be done about it. I thought the writers went an extra mile to show that Iris was too blinded by the prospect of getting her 100th victory to consider her Pokémon's limits, or even the possibility that a Haxorus trained by a Dragon Master might be a little too much for her. Oh well, let's agree to disagree here.

    Iris is portrayed as being wanting to encourage and cheer for her pokémon, she's obviously caring about him. She's not portrayed as overtly arrogant and displeasant to Shaga, and she's really showing she cared about Doryuuzu in the first place.
    The other main characters shown to have confidence issues cared about their Pokémon too. May wasn't particularly impolite towards the Contest jury or Savannah. Ash's attitude towards Prima was pretty terrible, but then again, Ash's attitude was pretty terrible in general for most of the OS. My memory's foggy, but he seemed to be behaving well in his battle against Drake.

    The point is that in BW033, as well as May's Contest ep and Ash's Mandarin Island fiasco, their Pokémon's well-being wasn't their top priority during that one deciding moment, because they were pre-occupried with other things. Namely winning.

    And second, in the way the episode is resolved. Doryuuzu is the one proven wrong, Doryuuzu is the one really changing, Doryuuzu is the one that really has to recognized that Iris really cares about him, that he misunderstood her and that ultimately, after a defeat he should train to be better and not sulk.
    He realized that Iris cared about him after she apologized to him. Before that, she probably thought that her Pokémon had some weird issues, that it was a bad loser and that she didn't have anything to do with it.

    Noticing that his sulking was actually distrust and that she was the one who had evoked it was the key to resolving this issue. Her long winning streak had made her reckless and caused her to think she was invincible. Excadrill's reluctance after the first hit puzzled her, because what could he possibly scared about when they were going to win anyway? Was he so finicky that he couldn't even take a few hits before they'd ultimately seize victory? Never mind, just do what I say and use Dig.

    and when Iris vows to "understand her pokémon's feelings", that promise holds no weight when it comes at the end of an episode where the writers consistantly put the origin of the problem in Doryuuzu not understanding Iris and misreading her.
    Excadrill not understanding Iris and misreading her was caused by Iris not understanding Excadrill and misreading him.

    Please note that I did say that there seemed to be issues on both sides, not Iris' alone. It's merely a little inconceivable to me that someone wouldn't see how Iris played a part in this misery when the episodes focused so heavily on her contribution to it, not Excadrill's. Then again, since we disagree about that part as well, I guess it's not that inconceivable after all ^^"
    Last edited by Sushi; 3rd July 2011 at 04:58 PM.

  7. #97
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sushi View Post
    I thought the writers went an extra mile to show that Iris was too blinded by the prospect of getting her 100th victory to consider her Pokémon's limits
    How so exactly? By showing that Doryuuzu was still physically able to battle after that hit and hadn't really taken a hit? In the contest examples you've listed, the writers put the pokémon through the wringer, even had them gain status ailment, and then still show the trainer not caring. Here, there's none of that. Doryuuzu is still shown to be more than able to battle, Iris is shown trying to get him fired up, and encourages him to continue battling. But the minute that Doryuuzu is seriously hurt, Iris drops the battle instantly, contrary to the contest example you've listed. In the contest episode you're referring too, the writers clearly made the character cross the line, which then lead to development. In Iris' case, the writers didn't have her cross the line, which then lead to a stunted development because they went out of their way to make it not about Iris.

    And that's the difference, in one, the writers had no problems hammering the point that the trainer itself was flawed, which in the end, led to actual development. But here... there's no real change except for Doryuuzu. Iris isn't gonna have a different attitude the next time she battles a strong opponent, she'll do what she did the first time: encourage Doryuuzu, and if they lose, train and try harder. But Doryuuzu is gonna react differently as now, he realizes that he was wrong about Iris not caring about him.

    Before that, she probably thought that her Pokémon had some weird issues, that it was a bad loser and that she didn't have anything to do with it.
    Which again, she really didn't. She was portrayed as encouraging him when it was still able to battle, and caring the second it was physically unable to. Doryuuzu misread that for carelessness because of his own insecurities, and his own fears.

  8. #98
    ポケモン Tsutarja's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    I pretty much agree with Sushi. ^^

    You can disagree all you like, you can make up as many facts as you like (which aren't really there btw) but the point and fact are that Iris did develop in this episode, she did grow as a person and a trainer. Both she and her Doryuuzu, they developed together.

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    Princess of Sinnoh martianmister's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Iris was the wrong one. She didn't try to understand Doryuuzu's feelings, and did nothing about it for years.
    Bubble Frog and Trainer Yusuf like this.
    1. Satoshi/Ash Ketchum: 801 episodes
    2. Team Rocket: 736 episodes
    3. Takeshi/Brock: 633 episodes
    4. Kasumi/Misty: 282 episodes
    5. Hikari/Dawn: 201 episodes
    6. Haruka/May: 197 episodes
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    8. Iris: 141 episodes
    9. Dent/Cilan: 138 episodes
    10. Kenji/Tracey: 44 episodes

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    ポケモン Tsutarja's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    I actually find this situation a bit ironic.

    Before this episode, people complained about how Iris did nothing about Doryuuzu and were bothered by that fact and we justified that by saying how that was her method of training her Pokémon. Now that she's back together with Doryuuzu, some users are claiming Iris tried hard over all these years just to justify their opinion of Doryuuzu being the only one wrong and getting development.

    It's pretty funny when you think about it. :P
    martianmister likes this.

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    Cuter in real life Iteru's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Get back to Iris, and not (groups of) users.

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    ポケモン Tsutarja's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Everything in here pretty much is about Iris, one small remark about how users felt before and now won't hurt.

  13. #103
    SHSL Gambler CrackFox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Which is pretty much what the message of the episode was. The entire episode says, "Iris is not to blame, Doryuuzu was freaking out and misunderstood his trainer caring and encouraging him as her not caring (the details of how he could have made that mistakes are actually felt very forced and weren't believable). What Iris is saying is almost verbatim that. She's saying that Doryuuzu felt he couldn't win, yet she didn't stop encouraging and believing in him, and then she admits... what exactly? "Sorry it didn't cross my mind that encouraging and caring for you, telling you I believe in you, would make me come across as a careless bitch" Which then in turn makes Doryuuzu realize he was wrong... and then both act exactly as Iris says they should have acted from the start.
    Completely disagree with your interpretation of that episode. Dory didn't just decide to stop being moody, the turning point came when Iris started to cry and he realized how sorry she was. I admit the whole episode was very poorly put together and I'm disappointed that the back story turned out to be so weak.
    I think what the writers were basically trying to say is that the reason Dory became upset with Iris was because she got too carried away with always wanting to win at any cost and didn't stop to think about Doryuuzu's feelings or ability and maybe, pushed it to work too hard out of selfishness.
    Iris, basically admitted that she had seen the error of her ways and vowed to be a better, more considerate trainer from now on. How is that not character development? In the world of Pokemon, that kind of thing is the only development any character ever receives, to learn from their mistakes and promise to improve themselves.

  14. #104
    Cuter in real life Iteru's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja View Post
    Everything in here pretty much is about Iris, one small remark about how users felt before and now won't hurt.
    Commenting on how its funny that people changed their opinions isn't about how you feel about Iris' role.

    Drop the attitude please. If you disagree with a warning in a thread, contact me via VM or PM.

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    ポケモン Tsutarja's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Okey dokey. ˘_˘

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