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    ポケモン Tsutarja's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Except she didn't make a mistake. No one in the episode, not even Iris, has said or implied that Iris did a mistake, not even Doryuuzu who realizes she was right all along and that he was wrong. There's absolutely no character development since there's no change to the character. Iris remained the same as she always was, because she was proven right on all points.
    Let's assume Iris did not make a mistake, Iris from BW002 and BW003 would have never admitted such thing. She would just call her Doryuuzu a kid and give up. After Dento told her that she made a mistake, Iris swallowed her pride and apologized herself. ^^



    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    She was shown to be willing to train Emonga, wanting to battle alongside Emonga, but Emonga's attitude got in the way. The problem is coming solely from Emonga and Emonga will be the sole character to develop.
    The first time we saw Emonga after 10 episodes was in BW035, and then we saw her in BW039 where she disobeyed Iris again. In the episodes before that we didn't even see Iris send her out and try to do something about it. My conclusion: if Iris were such a good trainer as everyone claim she would have no issues making Emonga listen to her in no time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    I love a bitchy character, a three-dimensional, well-conceived bitchy character that can stand on its own, develop, help other characters develop, while remaining snarky, bitchy and humourous. Problem is, Langley isn't any of that. The sad thing is, Langley has the potential to be a great character, because there are traits in her that could be developped, to make her more three-dimensional had the writers not been Iris-centric in conceiving her character, but right now, they're using her as a prop to make Iris look good, which once again shows Iris stunting other characters' development.

    So far, the only two problematic rivalries on the shows... are the two that Iris is involved in, Iris/Langley and Satoshi/Shooti, because she stunts every possible development in those. When you think about it, Cabernet wasn't conceived as a Dento-centric character, even though there's a lot of tension between the two and he's her main motivation, and yet the writers took the time to make her interact with other characters, stand on her own, and show a vulnerable side, so that even if she's a psycho, she's a loveable psycho. XD Same for Bel and Satoshi, Bel stands on her own, isn't there as a prop to Satoshi, she's got her own problems and her own hilarious interactions with Satoshi and Dento. But with Iris/Langley, Langley cannot stand as her own character, and she's effectively there to be Iris' prop, and then there's how the writers have all but made the Shooti/Satoshi rivalry all about Iris, stunting any possible development that could come from it.
    And again, all of this doesn't matter because their rivalry entertains me. ^^

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja View Post
    Let's assume Iris did not make a mistake
    She didn't, nor did Dento tell her she did. Dento hints that Iris didn't understand that Doryuuzu was wrong about her, that Doryuuzu had not understood her. And therefore, there's absolutely no change in her personality, nor is there any development.

    In the episodes before that we didn't even see Iris send her out and try to do something about it.
    We did in BW028, where it was shown that Iris cared, Iris had all the good intentions, but Emonga is refusing to listen. Meaning, the problem comes solely from Emonga, and therefore Emonga is the one that will have to change, to develop, not Iris who'll just remained the same, and that's not development, that's not making me care.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    She didn't, nor did Dento tell her she did. Dento hints that Iris didn't understand that Doryuuzu was wrong about her, that Doryuuzu had not understood her. And therefore, there's absolutely no change in her personality, nor is there any development.
    An immature brat admitted that she made a mistake. You think she didn't make a mistake, so what? She still admitted under the belief she had. Although our opinions whether she has or hasn't done a mistake differ, she did develop and that's a fact.

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    Gonna be a tl;dr Master! Shinneth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja View Post
    Let's assume Iris did not make a mistake, Iris from BW002 and BW003 would have never admitted such thing. She would just call her Doryuuzu a kid and give up. After Dento told her that she made a mistake, Iris swallowed her pride and apologized herself. ^^
    Uh, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Iris end up calling Excadrill a kid by the end of that episode anyway?

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja View Post
    she did develop and that's a fact.
    Then what's the change? There's none. All her opinions about how to train Doryuuzu were proven right, she was cleared of any fault in the problem which was shown and stated to be Doryuuzu's fault.

    Doryuuzu changed, Doryuuzu realized he had made a mistake, Doryuuzu developed, but Iris stayed exactly the same, being portrayed not only as someone who had learned nothing, but as someone who had nothing to learn since she had been right all along.
    Last edited by Hellion; 3rd July 2011 at 01:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    Uh, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Iris end up calling Excadrill a kid by the end of that episode anyway?
    Nope :p

    /contribution

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Doryuuzu changed, Doryuuzu realized he had made a mistake, Doryuuzu developed, but Iris stayed exactly the same, being portrayed not only as someone who had learned nothing, but as someone who had nothing to learn since she had been right all along.
    Iris became slightly mature, learned not to shove all her mistakes on others by being childish and instead decided to pay more attention to the feelings of her Pokémon. ^^

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja View Post
    learned not to shove all her mistakes on others
    What mistakes? She didn't make any and the problem was solely stemming from Doryuuzu, and everyone in the episode indicated that it was all Doryuuzu, even Iris herself. But she didn't mature, or learn anything; Doryuuzu learned that you should still give your all even against a strong opponent, Doryuuzu learned that even when you lose, you shouldn't give up and still try to train to become better; Doryuuzu learned that Iris hadn't disregarded his well-being but really believed in both of them. Doryuuzu developed, Iris stayed the same.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    I thought we agreed that our opinions differ on that matter. I still think she made a mistake, and that's pretty much it.

    Also, way to ignore the rest of my post.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Except... in this case, it's not an opinion. Iris didn't make a mistake. The episode went out of its way to show Iris didn't make a mistake and was right all along, really prompting no change in Iris' character. Opinion comes from how one feels about it.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Depends on how a person sees it. The night scene pretty much emphasized that Iris has grown enough for her to admit her mistakes. Which some can't see, apparently.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja View Post
    The night scene pretty much emphasized that Iris has grown enough for her to admit her mistakes.
    No she hasn't, cause she didn't make any mistakes. She says so herself, Dento says so, everybody at the Shaga/Iris match acted as such. In the night scene, she says that Doryuuzu knew he couldn't win the battle, but all she did was encourage and support him, which isn't a mistake since even against a strong opponent, you should still not give up and give it your all. Ultimately, she's sorry that Doryuuzu felt like she didn't care, which she herself says she had given him no reason to, and was always portrayed as being Doryuuzu's fault. She admits no mistakes, learns no lesson, and was shown to be right all along.

    There's no development there for Iris, and that's a fact. One's opinion on that can vary. One might like it in spite of the lack of development for Iris just as easily as one might have preferred that storyline to be written better, in a way that actually makes Iris and Doryuuzu both develop as characters, that presents a change in Iris, sees her struggle to overcome obstacles, none of which happened in the episode.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Isn't it basically a same thing? Admitting a mistake although you didn't make one doesn't change the fact you admitted.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja View Post
    Isn't it basically a same thing? Admitting a mistake although you didn't make one doesn't change the fact you admitted.
    But admitted what? An admission of guilt can only lead to development if the person making the admission is actually guilty, which isn't the case here since Doryuuzu's problem came from him not understanding Iris, not Iris misunderstanding Doryuuzu, and if the admission actually leads the character to change, which isn't at all the case here since Iris was proven to have been right all along. Ergo, no development, and Iris wasn't protrayed as having done anything wrong to cause the problem. So she didn't have to change anything, didn't learn anything.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    But in this case it led to character change anyway. Think about, Iris could have simply said; "Yeah, it was Doryuuzu's fault after all. I didn't do anything wrong, he's such a kid." ; ya know? But she didn't, she admitted what she thought which is development in itself. She grew a little bit and matured as well. But she still has a long way to go. ^^

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