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Thread: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

  1. #556
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    In my opinion, the only good piece of advice Iris got during the Junior Cup was Cynthia saying that she needs to work on her relationship with Dragonite. That would have made a lot more sense to bring it up right after the first round, instead of just everyone reassuring Iris that everything was okay, and including that she should use a different Pokemon for the rest of the tournament, but I still think that was the only really helpful bit of advice Iris was given. Although, Iris honestly should have figured that out herself right after the first round and decide to work more on Dragonite on her own, rather than just keep on shouting and crying at it in the hopes that it would actually work. Considering she did pretty much the same thing with Excadrill and that wasn't solved through battling, Iris trying to do that with Dragonite without doing anything different or trying to understand the problem herself does make her look like she learned absolutely nothing from that first problem. I don't think that the problem with Excadrill was solved that well either, but it didn't involve using it in battle, but rather working on her relationship with it off of the battle-field. If Iris had made the connection and decided to use a different Pokemon for the rest of the tournament, then that could have showed some decent development on her part, that she actually learned something through this journey and possibly would have taken action on this problem herself after the tournament.

    A part of me thinks that she would still get an undeserved victory from the second round even if she did use Excadrill, but it would have made her look like a better trainer, as opposed looking terrible by continuing to use Dragonite and just hope that the problem would solve itself with little to no action on her part. I really did find her completely annoying and unlikable during Dragonite attacking out of rage. All she did was shout and cry at it to listen to her and didn't even try recalling Dragonite when its attacks were going near the other trainers and the people in the audience. That just made Iris look like she valued winning the match more than the safety of others around her. To be fair, I doubt that recalling Dragonite would have really worked since that rarely works when a Pokemon doesn't listen to their trainer. Even so, it would have put Iris in at least a slightly better light in that she recognized that she was way over her head with using Dragonite and that she needed to stop the match immediately so that people wouldn't be in danger, instead of hoping that Dragonite would listen to her again so that she could still win.

    At this point, Iris still looks like she isn't anywhere closer to begin a Dragon Master than she was when she first left the Village of Dragons with Axew. They haven't really done a great job with explaining what a Dragon Master is, although I think it was something like a trainer who bonds with the heart of Dragon Pokemon, but despite BW having over a hundred episodes, it doesn't feel like Iris has made a lot of significant accomplishments to make me think she is any closer to her goal or has made decent progression as a trainer in general.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    [QUOTE=Chiplet;4525051]
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulisthebest View Post
    When you talk about her knowledge of Unova Pokemon including dragons then yes she does possess knowledge but seriously she just gave Ash heck for not knowing certain things even though he’s from an entirely different region (not excluding Trip from doing the same thing), I mean every region there is someone that just rants on Ash for not knowing the name of a city or something like that I mean Dawn did that last season.
    Honestly, it does in fact feel like your changing your mind quite a bit. Just a moment ago, you said that Iris barely possessed any knowledge, but now she does? And now the problem is that she's ranting on Ash? How come that you're switching topics all of the time? If you want to discuss Iris ranting on Ash, then please, take that with someone else. Either you stick to the discussion we had about justice in battle or you leave it at that.

    I didn’t say she had a hard time identifying one, I meant controlling or taming one. Besides, she is a bit naïve with the whole “there is no such thing as a bad dragon type!” back in Kanto, Ekans and Koffing explain to Meowth that there is no such thing as a bad Pokemon, they only do bad things because their master is bad. However, that can’t be said for Pokemon who are wild now can it?
    Of course she had troubles controlling and taming them! They were rampaging, obviously. Neither Ash or Cilan would've been able to handle it better than Iris did, because they can't communicate with Dragon-types in the same way. What matters is the fact that she tries, regardless of the danger she puts herself in, and that she also after a while actually succeeds in getting through to them. And what would you honestly expect from a 10 year old? Saying that Iris, a 10 year old kid, is naive sounds a little bit stupid. Having Iris say that makes perfect sense, since she deeply cares for all kind of Dragon-types and honestly does believe that all of them are good, which they even might be. It's like saying that you believe in Santa.

    Wild Pokémon that are ''bad'' have nearly always been proved to be misunderstood in one way or another, or others have stepped into their territory. That doesn't make them evil.

    I’m just saying I wish they’d give more clarification as to when a person reaches the title of Dragon Master that’s it period. Axew is hard to measure by because it knows that powerful moves that are undeserved in my opinion since it doesn’t or isn’t seen training at all to develop or manage its powers. The only move I give it credit for is Dragon Rage because that is one it practiced over and over and finally got it right.
    More clarification? Please, we need more clarification for nearly every goal main character's goal. How do you become the World's Best Breeder? Or a Pokémon Master? How do you get up to S-rank in the Connoisseur ranking? What do you have to do in order to become a Water Pokémon Master? If anything, Iris' goal is one of the more clearer ones considering that she herself mentioned that once a Trainer is able to connect to a Dragon-types heart (I assume without struggle) and also is able to bring out its full potential in battle she can call herself a Dragon Master. Iris hasn't managed to do that yet. She isn't able to calm Dragon-types down like the village leader can.

    Not really sure how’d she would call Mamoswine back in a Contest Battle? Not to sound completely oblivious or anything I mean just call it back to its Pokeball and that’s it she forfeits. However, it would be interesting to see how that would play out in a Contest setting. Besides, unlike Iris, Dawn raised it since it was a Swinub so it being a powerhouse isn’t that bad of a situation compared to Iris randomly catching Dragonite.
    What? Why should their be any problems for her to call back her Mamoswine in a Contest Battle? Give me one good reason to why that should be any problem, naturally the same rules applies here as they do for a regular Pokémon battle. Recall your Pokémon into its Pokéball and you lose. That's an obvious option. We might not have seen it in yet, but why shouldn't it be possible?

    Dawn did in fact have it since a Swinub. However, how much training did you see Dawn do with Swinub? I don't recall seeing Swinub in any battle except that one against the Psyducks, which it even lost, and still it evolved into a Piloswine. And just a couple of episodes after, Piloswine evolved into Mamoswine without any real significant training either. She might as well could have received it from a Mamoswine, since that really wouldn't have made any different to the training she put down on. Saying that she raised it from a Swinub is complete bull. Hell, even letting Axew evolve would've been more justified that Axew actually has went through some actual training and actually has participated in battles, but it'd still be completel bull due to the fact that Axew hasn't trained nearly enough to deserve an evolution.

    Those facts and experiences ARE relevant because Dawn can give sound advice instead of just blowing hot air at Iris. She did experience a similar situation so her talking to Iris isn’t a complete waste of time. Like May cheering her up through the Wallace Cup Arc, it seems since Trip and Iris owned this tournament they had to make Dawn do something useful even if it was from the sidelines so to speak.
    No, they AREN'T relevant to our discussion of justification in battle which was the thing I was discussing about. Of course Dawn can give Iris advice, that makes perfect sense since she did go through the same thing, so? I don't care, it's perfectly fine with me. Have I claimed anything different? I just don't recall saying anything negative about it, all I'm telling you is that it has nothing to do with our original discussion. Dawn may give Iris advice, that's fine.

    Look the training in the woods thing was just an example instead of firing attacks off in the middle of the city…
    I realized that, but it doesn't matter where or how Iris would try to train with Dragonite since I'm sure it would've refused listening either way. Why would it? As long as it doesn't encounter a powerful Pokémon it surely won't care.

    Like the Tag Battle tournament in DP, Paul was in the woods with his Pokemon training Chimchar that is all I’m saying. Trainers are supposed to bring out the best in their Pokemon by working together as a team and getting a better connection with each other to work in sync.
    It's kinda funny how you're comparing two completely different situations, you seem to have a habbit of doing that. Yes. It's natural for Pokémon and Trainers wanting to train, but the fact is that when Chimchar was training with Paul Chimchar was actually being obediant, which Dragonite isn't. Therefore Paul was able to train with it without any struggles. Iris can't do that because Dragonite won't even listen to a single command she gives.

    Instead of leaving it all on the battlefield, a trainer should try and work on that connection whenever possible. You can’t just catch a Pokemon jump right into battle and expect it to listen and then when it doesn’t just shrug your shoulders and wait to get right into another battle hoping for the same results.
    Of course you can't, but I don't recall seeing anyone do that either.

    You can nag about it how much you want, that still won't change the fact that Iris gave it her all in trying to connect to Dragonite, and she didn't even succeed, so what's the problem? Between each battle she tried to talk with it, thinking that it'd be better if the two of them had a private conversation regarding their problems, and when that didn't help she just tried again and let her friends give her advice. Cynthia told her that Dragonite one day would start having confidence in Iris, and that did indeed come true. By letting Dragonite be until the battle with the Kami Trio, Dragonite did finally start to have confidence in Iris once she tried to protect it from Thundurus Thunderbolt/Thunder attack.

    Don't you see? Iris tried to get through to it during the Junior Cup but failed. She desperately tried different methods, but none seemed to work. And the thing that is important is that Iris tried. She didn't succeed, but she tried, and that shows how much she cares for her Pokémon.

    She had no plans of capturing Dragonite once she first encountered it, all she wanted was to help a Dragon-type in danger, despite putting herself into a really dangerous situation by her own free will. Then Dragonite was the one who wanted to follow Iris on their journey, it wasn't like Iris asked it to. That only shows that Iris had intention to participate in the Junior Cup with or without Dragonite, but since it didn't go as planned with Dragonite's disobediance she took the opportunity by trying to connect with it when it was put into preassure in the heat of the battle. It didn't work, but she tried.

    It’s like they say the definition of insanity is and that is to try the same action over and over again and hope for different results.
    What. Definition of insanity?
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    [QUOTE=Chiplet;4525052]

    Yes, I compare different situations but in the end if you look at the criteria of those different matches you will see the similarities in which trainer and Pokemon are caught in a situation similar to Iris and Dragonite.

    I don't know what to say to make myself any clearer or what it is either of us have left unsaid. I just can't wait til the end of the BW series, to see Iris progress if she does at all especially with Dragonite or to see if she'll possibly take over the Dragon-type gym in Unova.

    Yes insanity, doing over and over again the same "test" and expecting something different. And look at this another example; Gible's Draco Meteor-Ash just kept saying the same thing each episode to focus its Dragon-type powers and then fire. Every time it would hit Piplup until the league where out of nowhere it seemed to master the move. However, one could say it was because close range shots managed to hit the opponent.

    I know Dragonite won't listen and that is why they should be trying to train and work together whenever they can, I don't see why its so difficult for you to see my point but I just don't see the point of going in circles over this.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulisthebest View Post
    Yes, I compare different situations but in the end if you look at the criteria of those different matches you will see the similarities in which trainer and Pokemon are caught in a situation similar to Iris and Dragonite.
    Mention one time, please. Comparing a situation where you have an obediant Pokémon to a situation where you have a disobediant Pokémon are to separate things. You can't compare the two, for the fact is that Dragonite, unlike the others obediant Pokémon, refuses to obey Iris completely. The obediant Pokémon aren't like that, thus are there two completely different situations and no similarities whatosever.

    Yes insanity, doing over and over again the same "test" and expecting something different. And look at this another example; Gible's Draco Meteor-Ash just kept saying the same thing each episode to focus its Dragon-type powers and then fire. Every time it would hit Piplup until the league where out of nowhere it seemed to master the move. However, one could say it was because close range shots managed to hit the opponent.
    Iris had different strategies. During the battles all she did was trying to yell at Dragonite in order for it to actually start listening to her, but after each battle, and as I've already mentioned a lot times, she tried speaking to it eye to eye, seeing if she'd be able to get through to it when not being in a battle. Curious to see if Dragonite actually had taken her words to the heart she naturally would try battling with again, hoping that there would be any results, which there weren't. But then, as she finally battled Ash, Dragonite was actually listening to her every command. All her effort seemed to have made some results, but what she didn't realized was that this would only be whenever Dragonite was fighting an opponent which it didn't see as any threat, so technically, it wasn't being completely obediant to her, and all her efforts seemed to have been in vain. She still didn't give up, however. Even after she was out of the tournament she tried to talk with it, but there would still be no results, but that just proves how her priority all along was trying to really get through to Dragonite, and not actually win the tournament. She followed Cynthia's advice of letting it take time, as Cynthia knew that Dragonite one day would get full confidence for Iris. All that was needed was time.

    I know Dragonite won't listen and that is why they should be trying to train and work together whenever they can, I don't see why its so difficult for you to see my point but I just don't see the point of going in circles over this.
    Because, as I've already said, WHY would Dragonite bother listening to Iris during training if it refused to listen to her in battle? She can try how much she want, there still will be no results obviously, because we all know that Dragonite really doesn't care for battling/training as long as it not is against a powerful Pokémon. We've seen the same thing with Dawn, where training with Mamoswine was useless and the end result would be that she had to prove herself in order for it to finally start listening to her, and the same thing applied for Dragonite and Iris.
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanDawn View Post
    Then Cynthia goes to give her advice and constructive criticism to help her to become better from what she did wrong, also giving her moral support just so she doesn't feel too bad to end up giving up.

    I... honestly don't know where you got that idea. She was being faithful to her DP self. When she defeated Paul, she gave him constructive criticism too.
    I honestly don't see how Cynthia's battle and talk with Paul has any similarities to Cynthia and Iris. Mainly because Paul wasn't using an extremely strong and dangerous Pokemon that wouldn't listen to him and rampaged at the turn of a dime, which definitely would have squashed some of the peanut gallery that surrounded the battlefield if that happened. Paul was just being cocky and overconfident; Iris was simply being an idiot with skewed priorities that easily could have resulted in several bystanders getting hurt. So given what happened in her battle against Ash, and considering Iris had absolutely nothing to do with the two wins she scored in the Junior Cup...

    Cynthia: Iris.
    Iris: Cynthia!
    Cynthia: You did well.
    Then this is just all sorts of wrong, because there is not one thing in the entire tournament that Iris did well. As I said, I don't believe Iris should have been lambasted by everyone (Georgia and Burgundy were expected, but they diss everyone and the show makes it clear that we're not supposed to take them seriously no matter how right they are), but when I mean "constructive criticism", I mean it should have been directly addressed that Iris should have forfeited AT LEAST her battle with Ash once Dragonite was on the rampage, and directly tell Iris that she needs to reevaluate her priorities if she wants to be a Dragon Master. She should have been asked why she didn't at least try to recall Dragonite when it was becoming a hazard to more than just its opponent. She's already been told multiple times to work on getting closer to Dragonite and to "give it time"; not much different was said after her defeat by Ash. Other than that, just the same consolation bullshit that everyone gets when they lose a match or something goes heinously wrong with their Pokemon... it's just that this particular situation warranted more than what was given. Dragonite wrecking the stadium and coming dangerously close to getting people caught in the proverbial crossfire is not something that should be completely overlooked and just categorized as "oh, Dragonite's being disobedient again and doesn't trust people, we'll have to work on that".

    I don't really consider her repeated attempts to talk Dragonite into obeying her as trying; even though Dragonite would be just as hard to get through if Iris gave him some routine training outside the tournament, it's at least a much SAFER way of doing so. As it's been said in the thread about whether or not disobedient Pokemon should be disqualified in tournaments, I think it's common sense to expect the contestants in said tournament have taken care of their Pokemon problems on their own time, because a tournament is not meant for getting your Pokemon to respect you: it's for testing your skills against other trainers, assuming you've already done the work to make your Pokemon a worthy contender. When Cynthia said to "give it time", I think Iris should have interpreted that as to hold off on getting through to Dragonite until the tournament was over so she can SPARE the time to get through to her Pokemon. It's not like she doesn't have other Pokemon who could've competed, after all, and I think it's rather unfair of Iris to totally deny them a chance to show off their skills and improve just so she could cruise through the tournament with Dragonite.

    If Iris actually changed up her methods on getting through to Dragonite, then I would give her credit for trying. But you know the saying, how actions speak louder than words? Iris was literally using nothing but words. Whether she was yelling at Dragonite for not listening or desperately begging for him to listen, none of that was making any difference and that much was apparent when she first tried this method. To make progress one should make a note of what doesn't work, and rather than trying to bash your head against that same method thinking it will work eventually, logically one should be trying genuine different approaches. Iris had to use many different approaches to Excadrill, so I have no idea why Iris didn't try something other than blah-blah-blahing at Dragonite in hopes that somehow this would gain Dragonite's trust. It was painfully obvious that Dragonite is far too stubborn and pissed off to be reasoned with through talking, so it annoys me that A) Iris' attempts to get through Dragonite were all the same and all equally ineffective, and that she would dare try to work this shit out during a TOURNAMENT of all things, and B) NO ONE HAS ANY USEFUL ADVICE.

    Seriously, it is possible to tell Iris that maybe she should try something other than bitching at her Dragonite to gain its trust and that she should have been more considerate to the rest of the world by at least TRYING to recall Dragonite once it raged against the stadium rather than its opponent... WITHOUT sounding needlessly harsh or negative or whatever.

    Once again, even though Iris was royally fucking up by daring to use Dragonite for the whole tournament and all the bullshit that happened in their wake, it hardly felt like Iris was getting the criticism she deserved (and needed), hence the show tries to make it out like Dragonite is the main problem here and not Iris, because they focused on the wrong aspect of this trainwreck. It's much like the Excadrill problem; even if Iris blamed herself, it was pretty much a throwaway line, the flashback showed that nothing was truly Iris' fault, except for the fact that she let this drag out for years: the only detail that went by completely ignored. Very analogous to the Junior Cup where the most Iris gets is "wow you can't control your Dragonite for shit" from the characters we aren't supposed to take seriously; otherwise, it's just "oh, give it time/you're not connected very well but that's not your fault just keep doing what you're doing and it'll all work out/YOU DID WELL". No "Iris, try something other than demanding Dragonite to listen to you" or "Iris, maybe you should work with your Dragonite problems on your own time and not use a damn tournament to do it because that can get dicey" or "Iris, what was stopping you from returning Dragonite to its Pokeball when it was clearly out of control and coming dangerously close to threatening the lives of people, did you just care THAT MUCH about winning or what, explain yourself please". Nope, none of that. None of the points that were much more relevant than the fact that omg Dragonite won't listen and doesn't trust people. The latter is a quirk we already knew BEFORE the tournament; I don't think it would have been a stretch to assume Dragonite would not get on well with Iris right away... I'm thinking Iris didn't bother even giving Dragonite a test run before the Junior Cup, seriously. That's just fucking sloppy.

    And yet it goes ignored. It is literally bullshit maximum.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    I honestly don't see how Cynthia's battle and talk with Paul has any similarities to Cynthia and Iris. Mainly because Paul wasn't using an extremely strong and dangerous Pokemon that wouldn't listen to him and rampaged at the turn of a dime, which definitely would have squashed some of the peanut gallery that surrounded the battlefield if that happened. Paul was just being cocky and overconfident; Iris was simply being an idiot with skewed priorities that easily could have resulted in several bystanders getting hurt. So given what happened in her battle against Ash, and considering Iris had absolutely nothing to do with the two wins she scored in the Junior Cup...
    Please don't put words in my mouth. Nowhere in my post did I say that the situations are similar. It was extremely clear that I was referring to Cynthia's actions when addressing both trainers. The bystanders weren't feeling threatened at all. It was part of the battle, if anything. So there isn't any problem in that.

    Then this is just all sorts of wrong, because there is not one thing in the entire tournament that Iris did well.
    I consider trying to be "well". If you don't, then it falls on your opinion, not Cynthia's definition of well as a mentor.

    As I said, I don't believe Iris should have been lambasted by everyone (Georgia and Burgundy were expected, but they diss everyone and the show makes it clear that we're not supposed to take them seriously no matter how right they are),
    No it doesn't make it "clear". They insulted her skills and acted their age for failure. Iris clearly took what they said seriously by how they managed to bring her mood down.

    c

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanDawn View Post
    Please don't put words in my mouth. Nowhere in my post did I say that the situations are similar. It was extremely clear that I was referring to Cynthia's actions when addressing both trainers.
    I don't believe I was putting words in your mouth... my intention was to express that your example was not a good one because the situations were so different that it isn't really appropriate for Cynthia to basically copypasta her advice from one trainer to another.

    The bystanders weren't feeling threatened at all. It was part of the battle, if anything. So there isn't any problem in that.
    I suppose I must have imagined Dawn and Cilan ducking for cover when debris from Dragonite's rampaging was close to raining down on top of them. And I'd argue that this is not at all part of the "battle" when Dragonite's attacks weren't focused on Krookodile at all. It was icing the walls like crazy... y'know, the only thing that separates the audience from the battlefield. Even if they didn't spend time on shots of the audience freaking out, I like to think Dawn and Cilan were not the only ones concerned about how out-of-control and dangerous Dragonite was being.

    The only reason the officials and announcers weren't stopping the battle then and there is because this series is extremely poorly written, and all manners of bullshit that involve Iris are exempt from the usual treatment of fuck-ups by main characters of this caliber.

    I consider trying to be "well". If you don't, then it falls on your opinion, not Cynthia's definition of well as a mentor.
    Thank you for reminding me that my views are only my opinion and not the truth, what would I ever do without people constantly telling me my opinions are opinions since I must have the memory span of a goldfish?

    And again, I find there is a difference between "trying" and ramming your head against the same damn ineffective method expecting it will eventually work. It's pretty easy to bitch and plead at something ad nauseum, in my opinion, so I don't find that Iris tried very well at all, especially considering the stakes in play and her general horrible decision-making of putting Dragonite in this tournament in the first place.

    No it doesn't make it "clear". They insulted her skills and acted their age for failure. Iris clearly took what they said seriously by how they managed to bring her mood down.
    Somehow I don't believe Georgia and Burgundy's totally-true trash-talk was the primary cause of Iris' mood being brought down. At most, it looked more like rubbing salt in the wound, since Iris really didn't feel like giving either of them the time of day... which is not at all different from how she treats them any other time besides the lack of snark. I'm pretty sure Iris was already aware of everything Georgia and Burgundy told her, since this has been an ongoing persisting issue since she caught Dragonite, so it's not like they sparked any sort of epiphany in her.

    Since Georgia and Burgundy were treated mainly as comedy relief fodder in the tournament and exaggerated their negative traits so that we should be inclined to not take them seriously, I don't believe their criticism of Iris was supposed to make the audience think "Hey, I guess they're right, Iris DID fuck up big time here...". I believe the writers wanted us to think "Hey bitches, leave poor Iris alone, she's been through enough!". Seeing as everyone totally glossed over the REAL major mistakes Iris made in that tournament... y'know, just a hunch.
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    This is rather obvious, but nobody mentioned this yet. How Langley made a comment about how "Kairyu won and not her" worries me. Since it started to listen her, Kairyu hasn't won a battle for Iris, and we already know it is not going to have a major battle any time soon(encounters with villainous teams and wild battles don't obviously count). It seems as if they are setting some major victory for the two(I know right? One of the biggest names in the current Best Wishes merchandising getting a victory. What a shock.), which, if I hadn't made my stance towards Kairyu apparent enough, doesn't make me feel optimistic in the slightest.
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    And again, I find there is a difference between "trying" and ramming your head against the same damn ineffective method expecting it will eventually work. It's pretty easy to bitch and plead at something ad nauseum, in my opinion, so I don't find that Iris tried very well at all, especially considering the stakes in play and her general horrible decision-making of putting Dragonite in this tournament in the first place.
    Yeah, Iris, wasn't trying? Considering she was disappointed at its behavior and had a one-on-one with Cynthia prior to her second match shows she was "trying" in my humble opinion. You can say you don't think she tried very well, that's subjective, and in all just, but considering one of the main complaints about Iris is that she doesn't "try" with her Pokemon, seems a bit counter-productive for her not to use Dragonite and use this is a way to get through to it given this show has thrown at us a million times that Pokemon and humans connect by battling.


    Somehow I don't believe Georgia and Burgundy's totally-true trash-talk was the primary cause of Iris' mood being brought down. At most, it looked more like rubbing salt in the wound, since Iris really didn't feel like giving either of them the time of day... which is not at all different from how she treats them any other time besides the lack of snark. I'm pretty sure Iris was already aware of everything Georgia and Burgundy told her, since this has been an ongoing persisting issue since she caught Dragonite, so it's not like they sparked any sort of epiphany in her.
    I think Iris' saddened mood had more to do with her insubordinate Dragonite not listening to what she said given she was elated over it listening to what she said and said stuff like "I'm finally working side-by-side with Drragonite!" her disappointment clearly stemmed from Dragonite not listening rather than the actual loss. Just like her concern for Excadrill in the Clubsplosion came from Montgomery's Throh pretty much killing him, rather than being eliminated. She seemed bothered by Georgia and Burgundy's comments which I'm guessing were toned down in the dub.

    Since Georgia and Burgundy were treated mainly as comedy relief fodder in the tournament and exaggerated their negative traits so that we should be inclined to not take them seriously, I don't believe their criticism of Iris was supposed to make the audience think "Hey, I guess they're right, Iris DID fuck up big time here...". I believe the writers wanted us to think "Hey bitches, leave poor Iris alone, she's been through enough!". Seeing as everyone totally glossed over the REAL major mistakes Iris made in that tournament... y'know, just a hunch.
    I'd be willing to agree Burgundy was treated solely as comedic relief throughout the tournament given she's been treated as a joke pretty much since her debut, but Georgia definitely had some very serious moments throughout the tournament. Explaining that Iris won nothing and that Dragonite was the true victor in every battle, then we have her saying stuff like "She soils the name of Dragon-users everywhere!" and "She better use Dragonite!". Even Iris and Georgia agreed that those wins didn't count. I just think being alongside Burgundy makes Georgia come off as a joke sometimes. Sourgrapesshipping Yeah, the criticism was clearly meant to be taken socially given the prior comments from Georgia and it having a "1-upped" feel. Similar in vain to Ursula, who lost every Contest, saying Dawn only won due to the clock and that was remedied in the last Contest where she just knocked out Ursula. So, yeah, not quite. Then again comedy is subjective, I found serious moments, playing serious music, with a serious tone to be not comedy for Georgia.

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    Future Seeker HumanDawn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    I don't believe I was putting words in your mouth... my intention was to express that your example was not a good one because the situations were so different that it isn't really appropriate for Cynthia to basically copypasta her advice from one trainer to another.
    My point was that Cynthia was just being in character giving advice without being forceful. That's it. There was no reason for anybody to get mad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    I suppose I must have imagined Dawn and Cilan ducking for cover when debris from Dragonite's rampaging was close to raining down on top of them.
    Since they were closer to the battle, I don't know why that's bad. I'd duck too with all those long range attacks. That counts for every battle, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    And I'd argue that this is not at all part of the "battle" when Dragonite's attacks weren't focused on Krookodile at all. It was icing the walls like crazy... y'know, the only thing that separates the audience from the battlefield. Even if they didn't spend time on shots of the audience freaking out, I like to think Dawn and Cilan were not the only ones concerned about how out-of-control and dangerous Dragonite was being.
    When a Pokemon suddenly gets confused, their attacks wouldn't be focused on the opponent. Would that classify as not being part of the battle? Indeed it was. Um, yeah, they were concerned about the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    The only reason the officials and announcers weren't stopping the battle then and there is because this series is extremely poorly written, and all manners of bullshit that involve Iris are exempt from the usual treatment of fuck-ups by main characters of this caliber.
    So if a Pokemon becomes confused, a condition that Pokemon face in battle, then they should stop the battle? That sounds as crappy as when the referee said that one of Ash's Pokemon was officially knocked out just because it went to sleep through Sleep Powder's effect. We have seen many confused Pokemon throughout the entire run of the anime, and they all threw a rage fit like Dragonite's that could potentially hurt people because of how confused they were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    Thank you for reminding me that my views are only my opinion and not the truth, what would I ever do without people constantly telling me my opinions are opinions since I must have the memory span of a goldfish?
    THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT WOULD COMPLETELY CHANGE! You wouldn't be able to do anything in this new world XD. Anyway, yeah, Cynthia is the mentor. Maybe "Perspective" would have been a better word. Thing is, the characters didn't criticize... what there wasn't to criticize on. You brought up good points with your perspective in the given scenario, even though they sound exaggerated. I first thought it would be a big deal, but then thinking it through, it then sounds completely normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    And again, I find there is a difference between "trying" and ramming your head against the same damn ineffective method expecting it will eventually work. It's pretty easy to bitch and plead at something ad nauseum, in my opinion, so I don't find that Iris tried very well at all, especially considering the stakes in play and her general horrible decision-making of putting Dragonite in this tournament in the first place.
    She only tried it, like twice, and made progress at first. I don't see what's the problem with trying again. Isn't that why the expression "Third times the charm!" exists? "Oh if I just try again... Maybe... Just... Maybe... It will work this time!".

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    Somehow I don't believe Georgia and Burgundy's totally-true trash-talk was the primary cause of Iris' mood being brought down.
    It wasn't the only reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    At most, it looked more like rubbing salt in the wound, since Iris really didn't feel like giving either of them the time of day... which is not at all different from how she treats them any other time besides the lack of snark. I'm pretty sure Iris was already aware of everything Georgia and Burgundy told her, since this has been an ongoing persisting issue since she caught Dragonite, so it's not like they sparked any sort of epiphany in her.
    Yeah! Rubbing salt in the wound! ^_^ Wasn't the epiphany Cynthia's job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    Since Georgia and Burgundy were treated mainly as comedy relief fodder in the tournament and exaggerated their negative traits so that we should be inclined to not take them seriously, I don't believe their criticism of Iris was supposed to make the audience think "Hey, I guess they're right, Iris DID fuck up big time here...".
    It made me think that she fucked up big time after she cried, finally lost and got insulted for her failure. So I do believe that it was supposed to make the audience think that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    I believe the writers wanted us to think "Hey bitches, leave poor Iris alone, she's been through enough!". Seeing as everyone totally glossed over the REAL major mistakes Iris made in that tournament... y'know, just a hunch.
    What major mistakes? :P

    I don't know where you came up with that idea. Honestly, if that was their intention, then they would have made Dawn, Cilan and Ash jump on Georgia and Burgundy to make the audience think that they're wrong in saying that Iris failed. There was nothing the writers wrote to happen for us to think such a thing, unless I missed this extremely odd implication that you got.

  11. #566
    Master of Ghosts......... Gengarzilla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    After watching the Junior Cup, I'd have to say that thye're doing way too much with her. I was half expecting her to reveal a full badge case hidden in her hair and sweep the league after that...
    I have claimed the Spell Tag and Kasib Berry, along with Adaptability and Shadow Ball. I have also claimed Gastly.

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  12. #567
    Gonna be a tl;dr Master! Shinneth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Nnngh. I've put this off long enough. Getting this over with now.

    @Gotpika

    I'll just be upfront here and tell you I immensely dislike discussing anything with you, and we've done so way too much already. To minimize my own stress and agitation, I'm keeping my answers to you as concise as possible and leaving, once again, with "agreeing to disagree". And I'll just hope you can respect that. Because the last thing I want is to drag this on.

    You can say you don't think she tried very well, that's subjective, and in all just, but considering one of the main complaints about Iris is that she doesn't "try" with her Pokemon, seems a bit counter-productive for her not to use Dragonite and use this is a way to get through to it given this show has thrown at us a million times that Pokemon and humans connect by battling.
    Wasn't sure if you were accusing me of saying Iris didn't try at all, since not trying very well =/= not trying at all, and wow a subjective point of view how about that. How about everyone stops counterpointing with "well that's YOUR OPINION" since I think I'm making it clear that I'm not forcing my opinions on anyone and not acting like they're solid facts? Regarding trying with Dragonite, as I've said before, a major tournament full of potential collateral damage for a Pokemon like Dragonite is not the place to try getting closer to your Pokemon. It would have been just as well for Iris to use her other Pokemon for the tournament (since they ENCOURAGED switching up per round), and work on connecting with Dragonite after the fact. The way they wrote this out to focus on Dragonite is just terrible, given it's only been on the cast for ONE EPISODE prior to this tournament and I find it rather irresponsible for a trainer to attempt to cruise through the tournament with an unstable and dangerous powerhouse, defeating trainers that we know have worked long and hard with their Pokemon. I don't think that's an unreasonable point of view to have.

    I think Iris' saddened mood had more to do with her insubordinate Dragonite not listening to what she said given she was elated over it listening to what she said and said stuff like "I'm finally working side-by-side with Drragonite!" her disappointment clearly stemmed from Dragonite not listening rather than the actual loss.
    Thanks for telling me something I already know. I was being rather sarcastic with the Georgia and Burgundy statement, for the record.

    Georgia definitely had some very serious moments throughout the tournament. Explaining that Iris won nothing and that Dragonite was the true victor in every battle, then we have her saying stuff like "She soils the name of Dragon-users everywhere!" and "She better use Dragonite!". Even Iris and Georgia agreed that those wins didn't count.
    Even though Georgia is completely and totally correct and SHOULD be taken seriously... all of this shit has been done before. Georgia and her rivalry with Iris has been relatively stagnant since Georgia more or less says the same shit to Iris every single time, and whether Iris takes it to heart or not (which I imagine she did THIS time and not the previous times, and only because Iris actually suffered some consequences this time around), nothing really changes. Georgia's very justified statements didn't drive Iris to try harder with her Dragonite throughout the tournament; she just kept talking to it. I sorta have this hunch that if Georgia was not in this arc to tell Iris these things, she would have come to the same conclusion on her own anyway.

    And now... part two.

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanDawn
    Since they were closer to the battle, I don't know why that's bad. I'd duck too with all those long range attacks. That counts for every battle, though.
    How is it not bad that Dragonite was rampaging so hard that its attacks were coming dangerously close to hurting innocent bystanders? I know this anime is very prone to large explosions and the like, but the most I've ever seen before this are bystanders shielding themselves from the aftershocks of the attacks, which contain no debris whatsoever; just dust and wind.

    So if a Pokemon becomes confused, a condition that Pokemon face in battle, then they should stop the battle?
    ... except Dragonite was not confused. It was not under a status effect; it was simply rampaging like an ill-mannered child because it was hit with a Dragon-type attack and just decided to flip its shit, taking is frustration out on the arena rather than the opponent. Because somebody didn't take the time to train it and give it some anger management courses. This is not at all comparable to a confusion status. When a Pokemon just goes all "Well FUCK THIS AND FUCK ALL OF YOU" and starts tearing up the battlefield and pretty much disregarding the opponent, then it isn't really a battle anymore, and thusly should be ended when that much is made obvious.

    She only tried it, like twice, and made progress at first. I don't see what's the problem with trying again. Isn't that why the expression "Third times the charm!" exists? "Oh if I just try again... Maybe... Just... Maybe... It will work this time!".
    Except Iris has dealt with uncooperative Pokemon before. She didn't win them over that way, and with an extreme case like Dragonite, I don't see why she wouldn't have at least considered another method rather than just talking its ear off. Dragonite's debut episode made it pretty clear that it reacts to action much more than words anyway. And since this a TOURNAMENT and all... I would think one would be more urgent to work out their Pokemon problems before the next round comes along. Especially big problems like Dragonite.

    It wasn't the only reason.
    Knew that already.

    It made me think that she fucked up big time after she cried, finally lost and got insulted for her failure. So I do believe that it was supposed to make the audience think that.
    Poh-tay-toh, poh-tah-toh. I think from simple observation the general audience grasped that Iris fucked up big time, but the PROBLEM is that the show didn't really convey that fact very well in my opinion. Mainly because Georgia has always been antagonistic from the start, therefore the staff intends for us to not side with her most of the time, even though she was the only one in the Junior Cup who had a lick of common sense. The circumstances just made it impossible for me to sympathize with Iris even though the show was REALLY trying to hammer it in that we're supposed to feel sorry for her rather than lambast her for her own stupid-ass mistakes that could have SO EASILY been averted.

    What major mistakes? :P
    You know... not even trying to recall Dragonite after it went batshit and started trashing the arena. That's something I feel Iris really should have been criticized for, because it gives off the implication that Iris cares more about winning a tournament than the safety of everyone else in the tournament. Sure, she was yelling at it to stop, but she's only been doing that the entire tournament with the same result: Dragonite not listening. She could have potentially ended the hazardous trainwreck instantly by recalling it, realizing it's for the best that she forfeits the tournament because she realizes getting Dragonite under control is much more important than winning a battle. But nope, that detail is ENTIRELY glossed over.

    It's very similar to her issue with Excadrill, where normally I think someone would be criticized for dragging out a Pokemon problem for YEARS on end, yet that is the one detail that went by completely ignored in favor of Iris blaming herself for something that wasn't really her fault. Other main cast characters in the past have been harshly criticized for making stupid/short-sighted/selfish decisions in a battle (May and Bulbasaur come to mind immediately, and that was quite MINOR compared to this scenario). But for Iris, instead everyone focuses on the little details that repeatedly get mentioned with very little, if any change, comes from it. Yes, Dragonite is disobedient and dangerous and prone to going crazy. But that's FAR from the only problem Iris had in this arc, yet this is the only detail that gets any attention and/or criticism. It's pretty bullshit, I'd say.

    I don't know where you came up with that idea. Honestly, if that was their intention, then they would have made Dawn, Cilan and Ash jump on Georgia and Burgundy to make the audience think that they're wrong in saying that Iris failed. There was nothing the writers wrote to happen for us to think such a thing, unless I missed this extremely odd implication that you got.
    Georgia and Burgundy were absolutely justified in what they were saying, and for the most part I haven't noticed much in the way of other characters jumping in to defend their friends when their rivals diss them like it was in the days of DP and AG. I'm not saying the writers intended for us to believe they were wrong in what they said, but their antagonistic nature while rubbing salt in the wound of a depressed Iris gives the image that we're supposed to feel bad for Iris much more than agree with the two characters who are notorious for dissing pretty much everybody. Not to say that we're meant to DISAGREE, but to focus less on how right they are and focus more on poor poor Iris without the obvious implication that she brought this on herself and deserves the misery.

    Sorry if my views confound you, but like I keep saying, these are my views. I've never intended to draw people over to agree with me, but I do believe my views are valid ones to have, as well as my criticism. It isn't blind hatred, it's an honest assessment of what I believe was a very poorly-written and poorly-executed plot point for Iris.

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  13. #568
    Christmas Bubble Frog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    I'll just be upfront here and tell you I immensely dislike discussing anything with you, and we've done so way too much already.
    Oh, well just disregard the reply earlier.

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    Registered User Paulisthebest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    This has been something I’ve been taking into consideration about why the writers deal with Iris the way that they do. Now try and keep an open mind when I say this: could it be that because Iris happens to be a “black” character she is given such a big role in the games and the anime? I’m not sure if she is considered African-American or just a darker skinned Asian. Take that with a grain of salt if you’d like.

    I mean based on marketing it would make sense because it extends the audience of Pokemon by having a more diverse cast like the Disney’s Princesses. Could be a reason why Cynthia was the first female Champion to get more girls wanting to play Pokemon.

    Kind of like how Brock was replaced with Tracey because the writers thought that many people wouldn’t like a black character but it was soon changed when they realized that the fans didn’t care they liked Brock.

    So, by putting her in the Gym Leader slot for the final gym and then Champion you’d think it would bring in not only more females by more so of the African American audience.
    Now as far as the anime goes the same can be said but her personliaty is something that even I can’t think of a good reason for.

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    Loves Suicune Dark Hurricane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Don't get me wrong here, I love Iris as much as I love Cilan...but...

    Iris still has lots to learn and she has a while before she becomes a Dragon Master, I'm late commenting on this tread, but I feel she just needs to take time, train and bond better with her Pokemon. It would've been nice for her to stay at the village, or venture on her own for a while after she caught Dragonite, to train, work on her Dragon Master Quest, and bond with all her Pokemon, and then meet back up with Ash and Cilan after a while. And I really want to see her and Cilan battle each other for real again though, and see him evaluate/taste her Pokemon.

    That's just my opinion. I really like her and I personally believe she deserves anything "positive" the writers happen to give her, but they need to work more on her characterization.
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