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  1. #541
    Registered User Reivaxe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Except the previous two battle don't actually portray Kairyu in the same light and give a different reason for his disobedience. There's nothing learned from those two battles.
    What different reason? When was anything stated that contradicts what happened in the last episode?
    Dragonite apparently doesn't yet trust Iris's judgment against Pokemon it sees as a threat (this is just going from what I have heard. Like I said, really want to watch the subs before talking about those 2 latest eps).
    So when facing 2 strong fully evolved ice type Pokemon it does it's own thing.
    Then it faces a mid stage ground/ dark type and is OK with Obeying ... until it suddenly evolves, making Dragonite spin into a rage.

    And she failed, but did that actually cost her anything? No. Were there consequences? No. Not for the first two rounds at least. The impact of the loss is greatly diminished by the two wins she didn't deserve.
    She failed at what exactly?
    Getting into sync with Dragonite? There's no real failing at something that's really just gonna take time to happen, the most she can do is make sure they battle together often enough to give their connection a chance to grow.

    And WHAT consequences are you talking about? Please give me an example of a reasonable "consequence" to her using this tourney as a chance to train/ connect with Dragonite. Are you upset that she made it 2 rounds with Dragonite against Pokemon that Excadrill could beat? Are you upset that Dragonite's not like Charizard and actually wants to win battles on it's own instead of just saying "... Ef Off, I'm taking a nap"? Are you upset that they didn't kick her out of the tourney after the first win?

    What kinda "consequences" did you want besides her not winning the whole tourney? And who cares if she won 2 battles in this tourney with Dragonite? That thing's clearly too strong to be shot down by any of the present trainer Pokemon which is why it had to be spun into an uncontrolled rage to be knocked out.

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    Registered User Chiplet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    From a storyline point of view, it has been ignored, until now. Those wins didn't prompt any change on either character's part or establish any real storyline.
    Right from the start, I disagree. At Iris' part, clear frustration and stubborness was established. Going through all of those battles with Dragonite remaining disobediant really had her frustrated, but she kept on approaching the problem by trying to connect with it in more and more battles. If she had lost in the first battle, it would've been ignored. It'd end up like the case with Excadrill. The story between him and Iris was pretty much ignored with us only getting a chance to see Excadrill a couple of times before the issues were solved between them. We probably wouldn't have heard anything more from Dragonite if he had gone out in the first round, due to neither Iris or him being in focus anymore, but instead either Georgia or Dawn would've taken up the spotlight. Here, we got to see the relationship between Dragonite and Iris developing by having her advance further, seeing how Dragonite warms up to her slightly with even letting her command him when he faces a minor opponent.

    Kairyu disobeys Iris out of nowhere for two episodes designed for nothing more than to say, looks more powerful than Arceus with absolutely no consequences because Iris being Iris. Then mysteriously, it goes back to obeying Iris, but then he gets bitchslapped and loses it. Iris is shown to be totally at a loss for what to do, Kairyu and her get their karmic reward for having done no training, no synching, no nothing whatsoever, and only then does it prompt a change. Only there do you have an actual storyline, an actual issue that needs solving, actual reflection from Iris upon her own abilities, about what she lacks to reach her goal.
    Looks more powerful than Arceus? Sheesh, then I guess Mamoswine, who actually proved to be a formidable opponent in its battle against Dragonite, should be considered to possess Dialga or Palkia's level of strength, or what? Oh, an no consequences? Alright. Having a disobediant Pokémon is no consequence, I guess. In the first battle, she was happy once the battle was over, but probably just because of Dragonite actually manging to pull through from a hopeless situation, putting Iris in a state of happiness of actually beating Georgia and for Dragonite actually pulling through, despite those Ice-attacks. In the second battle, she was neautral. She won the battle, but once again, Dragonite was not obeying her. If she wasn't bothered by it, she surely would've seen way more happy, but that wasn't the case here. What took priority was Dragonite actually obeying her, which surely would've meant so much more than a victory in the tournament.

    The reason to why I think he obeyed Iris in the battle against Krokorok seemed rather obvious to me, but it maybe wasn't. We saw how Krokorok was completely pummeled. It managed to get like one hit on Dragonite, while he hit Krokorok with lots Flamethrowers and Ice Beams, Krokorok was far from being a threat. So, why not obey its Trainer here when he'll win regardless? He obviously doesn't trust Iris' judgment when they're facing a powerful opponent that also is an Ice-type, but when it's someone like little Krokorok it's fine. It wasn't magic, it was common sense. After all, we saw how it went berserk once Krookodile actually proved to be powerful, and its expression once it evolved implied for it too. He did no longer obey Iris, because he decided that that wasn't going to work with Krookodile with it beig way more powerful now that it had evolved.

    I thought all of it developed to the perfect storyline, with even Cynthia going into it too.

    The loss establish a storyline. The wins served no purpose beyond the writers saying, "Look, Iris got herself a Pokémon that's pretty much more powerful than every other Pokémon on the main cast through no effort, while everyone else has to work hard to get half the results. Look, every other main character is in awe of Iris and her Dragon God Kairyu" and get Iris to the semifinals.
    A loss can establish a storyline, true, but it surely wouldn't if she lost right away, since it'd be completely ignored until the episodes aired with him and Iris would make up. Having Dragonite win, we got to follow him and Iris as Iris struggeled with trying to get through with it while Dragonite decided to follow its own instincts due to him not trusting Iris' judgment. But, once a ''weak'' opponent appeared, then fine, then he could obey her. Maybe then he wouldn't have to hear her nagging again. So, personally I thought it served as a great storyline, while you didn't, which is not so surprising.

    The problem is, there's nothing fueling it. Iris has been sitting on her hands for the past 90 episodes, not doing much of anything that warrants her getting to the semifinals of a tournament like this, let alone winning one. Literally every single other character in that tournament had more reason to get to the semis than Iris, but of course, they're thrown under the bus... again...
    Oh, I think she's been doing plenty for a side-kick character. Battle-wise she surely could use some more development, but who wants to see a character and Pokémon taking up half of an episode's screentime just spamming the same attack until it finally succeeds? Ugh, that sounds like DP...
    No thank you. I prefer seeing her develop character-wise by going through emotionally problems and struggles, and also seeing her love for Pokémon being put up against the wall, testing her limits.

    BTW, I also want to be thrown under the bus. OMG, if Iris is driving it, I'd be all for it! :>>>

    On this issue "leading somewhere", considering Kairyu is using legendaries as chewtoys three episodes from now and the portrayal of Iris throughout the series except for this week's episode, I'm not holding my breath.
    Chewtoys? Wow. And you can tell that by seeing him hit a Landorous with an Ice Beam? OKAY.

    Well, I would, since I've enjoyed her character portrayal throughout the whole series. I can definitely see this developing further, and with the case between her and Dragonite already being really compelling to me, I really can't wait to see more of it. I'm hoping for Drayden to be thrown into it too, naturally.


    I sincerely hope it does, because what we saw in last week's episode, what we didn't see in the previous 91 episodes, was Iris actually being at her most compelling, Iris actually being vulnerable, Iris actually being treated like a main character in a journey Animé.
    I'm glad to hear that from you. It's nice seeing that you actually enjoyed her character for once. :)

    I hope for your sake that she'll continue develop to your liking, as long as she doesn't start being dislikable to me, that is. :P

    It's such a shame that this wasn't her portrayal from the get go, because this would have made BW infinitely better.
    Yeah, she was really good in that last episode, wasn't she? However, I've felt like pretty much every episode focusing on Iris (except for that one with Vanilluxe and the Ferroseed) has made her more likable. I've seen her sharing her personal experience and knowledge, I've seen her helping others out, I've seen signs of her powerful connection to nature and to Dragon-types in general (that surely came from her being raied in the Village of Dragons), I've seen her struggle, I've seen her being determined and stubborn, and I've seen her developed. Now, I don't know if I only see these things because I want to see them, with it in that case being clear bias, but I don't think so. I was neautral to her character in the beginning, but she grew to be my favorite character of all time as time passed, and these factors are the source to making her so lovable in my opinion. I see them, but that doesn't mean that everyone does, but what I do know is that I'm not trying my hardest to really make out positive sides with her character, which I usually do with characters in order to try and refrain from disliking them.

    You can still portray her as a strong trainer but give her flaws, issues, and have those actually cost her matches, strain her relationships, so that she can overcome it and when she gets to the semis or wins a tournament, it doesn't come at the expense of anybody else and it actually means something.
    Oh, definitely. But from the perspective I'm viewing her character, most of those things are stuff that I've seen her go through. Then naturally there's a limit to how much time they'll give her character, with her only being a mere sidekick now than actually sharing the main role with Ash.
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  3. #543
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet View Post
    Alright. Having a disobediant Pokémon is no consequence, I guess.
    When it still gets you to the semifinals of a major tournament? Not really, no... It will have consequences following the loss, because it confronts Iris about her skills, about her approach as a trainer. The loss prompts a change in both characters.

    He obviously doesn't trust Iris' judgment when they're facing a powerful opponent that also is an Ice-type, but when it's someone like little Krokorok it's fine.
    I think you need to rewatch the episodes because that's actually not what the character of Kairyu or his disobedience is actually about. Kairyu seeks only one thing, to prove its power, its superiority. It didn't listen to Iris because she asked him to dodge which, as Dent pointed out, to Kairyu meant that he couldn't endure the attack, it meant admitting weakness. It's the same reason why he doesn't want to use super effective moves against his opponent because he thinks that relying on those make him weak. So it disobeyed Iris because he was too proud and didn't want to lose face, which is completely lost on Iris. Again, Dent points out that the marriage between Kairyu and Iris is the worst one possible in the Langley match. The storyline here is clear, Iris needs to synch up better with Kairyu by adopting a style more appropriate to his personality and his heart, which isn't to be sneaky and dodging and fast, so a less evasive and more offensive style (not an actual stretch since that's pretty much Iris's usual boring battling style) while Kairyu needs to realize that there are more important things than being the most powerful, such as helping and protecting your friends.

    So far so good, but right then and there, the writers drop the ball in that episode. Why? Because they're not following through on that storyline. There's the obstacle, Iris and Kairyu don't see eye to eye, can't communicate and its hurting their chances at winning over opponents that are in synch, that are doing well. The logical conclusion of the battle is one of two things: A- Iris and Kairyu solve their problem through the battle, change their approach to their partnership and work together to overcome a strong opponent or B- the obstacle is not resolve and they lose the battle because of it, prompting them to realize that their flaws actually had a consequence, their loss, and that in his stubborness, Kairyu actually got beaten, and Iris would realize that she needs to change her approach with Kairyu, to adapt and learn how to unlock its true potential. But here, the writers ignored the storyline by having the established flaw have no consequences whatsoever and have Kairyu defeat Tsunbear not through solving the issue, but by simply being portrayed as being so much more powerful than Tsunbear that this issue has no influence on the match, that Kairyu is so much on another level and so much more powerful than everyone, i.e. undeserved glorification. Again, in the second match, the exact same thing happens. Kairyu begrudgingly decides to dodge the first time Iris asks, but when he realizes that that's all she's asking, he starts disobeying her because there has been no development, no change in Iris through the first win, making it for all intents and purposes meaningless. Both battles are written exactly the same and have no impact on the characters, lead to no development.

    Only through the loss do the writers actually have the flaw, the obstacle, the problem is actually acknowledged, has an impact on both character, sets up future events. Only then does it become an actual storyline. The two wins served no purpose whatsoever.

    who wants to see a character and Pokémon taking up half of an episode's screentime just spamming the same attack until it finally succeeds?
    Nobody. That's not what anybody's asking. But it's a little bit jarring to see Iris do next to nothing in the BW0042 to BW084 period (she sparred with Satoshi once briefly indicating that Kibago was still super weak, she used Doryuuzu to destroy some spider webs, got an undeserved victory in the Donamite and get trampled afterwards) all the while everyone else is progressing and getting stronger... only to then have her Kibago magically learn a super powerful new move out of the blue and have a Kairyu conveniently fall in her lap to give her the start of a tournament, only to have her slay two competitors she should have lost to. Simple as that. Had we seen a steady progression in Kibago, had we seen more of what we've seen in last week's episode (i.e. Iris being faced with problems, questioning herself, and changing, growing, learning new tricks) and not have to rely on uberdragon to get her far into a tournament, she would have actually gotten there on her own merit.

    I prefer seeing her develop character-wise by going through emotionally problems and struggles, and also seeing her love for Pokémon being put up against the wall, testing her limits.
    Which we saw for the first time this week.

    And you can tell that by seeing him hit a Landorous with an Ice Beam? OKAY.
    Considering none of the gang's Pokémon were able to do anything like that in their last encounter with a legendary Pokémon and Kairyu's pretty much being portrayed as being on par with Shirona's Gablias, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to use that scene to point out that it's being portrayed as much more powerful than any Pokémon on the main cast. Too reach those kinds of level, Satoshi had to go through hell with Lizardon and work super hard with Goukazaru, but Iris doesn't even need to, it's just handed to her on a silver platter.

    It's nice seeing that you actually enjoyed her character for once. :)
    Honestly, I pretty much felt nothing towards Iris while watching the last episode. The utter amount of BS in her writing since the beginning of BW has rendered this moment, that could've been very compelling, pretty much ineffective. Instead of saying, "Wow, can't wait to see how she'll bounce back" I was more thinking "Finally, she's getting what she deserves," which for a main character is not what I'd like to be thinking.

    sidekick
    I think you can still write a compelling sidekick with less time. The lesser amount of time doesn't explain the bad choices that the writers have made regarding her character.

  4. #544
    Registered User Madame Pika's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Whilst there are a lot of areas that I am disappointed with in Iris, there is one that I'm surprised at how little it's brought up. Iris has a great, fun and instantly recognizable design. Really, I love her design but it isn't half underused. I think that so far we've had a few jokes involving her hair and not a lot else. To see her flying with her hair or being mistaken for a tree was unlikely to ever be cannon but it's disappointing how little has been done.

  5. #545
    Registered User Chiplet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulisthebest View Post
    @Chiplet not trying to go fully Iris discussion here just used it as a slight illustration of the point I was trying to get across. Anyway, saying that you don't feel like you deserved to win and actually handing over the match to the person that truly did are two different things, just saying.
    I realized that you were using it as an illustration, but that doesn't change the fact that I still thought that you accused Iris something of something that was completely untrue. And how are they two separate things really? Why should Iris hand over her victory when the battle between Mamoswine and Dragonite still were on equal odds, if not an advantage for Dawn? Dragonite's disobediance didn't affect Dawn nor Mamoswine directly, more than giving them an advantage of winning the battle, while Iris was put in a disadvantage since her own Pokémon didn't listen to her. We saw how while Iris was struggling, Dawn still did her best at trying to win, and she was able to hit Dragonite with lots of attacks due it not listening to Iris. It's already clear that a Pokémon is at its strongest when it co-operates with its Trainer, so why should Iris hand over the victory when she was the one who was put at a huge disadvantage? As long as Dawn wasn't affected by Dragonite's disobediance in a way that'd decrease her chances of winning, I don't see why Iris should hand over her victory to her.

    I hope this is a fitting thread to post this at. Since Karmazov didn't post a link to a relevant thread, I wasn't too sure where to post this since this is more about justice in battle than Iris' character.
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  6. #546
    Registered User Paulisthebest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    @Chiplet

    Look at it like this, it seemed the entire tournament Iris wanted Dragonite to obey her commands which was obvious from her constant nagging at it not listening to her which is expected.

    I'd say the best evidence in my case to support the fact that Iris wanted to use Dragonite to win the whole thing; her match with Ash.

    Think about it, at first she was excited that Dragonite seemed to be listening to her but overall if you ask me the only reason that Dragonite was "choosing" to do what Iris said was probably because it didn't see Krokorok as a threat like an Ice type or an opponent worthy of it testing its strength against.

    Then when it went on a rampage and lost Iris was all mad not because it nearly hurt people in the audience or the trainers on the sidelines but because she lost. Seriously, she has her priorities mixed up. Instead of even trying to recall Dragonite when it went insane she just started whining, crying out its name and so forth without once considering the safety of herself and others.

    So, her reaction to Dragonite losing to me seemed like even if Dragonite didn't listen to her and she still won against Ash and then Trip, she probably would have shrugged her shoulders, taken the trophy and more than likely lost to Alder. I know its a What-if thing I'm stating but still I really feel like she would have taken the tournament in undeserved wins because as Georgia pointed out it was Dragonite who won not her.

    Its obvious she's nowhere near being a Dragon Master, because even though I'm still not 100% aware of what they are I'm sure they know how to control Dragon types along with knowing when to accept defeat or deserved victories with honor.

    And Iris was the one that chose to use Dragonite, she knew from the last match that she couldn't control it. So, she put herself at a disadvantage by her own choosing so I in no way shape or form feel bad for her because she was responsible for putting herself in that situation not Dawn.

  7. #547
    Gonna be a tl;dr Master! Shinneth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    I fully agree with this. Once the writers finally try to give Iris a real problem and some genuine drama to her life, it's all shit that could have been easily avoided if Iris just used common sense and not use a tournament full of potential collateral damage to try and tame her Dragonite, which she knew well was short-tempered and had a reputation for being dangerous before the tournament even started. Especially since it wasn't like Iris was short on other options to use in the tournament - especially one that was not restricted to using the same one Pokemon per round! It's obvious the show was geared to make us want to feel sorry for her by the time she battled Ash, but besides the fact that the situation didn't undo the complete bullshit wins over two recurring characters, Iris was getting advice and moral support from multiple characters (plus Georgia, the only one giving her the treatment she deserved), and yet Iris did nothing but order and yell at Dragonite every time it disobeyed (which you'd think she'd know better after the whole deal with Excadrill).

    What really grinded my gears was how, after Iris proved how screwed up her priorities were by not even trying to return Dragonite to its Pokeball even though it was clearly out of control and dangerous in the Junior Cup semis (which heavily insinuates she cared more about winning the match than anything else), what happens afterwards? She gets praised by Cynthia. I get the angle was probably to make Iris feel better or whatever, but dude, if this was Ash letting a Dragonite wreck the stadium dangerously close to the crowd because he thought he could use the rage to win a battle, he would have gotten so much flak for it no matter how depressed he got over it. Iris had a clear issue of skewed priorities and inability to think of a way to reach through Dragonite other than bitching and whining at it; she deserved none of the praise she got. She did not win a single Junior Cup battle on her own merits, and yet all she got was praise and compliments and moral support. Hell, back in AG May got yelled at by the judges when she tried to force her Bulbasuar to continue a battle when it was in no condition to do so. I'm not asking that everyone should have dogpiled on Iris for her blatant fuck-ups that easily could have been averted, but at the very least some constructive criticism would have been much more helpful here.

    But no, everyone conveniently forgets Iris was on the verge of endangering lives because of her short-sightedness, and she certainly didn't acknowledge as much herself, so all of that gets conveniently overlooked and it is such a pain in the ass to accept. If Iris can overlook serious shit like this when she loses, I'd say it's not a stretch to assume she'd be even less inclined to think over her very poor decision-making had she won and Dragonite's obedience issues likely would have been pushed to the back of her mind until they inevitably became resolved off-screen like most other "problems" Iris goes through in the series.

    It really is a pain seeing all these opportunities being passed up that could've really been beneficial to Iris' character and make her actually seem human for once. They're right there in front of our faces, and they just get ignored in favor of something undeniably more idiotic.

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  8. #548
    Registered User Chiplet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulisthebest View Post
    @Chiplet

    Look at it like this, it seemed the entire tournament Iris wanted Dragonite to obey her commands which was obvious from her constant nagging at it not listening to her which is expected.
    Of course. The reason to why she kept using it in battle was because she wanted to try getting through to it.

    I'd say the best evidence in my case to support the fact that Iris wanted to use Dragonite to win the whole thing; her match with Ash.
    I sincereley doubt that Iris cared much for winning when she was using Dragonite, her top priority was surely getting through to it.

    Think about it, at first she was excited that Dragonite seemed to be listening to her but overall if you ask me the only reason that Dragonite was "choosing" to do what Iris said was probably because it didn't see Krokorok as a threat like an Ice type or an opponent worthy of it testing its strength against.
    That's my theory, too. Iris thought that it was obeying - which it in fact did - but she didn't realize that it was just because of Krokorok not seeming to be a real threat like Beartic and Mamoswine were.

    Then when it went on a rampage and lost Iris was all mad not because it nearly hurt people in the audience or the trainers on the sidelines but because she lost. Seriously, she has her priorities mixed up. Instead of even trying to recall Dragonite when it went insane she just started whining, crying out its name and so forth without once considering the safety of herself and others.
    First of all, that battle Iris had against Ash was the first battle in which Dragonite actually became a threat to the people inside the arena, it was the first time it truly became dangerous. She cried for one reason, and it wasn't because Dragonite was going to lose, it was because that after the two of them had worked together in such a great way and they actually seemed to finally have connected after two previously hopeless battles, Dragonite suddenly went back to its old self.

    If Iris cared so much for winning, then how come that she in her battle with Dawn didn't seem to care over the fact that she lost? She was only bothered by how Dragonite still wasn't listening, and frustrated over how it completely ignored her. She even told Dawn that she didn't feel like she had deserved that victory. That pretty much confirms that Iris' top priority when using Dragonite in this tournament was to go get through to it.

    In her first battle against Georgia, she naturally just wanted to test out its new Pokémon, but as it didn't go as planned she had to keep trying.

    Calling Dragonite back would indeed have been a good move, but calling it back when neither the commentators nor the audience seem to especially care it really doesn't seem like a logical move. Alder and refereee didn't care for its rampage much, they still kept on commenting the situation like it was still part of the battle. Not to mention the emotional state Iris was caught up in. I sincerely doubt Iris was crying because she was going to lose, we've never really seen her be especially sad once she has lost a battle, so that makes no sense at all. It was obvious that she cried because once she finally had gotten her hopes for Dragonite, it all went back to the same frustrating situation.

    So, her reaction to Dragonite losing to me seemed like even if Dragonite didn't listen to her and she still won against Ash and then Trip, she probably would have shrugged her shoulders, taken the trophy and more than likely lost to Alder. I know its a What-if thing I'm stating but still I really feel like she would have taken the tournament in undeserved wins because as Georgia pointed out it was Dragonite who won not her.
    I can't tell how much I disagree with this. I've seen the situation from a whole other perspective. If Iris had won that battle against Ash she definitely would've reacted in the same way she did with her battle against Ash, and the same would go for Trip. Why would she be happy about it? The reason to why she was happy after that she had defeated Georgia was because how Dragonite had recovered from being trapped in that ice, being caught up in a really hopeless situation. Once Dragonite finally broke free from the ice, Iris' expression showed that she was overjoyed, because Dragonite wasn't hurt. When Iris after each battle had her private talks with Dragonite she said that she wanted Dragonite to listen to her because she didn't want it to get hurt to all of those Ice-type moves, that's why she wanted it to listen. If her main priority was to win the competition, I sincerely doubt that she would've even bothered trying to talk with it since she was easily winning anyway.

    Its obvious she's nowhere near being a Dragon Master, because even though I'm still not 100% aware of what they are I'm sure they know how to control Dragon types along with knowing when to accept defeat or deserved victories with honor.
    Nowhere near? What animé have you been watching? The whole Dragonite story is definitely not enough to show her skills of as a Dragon Master. We've seen Iris calm two outrageous Dragon-types likes Druddigon and Hydreigon, we've seen her get through to a lonely Deino, AND we've seen how she has desperately been trying to get through to Dragonite, which she in TR arc actually succeeded with. Saying that's she nowhere near her goal is a false accusation considering what we've seen her do.

    And Iris was the one that chose to use Dragonite, she knew from the last match that she couldn't control it. So, she put herself at a disadvantage by her own choosing so I in no way shape or form feel bad for her because she was responsible for putting herself in that situation not Dawn.
    She thought that she would that she would be able to control if after their dialogues after every battle. She did indeed by her own choice put herself in a disadvantage. What is your point?

    I commend her for trying. If she wanted to she could just ignore Dragonite and play with Excadrill and Emolga who both is rather powerful and definitely could've made her come to the same position in the tournament (maybe not Emolga against Ice-types), but she didn't. This tournament was a chance for her to get through to Dragonite, and even though it was a huge risk she still did it.
    Last edited by Chiplet; 27th December 2012 at 05:40 PM.
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    Future Seeker HumanDawn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    What really grinded my gears was how, after Iris proved how screwed up her priorities were by not even trying to return Dragonite to its Pokeball even though it was clearly out of control and dangerous in the Junior Cup semis (which heavily insinuates she cared more about winning the match than anything else), what happens afterwards? She gets praised by Cynthia. Iris had a clear issue of skewed priorities and inability to think of a way to reach through Dragonite other than bitching and whining at it; she deserved none of the praise she got. She did not win a single Junior Cup battle on her own merits, and yet all she got was praise and compliments and moral support. But at the very least some constructive criticism would have been much more helpful here.
    Huh? That's really odd...

    Let me go get what was said after the battle... (English Dub)

    Iris: I can't believe it. Why does it always have to end the same way? ;_;
    Ash: Yeah... It's such a waste of awesome strength and power.
    Iris: I just don't get it.
    Georgia: I was able to get a good look at you, Iris!
    Iris: Hmm...
    Georgia: I saw how bad you are controlling Dragon-types. The most brilliant failure I have ever seen!
    Burgundy: Like a piece of burnt toast!
    Iris: I'm totally exhausted to deal with you two...
    Cilan: It's not that bad...
    Cynthia: Iris.
    Iris: Cynthia!
    Cynthia: You did well.

    Then Cynthia goes to give her advice and constructive criticism to help her to become better from what she did wrong, also giving her moral support just so she doesn't feel too bad to end up giving up.

    I... honestly don't know where you got that idea. She was being faithful to her DP self. When she defeated Paul, she gave him constructive criticism too.
    Last edited by HumanDawn; 27th December 2012 at 04:16 PM.
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  10. #550
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    @Chiplet

    I see where you are coming from and you make some valid points. However, I still stand by my opinions on Iris’ character. Think about it even Cynthia pointed out that Dragonite wasn’t listening to her! Georgia was confused the whole time when Dragonite was “listening” to Iris but Cynthia knew better.

    On that we both can agree on since as I mentioned earlier Dragonite didn’t see a threat like it did with Beartic and Mamoswine so it was probably thinking; “Alright Iris, I’ll give your battle strategy a test run this time…” which consisted of nothing but constant Flamethrower/Ice Beam attacks (since Thunderpunch won’t work on Ground-types) and I seriously don’t know why she didn’t call for Dragon Rush when Ice Beam froze the sunglasses crocodile that would have won her the match…

    Anyway, I really don’t feel that Iris has what it takes to be a Dragon Master yet. Seriously, I know what you mean based on previous examples of skill in calming and understanding Dragon-types. Think about Ash, he wants to be a Pokemon Master and like Iris at times has shown amazing skill and abilities that show he is well on the way to reaching his goal but then does stupid crap that makes you wonder, is this person really wanting to be a Master?

    But Iris’ lack of understanding Dragonite is similar to Dawn when she caught Buizel. It took an E4 member Lucian to show her the flaws in her battling style similar to Cynthia teaching Iris. Both were not in sync with their new Pokemon because these were loners that trained and battled alone without human interaction or trusting them on a good level.

    I don’t really care for audience reactions because I know the show really doesn’t show to much of that unless it’s a main/recurring character watching from the stands. Remember back in DP when Ursula literally traumatized Dawn in the double battle contest where she won her 5th ribbon by using the Diamond Dandruff nightmare from her past? The girl literally fell to her knees screaming and while the camera zoomed in on Ash and Brock talking about it they were the only ones shocked with a horrified look on their faces while the audience members in the background had those still faces that look like smiles, cheers and whatnot I can’t think of one that look disturbed by what was going on.

    Back to the announcers of the Ash/Iris match, I mean yeah Alder and the other guy brought it up but didn’t really seem concerned like “Ok, dragon is going on a rampage and could possibly hurt people…” I mean you’d think they would say something like duck for cover or something like that since Dragonite’s attacks were literally flying blind around the arena.

    I mean Dawn’s Mamoswine vs. James dressed as Jesselina is a good example because Mamoswine like Dragointe was actually listening to Dawn but then Carnivine was dodging its attacks making it frustrated and then it went on a rampage too which resulted in Vine Whip tossing it into the judges booth. It was literally going to crush the judges and it wouldn’t have been that “remarkable”…

    Seriously for me to even have slight remorse for Iris’ failed attempts at using Dragonite in ALL the matches I needed to see more effort from her part. I mean with Excadrill she went out on her own with it for a night to reestablish their connection and bond. If we could have seen some training on the side in-between matches or something then I’d give her credit for trying.

    No, all we get to see is her after a pseudo-victory worried about Dragointe but not doing anything much about it, we see Cynthia and Dawn giving advice but don’t really see Iris putting it into practice.

    Iris really proves that her habit of calling everyone else a little kid especially Ash is wrongly pointed out because it all points back to her. Seriously, if Ash or Georgia did a stunt like this they would not hear the end of it from Iris. But then when Georgia and Burgundy start to taunt her after she lost she talks about how she’s in no mood to deal with them. Wow Iris, you can dish it out but can’t take it :p
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    @Chiplet However, I still stand by my opinions on Iris’ character. Think about it even Cynthia pointed out that Dragonite wasn’t listening to her! Georgia was confused the whole time when Dragonite was “listening” to Iris but Cynthia knew bettter
    Have I said anything different? I think you're misunderstanding. I'm not saying that Dragonite did start to listen to Iris after her hard effort at the Junior Cup, what I'm discussing is Iris' priorities which she had during the Junior Cup. I'm aware of the fact that Dragonite wasn't obeying Iris.

    On that we both can agree on since as I mentioned earlier Dragonite didn’t see a threat like it did with Beartic and Mamoswine so it was probably thinking; “Alright Iris, I’ll give your battle strategy a test run this time…” which consisted of nothing but constant Flamethrower/Ice Beam attacks (since Thunderpunch won’t work on Ground-types) and I seriously don’t know why she didn’t call for Dragon Rush when Ice Beam froze the sunglasses crocodile that would have won her the match…
    What is your point? I can't help but to think that you're drifting away from the topic. What does Iris' battle strategies have to do with this argument? I've already told you before that I'm aware of the fact that Dragonite was not obeying her during the competition, that's not what I'm talking about. Really, what does the fact that Iris never called out for Dragon Rush in her battle against Ash has to do with anything?

    Anyway, I really don’t feel that Iris has what it takes to be a Dragon Master yet. Seriously, I know what you mean based on previous examples of skill in calming and understanding Dragon-types. Think about Ash, he wants to be a Pokemon Master and like Iris at times has shown amazing skill and abilities that show he is well on the way to reaching his goal but then does stupid crap that makes you wonder, is this person really wanting to be a Master?
    Of course Iris doesn't have what it takes to become a Dragon Master yet, but it's not like she nowhere near that destination. I'd say that once she finally has made Axew into a Haxorus, met with all kinds of Dragon-types and is able to communicate with them without any problems whatsoever she's a full fledged Dragon Master, so naturally she still has a long way to go. But that's what makes it fun, isn't it?

    But Iris’ lack of understanding Dragonite is similar to Dawn when she caught Buizel. It took an E4 member Lucian to show her the flaws in her battling style similar to Cynthia teaching Iris. Both were not in sync with their new Pokemon because these were loners that trained and battled alone without human interaction or trusting them on a good level.
    Indeed. The problem with the relationship between Iris and Dragnoite is because of it not having enough confidence for Iris, which is only natural for a Pokémon like that. That's what Cynthia pointed out to Iris. I still don't see the relevance to our argument, however.

    I don’t really care for audience reactions because I know the show really doesn’t show to much of that unless it’s a main/recurring character watching from the stands. Remember back in DP when Ursula literally traumatized Dawn in the double battle contest where she won her 5th ribbon by using the Diamond Dandruff nightmare from her past? The girl literally fell to her knees screaming and while the camera zoomed in on Ash and Brock talking about it they were the only ones shocked with a horrified look on their faces while the audience members in the background had those still faces that look like smiles, cheers and whatnot I can’t think of one that look disturbed by what was going on.
    You're missing my point. In this battle, the only reason Iris would have to call Dragonite back would be because it's becoming a threat to the audience. The chance was that it could've hurt them with it rampaging like crazy. They were never in any danger in Dawn's situation, nor were they when Harley played clip with Max telling Harley about the Tentacool incident. These are two different situations and comparing them really won't help you here.

    During that battle, Iris was caught up in a state of frustration, sadness and disappointment. Who wouldn't be? The Pokémon which we saw her try so hard with getting through to - and which also for a while actually did seem to finally obey her - went completely berserk and ignored her every command. He ignored her completely. Iris was desperately trying to stop it, but it just wouldn't work. It was just before co-operating with her perfectly and all her work seemed to have not been in vain, but then it all breaks down again. It was all completely understandable, and for Iris to hope that she somehow would get through to it despite it not seemingly wanting to listen to her is perfectly understandable. That could be a reason for her not wanting to recall it back into its Pokéball too, she didn't want to give up but just kept on trying.

    I mean Dawn’s Mamoswine vs. James dressed as Jesselina is a good example because Mamoswine like Dragointe was actually listening to Dawn but then Carnivine was dodging its attacks making it frustrated and then it went on a rampage too which resulted in Vine Whip tossing it into the judges booth. It was literally going to crush the judges and it wouldn’t have been that “remarkable”…
    Have you changed sides or am I missing something? This is, as you're saying, an example of a situation that's similiar to the one Iris was put in. Mamoswine was rampaging, and was in fact actually a threat to the judges, but Dawn did still not call it back. She didn't do that for the same reasons as Iris, she didn't want to give up on Mamoswine. She thought she'd be able to wake it up from its rampage and get it back to its senses, but she failed.

    Seriously for me to even have slight remorse for Iris’ failed attempts at using Dragonite in ALL the matches I needed to see more effort from her part. I mean with Excadrill she went out on her own with it for a night to reestablish their connection and bond. If we could have seen some training on the side in-between matches or something then I’d give her credit for trying.
    More effort? Damn, when it was so clear that she really wanted to try and bond with it? Honestly speaking, you're being really unfair to Iris. How can you demand for effort from her in that tournament when she clearly was trying her best to really connect with Dragonite? She encouraged and tried to get the fact that if the two of them would co-operate they'd be a great team through its head, she desperately tried to connect with it in the heat of the battle by yelling, and she took it out of its Pokéball between the battles to have a private conversation with it, hoping that it'd be more open to her when they weren't in a battle. Not to mention that she didn't even succeed, and yet you want to see more effort from her? I can agree with you that if their communcation problems had been solved in the tournament it would've been poorly written, but since it wasn't I really don't see the problem. Iris did a great job trying to get through to it. If anything, she's the one I personally feel has been the most passioned one out all the main characters to really trying to connect with her Pokémon.

    Hell, Iris even decided to ignore Georgia (who she ALWAYS argues with as soon as they both meet) because of her concern for Dragonite.

    Iris really proves that her habit of calling everyone else a little kid especially Ash is wrongly pointed out because it all points back to her.
    No, really? And here I thought that wasn't at all the point.

    That's exactly what I think makes Iris a perfectly relatable character. Without realizing that she herself is a kid too, she just accuses everyone else of being it. That's immature behaviour which also is very common in the real world. That's one of the many charms I see with Iris.

    Seriously, if Ash or Georgia did a stunt like this they would not hear the end of it from Iris.
    If it was Georgia, maybe. Although I'm pretty sure that Iris would've encouraged both of them to really put some effort into it, but naturally she'd throw in a ''kodomo ne'' here and there. That's the thing.
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  12. #552
    Registered User Paulisthebest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet View Post
    It shows that Dragonite’s battle style and Iris’ are not in sync. Dragonite is more of a take a hit and then hit back even harder and Iris is more of the constant switch between attacks and dodging to not cause unnecessary damage.

    I’m just tired of some characters having that atmosphere of being a know-it-all until the viewers see an episode explaining their background and we find out how little they really know.

    I mean what there are only a handful of Unova dragon-types (not counting the legendary ones) so when it comes to another region Dragon we see Iris having a hard time. Not saying that she’d be unable to talk to a Bagon or something I’m just stating that in previous encounters where Iris is successful in “taming” a Dragon type it just so happens to be a Gen V dragon.

    With Axew being the “trinket” Pokemon for Iris I don’t see it evolving anytime soon. Maybe like Togepi, when Ash is in a new region Iris will show up with either a Fraxure and it evolves making her a Dragon Master? Oh well, that’s just open speculation.

    I see your point that she wanted to keep on trying, but still for someone that wants to be a Dragon Master or any kind of powerful/mature trainer you’ve got to know when to (I don’t want to say quit here) go back to the drawing board. I know it’s once again a what-if but someone could have seriously gotten injured even Iris herself because Dragonite was firing blind.

    Not changing sides at all just wanted to link a Dawn experience of a rampaging Pokemon along with Iris’ and for the record I’ve never been a huge Dawn fan either I just wanted to show that she has facts/experience to backup her attempts at giving Iris advice.

    Seriously though, she should have used another Pokemon like Excadrill to battle instead of a rampaging one. And I’m not being unfair I’m just saying Iris should have picked another place instead of the battlefield to try and get Dragonite to obey her. Seriously, her little talks in-between bouts obviously wasn’t enough. Maybe practicing attacks in the woods or something I don’t know anything to establish a better connection.

    If that didn’t work, Iris could have used another Pokémon and worked on from there.

    Was it her concern for Dragonite that made her ignore Georgia or the fact that she knew deep down there was truth behind Georgia’s taunts?
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    Registered User Chiplet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulisthebest View Post
    It shows that Dragonite’s battle style and Iris’ are not in sync. Dragonite is more of a take a hit and then hit back even harder and Iris is more of the constant switch between attacks and dodging to not cause unnecessary damage.
    I don't recall claiming anything different? Is any disobediant Pokémon in sync with its Trainer, isn't that the whole concern with it? Trainer and Pokémon are supposed to adapt to each other in order to achieve full potential. They may have different styles, but that's the whole point with the disobediance, and that is what needs to develop.

    I’m just tired of some characters having that atmosphere of being a know-it-all until the viewers see an episode explaining their background and we find out how little they really know.
    You're claiming that Iris is ignorant? She has several times proved that she, within the limit of Unova, possess a lot knowledge regarding the Pokémon in Unova. When it comes to Dragon-types it strecthes even further than that. She did recognize Dragonite at the museum, after all.

    I mean what there are only a handful of Unova dragon-types (not counting the legendary ones) so when it comes to another region Dragon we see Iris having a hard time. Not saying that she’d be unable to talk to a Bagon or something I’m just stating that in previous encounters where Iris is successful in “taming” a Dragon type it just so happens to be a Gen V dragon.
    What? Excuse, but where have you seen Iris having a hard time recognizing a Dragon-type from another region? I certainly can't recall an incident like that, especially not since she did in fact recognize Dragonite at the museum. Those are just false accusations you're making up there. I'm not saying that she knows about every Dragon-type, but I'm pretty sure that her knowledge is rather wild since she did live in the village of Dragons and did study at an academy which purpose was for Trainers to become a Dragon Master.

    With Axew being the “trinket” Pokemon for Iris I don’t see it evolving anytime soon. Maybe like Togepi, when Ash is in a new region Iris will show up with either a Fraxure and it evolves making her a Dragon Master? Oh well, that’s just open speculation.
    Axew obviously won't evolve for a while, if not ever, since she did catch Dragonite. That's the whole point with her journey, to train and raise Axew, and obviously she still has a long way to go. Does that make her ignorant? Definitely not.

    I see your point that she wanted to keep on trying, but still for someone that wants to be a Dragon Master or any kind of powerful/mature trainer you’ve got to know when to (I don’t want to say quit here) go back to the drawing board. I know it’s once again a what-if but someone could have seriously gotten injured even Iris herself because Dragonite was firing blind.
    Iris is 10 years old. Mature and powerful? That's what she's aiming to be, but let's not forget what she currently is. I'm pretty sure that no one that we know of would've called Dragonite back if they were in that situation, because we didn't see Dawn call her Mamoswine back during her battle with James, did we? You can't blame Iris for doing what she did considering the situation she was in. Besides, since Dragonite never did pose as any real threat since the people around didn't care, why should she? I doubt she took any notice to Georgia and Burgundy bowing down and hiding being put in the state that she was.

    Not changing sides at all just wanted to link a Dawn experience of a rampaging Pokemon along with Iris’ and for the record I’ve never been a huge Dawn fan either I just wanted to show that she has facts/experience to backup her attempts at giving Iris advice.
    I think both Dawn and Iris did perfectly understandable things.

    And now it feels like you're changing topic again. Facts and experience to backup her attempts at giving Iris advice? What? How is that relevant here?

    Seriously though, she should have used another Pokemon like Excadrill to battle instead of a rampaging one. And I’m not being unfair I’m just saying Iris should have picked another place instead of the battlefield to try and get Dragonite to obey her. Seriously, her little talks in-between bouts obviously wasn’t enough. Maybe practicing attacks in the woods or something I don’t know anything to establish a better connection.
    But as you maybe noticed, Dragonite didn't start rampaging for real until its battle with Krookodile. It was disobediant in its previous battles, but it wasn't really rampaging. Iris isn't a psychic, if she knew that was going to happen she obviously would've chosen somebody else so that Dragonite hadn't been hurt.

    The battlefield is obviously the only place that'd work. Practicing attacks in the woods? Do you honestly think that Dragonite will start listening by doing that? I can assure you that it wouldn't even bother, not with the personality it has. What she did was perfectly fine, considering that Dragonite only actually does get down to business once it is battling. After all, once Dragonite and Iris finally did bond with each other it was on the battlefield, against the Kami Trio. So obviously that was indeed the answer. The fact that it didn't work at the Junior Cup isn't Iris' fault, what matters is that she tried her best.

    Was it her concern for Dragonite that made her ignore Georgia or the fact that she knew deep down there was truth behind Georgia’s taunts?
    Obviously it was because of her concern to Dragonite, haha. If it wasn't, she surely would've reacted in a whole different way, but here she was just sulking and being like ''I really don't have time for you two now''. If she had taken Georgia's words seriously we would've at least seen her hesitate for a moment.
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    Drama queen/Bug master PrettyVenomoth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    NO. the writters are being extremley lazy with iris .. they havent even tried to push through this "dragon master" nonsense or develop her charachter past calling ash a kid very single episode. shes got 1 dragon pokemon(excluding dragonite) which is still yet to evolve in over a 100 episodes so they writers suddenly realixe there not developing her so they give her an over-powerd dragonite which she now uses at every possible ooppertunite (despite the fact it wont listen and is a danger to everyone in the stadium) This dragonite doesnt trust humans but for some reason wants to be captured by one 0.o

    either use her properley or dont use her at all.
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    Registered User Paulisthebest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    When you talk about her knowledge of Unova Pokemon including dragons then yes she does possess knowledge but seriously she just gave Ash heck for not knowing certain things even though he’s from an entirely different region (not excluding Trip from doing the same thing), I mean every region there is someone that just rants on Ash for not knowing the name of a city or something like that I mean Dawn did that last season.

    I didn’t say she had a hard time identifying one, I meant controlling or taming one. Besides, she is a bit naïve with the whole “there is no such thing as a bad dragon type!” back in Kanto, Ekans and Koffing explain to Meowth that there is no such thing as a bad Pokemon, they only do bad things because their master is bad. However, that can’t be said for Pokemon who are wild now can it?

    I’m just saying I wish they’d give more clarification as to when a person reaches the title of Dragon Master that’s it period. Axew is hard to measure by because it knows that powerful moves that are undeserved in my opinion since it doesn’t or isn’t seen training at all to develop or manage its powers. The only move I give it credit for is Dragon Rage because that is one it practiced over and over and finally got it right.

    Not really sure how’d she would call Mamoswine back in a Contest Battle? Not to sound completely oblivious or anything I mean just call it back to its Pokeball and that’s it she forfeits. However, it would be interesting to see how that would play out in a Contest setting. Besides, unlike Iris, Dawn raised it since it was a Swinub so it being a powerhouse isn’t that bad of a situation compared to Iris randomly catching Dragonite.

    Those facts and experiences ARE relevant because Dawn can give sound advice instead of just blowing hot air at Iris. She did experience a similar situation so her talking to Iris isn’t a complete waste of time. Like May cheering her up through the Wallace Cup Arc, it seems since Trip and Iris owned this tournament they had to make Dawn do something useful even if it was from the sidelines so to speak.

    Look the training in the woods thing was just an example instead of firing attacks off in the middle of the city…

    Like the Tag Battle tournament in DP, Paul was in the woods with his Pokemon training Chimchar that is all I’m saying. Trainers are supposed to bring out the best in their Pokemon by working together as a team and getting a better connection with each other to work in sync. Instead of leaving it all on the battlefield, a trainer should try and work on that connection whenever possible. You can’t just catch a Pokemon jump right into battle and expect it to listen and then when it doesn’t just shrug your shoulders and wait to get right into another battle hoping for the same results.

    It’s like they say the definition of insanity is and that is to try the same action over and over again and hope for different results.



    @PrettyVenomoth
    Something funny that I like to think about is that Dragonite did want to work with Iris but when she threw her Pokemon and it smacked him right in the fact he then got mad and didn’t want to listen to her haha just a comical take of its disobedience.
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