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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    No one's saying that the flaw ceases to be a flaw. It's that the flaw is not treated as a flaw, and therefore what weight does the flaw hold when it isn't acknowledged in its own canon?
    I'm not sure which flaw we're actually referring to, but in the case of Excadrill, I'm pretty sure that was treated as a flaw. No, it wasn't just Excadrill's problem, it was Iris too, and you are in denial if you say otherwise. You personally may have not said this (I dunno, I never really see your posts) but I know some people have said that Excadrill's issues were solely due to its own issues. Iris wasn't understanding her Pokemon well enough, which is why it secluded itself from her. That was definitely addressed by Iris herself in the show, so I don't see how that isn't a flaw, but whatever.

    Yeah, that was the two-second inconsequential gag that I mentioned earlier. Even if she does get called out on it, nothing changes. It lasts all of a few seconds and then gets completely ignored afterwards. She doesn't have to be called out every time, no, but when she REALLY gives Ash shit that he doesn't deserve (like insulting him for not knowing what Battle Clubs are since they don't exist in his region or holding up his end of a bet), it would be nice to see Iris not get away with that kind of rude behavior all the time. Like I said, main characters before BW who had these kinds of attitudes were often called out on and/or scolded, and rightfully so. Even if Iris isn't malicious, she really overdid the shtick early on in the series and it honestly did nothing but eat up time that could've been used for something more useful and worthwhile.
    Because it takes so long to say "you're such a kid." I don't really care for the phrase either, but I don't see why a big deal is being made out of it. Granted, it did annoy me a little at first, but friends call each other names (playfully) all the time. And the only main character I can think of that has a personality/attitude similar to Iris' is Misty. None of the other main characters, as far as I know, ever called Ash names on a regular basis. Nor do I remember any of them being scolded numerous times either, at least in regards to their personality, besides Brock. But that's getting off-topic.

    I suppose you're new to this, because we've explained dozens of times that we don't want Iris getting the kind of exposure that Dawn had and the amount of screentime she gets is just fine. It's how they use the time that I have a problem with; being a sidekick is no excuse to be lazy with character development, especially when the writers establish a major subplot for Iris and completely and totally half-ass it after dragging it out for half a year with barely any mention of it since it was established.
    The Excadrill thing should've been handled better, I agree, but I don't think Iris' development is that lazy. I honestly can't help but think you are comparing her to Dawn and May, at least subconciously, because none of the sidekicks were ever really developed that much. Iris has no goal besides evolving Axew and becoming a Dragon Master, which it's not clear as to what that even means. Maybe you should explain how exactly Iris should be developed then, because right now, it just seems to me like you are just bitter than she's even on the show in the first place.

    And really, Iris has more than just a "couple" of flaws, IMO. But like I said, most of her flaws aren't even recognized as such in the show even if the viewers can see the flaws plain as day.
    If the viewers can see it plain as day, then why does it take it being called out on for you to be content? Is Iris supposed to be punished before you can relate to her? Also, what exactly is Iris supposed to learn from somebody telling her that calling someone a kid is mean? All that will really happen is that she won't say it anymore. That's not much development at all in my eyes.

    Cilan entertains me; he's doing just fine in his role, so I have no issues with him. Iris, on the other hand, does not entertain me in the least. Her bickering with Ash is repetitive, annoying, and a chore to sit through. That's how I feel about it, anyway. I dislike her personality and while the flaws she has now should in theory help her grow to be more well-rounded by the end, with every passing episode that focuses on her, she only gets more inconsistent, unjustified, and harder to like. And in episodes that don't focus on Iris, she's often standing there in the background and on occasion spouting negative remarks that are usually uncalled for. There've been plenty of opportunities that passed that could've fleshed Iris out a little more in subtle ways, but instead they just leave her there as background fodder. Sure, you can say that's because she's a sidekick, except Cilan tends to be much more involved and proactive even when the episodes don't focus on him.
    First off, her and Ash hardly ever bicker. And I think Cilan is more involved because the writers are making a point that they don't want him to be another Brock. That should be obvious though.

    Yes, I'm sure this'll be torn to bits with "subjective blah blah blah" buit the point is that our disdain for the character and the writers who we believe are mishandling her is not unfounded, it is not blind hatred and rage, it is not a "warped point of view", and it's not wrong. There is no "right" or "wrong" here.
    That's cool and all, but it seems there's some unnecessary double standards between Cilan and Iris, who I feel are meant to fulfill almost the same purposes: entertainment. If you don't find Iris entertaining, great, but it's not fair that one thing can work for Cilan but not Iris.

    Yeah. Problem is, I've honestly tried to think about aspects of Iris that I like - that appeal to me. And you know what? I can't think of one single thing. Not one trait, detail, or reason so far shines out to me and that's not me just focusing on the negative traits. I really cannot see a reason to like her. And for as long as these kinds of debates have transpired, not one person here has even tried bringing up a good point that is unique to her (because saying "she likes her friends" or "she cares about her Pokemon" are not unique good traits; those are prerequisite traits for every main character in this show).
    You aren't thinking hard enough then. Iris enjoys nature and isn't afraid to get her hands dirty. Some people would find that to be an appealing and unique trait (for girls on this show, at least) but I suppose you don't. The writers can't please everybody though, so maybe she will never be likable to some. Oh well.
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  2. #32
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    It is not the co-star/sidekick shift that makes anyone dislike Iris. Even sidekicks in this series normally get better, more sensible development than what we're getting with Iris now. Max was probably the best example of a sidekick with a limited role, but he still had endearing traits along with annoying ones, he did get called out on for hypocrisy, whenever he was wrong, or whenever he misjudged Ash, and Max had to own up for mistakes he made due to his personality flaws. And he wasn't even a trainer. Max had to endure these things well within his duration of 30-40 episodes for certain, and since BW's pace is more akin to Hoenn's/Kanto's than any other series, I'd say it's a fair analogy to make here. So it's not that we were too used to a female co-star that Iris annoys some of us; it's that we were too used to any character in this series, be they star, co-star, sidekick, secondary recurring, or rival, having cohesive character development that both makes sense and helps the viewer understand the character better.
    Exactly. The difference between sidekick and co-star is the number of episodes that focus on them, but that number has ultimately no bearing on what role the writers want the characters to play. Co-star or sidekick, if the writers gear a character towards building a pathos, make an emotional appeal to the audience make them feel as they feel, make them care when they care, which is what they're attempting and failing to do with Iris, they need ultimately to make the character vulnerable and relatable so that he/she's easy to understand and easy to identify with. But in Iris's case, they're trying to make us feel about a character who's already very strong, already very knowledgeable, already possess the skills necessary for the goal she's pursuing and saddled with other characters's problems that she solves by showing them how selfless and caring she is... It's not relatable. I don't identify or feel compelled to care about little Miss can do no wrong.

    All of Iris' focused episodes only highlight how much "better" she is than we initially perceived, which makes her behavior in the early episodes even harder to understand. Any problem Iris has, the fault is eventually shown to be on anyone other than herself, even if she blames herself for it.
    Exactly. That Iris takes the blame on herself in BW036 means in no way that the problem stems from her, since nobody in canon (no, not Dento) portrayed this as a problem that stemmed from Iris. The "I'm sorry I didn't understand that you read my encouragements as carelessness Doryuuzu, cause see, I was too busy cheering you on, caring about your well being and trying to get us to train together again," speech was one of the most glaring example of broken aesop and character derailment that has ever been seen in the anime. The worst part is the rest of the episode is a glaring "Iris was right all along" fest, with Doryuuzu realizing he was wrong and that Iris had cared about him all along and had done nothing wrong. That she was right about getting back to training, using long range attacks and that he shouldn't give up no matter how strong the opponent is. To cap it all off, the writers had Iris call Doryuuzu a kid at the end of the episode because he read her wrong. There was no developpement here for Iris, she did nothing wrong then, she was proven right in the end, and still was portrayed as selflessly taking on the blame because she such a pure radiant saint.

    But I think Iris being so "different" from other main characters is the main problem, since that's the main problem with the BW series in general: it's only being different for the sake of being different. They tried to fix what wasn't broken in previous series and that results in things not making a lot of sense. I could go on forever about that, but for here, the bottom line is that based on what I've seen and read, people don't dislike Iris because she's a side-kick - they dislike her because she's a poorly-conceived, badly-written and badly-developed character.
    Precisely. I made the point above, but the amount of broken aesops that make no sense, the number of ideals that the writers backtracked on when it comes to Iris, and BW in general is staggering, and that there's no rhyme or reason to this just heightens the feelings that Iris is dangerously close to being a Mary Sue, since she can get away with everything that would have been portrayed in a negative light or cost other characters, and that Best Wishes as a whole is just being different for the sake of being different, as opposed to have a cohesive storyline and a point to make.
    Last edited by Hellion; 16th June 2011 at 03:27 PM.

  3. #33
    Gonna be a tl;dr Master! Shinneth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Sheesh. The seventh circle of hell is more of an inviting place than this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Callisto View Post
    I'm not sure which flaw we're actually referring to, but in the case of Excadrill, I'm pretty sure that was treated as a flaw. No, it wasn't just Excadrill's problem, it was Iris too, and you are in denial if you say otherwise.
    Hellion just covered that whole scenario nice and good for me, so refer to that, since that's what I'm going with. If you want to interpret that as being in denial, go right ahead. I'm suited just fine to debating without throwing direct, baseless accusations at people.


    Because it takes so long to say "you're such a kid." I don't really care for the phrase either, but I don't see why a big deal is being made out of it.
    Considering she abused the phrase ad nauseum for a good chunk of the early episodes and throwing in all of the pointless bickering Ash and Iris did that went absolutely nowhere and amounted to nothing, then yeah. The time adds up. Plus, it's not a crime to find it terribly annoying and the opposite of entertaining. This was also a huge chunk of Iris' first impression, which is a pretty big deal for any new character. Making a poor first impression means - for me at least - that it'll be harder to make up for it as the series progresses, especially if they're stunting character development along the way.

    The Excadrill thing should've been handled better, I agree, but I don't think Iris' development is that lazy. I honestly can't help but think you are comparing her to Dawn and May, at least subconciously, because none of the sidekicks were ever really developed that much.
    The Excadrill thing was the epitome of lazy writing. Iris and Emolga was handled lazily. Iris had this Dragon Master goal all along and since the writers were too lazy to ever throw hints/foreshadowing out before it was revealed after thirty episodes in, it felt like it came right out of left field and if it wasn't a well-known fact that Iris is a Dragon-type Gym Leader in the games, then it would've had even more of a random WTF effect. Also, I'm not comparing her to Dawn and May; I've compared her to the typical execution of the development of Ash's traveling partners in general. I just had a huge analogy involving Max in a previous post, did I not? The sidekick thing is not a legitimate excuse to have lazy development; even if they didn't get as much attention or development as the top-tier characters, they still got more than this.

    Maybe you should explain how exactly Iris should be developed then, because right now, it just seems to me like you are just bitter than she's even on the show in the first place.
    Maybe you should look up the dozens of Iris discussions that already transpired where there were some very excellent suggestions made on the original Iris debate thread. I really don't feel obligated to repeat myself over and over again because no one wants to take the time to look at what's already been covered on this subject. Hell, the majority of these questions being asked were already covered at one point or another. And when I'm being personally accused, that doesn't make me feel inclined to go through the trouble when odds are it'll just result in more mud-slinging.

    First off, her and Ash hardly ever bicker. And I think Cilan is more involved because the writers are making a point that they don't want him to be another Brock. That should be obvious though.
    They bicker enough to annoy me; I've watched the show, so this is not something worth nitpicking over. And regardless of the reason, Cilan's still doing more than the bare minimum of his role, so there's no reason why Iris can't do the same.

    That's cool and all, but it seems there's some unnecessary double standards between Cilan and Iris, who I feel are meant to fulfill almost the same purposes: entertainment. If you don't find Iris entertaining, great, but it's not fair that one thing can work for Cilan but not Iris.
    Uh, Cilan and Iris are completely different characters. They're both sidekicks, presumably both are there to entertain, but I'm not getting how it's supposedly wrong or inconceivable that one succeeds in this function while the other fails. Iris' faults don't somehow magically spread and make everyone as unlikable as her. That's not how entertainment works.

    You aren't thinking hard enough then.
    That's not your call to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132
    I guess you werent too much around here when it was revealed how female co-star is going to be replaced with sidekick.I can think of at least 10 fans in here who are annoyed by this.
    You mean were, considering you're talking about stuff that occurred when BW was just beginning over half a year ago. And since I'm not seeing ten people harp on this today, I'm assuming they've accepted it and moved on or whatever, which still makes this a moot point.

    Some people will continue to nitpick how way in which writers executed this was poorly but i dont agree with them with there being a small line between good and bad writing.
    Judging by reactions of fandom at least in here it seems writers got what they intended by having people starting to care more for character.
    That... was not what I was talking about at all. I was talking about how perfection is impossible in this context, not... whatever the hell you're going on about. Also, for someone so insistent on bringing up subjectivity every time I say something sucks, you're being pretty hypocritical with your last line. Reminds me of what Hellion said about how lots of people like Big Macs, but that doesn't magically make it fine dining.

    Iris passive attitude toward training her pokemon was portrayed as flaw since her pokemon slowly develop having unstable team at moment.For problems which are being caused by pokemon trainer is on some part responsible for their actions too like its case with Emolga.
    Yes, that much has been inferred. But the canon itself is not directly treating this as a flaw, still. If the writers are willing to contradict all of the evidence showing Iris being completely negligent with her Excadrill within one episode for no reason, I'm sure they'd be willing to do the same with Emolga down the road.

    Even if everything in Iris story gets treated perfectly if someone doesnt find Iris personality and plots in her story entertaining that cannot be helped.
    You really need to stop saying things I already know and have already said elsewhere.

    Unique traits pertaining to her character is that she is a bit wild liking to climb on trees,tends to be invasive with pokemon being overly hyperactive.

    Another unique trait is that she has her own tempo when developing dragons learning what is best way to train them.
    I think you're missing the point of what I said: I meant unique, likable traits. So she's a jungle girl, invasive with Pokemon, and hyperactive. Yeah, not only are those traits horrendously downplayed most of the time, but Sapphire from Pokemon Special did pretty much all of this better without being horrendously annoying to boot. So nope, that doesn't count for me.

    The "own tempo" thing is something the writers are outrageously failing at maintaining, pretty much to the point where it's backfired, so I don't consider that a likable trait, either.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    Sheesh. The seventh circle of hell is more of an inviting place than this topic.
    No one is forcing you to post here.

    You say everything was covered ... so what's to debate? I'm not telling you to stop posting here, but this is all simply going in circles. This mindless debate .... It's obvious that you won't change your opinion and neither will the others. I'm not gonna stop you, feel free to debate but at one point you'll just have to see that all points have been made. Everyone expressed their opinions, especially you in those long, constructive posts so why bother doing this over and over again?

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Topic. Get back on it now. If you're sick of a thread, report it and state good reasons.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Er, my reason for posting in the first place was pretty straightforward: there's a popular misconception that the "main" reason people don't like Iris and believe the writers are screwing up with her is because she isn't a co-star like Dawn and hence doesn't get the kind of limelight and development that she "should" be getting. My intention was to clear that up, because I especially never had any desire to see Iris be on Dawn's level or be anything even remotely like the previous two girls. If that were to happen, I really believe I'd dislike the character even more than I do already. I'm not the only one here who feels that way, and like I said, presently I haven't really seen anyone save for one person who doesn't like Iris who actually feels that way. Not on this forum, anyway, which is the only place that should matter.

    So, uh, yeah. Just sayin', there are plenty of legitimate reasons to dislike or otherwise be dissatisfied with the way the show is handling Iris.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    Hellion just covered that whole scenario nice and good for me, so refer to that, since that's what I'm going with. If you want to interpret that as being in denial, go right ahead. I'm suited just fine to debating without throwing direct, baseless accusations at people.
    And there is one simple thing people tend to overlook about whole problem with Iris and Excadrill with whole issue not deriving only from pokemon but his trainer as well.

    Iris failed to understand her own pokemon feelings not being able to understand reason which started whole problem in first place and why defeat from Drayden caused Excadrill to cover up in his "own little world".
    By having Iris being ready to admit how this was her own fault in said episode she changed being willing to take up responsibility behind her mistakes.

    Iris had this Dragon Master goal all along and since the writers were too lazy to ever throw hints/foreshadowing out before it was revealed after thirty episodes in, it felt like it came right out of left field and if it wasn't a well-known fact that Iris is a Dragon-type Gym Leader in the games, then it would've had even more of a random WTF effect.
    I thought this was already covered.,Reason is because writers wanted to try something new using approach of keeping audience in suspense by keeping Iris story at first in mystery slowly revealing components of it step by step.

    Maybe you should look up the dozens of Iris discussions that already transpired where there were some very excellent suggestions made on the original Iris debate thread. I really don't feel obligated to repeat myself over and over again because no one wants to take the time to look at what's already been covered on this subject. Hell, the majority of these questions being asked were already covered at one point or another.
    Considering how many of fan suggestions are terrible which would make this show only worse im actually thankful with way writers are handling things in this show.

    There comes up some brilliant suggestion and scenario once in awhile but they are in minority.

    You mean were, considering you're talking about stuff that occurred when BW was just beginning over half a year ago. And since I'm not seeing ten people harp on this today, I'm assuming they've accepted it and moved on or whatever, which still makes this a moot point.
    Not really,they still hang around here,they just dont come very often in anime section.

    That... was not what I was talking about at all. I was talking about how perfection is impossible in this context, not... whatever the hell you're going on about. Also, for someone so insistent on bringing up subjectivity every time I say something sucks, you're being pretty hypocritical with your last line. Reminds me of what Hellion said about how lots of people like Big Macs, but that doesn't magically make it fine dining.
    My point was that while some things were poorly treated about Iris there were also things which were handled well with some credit being deserved to be given to it.

    And i think your missing the point in here.Whether episode about Iris and Excadrill was badly written or not is up to debate,but way in which Excadrill and Iris bonded with writers revealing their past and re-establishing their friendship showing emotions between two characters left impact writers wanted to achieve being to make people care for character they wrote.

    Of course this doesnt apply to everyone but just because they didnt managed to fulfill expectations from everyone doesnt make this episode bad.Trying to claim otherwise would be like insulting people intelligence "being ignorant to recognize good writing"which works for both sides in reality than.

    Yes, that much has been inferred. But the canon itself is not directly treating this as a flaw, still. If the writers are willing to contradict all of the evidence showing Iris being completely negligent with her Excadrill within one episode for no reason, I'm sure they'd be willing to do the same with Emolga down the road.
    And how exactly episode with Excadrill contradicted any evidence about Iris being passive when training pokemon prior to that?

    Difference between Axew,Emolga and Excadrill is in fact of Iris having mole pokemon for much longer than she had those two being her first pokemon wit stronger bond between them being created,Whole point of episode was to have Iris gain thrust and confidence from her pokemon back restoring bond between trainer and pokemon they used to have in past.

    Going by past and Iris active approach toward training Drillbur should tell us how main reason why she is even being passive when training her other pokemon like Emolga is because of having negative experience with Excadrill in past with her character changing because of that.

    By resolving issue with Excadrill writers didnt negated everything they done before because they simply addressed on already established relationship between Iris and pokemon they shared in past with writers creating pathway for Iris character to regain confidence she used to have before being step toward her change becoming again active in training pokmoin.

    You really need to stop saying things I already know and have already said elsewhere.
    Point taken but when people often exclude to point out how they are expressing their own opinion someone might get wrong assumption out of it making it seem like people are trying to pass their thoughts as facts.

    I think you're missing the point of what I said: I meant unique, likable traits. So she's a jungle girl, invasive with Pokemon, and hyperactive. Yeah, not only are those traits horrendously downplayed most of the time, but Sapphire from Pokemon Special did pretty much all of this better without being horrendously annoying to boot. So nope, that doesn't count for me.

    The "own tempo" thing is something the writers are outrageously failing at maintaining, pretty much to the point where it's backfired, so I don't consider that a likable trait, either.
    Fair enough you dont view this as unique and likable traits and i respect that but that doesnt apply to everyone.All things you mentioned of being unoriginal and annoying about Iris i consider to be entertaining and something new we havent seen before.

    Like Callisto nicely summed it up,you cant please everyone.
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    I thought this was already covered.,Reason is because writers wanted to try something new using approach of keeping audience in suspense by keeping Iris story at first in mystery slowly revealing components of it step by step.
    The "new approach" had absolutely nothing of the sort. Being tasked with raising an Axew and coming from a dragon-worshipping village aren't exactly "components" of this goal - otherwise, we'd have to assume that everybody from Iris' village are or will be Dragon Masters, which was not insinuated as far as I recall. Plus, for all this "experience" Iris has, she still only has one Dragon-type in her possession and the rest of her Pokemon aren't Dragon-typed at all. Small things like identifying a Dragonite skeleton and her mission to fully evolve Axew don't really count as "hints" to me, because Iris could've simply just been interested in Dragon-types as a hobby and nothing more. The anime already deviated Iris as a whole by not making her a Gym Leader, so that combined with her total lack of urgency to evolve Axew says nothing about her Dragon Master goal and there were no real signs prior to BW030 that pointed towards said goal. She allegedly already had this aspiration from the beginning (since she said it was a secret way early on), but it was not obvious at all and no one could have suspected before BW030 that she would have this goal. It came out of nowhere, there was no build-up, and I'm not delusional/in denial/missing the point/misunderstanding the show. Swear to god, do not say any of these in response to this.


    Considering how many of fan suggestions are terrible which would make this show only worse im actually thankful with way writers are handling things in this show.

    There comes up some brilliant suggestion and scenario once in awhile but they are in minority.
    Gee, what a subjective thing to say.

    Not really,they still hang around here,they just dont come very often in anime section.
    Then they don't matter. Drop it.

    My point was that while some things were poorly treated about Iris there were also things which were handled well with some credit being deserved to be given to it.

    And i think your missing the point in here.Whether episode about Iris and Excadrill was badly written or not is up to debate,but way in which Excadrill and Iris bonded with writers revealing their past and re-establishing their friendship showing emotions between two characters left impact writers wanted to achieve being to make people care for character they wrote.
    You overlooked the part where I said anyone's free to praise the writing all they want if they truly think it's good. There is nothing wrong with that. What I have a problem with are the people who claim the writing is PERFECT. Like, literally, PERFECT. As in, "there is nothing these writers can do wrong for Iris" because they are PERFECT, i.e. exempt from any and all flaws.

    People who say that are not being honest; they're overcompensating for who-knows-what reason. This is because nobody is perfect. Perfection in this context is impossible. Paul's my favorite character, I am content with how the writers handled him, but I would not say that they were PERFECT and that they could do no wrong with him no matter what. This is the point I was making here. Quality of the writing is up to the eye of the beholder - trust me, I get that - so please stop derailing a very fair wake-up call I was attempting to make.

    I'm also skipping a lot of these questions because they were already answered elsewhere. Several times. I'm not a one-trick pony, people.


    Point taken but when people often exclude to point out how they are expressing their own opinion someone might get wrong assumption out of it making it seem like people are trying to pass their thoughts as facts.
    I have made it very clear - several times - that I am not trying to pass my opinions off as facts. I really don't think I have to add some mandatory "btw this is just my opinion I'm not passing it off as a fact" clause to every other sentence I make. We are human beings, not goldfish. Our long/short-term memory spans should be functional here.

    Fair enough you dont view this as unique and likable traits and i respect that but that doesnt apply to everyone.
    Golly, I had no idea. Say, did I say I was speaking for everyone when I talked about how there isn't a single aspect about Iris that I like? Oh hey, I didn't! Because who would honestly be so narrow-minded, egotistical, and short-sighted to think they can speak for everybody? Not me, believe it or not.

    All things you mentioned of being unoriginal and annoying about Iris i consider to be entertaining and something new we havent seen before.
    Good for you.

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  9. #39
    Christmas Bubble Frog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Yeah, I feel there doing a lot with Iris. I think one of the things about Pokemon that annoyed me was that every girl was treated in a girly girl light. Well, the little girls I babysit who watch Pokemon enjoy Iris. I'm glad they do, because girls don't have to follow the stereotype of Princessy, Girly girl, and damsel in distress thing we see in every cartoon. She reminds me of Kim Possible kinda. Iris can run, jump, and swing and do a lot of things way better Satoshi even though he's the male of the group. In other popular Anime the main girls are usually the lesser treated members of the group compared to the males, weaker, and the ones who are saved all the time, "Sakura", "Orihime","Nami", "Pink Ranger", things like that. Great to see a girl who's not like that. I also feel she has the most character out of Satoshi-Tachi.

    I honestly don't see what's wrong with her "Kodomo Ne", it takes up as much time to say as "Daijoubou", "Kamo", Dento sparkling, Takeshi's flirting, and "Going My Steady". Though I dislike the way Dento gets a special treatment over Iris by fans because he does funny stuff and is voiced by Mamoru Miyano. I don't see anyone complaining at all over Dento taking on Shuuti and calling him a Sue if he possibly beats Shuuti. I don't see anyone complaining over him "taking over Satoshi's rivalry" or "Interacting with Shuuti" when him and Satoshi don't have a "solid rivalry" yet. At that point, I've come to the conclusion Dento is getting special treatment. Even though for a long long long time, I've been telling myself that he isn't and that I shouldn't come off as bias. But, he is getting special treatment to some extent when it comes right down to it.

  10. #40
    pokemon fan 132 pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    The "new approach" had absolutely nothing of the sort. Being tasked with raising an Axew and coming from a dragon-worshipping village aren't exactly "components" of this goal - otherwise, we'd have to assume that everybody from Iris' village are or will be Dragon Masters, which was not insinuated as far as I recall.
    Point of new approach was to keep people in dark by not revealing someones story fully at beginning purposely dragging out with it until goal and problems surrounding Iris character and pokemon got revealed.

    As it can be noticed writers are trying out several new concepts in BW with Ash catching alot of pokemon being one of them,How successful they are with it is another story but i can say i like their bold and new approach they are trying out.

    As saying goes:"No pain,no gain!".

    Plus, for all this "experience" Iris has, she still only has one Dragon-type in her possession and the rest of her Pokemon aren't Dragon-typed at all. Small things like identifying a Dragonite skeleton and her mission to fully evolve Axew don't really count as "hints" to me, because Iris could've simply just been interested in Dragon-types as a hobby and nothing more.
    It came out of nowhere, there was no build-up, and I'm not delusional/in denial/missing the point/misunderstanding the show. Swear to god, do not say any of these in response to this.
    If writers made hints too obvious it would have ruined suspense builder to audience rather wanting people to keep guessing until Iris secret of wanting to become dragon master got revealed in 30th episode.

    As you said there were some hints like Iris coming from dragon village with task of evolving Axew as well having some secret but this was kept along the lines of having ambiguous meaning until "secret"gets revealed late being kept until than as mystery.BW 36th episode gave answer to a lot of unanswered questions about Iris past and connections to Drayden.

    Then they don't matter. Drop it.
    Except they do if their only reason for hating Iris is because she has smaller role than Dawn did.Just because you dont see such complaining in here doesnt make it non existent.

    This reminds me days when Misty was complained about just because she was supporting character making such arguments invalid.

    You overlooked the part where I said anyone's free to praise the writing all they want if they truly think it's good. There is nothing wrong with that. What I have a problem with are the people who claim the writing is PERFECT. Like, literally, PERFECT. As in, "there is nothing these writers can do wrong for Iris" because they are PERFECT, i.e. exempt from any and all flaws.
    To be perfectly honest i didnt noticed anyone claiming how "everything about Iris was treated perfectly".People acknowledged some mistakes that writers did but at same time they disagree how everything so far "was treated poorly" finding way in which writers expand on Iris background and her goal to be done in more or less satisfactory manner.

    Personally i already stated what i view as flaws coming from writers side when it comes to treatment of Iris story but at same time i wont and cannot deny how writers did some pretty good job with character so far as well.

    I have made it very clear - several times - that I am not trying to pass my opinions off as facts. I really don't think I have to add some mandatory "btw this is just my opinion I'm not passing it off as a fact" clause to every other sentence I make. We are human beings, not goldfish. Our long/short-term memory spans should be functional here.
    I wasnt referring to anyone specifically but some people try to do that in here.

    Golly, I had no idea. Say, did I say I was speaking for everyone when I talked about how there isn't a single aspect about Iris that I like? Oh hey, I didn't! Because who would honestly be so narrow-minded, egotistical, and short-sighted to think they can speak for everybody? Not me, believe it or not.
    I never said you did.

  11. #41
    Cuter in real life Iteru's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by gotpika View Post
    Though I dislike the way Dento gets a special treatment over Iris by fans because he does funny stuff and is voiced by Mamoru Miyano. I don't see anyone complaining at all over Dento taking on Shuuti and calling him a Sue if he possibly beats Shuuti. I don't see anyone complaining over him "taking over Satoshi's rivalry" or "Interacting with Shuuti" when him and Satoshi don't have a "solid rivalry" yet. At that point, I've come to the conclusion Dento is getting special treatment. Even though for a long long long time, I've been telling myself that he isn't and that I shouldn't come off as bias. But, he is getting special treatment to some extent when it comes right down to it.
    Dent is not the topic of this thread, and does not have relevancy to the topic either. Please keep on the subject of Iris, otherwise Banned/Wrong Topic infractions shall be handed out.

  12. #42
    Revert & Reverberate Miar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Considering she's already got (I think) more backstory than Ash, and her own mission (to evolve Axew), and bit by bit she's overcome a few obstacles (such as making up with Excadrill), yes. Iris has gained significant development from the girl who would always belittle Ash less than 40 episodes ago to now, and it won't stop there.
    Tsutarja likes this.

  13. #43
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by gotpika View Post
    I'm glad they do, because girls don't have to follow the stereotype of Princessy, Girly girl, and damsel in distress thing we see in every cartoon.
    Except a character can be girly and feminine, and yet also be smart, capable and not a damsel in distress. Neither is mutually exclusive. The opposite is also true, as a character can be tomboyish or more active/outdoorsy, and still be a damsel in distress. Which brings me to my next point...

    Iris can run, jump, and swing and do a lot of things way better Satoshi even though he's the male of the group. In other popular Anime the main girls are usually the lesser treated members of the group compared to the males, weaker, and the ones who are saved all the time, "Sakura", "Orihime","Nami", "Pink Ranger", things like that. Great to see a girl who's not like that.
    Except that if you take out the "girliness", Iris is pretty much exactly like that. In BW002, she watches as Satoshi runs up a tree and jumps to save Pikachu and Kibago; she stood on the sidelines of counteless battles despite the writers having portrayer her as a knowledgeable and capable trainer (as recently seen in BW029, BW030, BW035, BW039, etc.) she's pretty much the medic and emotional component of the trio (read, she's The Chick) and so far, she has really been portrayed as a Faux Action Girl, which only highlights are really not doing enough in terms of developing the character.

    I honestly don't see what's wrong with her "Kodomo Ne"
    That's been addressed before, but Iris's catchphrase is putting down other people, making her seem like she's superior to them, whereas all of the other catchphrases or character quirks really defined the character and were positive. Again, the writers are writing Iris's story with having in mind creating a pathos, an emotional appeal to the audience, and yet they give her characteristics that instead of endearing the audience, instead of making the audience feel invested in the character, is pretty much making the character seem overly critical. If she doesn't feel anything in the face of her "friends's" (and I use the term loosely here) failings and obstacles, why should the audience feel anything in the face of her failings and obstacles. Oh wait... she would need to have some for us to feel something in the first place... There's a disconnect between the writers's intended role for Iris on the show and the decisions they're making, ultimately making her into a character that really doesn't fulfill the role she was created for, and therefore brings next to nothing as far as entertainement value or dramatic quality.

  14. #44
    Christmas Bubble Frog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Except a character can be girly and feminine, and yet also be smart, capable and not a damsel in distress. Neither is mutually exclusive. The opposite is also true, as a character can be tomboyish or more active/outdoorsy, and still be a damsel in distress. Which brings me to my next point...
    Never said they couldn't.

    Except that if you take out the "girliness", Iris is pretty much exactly like that. In BW002, she watches as Satoshi runs up a tree and jumps to save Pikachu and Kibago; she stood on the sidelines of counteless battles despite the writers having portrayer her as a knowledgeable and capable trainer (as recently seen in BW029, BW030, BW035, BW039, etc.) she's pretty much the medic and emotional component of the trio (read, she's The Chick) and so far, she has really been portrayed as a Faux Action Girl, which only highlights are really not doing enough in terms of developing the character.
    Did you really not see Iris scale a tree in order to save Kibago and Pikachu too? Or are you just ignoring that part of things? What the heck was she suppose to be doing in ep 29 with a disobeying Doryuuzu, a weak Kibago, and a lazy Emonga the same question goes for ep 30. Ep 35 was obviously a ep to give Mijumaru and Satoshi focus as well as have Dento and Satoshi catch new Pokemon, she was tending to the sick Pokemon being the only medic on the team. I don't know what you mean in 39 either, no one else had any battle focus either except Satoshi's Dangoro, Pikachu, and Mijumaru helping with the fire and Team Rocket. No one was really doing anything except Satoshi who was attempting to help Archen learn how to fly. Iris brought out Emonga to help, why Dento did the filming.

    That's been addressed before, but Iris's catchphrase is putting down other people, making her seem like she's superior to them, whereas all of the other catchphrases or character quirks really defined the character and were positive. Again, the writers are writing Iris's story with having in mind creating a pathos, an emotional appeal to the audience, and yet they give her characteristics that instead of endearing the audience, instead of making the audience feel invested in the character, is pretty much making the character seem overly critical. If she doesn't feel anything in the face of her "friends's" (and I use the term loosely here) failings and obstacles, why should the audience feel anything in the face of her failings and obstacles. Oh wait... she would need to have some for us to feel something in the first place... There's a disconnect between the writers's intended role for Iris on the show and the decisions they're making, ultimately making her into a character that really doesn't fulfill the role she was created for, and therefore brings next to nothing as far as entertainement value or dramatic quality.
    Iris has said that to three people, Satoshi who is a kid. But, despite her saying that there still very good friends and if that wasn't true she wouldn't have saved Zuruggu and Pikachu from dying or attempt to ask her Doryuuzu to help find Satoshi. Or would have been amazed at Satoshi's skills with helping Pokabu and using Mamepato. She obviously likes him.

    Langley and Shuuti were both being smug assholes so they deserved it. Iris did that partly to help Satoshi get his battle against Shuuti.

    You don't find Iris interesting or really like her character, ok. I thought we discussed that a billion times already. I find Iris relatable in many aspects. You can't really gauge your opinion as the sort of poster child opinion for everyone.

  15. #45
    SHSL Gambler CrackFox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Exactly. The difference between sidekick and co-star is the number of episodes that focus on them, but that number has ultimately no bearing on what role the writers want the characters to play. Co-star or sidekick, if the writers gear a character towards building a pathos, make an emotional appeal to the audience make them feel as they feel, make them care when they care, which is what they're attempting and failing to do with Iris, they need ultimately to make the character vulnerable and relatable so that he/she's easy to understand and easy to identify with. But in Iris's case, they're trying to make us feel about a character who's already very strong, already very knowledgeable, already possess the skills necessary for the goal she's pursuing and saddled with other characters's problems that she solves by showing them how selfless and caring she is... It's not relatable. I don't identify or feel compelled to care about little Miss can do no wrong.
    You've pretty much described the reason I never identified with Dawn, but anyway. Staying on topic. How do you come to the conclusion that Iris is anything more than an acceptable rookie? She's not a great battler, and she lacks the confidence that others did. She's apprehensive to battle, that's been demonstrated a few times. I think you're confusing her personality with her ability. She puts Ash down and she's quite feisty. That doesn't indicate that she's better than anyone, if anything it only indicates how immature she really is.
    She's been shown to be emotional over her treatment of Excadrill. Dent made her realize that she'd failed Excadrill and she promised to be a better trainer to it.

    That is not the scenario of a character who has nothing more to learn. She's arrogant but she's very emotional and childish. She has a lot of developing to do.

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