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  1. #406
    Princess of Sinnoh martianmister's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    The former is a means to achieve the latter.
    Not really, you can be a "Dragon Master" without Kibago...
    I mean you can be a Dragon Master with different kind of Dragon types as well. You don't need to capture or evolve a Kibago for doing that. These two goals are completely different from each other.

    You can't really argue that Iris using Doryuuzu every time she battles or training Emonga for the first time after 50 episodes is her working towards her Dragon Master dream...
    I can argue that, because that's what she said and thinks...

    ...because it helps her in no way connect with Dragon Pokémon and raise the power of Dragon pokémon in battle.
    Dragon Masters are strong pokemon trainers who attunes their heart with Dragon types, right? Considering type effectiveness' role in battles, and Iris' views on it, a trainer with one-type pokemon team had less chance to be a strong trainer. Maybe that's why Iris sees them as an important part of her goal?

    I don't see people criticizing that she's using other Pokémon, I see people criticizing the lack of balance in her Pokémon's usage and the lack of progress in her main goal, saying that the first is, in part, responsible for the latter.
    This whole discussion is started because Iris dared to use Emonga, her most underestimated pokemon...

    Out of 10 trainer battles we've seen Iris involved in since the begining of Best Wishes (spread across 5 episodes... our of close to 75 episodes... that's how rare Iris' battles are to begin with), Iris has used Doryuuzu 7 times, Emonga twice and Kibago twice.
    I don't think these numbers are right. Also, you seems to ignore Kibago's training battles with Zuruggu...to disprove Iris' training him?

    Almost every time there's a problem with a wild pokémon or Team Rocket, it's Doryuuzu that gets featured.
    Not true. In most cases, Doryuuzu and Kibago featured equally. If you're talking about his "digging" job, it's not much different from Pidgeotto or all other flyers' "flying" job...

    If you want to become the world's greatest swordsman and every time you enter a battle you say,.......more focus on the Dragon Master quest we keep hearing about, we see the same stale thing over and over and over.
    Iris' goal don't have to be battle-oriented. From what we seen, her goal looks like a Dragonified version of Takeshi's "Breeder" goal. There is no Dragon-type Tournaments and most of stuff Iris do is bonding with Dragon-types and other Breeder-related cliches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    Misty's similar-but-not-totally-the-same Water Pokemon Master goal was very straightforward and easy to grasp because, well... Misty actually used almost nothing but Water-type Pokemon. Togepi, the exception, wasn't even used for battle. It wouldn't have been wrong for her to, say, catch another type or something, but she was so dedicated to her goal that there was really no questioning that a Water Pokemon Master requires training/bonding/understanding with Water-type Pokemon.
    It's hard to exemplify Kasumi's goal, considering whole "Water Pokemon Master" and Water Pokemon Tournament's coming from nowhere in Johto. For most of Kanto, Kasumi's has no goal other than known as "world's most beautiful girl" and prove her battle abilities to her incompetent sisters.

    The Dragon Master goal - again, evidently not the same as the above entirely but still extremely similar - has had little explained about it and I really don't believe Iris will achieve her Dragon Master goal just by evolving Axew to Haxorus.
    As I said, evolving Kibago and being a Dragon Master is two different goals.

    So yes, like Hellion said, it's not that Iris using non-Dragon-types is completely and totally wrong. It's that she's been using them in major events that can further any of their abilities instead of Axew
    What is the source of that sentiment? Emonga is her most underestimated pokemon. For most of BW, Kibago is the only pokemon that trained by Iris. Battlewise only thing Doryuuzu done is fighting with Langley's Beartic and being used at Don George's Tournaments.

    If a Dragon Master truly involved types other than dragons, I doubt Georgia would be giving Iris this much attention in the first place.
    None of other characters are disagreed with Iris' methods, including Dent.
    Last edited by martianmister; 14th April 2012 at 05:46 PM.
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    6. Haruka/May: 197 episodes
    7. Masato/Max: 192 episodes
    8. Iris: 141 episodes
    9. Dent/Cilan: 138 episodes
    10. Kenji/Tracey: 44 episodes

  2. #407
    Registered User alypkm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    The writes made Iris annoyeing rather than wild, and childish and silly rather than bullying character.

    I still believe if Iris was handled properly we would have got the best female character ever in pokemon.

    they just made her stupid,they thought by making her wanna become a dragon master and with adding Cilan who is the first gym leader and etc. this will make this series similar to the original one,but in fact,they can't make Iris tomboyish like Misty,All what she can say is "you are a Kid" wtf is this !? this isn't even funny,they took the worst thing out of Misty and gave it to Iris,wish is being a sub character,and I bet she will end up the same way.

    and she haven't got any dragon pokemon,and in the movies when she saw zekrom/reshiram she shows no interest at all,I bet the same will go for kyurem.

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    Gonna be a tl;dr Master! Shinneth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    ... This is still happening? Really? Augh.


    I mean you can be a Dragon Master with different kind of Dragon types as well. You don't need to capture or evolve a Kibago for doing that. These two goals are completely different from each other.
    Where are you getting that from? Iris gets her Axew, goes on a journey afterwards to evolve it, says she wants to be a Dragon Master, but somehow the only dragon she currently owns has absolutely nothing to do with her goal? And yet Excadrill and Emolga do pertain to the Dragon Master goal? Sorry, but I'm not buying that and I'm not seeing how that even remotely makes sense.

    This whole discussion is started because Iris dared to use Emonga, her most underestimated pokemon...
    Because it stemmed from Iris saying she was going to work hard to be a proper Dragon Master, and literally in the next episode she's working with one of her non-dragon Pokemon. It's just hilariously contradictory, that's all.

    Out of 10 trainer battles we've seen Iris involved in since the begining of Best Wishes (spread across 5 episodes... our of close to 75 episodes... that's how rare Iris' battles are to begin with), Iris has used Doryuuzu 7 times, Emonga twice and Kibago twice.
    I don't think these numbers are right. Also, you seems to ignore Kibago's training battles with Zuruggu...to disprove Iris' training him?
    If you're going to accuse someone of fabricating their numbers, at least offer your own estimate. Because Hellion's statistics sound pretty damn accurate to me. We've gone over the Axew/Scraggy stuff in the past, too. They tend to be brief and serving comic relief rather than actually furthering each other's abilities. Case in point: did Axew have anything to do with Scraggy learning its new move from a wild Pokemon by observation? Did Scraggy have anything to do with Axew learning Outrage literally out of nowhere? I would say no - if that were the case, I think someone would have confirmed it by now.

    Iris' goal don't have to be battle-oriented.
    Then why is she entering all these battling tournaments? And going as far to win one, no less? Sure, Brock entered tournaments now and then, but not nearly this often, and he certainly never won any. And he was never glorified when he participated, even if he got reasonably far in. If being a Dragon Master has nothing to do with battling, then Iris is seriously derailing her own journey. But battling/training appears to be an integral part to most Pokemon careers in the show based on what we've seen over the years, and having a goal that has nothing to do with battling makes for a large lack of entertainment, which this show is all about. So I believe a Dragon Master goal IS battle-oriented. Not solely battle-oriented, but I think the show insinuates that it's a big part of her goal. Besides, it's not like she's going to evolve her Axew just by sitting there and bonding with it. The species evolves with hard work and battling. And if battling had nothing to do with the goal, I don't believe Iris would have been so willing to take on Georgia as a rival, because with a goal that doesn't involve battling, Iris would have nothing to gain from Georgia whatsoever.


    So yes, like Hellion said, it's not that Iris using non-Dragon-types is completely and totally wrong. It's that she's been using them in major events that can further any of their abilities instead of Axew
    What is the source of that sentiment? Emonga is her most underestimated pokemon. For most of BW, Kibago is the only pokemon that trained by Iris. Battlewise only thing Doryuuzu done is fighting with Langley's Beartic and being used at Don George's Tournaments.
    Oh, don't forget the 100 battles Excadrill had prior to the series, too. And the source of the sentiment is that Iris hardly does anything, much less battling, in the series. But during the rare times she does battle, she's primarily using something other than Axew. Axew needs training the most because it is a baby. And despite that, aside from its bullshit methods of learning a couple of moves, Axew remains to be a baby. Scraggy's even younger than Axew, but that didn't stop Ash from using it in the latest tournament to help make it more powerful. There was nothing preventing Iris from using Axew for the same reason, since, Dragon Master goal or not, evolving Axew IS a short-term goal of hers. Passing up these opportunities to get Axew out of its babby stage is the source of these sentiments.

    If a Dragon Master truly involved types other than dragons, I doubt Georgia would be giving Iris this much attention in the first place.
    None of other characters are disagreed with Iris' methods, including Dent.
    So because they said nothing about her goal, that proves something? No one says anything when Iris is being hypocritical or needlessly rude/condescending (one-off gags notwithstanding), but that doesn't mean Iris is justified in acting that way simply because no one calls her out on it.

    My point here is that all the other Pokemon careers in the series are clearly defined early on so we know what the hell our protagonists are doing. That's kinda important for an ongoing series.

    There is no logical reason to assume the Dragon Master goal involves something that canon has yet to explain to us. I don't think this is a matter of conflicting perceptions at all; like I said, if there really was doubt in a Dragon Master goal involving not battling and not using Dragon-types, I would assume Georgia would move on to crush someone who has a definitive dragon-related goal, because your suggestion indicates that Georgia is truly wasting her time with Iris and won't get anywhere with her own goal this way.

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  4. #409
    Princess of Sinnoh martianmister's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    Where are you getting that from? Iris gets her Axew, goes on a journey afterwards to evolve it, says she wants to be a Dragon Master, but somehow the only dragon she currently owns has absolutely nothing to do with her goal? And yet Excadrill and Emolga do pertain to the Dragon Master goal? Sorry, but I'm not buying that and I'm not seeing how that even remotely makes sense.
    I didn't say that. What I mean is you can use other Dragon-types like Druddigon or Deino too to be a Dragon Master, and these two goals are seperate from each other.

    Because it stemmed from Iris saying she was going to work hard to be a proper Dragon Master, and literally in the next episode she's working with one of her non-dragon Pokemon. It's just hilariously contradictory, that's all.
    Interestingly, she said same thing to Doryuuzu. As I said, it's not contradictory in Iris' eyes.

    We've gone over the Axew/Scraggy stuff in the past, too. They tend to be brief and serving comic relief rather than actually furthering each other's abilities. Case in point: did Axew have anything to do with Scraggy learning its new move from a wild Pokemon by observation? Did Scraggy have anything to do with Axew learning Outrage literally out of nowhere? I would say no - if that were the case, I think someone would have confirmed it by now.
    Whole point of these training battles is making them stronger. It's obvious from the context that they getting better and better with every fight...

    Then why is she entering all these battling tournaments?
    Same reason as Dent and Cabernet?

    Sure, Brock entered tournaments now and then, but not nearly this often
    Because there was no tournaments back then nearly this often. DP has only two, and both Takeshi and Hikari entered it...

    If being a Dragon Master has nothing to do with battling, then Iris is seriously derailing her own journey.
    So, you think her joining to Don Tournaments is indicating Iris' Dragon Master goal, but Emonga and Doryuzu is not a part of that goal?

    Oh, don't forget the 100 battles Excadrill had prior to the series, too.
    Are you seriously counting off-screen battles from Iris' flashback?

    And the source of the sentiment is that Iris hardly does anything, much less battling, in the series.
    I agree with that sentiment. But discarding Doryuzu and Emonga is not solving this problem, just making them obsolote.

    If you're going to accuse someone of fabricating their numbers, at least offer your own estimate.
    But during the rare times she does battle, she's primarily using something other than Axew.
    Let's see:

    Kibago:
    Against Dent's Yanappu (BW09)
    Against Satoshi's Zuruggu (BW17)
    Against Satoshi's Zuruggu (BW20)
    Against Satoshi's Zuruggu (BW29)
    Against Langley's Tsunbear (BW33)
    Against Satoshi's Pikachu (BW38)
    Against Luke's Gobit (BW42)
    Against Satoshi's Zuruggu (BW55)

    Doryuuzu:
    99 off-screen battles (BW33)
    Against Shaga's Ononokus (BW33)
    Against Langley's Tsunbear (BW33)
    Against Langley's Tsunbear (BW33)
    Against Satoshi's Pikachu (BW42)
    Against Cabernet's Futachimaru (BW70/71)
    Against Masaomi's Nageki (BW72)

    Emonga:
    Against Bel's Chaoboo/Chillarmy (BW25)
    Against Yoshihiko's Miruhog (BW40)
    Against Kenyan's Dageki (BW41)
    Against Satoshi's Kurumayu (BW74)

    Axew needs training the most because it is a baby. And despite that, aside from its bullshit methods of learning a couple of moves, Axew remains to be a baby.
    And he gets that. Iris is training him most, out of her pokemon team.

    Scraggy's even younger than Axew, but that didn't stop Ash from using it in the latest tournament to help make it more powerful.
    That doesn't mean anything. Both Dent and Cabernet used their oldest and most powerful pokemons, but no one called them on that.

    There was nothing preventing Iris from using Axew for the same reason, since, Dragon Master goal or not, evolving Axew IS a short-term goal of hers. Passing up these opportunities to get Axew out of its babby stage is the source of these sentiments.
    You don't join tournaments to train your weaker pokemon, you join them to win. In Don Battles she need to use several pokemon, so she used all of them and save Doryuzu for the final. In Donamite she need to choose one pokemon, so she choosed the most powerful one.

    So because they said nothing about her goal, that proves something?
    Dent know about Dragon Masters, and he's the one who helps her with Doryuuzu's problems. And he's the one who started Kibago's training battles. If Iris is wrong in her methods, why he didn't tell her anything about that?

    No one says anything when Iris is being hypocritical or needlessly rude/condescending
    Satoshi said...

    My point here is that all the other Pokemon careers in the series are clearly defined early on so we know what the hell our protagonists are doing. That's kinda important for an ongoing series.
    Arguable...

    There is no logical reason to assume the Dragon Master goal involves something that canon has yet to explain to us.
    There is enough reason from canon:
    She thought that non-Dragon types can help her Dragon Master goal. = Canon
    She wants to capture and use non-Dragon types. = Canon
    2/3 of her current pokemon team is non-Dragon type. = Canon
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    1. Satoshi/Ash Ketchum: 801 episodes
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  5. #410
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    I mean you can be a Dragon Master with different kind of Dragon types as well. You don't need to capture or evolve a Kibago for doing that. These two goals are completely different from each other.
    Yes but you need a Dragon. I don't see any other Dragon than Kibago with Iris. So working with him is the only way for her to reach her goal and she's barely doing anything with that, nor is there any significant growth towards that.

    I can argue that, because that's what she said and thinks...
    What one writer writing one episode had her say as a throwaway line which goes against what the people in charge of general storylines and the Iris focus episodes.

    Dragon Masters are strong pokemon trainers who attunes their heart with Dragon types, right?
    Right. Key word: Dragon.

    Also, you seems to ignore Kibago's training battles with Zuruggu...to disprove Iris' training him?
    I said trainer battles. I didn't count sparring matches, not to say that Iris didn't train him, but rather to point out that those comedic training battles that are meant to be comedic don't actually translate as growth for Kibago since both trainer battles it took part in (Langley and Luke), Kibago was completely out of his League and unable to really do anything until the Outrage fiasco. There's no growth and considering both of Iris' goals (evolving Kibago and becoming a Dragon Master) both have to go through Kibago showing some growth, Kibago and Iris are both complete failures at the moment, and don't really seem to care that they're totally failing. If they don't give a shit, why should I?

    Iris' goal don't have to be battle-oriented.
    The definition of Dragon Master is two folds: attuning their hearts to Dragons and making them more powerful when battling alongside them. The latter part implies a battle-oriented goal, as does the first part to a lesser extent.

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    Gonna be a tl;dr Master! Shinneth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    What I mean is you can use other Dragon-types like Druddigon or Deino too to be a Dragon Master, and these two goals are seperate from each other.
    I'm well aware of that. But does Iris own any dragons other than Axew at this moment? No. So until she gets more dragons, we only have Axew to go by to gage Iris' progress aside from the one-off episodes of Iris bonding with dragons that weren't hers. But again, Iris didn't really progress or learn anything new from any of those experiences because she knew immediately what to do for those dragons and her methods worked for each one with not one single critical fuck-up on Iris' part. The other dragons only served to glorify the abilities Iris already had. The only way we'll see true progression in this goal is if she can ever get Axew past the babby stage without resorting to DEMs to make it stronger. Excadrill and Emolga have nothing to do with Axew's progression whatsoever.

    Because it stemmed from Iris saying she was going to work hard to be a proper Dragon Master, and literally in the next episode she's working with one of her non-dragon Pokemon. It's just hilariously contradictory, that's all.
    Interestingly, she said same thing to Doryuuzu. As I said, it's not contradictory in Iris' eyes.
    Again, throwaway lines from one episode should not speak for what the rest of the series has portrayed for the goal of Dragon Master. If non-dragons truly have anything to do with her Dragon Master goal, wouldn't she have explained why by now? I'm not one who's going to smile and nod for a "because she said so" excuse. By nature Iris is a hypocrite in more ways than one, so I'm not inclined to believe Pokemon like Purrloin or Meowth will actually make her a stronger Dragon Master. Those scenarios make her saying that sound more like a petty excuse to me.

    Not to mention, Dragon Masters with actual merit, such as the Village of Dragons elder and Drayden have never once implied that non-Dragons should be focused on to achieve a Dragon Master goal. And I'm more inclined to buy their "perspective" over Iris'.

    Whole point of these training battles is making them stronger. It's obvious from the context that they getting better and better with every fight...
    So why are all of their sparring matches accomplishing nothing other than a little bit of comic relief? Again, what have these babby vs babby sparrings truly accomplished? Scraggy progressed more by inspiration from a random wild Pokemon than he ever did from Axew, based on the context. And I find it highly unlikely that Scraggy had anything to do with Axew learning Outrage, given how pathetic Axew was in battle during its match against Luke before that King-of-DEMs happened. Once again, if those sparring matches truly had anything to do with the few advancements Scraggy and Axew have made, someone would have said so by now.

    Same reason as Dent and Cabernet?
    What, you mean the rivalry that Iris acts like she couldn't care less about? Not that she even got to battle Georgia anyway. She never once insinuated that she was in the tournament just for the hell of it.

    Because there was no tournaments back then nearly this often. DP has only two, and both Takeshi and Hikari entered it...
    He entered tournaments in AG, too. Contests, even. Besides, less-frequent tournaments doesn't really explain why Brock entered them at all... but this is derailing, so I'll leave it at that.

    So, you think her joining to Don Tournaments is indicating Iris' Dragon Master goal, but Emonga and Doryuzu is not a part of that goal?
    They aren't dragons. Their strength has no bearing on Axew's progress, nor would it for any other dragon Iris might or might not have in the future, and it has no bearing on her dragon-related skills as an aspiring Dragon Master. The first one I would say relates a little to the Dragon Master goal since Axew learned (perfectly) a new move that (in theory) makes it more useful to battle with. The second one tells me Iris only cares about winning, which is why she used her crutch, Excadrill, because there's no way in hell she'd win with just her babby Axew because she's a slouch when it comes to training it. Otherwise, given what happened to Axew in the Don Battle, and given that Iris wants/needs to evolve Axew whether it's tied to her goal or not, I don't see why she WOULDN'T put it in Donamite as well. An aspiring Dragon Master ought to care more about strengthening her dragons than merely winning some dumb tournament.

    Are you seriously counting off-screen battles from Iris' flashback?
    Why not? They happened. They're the reason why Excadrill is as strong as it is presently. They're the reason why, of all Pokemon, Excadrill needs the least amount of focus training-wise, and why some of us say that Iris is not balanced with her three Pokemon because she primarily uses the one that needs the least improvement in situations that could really make a difference for the other two, especially Axew.

    But discarding Doryuzu and Emonga is not solving this problem, just making them obsolote.
    Never said anything about discarding them. Though I agree with what one user said about Iris eventually having to release Excadrill. That thing is just making her life way too easy. But that's for another debate.

    Iris is training him most, out of her pokemon team.
    That doesn't change the issue that I described. And Axew's "training" primarily consists of the babby sparring with Scraggy, or in the case of a Pokemon other than Scraggy, they have to severely weaken their own attacks for Axew's sake. I've honestly not seen a single segment of Axew training that's truly led to anything. Even the Dragon Rage training seemed like a moot point because Axew ultimately learned the move in an entirely different situation with Iris not even there to encourage it.

    That doesn't mean anything. Both Dent and Cabernet used their oldest and most powerful pokemons, but no one called them on that.
    Cilan and Burgundy are terrible examples to use because A) as far as we know, Burgundy has no baby Pokemon to speak of, and B) neither does Cilan. Hell, Crustle gets more action than Pansage anyway, and we all know Stunfisk is just the lulzy Pokemon. Neither of them can be properly compared to Iris' scenario; no one really can except Ash, because he actually does have a baby Pokemon that benefits greatly when he's used in competitions like these. Actually, it really says a lot when Ash, a guy who LOVES to win, chooses a Pokemon he's least likely to win with (and didn't win) because it's for Scraggy's benefit. This tells me that Iris' priorities are screwed all to hell.

    You don't join tournaments to train your weaker pokemon, you join them to win.
    Winning isn't everything, especially for non-League tourneys like this. You can't expect to win them all, and in Ash's case, though he lost, his Scraggy is steadily gaining strength and is one step closer to mastering Focus Blast. What did Iris and Excadrill get out of Donamite? Jack shit, and they lost. There's nothing wrong with using a tournament to strengthen your weaker Pokemon (as long as you don't overdo it the way Paul did in the tag battle); in fact, I can't picture a better way to raise morale for a Pokemon that's the weak link of the team. Sure, you can aim to win, but that shouldn't be the only improtant thing about a tournament.

    Dent know about Dragon Masters, and he's the one who helps her with Doryuuzu's problems. And he's the one who started Kibago's training battles. If Iris is wrong in her methods, why he didn't tell her anything about that?
    Iris is never allowed to be wrong in the show unless it's for comic relief, or the one time the show tried to make her be in the wrong when close examination of the facts show that it's really more Excadrill's fault for being totally unresponsive over a simple misunderstanding. Besides that, I can't recall Cilan ever saying he was a Dragon Connossieur, so I don't believe even he knows all there is to know about Dragon Masters. And I don't expect him to hold Iris' hand along the entire way; she should be able to make her own mistakes and learn from them... if she would ever actually do that.


    Satoshi said...
    A brief "What'd you say?!" or "Oh come on!" and then immediately drops the entire thing, even when Iris continues to call him a kid. Georgia's the only one who follows through with this, but this just derails into bickering arguments that accomplish absolutely nothing, as Iris still embraces that catchphrase of hers even now.

    There is no logical reason to assume the Dragon Master goal involves something that canon has yet to explain to us.
    There is enough reason from canon:
    She thought that non-Dragon types can help her Dragon Master goal. = Canon
    She wants to capture and use non-Dragon types. = Canon
    2/3 of her current pokemon team is non-Dragon type. = Canon
    So the writers of BW are doing a crap job of telling this story. What a shocker. That still doesn't tell me exactly why there should be anything withheld from us about the Dragon Master goal for this long. Iris isn't exactly a character shrouded in mystery anymore. There is no logical reason for her goal to be shrouded with mystery. All this proves is that the writers are sucking at their jobs; it's not like other Dragon Master examples, such as the elder and Drayden, have shown or insinuated that they emphasized on anything other than dragons.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth;[QUOTE
    3928641Iris is never allowed to be wrong in the show unless it's for comic relief, or the one time the show tried to make her be in the wrong when close examination of the facts show that it's really more Excadrill's fault for being totally unresponsive over a simple misunderstanding. Besides that, I can't recall Cilan ever saying he was a Dragon Connossieur, so I don't believe even he knows all there is to know about Dragon Masters. And I don't expect him to hold Iris' hand along the entire way; she should be able to make her own mistakes and learn from them... if she would ever actually do that.
    She never was allowed to be wrong? I didn't know that. I wish people wouldn't make her out to be some sort of perfectionist. She has alot of fault and her not doing more than she could be especially where she could be doing something about it. I think don't know if it's the goal or her pride that's causing it but Langley knows she's full of herself at times. But it probably will be her in the end to push her to where she needs. As far as those little teasing chants goes, since no one cares on the show, I don't find it worse than her not training the already little Pokemon she's got.
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    Registered User Madame Pika's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post


    Let's see:

    Kibago:
    Against Dent's Yanappu (BW09)
    Against Satoshi's Zuruggu (BW17)
    Against Satoshi's Zuruggu (BW20)
    Against Satoshi's Zuruggu (BW29)
    Against Langley's Tsunbear (BW33)
    Against Satoshi's Pikachu (BW38)
    Against Luke's Gobit (BW42)
    Against Satoshi's Zuruggu (BW55)

    Doryuuzu:
    99 off-screen battles (BW33)
    Against Shaga's Ononokus (BW33)
    Against Langley's Tsunbear (BW33)
    Against Langley's Tsunbear (BW33)
    Against Satoshi's Pikachu (BW42)
    Against Cabernet's Futachimaru (BW70/71)
    Against Masaomi's Nageki (BW72)

    Emonga:
    Against Bel's Chaoboo/Chillarmy (BW25)
    Against Yoshihiko's Miruhog (BW40)
    Against Kenyan's Dageki (BW41)
    Against Satoshi's Kurumayu (BW74)
    Looking at this, it seems like the only reason Iris was training Kabigo was bacause Emonga and Doryuzu weren't obeying. The amount of training Kabigo gets really goes down after that and not just a small amount either. I can't remember the episode exactually but from what I'm figuring here, it's thress battles since they started to obey whereas Doryuuzu gets 5. She doesn't battle much and these things are noticable more. Emonga's training does seem abit more fair I will admit when you consider that it's only had three too. However, it shouldn't really be like this. Kabigo needs the training most of all. Plus the training it's been getting hasn't ever been anything that could help it to grow. I'm not saying Iris should be making it battle every pokemon they come across but the bigger the battles it's in the more it will feel like it's battling.

    The thing is that this show has been showing that it's possilbe to train more than one pokemon at the same time since Kanto. This discussion shouldn't really be happening.

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    Gonna be a tl;dr Master! Shinneth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    I wish people wouldn't make her out to be some sort of perfectionist.
    It's an expression, for me. Something to not be taken literally. Has Iris made a mistake or been told that she's wrong in the show before? Sure. But whenever such a thing occurs, how often do those moments actually lead up to anything or have any kind of lasting effect? Pretty much none of them. Iris' bad sense of direction? Shrugged off for the lulz. Having her catchphrase turned around on her? Only by Georgia, only for the "lulz" (because you never really see anyone backing Georgia up). Science vs superstition with Cilan? The lulz. The only time Iris making a mistake actually meant something was the Excadrill thing, which as I said, was overblown when one looks closely at the facts. It was just a simple misunderstanding/miscommunication, as Excadrill never properly showed Iris that they weren't on the same page before/during the battle and then was completely unresponsive to her afterwards despite all of Iris' efforts to get through to him. Iris was never portrayed as being out of line, so anything in that scenario that could have made Iris come off as an imperfect human being was passed up in favor of making Excadrill unresponsive to the point where it was made out to be the fool rather than Iris.

    The annoying part about all this is that there are so many ways to actually make Iris at fault for something based on either her behavior or the cirumstances (or both), but all opportunities have been passed up on. The fact that Iris remains so static in character over 70 episodes in should be indicative of that.

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    Because I can. Caseydia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    I agree. If only Excadrill was still disobedient we might have seen her either deal with Axew and Emong more or catch more Pokemon. I wonder why the writers let him get cured so quickly? I wanted to her more of someone(Langely) speaking about her faults and Cilan giving her more advice for a change.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    Kibago:
    Against Satoshi's Pikachu (BW38)
    Really? We're counting acts for a movie play as real battles now? That's just stretching it.

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    Princess of Sinnoh martianmister's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Gabriel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    Kibago:
    Against Satoshi's Pikachu (BW38)
    Really? We're counting acts for a movie play as real battles now? That's just stretching it.
    Why not? It was played as a real battle in their first try.
    1. Satoshi/Ash Ketchum: 801 episodes
    2. Team Rocket: 736 episodes
    3. Takeshi/Brock: 633 episodes
    4. Kasumi/Misty: 282 episodes
    5. Hikari/Dawn: 201 episodes
    6. Haruka/May: 197 episodes
    7. Masato/Max: 192 episodes
    8. Iris: 141 episodes
    9. Dent/Cilan: 138 episodes
    10. Kenji/Tracey: 44 episodes

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    It's still quite a stretch to call it an official battle just because Pikachu was too rough at first (apparently still used to the act with Pansage), and when it was still just an act for a scene of a movie.

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    Princess of Sinnoh martianmister's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    Again, throwaway lines from one episode should not speak for what the rest of the series has portrayed for the goal of Dragon Master.
    But who's deciding which lines are important and which ones are "throwaway" lines?

    If non-dragons truly have anything to do with her Dragon Master goal, wouldn't she have explained why by now?
    B-but she said so. She said that Purr-

    I'm not one who's going to smile and nod for a "because she said so" excuse. By nature Iris is a hypocrite in more ways than one, so I'm not inclined to believe Pokemon like Purrloin or Meowth will actually make her a stronger Dragon Master. Those scenarios make her saying that sound more like a petty excuse to me.
    "Iris: Story of a liar, hypocrite, delusional, insane so-called Dragon Master."

    Not to mention, Dragon Masters with actual merit, such as the Village of Dragons elder and Drayden have never once implied that non-Dragons should be focused on to achieve a Dragon Master goal. And I'm more inclined to buy their "perspective" over Iris'.
    1. Shaga didn't said anything about Dragon Masters or how to being one.
    2. Elder is not a Dragon Master.
    3. Kibago is Iris' most focused pokemon. Only thing others did is fighting in filler tournament arcs and flying/digging for Iris.

    So why are all of their sparring matches accomplishing nothing other than a little bit of comic relief? Again, what have these babby vs babby sparrings truly accomplished? Scraggy progressed more by inspiration from a random wild Pokemon than he ever did from Axew, based on the context. And I find it highly unlikely that Scraggy had anything to do with Axew learning Outrage, given how pathetic Axew was in battle during its match against Luke before that King-of-DEMs happened. Once again, if those sparring matches truly had anything to do with the few advancements Scraggy and Axew have made, someone would have said so by now...I've honestly not seen a single segment of Axew training that's truly led to anything. Even the Dragon Rage training seemed like a moot point because Axew ultimately learned the move in an entirely different situation with Iris not even there to encourage it.
    Like games, these matches are justifications for Kibago's battle-wise "growth". Whether or not, their being "lulz" or bad storytelling doesn't make them less important or non-canon for Kibago's "growth".

    What, you mean the rivalry that Iris acts like she couldn't care less about?
    What? Their reasons for joining tournaments has nothing to do with their rivalry.

    He entered tournaments in AG, too. Contests, even. Besides, less-frequent tournaments doesn't really explain why Brock entered them at all... but this is derailing, so I'll leave it at that.
    Point is: Both he and Hikari joined these tournaments.

    The second one tells me Iris only cares about winning, which is why she used her crutch, Excadrill, because there's no way in hell she'd win with just her babby Axew because she's a slouch when it comes to training it. Otherwise, given what happened to Axew in the Don Battle, and given that Iris wants/needs to evolve Axew whether it's tied to her goal or not, I don't see why she WOULDN'T put it in Donamite as well. An aspiring Dragon Master ought to care more about strengthening her dragons than merely winning some dumb tournament.
    It takes a long time to raise Dragon types, compared to other pokemon types. You need to be patient with them. Also I can't see anything wrong with Iris' joining dumb tournament. If not for these tournaments, Doryuuzu and Emonga wouldn't get any screentime.

    Cilan and Burgundy are terrible examples to use because...
    Doesn't matter, they still used their oldest pokemons...

    no one really can except Ash, because he actually does have a baby Pokemon that benefits greatly when he's used in competitions like these. Actually, it really says a lot when Ash, a guy who LOVES to win, chooses a Pokemon he's least likely to win with (and didn't win) because it's for Scraggy's benefit. This tells me that Iris' priorities are screwed all to hell.
    Sorry but where does that come from? Satoshi choosed Zuruggu because it is a fighting-type.

    Winning isn't everything, especially for non-League tourneys like this.
    Then what's the point of joining them? She didn't even have a chance in Pokemon League, these tournaments are the only thing she could win.

    Iris is never allowed to be wrong in the show unless it's for comic relief, or the one time the show tried to make her be in the wrong when close examination of the facts show that it's really more Excadrill's fault for being totally unresponsive over a simple misunderstanding.
    It's irrevelant to our discussion. And I completely disagree with Iris' "un-wrongness". She's probably the most flawed member of BW's cast.

    Besides that, I can't recall Cilan ever saying he was a Dragon Connossieur, so I don't believe even he knows all there is to know about Dragon Masters.
    It's too bad, because nearly everything we knows about Dragon Masters is come from him...

    And I don't expect him to hold Iris' hand along the entire way; she should be able to make her own mistakes and learn from them... if she would ever actually do that.
    Dent would help "delusional" persons like Iris.

    So the writers of BW are doing a crap job of telling this story. What a shocker.
    What a good arguement. I will remember this...

    That still doesn't tell me exactly why there should be anything withheld from us about the Dragon Master goal for this long.
    So the writers of BW are doing a crap job of telling this story. What a shocker...

    it's not like other Dragon Master examples, such as the elder and Drayden, have shown or insinuated that they emphasized on anything other than dragons.
    1. Wait, Elder is a Dragon Master? Since when?
    2. Only thing that emphasized by Shaga is Iris' pokemon training abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    What one writer writing one episode had her say as a throwaway line which goes against what the people in charge of general storylines and the Iris focus episodes.
    It's not just one throwaway line. We already seen Iris' interest in catching non-Dragon types many times: Mijumaru, Pokabu, Nyasu, etc.

    I said trainer battles. I didn't count sparring matches...
    They are trainer battles in the same way as other trainer battles. I can't see why they shouldn't count as trainer battles...

    ...not to say that Iris didn't train him, but rather to point out that those comedic training battles that are meant to be comedic don't actually translate as growth for Kibago since both trainer battles it took part in (Langley and Luke), Kibago was completely out of his League and unable to really do anything until the Outrage fiasco. There's no growth and considering both of Iris' goals (evolving Kibago and becoming a Dragon Master) both have to go through Kibago showing some growth, Kibago and Iris are both complete failures at the moment, and don't really seem to care that they're totally failing. If they don't give a shit, why should I?
    Kibago learned Outrage and mastered Dragon Rage. They could be bad storytelling, but that doesn't make them non-canon. Kibago is "growing" in Iris' and writers' eyes.
    Last edited by martianmister; 17th April 2012 at 09:40 PM.
    Bubble Frog likes this.
    1. Satoshi/Ash Ketchum: 801 episodes
    2. Team Rocket: 736 episodes
    3. Takeshi/Brock: 633 episodes
    4. Kasumi/Misty: 282 episodes
    5. Hikari/Dawn: 201 episodes
    6. Haruka/May: 197 episodes
    7. Masato/Max: 192 episodes
    8. Iris: 141 episodes
    9. Dent/Cilan: 138 episodes
    10. Kenji/Tracey: 44 episodes

  15. #420
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    It's not just one throwaway line. We already seen Iris' interest in catching non-Dragon types many times: Mijumaru, Pokabu, Nyasu, etc.
    That in no way means that this is linked to her Dragon Master dream. Iris likes to catch Pokémon she sees as cute and Iris wants to become a Dragon Master are two traits of Iris that have no link with one another.

    Kibago learned Outrage and mastered Dragon Rage.
    Neither was the result of actual training, nor did they actually prompt a change in Kibago or Iris whose personalities are the same as they were on Day 1. And for two characters whose goal it is to help each other to make Kibago evolve, they're doing poorly because the writers don't want to make Kibago lose its mascot status, evolve and be forced into a Pokéball. Instead, they're having Iris use Doryuuzu and Emonga pretty much every time she needs to battle, which doesn't help either Iris or Kibago reach their goal. If a character is on the show to reach a goal and does nothing towards that goal, then why are they there in the first place? Especially since the writers give her this goal of becoming a Dragon Master, but never actually show her struggling at it and pretty much show at every opportunity that she can totally attune her heart to that of Dragons. It's just bad writing.

    Anyway, that's my opinion on it and we've pretty much said everything there is to be said on the subject, so I'll just leave it at that.
    Last edited by Hellion; 18th April 2012 at 05:20 AM.

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