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  1. #211
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zidane View Post
    Dento has said he wants to learn more about Ash's style, to better himself as a Connoisseur...thereby justifying his presence in the group. Dento's Pokemon learning new moves doesn't break the suspension of disbelief, because they were always protrayed as strong Pokemon, unlike Kibago. Plus there's the fact that Dento has actually lost more than he's won as well.
    1. Cilan has said he wanted to learn more about Ash's style. But he hasn't actually LEARNED anything. All he does is show up every other episode saying he is a "____ Connoiseur." You say Iris (and Ash to an extent) haven't learned anything but neither has Cilan.

    2. Yes Cilan's Pokemon are strong. But strength shouldn't have an effect on whether it's believable that they learn a new move. All Pokemon regardless of strength can learn a new move. Yes I agree that Axew learning Outrage of all moves was an eyebrow raiser. However Scraggy another young Pokemon learned Hi Jump Kick, a pretty powerful move. Just like Axew, Scraggy had been shown to be fairly weak most of the time. Yet he also learned a powerful move that he shouldn't know until he was close to evolving (like Axew). However who is getting raged at for learning powerful moves. Not Scraggy.

    3. He has lost. But he hasn't shown any improvement either.

    It's a stark difference than Iris, whose over-glorified background had her undefeated in the past winning a tournament. Then she goes on to win another tournament, showing up the main of the show...primarily using Pokemon not tied to her goal at all, as well as already being shown to handle more powerful Dragon type Pokemon. So all the writers are really doing is bringing her closer, and closer to sue-ville everytime she get's focus.
    Her background isn't all that glorified. Yes it is impressive and it did come as a shock considering how she was handling her Pokemon at the time. But it's not like every few seconds they bring up that she beat 99 trainers in the past. They bring up her being from the Village of Dragons every now and then because area is apparently special and it appears to be rare that those from that village venture out into the outside world. But you know, a gym leader/Connoisseur travelling around is pretty rare too. That gets brought up occasionally too.

    While she has been shown to be able to handle more powerful Dragon-types, we must remember they weren't hers. If she does get another, more powerful dragon type (which SHE SHOULD) whose to say she won't encounter problems with them. Now how fast they get resolved will be up to the writers. I hope they will take the time to develop her and her Pokemon more.

    Iris' presence in the group is less justified given that all she did was bitch at Ash(though I will admit this has died down considerably), complain about how annoying Dento was/is, has all the qualities of a Dragon Master, and her super-special protrayal.
    She doesn't have a super-special portrayal. All she did was get a chance to shine before being relegated to the background while someone else takes center stage.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Well it seems we have some Iris extremists in here.
    As far as what the writers are doing for her, she seems on the right track. She has the right amount of episodes so far and she is very active in the episodes. I just hope that near the the eight gym if she is to be the leader, that she atleast does some battling before tearing Ash apart. I would hate to see that kind of bullcrap.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    I don't know if I could see Iris as the Gym Leader of the eighth Gym. Even in White, she's labeled as a Gym Leader, but she's still technically Drayden's student in that version as well. He just tells her to battle you instead of doing it himself. Even though the writers have gone out of their way to make it look like Iris is a great battler from just playing around with Pokemon, I'm not sure if they'll give her the position of Gym Leader at the end. I'm not sure if I'd want Ash to battle Iris as a Gym Leader either. I could see Drayden saying that he won't battle Ash until he defeats Iris as a way to prove his strength even further, even though that still makes Iris look more like a rival than a traveling companion and it would just make it sound like Iris is still much stronger than she actually should be. Personally, I just see her becoming Drayden's student in order to work towards eventually becoming the Gym Leader after she gets Axew to evolve into a Haxorus at the end of the series. I'm not sure if I even care where she ends up at this point given how I'm debating whether I dislike her more than Misty or not, but I digress.

    I agree that Iris does have decent enough screentime for a side-character with no battle active goal. That wasn't the case at the beginning of the series and I still think that not doing anything significant for a long period of time did more harm than good to her character, but they've been doing a generally better job on that for quite some time now. I still find the writing around her character to be annoyingly bad and considering how I was hopeful about how much personal growth she could gain on her travels with Ash when the series first started, I find that disappointing.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catzeye View Post
    Cilan has said he wanted to learn more about Ash's style. But he hasn't actually LEARNED anything.

    Yes I agree that Axew learning Outrage of all moves was an eyebrow raiser. However Scraggy another young Pokemon learned Hi Jump Kick, a pretty powerful move. Just like Axew, Scraggy had been shown to be fairly weak most of the time. Yet he also learned a powerful move that he shouldn't know until he was close to evolving (like Axew). However who is getting raged at for learning powerful moves. Not Scraggy.
    Cilan might not have improved by leaps, and bounds yet. However, that doesn't really doesn't change the fact that he has a solid, and understandable reason for wanting to travel with Ash.

    Scraggy's learning a new move didn't come at a time where it would have meant the difference between winning, or losing in the semi-finals of a tournament. It also used the move to defeat a wild Pokemon. He was able to learn it due to witnessing another Pokemon use it. Axew's move was learned, and it completely shifted the momentum of a battle against a trained Pokemon. The likes of which it was never displayed to be able to battle against before. It would have served better for her character development had she lost that battle against Luke, using that loss to represent that she needs to spend more time devoting to training her Axew. But instead they opted to have her go on to win the entire tournament, thereby stunting rudimentary character development.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catzeye View Post
    Her background isn't all that glorified. Yes it is impressive and it did come as a shock considering how she was handling her Pokemon at the time. But it's not like every few seconds they bring up that she beat 99 trainers in the past.
    She's the only important character in this show that has ever had such a distinguished, and hyped background. It's never really brought up, but clearly those "99 wins" were written into her story to swing the Don tournament in her favor. She was a strong, undefeated trainer in the past that won a small tournament. They seemingly wanted to repeat that feel with the Don Battle by having her win the entire thing. However, this time they bent the established story-lines of Axew's weakness, and Emonga's disobedience to her favor. This ultimately made her victory against Ash feel extremely forced, undeserving, and only done so to keep their dynamics the same. Not to mention he was written into a position where he couldn't really do anything, but lose...since apparently he hasn't already done enough of that this season.

    The writers are presenting every chance to flaunt Iris's skills in battling, whereas Ash...who should be in her shoes right now, is shown to be an incompetent idiot most of the time. Given that this series, insist that this saga is still in continuation with Ash's story....it just makes it seems like all of Ash's experiences mean jack shit compared to a person who just trained one Pokemon in a secluded woodland area.
    Last edited by Masurao; 1st November 2011 at 12:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    I still fail to see the point of justifying Iris' stagnant character by comparing her to Cilan. It's apples and oranges with those two; literally the only thing they have in common is that they're sidekicks to Ash, but that doesn't mean they both serve the exact same purpose, nor should they have the same set of expectations from the viewers. They fill completely different niches. The vast majority of Cilan's growth and maturity has already happened off-screen, and considering his role is more of a supportive one, it's reasonable not to expect him to go through struggles or learn new things every day the way Ash does. That would be a detriment to his role as the supportive, knowledgeable mentor. That doesn't mean he can't or shouldn't learn new things and he does have a goal, but then again... so did Brock. We never got much fanfare for his goal, since his focus was to be supportive to Ash rather than actively watching him grow and reach his goal. Same deal with Cilan, really, only he tends to be legitimately entertaining, likable, and appealing to many viewers by getting involved in things for many episodes. A large chunk of his dialog does not consist of throwaway lines, hypocritical bull, or unwarranted negativity the way Iris' does, so naturally his reception (and expectations) will differ from Iris completely.

    While Cilan is in a clear, defined role, Iris is not. Even with her goal set in place, we rarely see her actively working towards it and most of her big achievements are gained by her non-Dragon-types, which really skews with the focus of her character. She doesn't serve to really teach Ash anything, Cilan's a better navigator and tour guide than her (and doesn't berate Ash for not knowing everything about Unova because why should he know anything about Unova, honestly), and Iris' progress towards her own goal is virtually near completion. The episodes she stars in don't show her learning anything new; they choose to glorify the abilities she already has instead. So when she makes achievements, I don't feel proud or happy for her because they're pretty much handed to Iris on a silver platter. If they're not going to bother putting effort into Iris' development, why not make her a Dragon Master already? Oh right, marketing. Gotta milk that Axew for all it's worth. Evolving Axew literally seems to be the only task left for Iris to do here, and how exactly are they going to stretch that out for the rest of the series? It's already tedious within its first year; a couple of more will make this a nightmare, especially if Axew continues to get these DEM upgrades when it clearly hasn't done the work to deserve them.

    And I'd say Iris' background has been glorified well enough to be bothersome. Two recurring characters already gush over the mere fact that she's from the Village of Dragons, and the fact that she has a Dragon-type (weak as it is) just makes everyone want to line up to battle her. You didn't see anyone (but Barry) act like this when Ash had Gible, did you? It's just dumb, especially when following episodes add on that coming from that village gives you superhuman abilities to justify Iris' mad skillz. Like, all right, we get it already, the Village of Dragons is apparently the shit for being a backwater village in the middle of nowhere governed by dragon fetishists. They need to stop using that as an excuse for the stupid shit that surrounds Iris' character.

    I still seriously question the concept of getting super-strong solely by self-training that involved beating the wildlife senseless. I'm pretty sure this series has once stated that drawing from just one source (that being yourself) to grow stronger is greatly limiting and won't get you far. It's a true fact of real life, at least. And between Iris beating up wild Pokemon and letting Excadrill get hurt just so it'll wake up, it really makes me wish someone would give her some flak. People outright villainized Paul for how he treated Chimchar back in the day, but at least Paul wasn't personally beating that poor monkey's face in. I think it's insinuated that Iris "punished" mischevious wildlife in the same manner she got Drilbur to be her bitch, so you kow... I'm sure this is some cultural boundary and this is probably kosher in the Village of Dragons, but from what I've learned about policies in this series in general, it just makes Iris look like she's utterly immune not only to rudimentary character development, but also immune to the ends that justify the means.

    So, uh. I really want to believe that there's hope and a chance that Iris might actually develop into an enjoyable character, but at this point, a year into the series, things look pretty bleak. The Deino episode MIGHT make a difference, but it seriously looks just like another episode of glorifying skills Iris already has so we can watch her lecture some other trainer who doesn't know better about how to do dragons right because naturally everybody else is wrong but her when it comes to this shit.

    One thing I have a problem with the theory of her being the 8th Gym Leader in White (an informal one, at that) is that the BW anime isn't all that keen on adapting elements from the games they're based on very well at all. Bianca's anime persona differs from how she is in the games, there's no Cheren to speak of (unless we're considering Trip our makeshift Cheren), no one knows what the hell will become of Team Plasma or N for the anime, and even Cilan's personality is notably different from how he is in the games.

    My point being, they've already taken creative liberties with several BW characters, so why would Iris' position in the games be so important for them to "maintain", in a sense, by making her needlessly powerful out of nowhere? It clearly looks like a last-minute decision based on her inconsistent behavior for the first 30 episodes, but I kinda doubt that the writers' motivation for making Iris this way is rooted in the game's portrayal of the characters. Even then, this is really a crappy way to homage game!Iris, I gotta say...

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinneth View Post
    One thing I have a problem with the theory of her being the 8th Gym Leader in White (an informal one, at that) is that the BW anime isn't all that keen on adapting elements from the games they're based on very well at all. Bianca's anime persona differs from how she is in the games, there's no Cheren to speak of (unless we're considering Trip our makeshift Cheren), no one knows what the hell will become of Team Plasma or N for the anime, and even Cilan's personality is notably different from how he is in the games.
    I had never agreed with the though of Iris being the gymleader neither. It's just that most think she will play a major role. However, like you said if she was to actually get more dragon Pokemon, then I can see her being a badge giver. But as far as why she is with Ash is something I don't get if she's so strong. I bet the writers don't even know what they are going to do when this day comes.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zidane View Post
    The whole, her having an edge over him stems from the results of the Don Battle tournament. As you probably already know, Ash and Iris both advanced to the final round together. Now the thing here is, Ash defeated Dent while being at a type disadvantage. It was the same case here as the final match was Excadrill vs Pikachu, but the writers chose to have Iris defeat Ash. Why? .
    He only defeated Dento in that battle to give Dento a reason to join Satoshi-Tachi and move along the storyline. Iris is knowledgable about Dragons, Types, Herbs, Pokemon, Unova, and connecting with her Pokemon. She read Kibago-Chan and helped her find her trainer, she helped Crimgan and Emmy, and she helped find her own lost Kibago. She's not attempting to make this Monozu feel better and bring it out of her shell. Iris isn't a hick off the streets she knows very well what her job is and what she's capible of, sure the Don Battle Tournament could have been used to further Shuuti's Rivalry but, I'm not gonna dwell on what could have been. Iris isn't at fault for Shuuti losing in the first round and there rivalry looking more shitter, DENTO is. So it really does get on my nerves to see people trying to connect there shitty rivalry to Iris. It just makes the whole argument seem like a pack of Double Standards. People complain about Iris's lack of training Kibago and him getting Outrage, but Ash didn't train Scraggy for crap and he got a very strong move better then Outrage "High Jump Kick" both moves have draw backs that have been displayed and haven't been used since the eppys they were used in.

    I'm looking forward to the Monozu ep regardless, Iris lecturing the Monozu trainer for being an incompetent ass and leaving his depressed Pokemon, shows her athoritative side as a trainer and shows she cares for it, and wants the best for her new Dragon Friend. So, Iris is striving for her goal and trying to learn to be a good trainer and connect to Dragon Types something a "Dragon Master" has to be able to do, and that shows growth in her character and growth on her part and shows mentally she's gaining and learning more. She's just as supportive as Dento, supporting Satoshi's strategy at Kamitsure's gym, (because he made a smart choice) for once, Iris shows support when it should be shown, if Satoshi is going to act like an idiot he deserves to be called out on it whenever he does. Just the same way Satoshi got pissy at Iris after he lost to Bel's pappy, or when Langley kept insulting Iris for her incompetence.
    Last edited by Bubble Frog; 1st November 2011 at 05:02 PM.

  8. #218
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    what more can you do with her?? Iris is not May or Dawn, she's not splitting star-time with Ash, which is a good thing. She's a modern Misty, so hell yea, they're doing enough with her because she doesn't need a pot-of-gold-full of screentime that Ash has to this day, and she is helping to keep this show on its feet
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by gotpika View Post
    Iris is knowledgable about Dragons, Types, Herbs, Pokemon, Unova, and connecting with her Pokemon. She read Kibago-Chan and helped her find her trainer, she helped Crimgan and Emmy, and she helped find her own lost Kibago. She's not attempting to make this Monozu feel better and bring it out of her shell. Iris isn't a hick off the streets she knows very well what her job is and what she's capible of
    Overall, I feel that this assessment is actually fairly accurate, but there's two things that jump out when I read this. One, if Iris is already knowledgeable, already such a great trainer, can already read dragons, can make medecine, jump on trees, basically is already shown to already possess all the qualities required to be a Dragon Master, why is she on the main cast? Why is she on this journey? The whole point of a journey, and storytelling in general, is to be changed by it; to make mistakes, learn from them, grow and develop, but here, Iris isn't shown to do so. She's only ever shown to be competent and have nothing standing in her path to achieving her goal. She never makes mistakes, all her problems aren't her fault and get resolved through plot magic at the most convenient times.

    The second thing that jumps out is that this description really only fits Iris since the Emmy episode. Before that she wasn't shown to be an actually competent trainer, she didn't really have any knowledge and skills to help Kibago grow, she knew herbs, but her "sixth sense" was fauxjo rather than mojo. Her problem with Doryuuzu appeared to be caused by her and seemed to have the opportunity to yield some lesson for her (which in the end wasn't the case)... All in all, Iris actually had all the ingredients to be a compelling character had the writers spent less time showing Iris bitching on the sidelines and more time showing her opening up and being friendly, and actually trying to do things to solve her problems.

    Iris isn't at fault for Shuuti losing in the first round and there rivalry looking more shitter, DENTO is.
    I don't actually think that Dento beating Satoshi affected the rivalry for good or bad. Satoshi beat Dent, Dent beat Shooti, Shooti beat Satoshi... if anything, it equalizes the rivalry and makes it less one-sided on Shooti's side. But the thing is, that unlike an hypothetical situation where Iris would've beaten Shooti in the first round and went on to win the tournament, there was the potential for the rivalry to be made better by Dent beating Shooti, since Shooti's style is very much the one that got Dent to lose against Satoshi, and that by showing Dent using a bit of Satoshi's techniques and spirit, you could've had Dent developing, Shooti realizing that Satoshi's techniques are actually good and can be a threat to him could've started to respect him and even build up an interest in learning from Satoshi/beating him. Of course, that would've required the writers to actually care about other characters than Iris during the planning of that tournament. Everyone but her was dumbed down, made weaker and taken out early to justify her win in the end. Problems that should've stood in her way to win this tournament magically disappeared because that's all the writers cared about. They sacrificed everyone else's characterization and potential growth to justify this.

    People complain about Iris's lack of training Kibago and him getting Outrage, but Ash didn't train Scraggy for crap and he got a very strong move better then Outrage "High Jump Kick" both moves have draw backs that have been displayed and haven't been used since the eppys they were used in.
    Once again context is key here, because learning a move mid-battle is neither good nor bad. Whether it's good or bad depends on the context, the situation, the way the moves were learned, the stakes, etc. Kibago was never shown to be able to really perform in a real trainer battle, let alone win one. It was still weak, had done very little progress, had just mastered a move by pure plot magic, and now he's used in the semifinals of a tournament in a battle where he's totally outclassed and overpowered until, yet again, poof! Magic! It learns one of the most powerful moves it can learn, totally out of thin air for no other reason than to give Iris a win she did not deserve. It wasn't earned, it cheapened the tournament. Zuruggu on the other hand learned the new move in a situation where there weren't any stakes, was actually shown how to use it by a more experienced pokémon, did not get it at first, and the drawback of the move actually has a cost on the pokémon using it (as opposed to being confused for two seconds after destroying everything in sight).

    That's the danger with comparing parts of Iris' story to similar situations for other characters: they're similar but not the same. They have a different context, different ramifications, can affect the story in different ways. That doesn't mean that people putting forward these arguments are using double standards, it means they're posting in good faith, analyzing two different situations differently. It's comparing apples and oranges. Telling someone who doesn't like the apple that it's the same as the orange isn't really a valid assessment. Instead, telling them what's good about the apple would serve the argument better. ; )

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    I want Iris to have more Dragon Pokemon...I just don't see how you can become a dragon master without a team of dragon pokemon...Iris needs more dragons...Dragon pokemon trainers in the games primarily use DRAGONS, or pokemon that resemble the dragon pokemon species (ex. Charizard, Aerodactyl, Gyarados, etc...) At the moment, I wouldn't consider Iris a dragon pokemon master in training with her having pokemon on her roster like Excadrill and Emolga...Perhaps it would be better if she were a type specialist, despite Unova's somewhat limited supply dragons...that being said...

    To be perfectly honest, I don't think they've given a good description or plan of action as to how she will become a dragon master...There's only Axew, and all she has to do is evolve it into a Haxorus...Is that it? There must be more to it...Because Iris is a dragon master in training, and Axew is her ONLY dragon at this point, really that's all she has to work with. Her other pokemon aren't dragons, and in my eyes can only play support roles to help Axew evolve. But there has to be more.

    And another thing. I don't see how the skills that Iris has now "already" make her a certified Dragon Master. I just don't agree that her abilities that she currently has are enough to qualify her as a fully-recognized dragon master. Ok, she's very athletic, can swing from trees, knows about Unova, knows about type matchups, knows how to connect with dragon pokemon, can make pokemon medicine from berries, etc... what is SO problematic with that? Would it be going too far to possibly think those are basic skills and knowledge cultivated in her from her time spent in the dragon village? And who's to say without a doubt that those skills alone are all it takes, or what qualifies one as a dragon master? As of yet, none of those things have helped Axew evolve. Even further, we can probably assume that people from Iris' village of Dragons probably have similar skills and abilities but they aren't shown to the outsiders in Unova becaue venturing from there probably isn't too common. Iris' knowledge and skills most likely come from her time spent in the village of dragons, as it's an indication of how she's connected with nature and her surrounding environment. But in order for her to advance in her goal, enhancing those skills and applying those principles to her pokemon training would be a good way to take her to the next level.

    So NO, I strongly disagree that the abilities that Iris currently has are enough to declare her a Dragon Master. Because if that were the case, then she'd have a Haxorus already, wouldn't she? But she doesn't. And she wouldn't need anyone's help, and she wouldn't be travling with Ash and Cilan. But clearly she DOES needs help. Isn't that why she's traveling with Ash and Cilan to begin with? Isn't it because she needs help with training her Axew? Did she, or did she NOT ask Cilan to help her with her training? Iris has a plan for how she wants to do things. She goes at her own pace. It's just not coming to realization right away. She doesn't want Axew PWNed into next Tuesday by having Ash's Uber Pikachu SLAY it by Electro Ballin', ThunderBoltin', Iron Tailin', or Quick Attackin' it to death. That's exactly why she asked Cilan for help because she knew that he'd be the more mature one to ask for help, and understand her feelings. Axew has made slight movements up and up, but it still has a long way to go. So hopefully Ash and Cilan can be there to support her in her endeavors and that Iris gets the development that she deserves.
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Afrojisiac-19 View Post
    But in order for her to advance in her goal, enhancing those skills and applying those principles to her pokemon training would be a good way to take her to the next level.
    Except she doesn't ever do that, nor does she apparantly need to since every single problem she has never costs her anything and ultimately solves itself on their own without any effort and without any lesson learned for Iris since she's never to blame for anything. There's no development, there's no growth, because there's no struggle.

    Because if that were the case, then she'd have a Haxorus already, wouldn't she?
    Not necessarily, the skills of the trainer doesn't equal the skill of the pokémon. If anything, that Iris already has all the skills necessary to be a Dragon Master, as such hyped abilities, but has to wait on Kibago to match her skill level is even less compelling.

    Isn't that why she's traveling with Ash and Cilan to begin with?
    She originally was intrigued with Ash because he saw Zekrom and claimed she was following to show him around. But she's clearly not learning anything from Ash and Cilan since the writers consistantly overhype her abilities and make her seem like a much tougher and stronger than a guy that's gone through 4 Leagues and won two championships and a gym leader.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Afrojisiac-19 View Post
    To be perfectly honest, I don't think they've given a good description or plan of action as to how she will become a dragon master...There's only Axew, and all she has to do is evolve it into a Haxorus...Is that it? There must be more to it...Because Iris is a dragon master in training, and Axew is her ONLY dragon at this point, really that's all she has to work with. Her other pokemon aren't dragons, and in my eyes can only play support roles to help Axew evolve. But there has to be more.
    Based on past debates where some went into great detail about how a Dragon Master is nothing like Misty's WPM goal, it seems like canon's given us a pretty good idea what it takes to become a Dragon Master. And if they are holding back and there's more to the goal than they're letting it on, why would they withhold it for so long? It's been over a year. It didn't take over a year for us to get the gist of what it takes to be a Pokemon Master, Water Pokemon Master, Top Breeder, Top Coordinator, or Pokemon Connossieur S-Rank. These are long-term goals established at the beginning so we know what the hell our protagonists are doing. Not only did Iris keep hers a secret for 30 episodes for no adequately explained reason (I read this as the writers didn't know what the fuck to make her at the time and made it "secret" to cover their lazy asses), but once she did reveal her goal, the way she was portrayed changed drastically. It just created a lot of writing inconsistencies, which should show there's nothing to gain by holding off on a protagonist's goal for the better half of a year.

    So why would they still be holding off on something for the Dragon Master goal now? What are they waiting for, a written invitation? It just makes no logical sense that they'd still be holding secrets at this point.

    I don't see how the skills that Iris has now "already" make her a certified Dragon Master. I just don't agree that her abilities that she currently has are enough to qualify her as a fully-recognized dragon master. Ok, she's very athletic, can swing from trees, knows about Unova, knows about type matchups, knows how to connect with dragon pokemon, can make pokemon medicine from berries, etc... what is SO problematic with that? Would it be going too far to possibly think those are basic skills and knowledge cultivated in her from her time spent in the dragon village? And who's to say without a doubt that those skills alone are all it takes, or what qualifies one as a dragon master?
    I don't believe anyone has connected her physical talents or medicine-making skills to her Dragon Master goal. Those are just bullshit traits that usually just serve as convenient, quick plot resolutions for some episodes. I don't know why you'd list Iris' dragon-reading abilities as being irrelevent to her goal, though. As the anime blatantly points out, like the games, Iris is the girl who can read the hearts of dragons. The way they hype this skill, I think it's safe to assume this is not an easy thing to learn, much less master, and Iris has so far had no trouble in this area as we've seen multiple times. We're about to see it get rubbed in our faces a third time with Deino for sure. But I don't think it's a stretch to believe this ability to communicate with dragons is a critical element for the Dragon Master goal, it's not something that can be learned or mastered overnight, and yet Iris does it like it ain't no thang. There could've been plenty of opportunities to show Iris struggling in mastering this, but instead she's utterly flawless in this area and kills any chance of her gaining character development in the process. That's what's problematic about it; because as it was said...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine
    The whole point of a journey, and storytelling in general, is to be changed by it; to make mistakes, learn from them, grow and develop, but here, Iris isn't shown to do so. She's only ever shown to be competent and have nothing standing in her path to achieving her goal. She never makes mistakes, all her problems aren't her fault and get resolved through plot magic at the most convenient times.
    The bread and butter of this series is the journey, watching inexperienced kids become very talented trainers with their own unique abilities that they eventually realize. We don't get anything like this with Iris because she's already so far into her progress to become a Dragon Master, so instead we have to settle for her bullshit superiority complex and your-mileage-may-vary attitude when they could've spent that time finding a way to help her mature on her journey just like everyone else is doing. That's what makes her many talents problematic.

    So NO, I strongly disagree that the abilities that Iris currently has are enough to declare her a Dragon Master. Because if that were the case, then she'd have a Haxorus already, wouldn't she?
    No one has said she's a full-fledged Dragon Master already. Just that she's extremely close to being one. Axew is literally the only hurdle portrayed in canon for Iris; we get no indication that Iris has a lot to learn otherwise on being a Dragon Master and based on how we see her act in certain episodes, she acts pretty damn professional and efficient in her work. Also,

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine
    the skills of the trainer doesn't equal the skill of the pokémon
    So Axew's low level has nothing to do with Iris being inept. If she had Axew as long as she had Excadrill, it'd probably be a Haxorus by now already. And I suspect the anime will follow the example of the games and outright show us that Dragon-types tend to take forever to evolve regardless of your level of experience. So if Axew takes forever to evolve, that's still not really Iris' fault. That's just the nature of the species that won't evolve until they're extremely high-leveled. Axew is still very much a baby, so the road to evolving Axew will be very very long and tedious regardless of Iris' level of expertise.

    So yeah. Iris being way too advanced way too early on is a very well-founded argument, believe it or not.

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    Easy listening Masurao's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    For being a main cast member character on the show, I'd like to see a more valid reason than just "I trained in the woods." for her over-hyped skills as a trainer. Ultimately, it just coming across that all you have to do is train in the woodland area of a small village..and you'll somehow have an edge over someone that's traveled throughout 4 regions, experienced countless Pokemon, and fought against legendaries. Given Ash's portrayal in the last two sagas....in BW it just seems like the writers are screwing his continuity to favor her, and to "justify" their dynamics.

    All the writers are doing right now, is presenting every opportunity to show how magnificent of a battler Iris is, while throwing loses on Ash primarily and Cilan.
    Last edited by Masurao; 2nd November 2011 at 09:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
    Overall, I feel that this assessment is actually fairly accurate, but there's two things that jump out when I read this. One, if Iris is already knowledgeable, already such a great trainer, can already read dragons, can make medecine, jump on trees, basically is already shown to already possess all the qualities required to be a Dragon Master, why is she on the main cast? Why is she on this journey? The whole point of a journey, and storytelling in general, is to be changed by it; to make mistakes, learn from them, grow and develop, but here, Iris isn't shown to do so. She's only ever shown to be competent and have nothing standing in her path to achieving her goal. She never makes mistakes, all her problems aren't her fault and get resolved through plot magic at the most convenient times.
    Iris is far from "perfect". Iris unlike Dento or Satoshi has trouble understanding her Pokemon, fears Ice Types, is immature, has a Emonga problem, isn't athoritative enough with her Pokemon. She also doesn't really think outside of the box in some situations, something about Satoshi that apparently has impressed her at times throughout the series. Why she on the main cast? Lol, why is Dento on the main cast, if he's a near perfect Sommelier, and good at everything? His Pokemon are all powerful, and apparently good enough to do just about anything. Iris's level of competence isn't some amazing god like thing. She has had quite a bit of things standing in her way, like Langley for example whom criticized her and her Doryuuzu as well her abilities, instead of retaliating with more insults she went to Dento and Satoshi for guidance they explained that her situation with Doryuuzu was she didn't quite understand her Pokemon, specifically Doryuuzu. She lashed out at Dento a bit, but questioned herself afterwards. I'd hardly call Doryuuzu's resolution and turn around a "plot device at the most convenient moment" she still lost to Tsunbear regardless because Doryuuzu went down first, according to that and what Langley and Iris said, that means Langley pretty much beat Iris everytime.

    The second thing that jumps out is that this description really only fits Iris since the Emmy episode. Before that she wasn't shown to be an actually competent trainer, she didn't really have any knowledge and skills to help Kibago grow, she knew herbs, but her "sixth sense" was fauxjo rather than mojo. Her problem with Doryuuzu appeared to be caused by her and seemed to have the opportunity to yield some lesson for her (which in the end wasn't the case)... All in all, Iris actually had all the ingredients to be a compelling character had the writers spent less time showing Iris bitching on the sidelines and more time showing her opening up and being friendly, and actually trying to do things to solve her problems.
    Her "sixth sense" was correct a few times, like back at Yaguruma Forest as well as the Shippou Musuem. While you look at things and see Iris wasn't a competent or decent trainer, I've seen past episodes and seen moments where Iris showed her competence and abilities as a trainer quite well. Doryuuzu is the biggest example, her knowing about Puririu's Cursed Body ability, her knowing a decent amount about the Pokemon, as well as the fact she acted smug at times to Satoshi showed that she's defiantly no beginner newbie. If I remember correctly Hikari's first time seeing evolution was when Satoshi's pigeon evolved, so comparing Iris to a newbie trainer feels pretty weak. She did learn from her Doryuuzu problem, because she learned about her inability to read her Pokemon, and know there limits in battles. She didn't understand her Pokemon's feelings, which was the problem. If Iris was a more understanding trainer, then Doryuuzu wouldn't have locked itself away from her. Iris accepted her flaws in BW036 when she gave the fault to herself, none other but herself. Her willing to say "I was wrong" " I fucked up" showed a step in the right direction toward maturing a bit for Iris a immature Jungle girl who likes to call other people kids.

    Iris:Could it be that you already knew after the first hit we couldn't win against the opponent? And yet I ... I...Doryuuzu... I'm sorry. "

    Iris breaks down in tears, and admits her faults and wrongs showing a more weaker, more mature side of Iris.

    I don't actually think that Dento beating Satoshi affected the rivalry for good or bad. Satoshi beat Dent, Dent beat Shooti, Shooti beat Satoshi... if anything, it equalizes the rivalry and makes it less one-sided on Shooti's side. But the thing is, that unlike an hypothetical situation where Iris would've beaten Shooti in the first round and went on to win the tournament, there was the potential for the rivalry to be made better by Dent beating Shooti, since Shooti's style is very much the one that got Dent to lose against Satoshi, and that by showing Dent using a bit of Satoshi's techniques and spirit, you could've had Dent developing, Shooti realizing that Satoshi's techniques are actually good and can be a threat to him could've started to respect him and even build up an interest in learning from Satoshi/beating him. Of course, that would've required the writers to actually care about other characters than Iris during the planning of that tournament. Everyone but her was dumbed down, made weaker and taken out early to justify her win in the end. Problems that should've stood in her way to win this tournament magically disappeared because that's all the writers cared about. They sacrificed everyone else's characterization and potential growth to justify this.
    Lol, I was under the impression that you stated before that Iris character being allowed to interact or battle Shuuti when Satoshi and himself don't even have a fully established rivalry yet, would be detrimental to the rivalry and Shuuti and Satoshi's development throughout the series. Yet, Dento is allowed to do the same thing? xD Oh, and Dento didn't learn jack from Satoshi he was using his own pattened "Dento Pretty Boy" battle style, he struggles goes pretty boy "IT'S TASTING TIME" and he pulls through in the clutch, saying that this defeat helped the rivalry after everything that was said about Iris's interaction with Shuuti before hand. Makes the whole scenario and idea seem sooooooooooooooooooooooo stretched out and forced as a whole. Nice try though



    Once again context is key here, because learning a move mid-battle is neither good nor bad. Whether it's good or bad depends on the context, the situation, the way the moves were learned, the stakes, etc. Kibago was never shown to be able to really perform in a real trainer battle, let alone win one. It was still weak, had done very little progress, had just mastered a move by pure plot magic, and now he's used in the semifinals of a tournament in a battle where he's totally outclassed and overpowered until, yet again, poof! Magic! It learns one of the most powerful moves it can learn, totally out of thin air for no other reason than to give Iris a win she did not deserve. It wasn't earned, it cheapened the tournament. Zuruggu on the other hand learned the new move in a situation where there weren't any stakes, was actually shown how to use it by a more experienced pokémon, did not get it at first, and the drawback of the move actually has a cost on the pokémon using it (as opposed to being confused for two seconds after destroying everything in sight).
    Zuruggu's pulling High Jump Kick outta his ass, despite never being trained by Satoshi once, compared to Iris at least training Kibago. And some how being this awesome battler whom can knock out a evolved Flying Type in one hit with said move no less, dodge, and have acrobatic abilities that Pokemon like Pikachu and Kibago have is fair? Is Zuruggu getting complained about, or criticized? No. That's just the short of it plain, "DSs".

    That's the danger with comparing parts of Iris' story to similar situations for other characters: they're similar but not the same. They have a different context, different ramifications, can affect the story in different ways. That doesn't mean that people putting forward these arguments are using double standards, it means they're posting in good faith, analyzing two different situations differently. It's comparing apples and oranges. Telling someone who doesn't like the apple that it's the same as the orange isn't really a valid assessment. Instead, telling them what's good about the apple would serve the argument better. ; )
    Well, comparing Iris to Hikari is not the same, comparing her character to a rookie is not the same, comparing her level of competence as a trainer to Satoshi's is not the same. Different context, ramifications, that affect the story in different ways. It still smells like Double Standards. You can rationalize it anyway you want, but to me, all that shows is that certain things in the argument are being bent to be convient for your argument. The Pecha and Oran may not be the same but, at the end of the day I still see people comparing them in situations where it's convenient for them xD Iris was complained at quite a bit, for being a character who doesn't have fun scenes or comedy, despite not being a character ment for such like "Dento", but that makes me wonder why she's being compared to Dento in that area where the characters are different and it would be unfair to compare them to eachother, but it doesn't matter because it makes the argument much for better for the opposing debater

  15. #225
    Easy listening Masurao's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

    Quote Originally Posted by gotpika View Post
    Iris unlike Dento or Satoshi has trouble understanding her Pokemon.
    Except that hasn't been really touched on at all outside of BW 36..given that her Pokemon all overcome their previously established storylines, via plot magic to benefit Iris.

    Quote Originally Posted by gotpika View Post
    Has a Emonga problem.
    Um..no? Or did you not watch the Don Battle tournament, or the recent Musical episode? Emonga's disobedience was taken care of...off-screen. Once again, a case of plot magic. She didn't really struggle to earn it's affection. In fact, the last time we saw it before the tournament was in the Fossil episode....where it still was disobedient.

    Quote Originally Posted by gotpika View Post
    Why is Dento on the main cast?
    He wanted to observe Ash, and learn more about his style for future reference as a Connoisseur. He has a valid reason for wanting to travel with Ash, his presence is justified. Iris is much less so considering she claimed to just want to "show Ash around", and all she could really do towards the beginning is bitch at Ash, and whine about how annoying Dento is. She ultimately, doesn't feel like she has anything to really learn from them, because she already seems to have all the qualities of a Dragon Master, and can already train a Pokemon to a point where it can get 99 straight wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by gotpika View Post
    His Pokemon are all powerful, and apparently good enough to do just about anything
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by gotpika View Post
    Is Zuruggu getting complained about, or criticized? No
    Again, at least Scraggy got the move from observing another Pokemon. He also did this against a wild Pokemon. Unlike Kibago, who whipped out the strongest Dragon move one can learn, thereby saving Iris a loss in the tournament, against a trained Pokemon. Kibago had been established before hand as not being able to battle against a well trained Pokemon. But, ultimately they ignored it's previous characterization, just so Iris could ultimately go on to win the tournament she didn't desrve to win in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by gotpika View Post
    Iris's level of competence isn't some amazing god like thing.
    Yet, the writers have presented every opportunity to flaunt how skilled Iris is, like she's the best thing since sliced bread. Her background is the most hyped, and over-excessive story we've ever had for any main cast member on this show. She's being presented as if she's better, than someone who has traveled through 4 leagues, and won two championships. Why? Because apparently, keeping their dynamics the same is obligatory...
    Last edited by Masurao; 2nd November 2011 at 11:07 PM.

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