Please, please, please, please, please do not bring up "Misty" and "single-elementary mastery" in this thread, or it will completely, utterly derail. I'm serious.
Anyway, I'd say that the overwriting of Misty, May, and Dawn means that it's all the more jarring for Iris to suddenly be inconsistent. As loathe as I am to admit, Misty's progression from Kanto/OI to background scenery was at least not sudden and jarring and never mentioned. It was just jarring and never mentioned, but it was spread over time. But after Misty came May and Dawn, who were both written very well in the end, and even for the first sixty episodes I'd say that the writers managed to endear them to the audience. And I'll admit, the same has happened with Iris, but I think the main problem everyone has with her now is the character inconsistency and the sudden child prodiginess, neither of which were in DP. In addition, Iris' catchphrase, at least to me, has begun to symbolize the main problems of BW.
You're just a kid. Such a kid. Whatever it is, however it's said, it's a painful reminder to those that care that Ash used to be an expert trainer and isn't. And it's a reminder that people can't let go of the past, and as a result no Team Plasma.
I think another thing is that she's also become somewhat of a Misty rehash, heckling Ash and similar goals and gym leaderness in the games notwithstanding. But unlike Kanto, the heckling and her attempts to argue and such are just so... unreal. Fake. Artificial and unconvincing, seeing as Ash won't rise to the challenge and ignores her, making Iris look like some sort of jerk, and combined with her perfectness, it's just become silly.
Just a kid. Just a kid. Just keep holdin' on to the past, yessiree. Just a kid.
I think everyone knows what Iris' status is in the games, unfortunately I think that's put the writers in a bit of a snag. Given that bulk of Unova will be done at least by episode 100-110, it feels as if the writers can't really figure out what to do with Iris. They see her status in the games, and figure they can't write her the way they did the past few females. However, at the same time the way they have executed her has just made her uncompelling.
Even when Iris says she wants to improve and grow stronger...her writing goes completely contrary to that. Because honestly, what was the point...out of all the characters that entered the Don Battle tournament, to have Iris win? It just doesn't make any sense. No sense at all.
My feelings are mixed about Iris.On daily basis Iris interacts just fine with Ash and group having her share of focus and some development.
In first 50 episodes she had around 8 or 9 episodes which focused mostly on her not being bad for a supporting character.
We already saw Iris catching Emolga,resolving problems with her and Excadrill,saw Axew learning new moves starting to grow.We also learned more about Iris past,from where she comes,what is her goal and why she was sent on journey drawing connection with Drayden announcing culmination of her story when they reach 8th gym etc.We also saw Langley as rival being introduced along with winning Don George tournament.
Its not that Iris isnt getting enough focus,but my main issue is that screen time isnt being used in productive manner with there existing several inconsistencies in writing..For instance problem with Emolga was resolved too soon with no foreshadowing or build up happening prior to that.On one moment we saw disobedient pokemon not having respect for trainer just to,puff out of sudden start listening like issue never existed in first plac.Axew learned outrage out of nowhere etc .Problem with Excadrill while it gave us insight in Iris past being quite touching lasted for too short being rather rushed imo.
Even her rivalry with Langley isnt being exploited not getting anywhere at this point.
There are no present struggles within Iris character at current moment,she doesnt seem to have something which she needs to resolve with most of issues being solved by their own.Now i like her character and personality but i can understand people who are having hard time to care with there not existing tension nor growth.
While i welcome having character for a change which is competent not being beginner when starting out,writers should start building up on it by having Iris starting to go through obstacles which would bring consequence of some of flaws starting to come out on surface allowing audience to have easier time to relate toward character.
However perhaps this is just writers way of intending to develop Iris character in different way than it was case with previous companions with there not existing usual struggles and losing streak.If that is their intention they should at least acknowledge that some further growth toward Iris goal of dragon master is being made with there being provided problems she would need to deal with.
Granted its not necessary for character to crack up and start losing confidence to gain development,but there at least needs to exist tension showing someone having trouble when passing certain task which is put in front of him.
Speaking of Iris she seems to receive little more focus than Misty did but but problem is there isnt present proper writing around it.With May,Dawn and Misty there existed moments where we saw character struggle learning from his mistakes.They had to work hard for things they accomplished being possible to feel tension during course of their run showing signs of improvement and progress being made.
With Iris,main issue is that she isnt learning from mistakes,because there hasnt been made any.There isnt present any indication of further progress being made(at least not in believable way)with character not receiving enough substance within his story.
Why are the writers so seemigly hesitant about Iris losing, when they sure as hell don't seem to have a problem with Ash, or Cilan doing so? Why are they treating her like she's the greatest thing since sliced bread? She's been ignoring rudimentary character development for over a year. It's incredibly aggravating to see someone we have to likely deal with for another 2 years being handled like this. As far as I'm concerned Iris' character is pretty much FUBAR at this point.
Well, she may or may not turn out to be the eigth gym leader...if she is, who knows? Maybe the writers don't want Iris to be potrayed as a weak trainer...or one with a severe lack of experience...
Before episode 36, baby Axew and disobedient Excadrill with Iris told us that she must've been a beginning trainer with hardly any experience...Surely, it would be great for Ash to teach her something (after all he's been to 4 regional league tournaments). But that wasn't the case...The flashback showed Iris training with Excadrill as a young Drilbur, training against many wild pokemon, and then she enters a tournament. Beats what, 99 trainers in a row, and then Drayden curb-stomps her...Somehow, and I still can't understand how, but the vast majority of people's opinion of that match is that it wasn't Iris' fault for the loss...How is that? Isn't Iris Excadrill's trainer? So, shouldn't she have taken blame for that loss by default?? Do people feel like Iris didn't take responsibilty or accept her flaws for the aftermath of her battle with Drayden? Do people honestly feel like Iris saying that she didn't understand Excadrill's feelings was a poor excuse for losing the battle? Was that a cop out?
But what can be done for her now? Is there anything the writers can do to redeem the development of Iris' character?? We're now a year into BW, and the vast majority of people here have already written her off...Most people don't like her, and some even feel that there's absolutely no justifiable reason as to why she's even traveling with Ash and Cilan to begin with...
Everyone wants to focus on the negative with Iris...No one wants to invent, or think of possible ways that the writers can improve with her...I mean, what else is there that can be done with her? It seems like the overall tension between Iris and Excadrill has been extinguished...What more can be done there? Iris and Emolga seem to be on better terms now, so there's really nowhere where they can go with that...All that's left is Axew...He's gotten Outrage and Dragon Rage, and so now all it has to do is evolve into Haxorus...At least there's something to work with there...
I need to know...How much does Iris have to lose in order for people to start identifying with her or caring about her, or relating to her character? How many battles does she have to lose in order for people to sympathize with her? Does she have to be so badly defeated in such a way that she ends up in an overly dramatic emo case? Will putting Iris on an extended losing streak, resulting in the very questioning of her own abilities and potential to become a Dragon Master be the improvements that she needs? Does Ash need to be the one to give her that humiliating defeat and lesson that she needs to learn from?
We've long discussed the lengthy, well though out, and organized list of complaints against the development of Iris' character...I think it's about time that we breathe some fresh air into the discussion so that we can focus on potential positive things that will give Iris said development that it needs.
She needs to be brought back down into the realm of those who actually lose, those who improve without DEMs or poorly-handled Pokémon, and she needs to stop being inconsistent.
But, if I were to improve her, I would have her:
-focus on dragon types
-ignore the village of dragons
-stop being portrayed as better than Ash
-have someone get her to shut up with the "you're just a kid"
-make her work for her ability and not let it fall into her lap
-make rebellious Pokémon actually be rebellious for long periods of time
For me, Iris just needs to actually work and put effort to solve her problems. One of my major problems with Iris is how her problems with her Pokemon have been resolved with little to no effort on her part. If she actually worked on training Axew, put actual effort into dealing with any future problems she has with her Pokemon and actually have defeats that she can learn from, then that would help out her character quite a bit. I'd also like for someone to point out her flaws, especially how she isn't stronger or more mature than Ash, so she could finally realize that she's just a kid too. I'm also kind of tired to the importance that the Village of Dragons has had for awhile, so at least downplaying where she comes, if not ignoring it altogether, would be welcomed.
I think first a foremost, I want to see more effort on her part in training her Pokemon. Having her growing, while battling alongside her Pokemon more frequently would be a great first step. I would also like to see some more justification for why she is in the group. With Cilan, it was said he wanted to learn more from Ash. However, with Iris she just stated that she wanted to "show Ash around", even when he didn't ask for help, and that was pretty much all we got from that. Currently, unlike Cilan and Ash she seems to have everything together in terms of knowledge of her said goal. It would be nice to see her learning something new, and using that to show she has a long way to go in terms of achieving her goal. I think they should stop giving her Pokemon "problems" if they are just going to get ignored whenever she needs something achieved.
The writers need to relax with the whole, Iris is a super-special trainer from the Dragon village direction they are going with her character. I don't think Iris has to go on some long drawn-out losing streak to make me relate to her character. Having her lose a few times, while questioning her abilities as a trainer then looking to her friends for support, or guidance would make her feel like she belongs. From then on, they equally distribute wins, and loses for her, while continuing to show she has more to learn. By now, I think someone should have done something about her catchphrase. It's not funny, and the fact that she's calling pretty much everyone it lately is more annoying than cute. Having an episode where she realizes that she's been a kid all this time, and mature would be a good step forward to improving her interactions with characters...and her overall.
OK, a few things...Are you all absolutely sure that Iris is being potrayed as a trainer that's "better" than Ash just because of their ratio of wins/losses? Because I'm honestly not even getting that. I mean, we all know that Ash has more experience than Iris as a trainer...But what use would it be to her to learn from him?? If you haven't noticed it seems like the writers are intentionally trying to evade and ignore everything from Ash's past, which includes: all his Gym wins against Leaders from past regions, Regional Elite Four members he's battled, conquering the Orange Islands Championship, conquering the Battle Frontier, battle techniques like the spinning dodge and the counter shield etc...And apparently he can't mention things like this to her yet because he's been reset, and the writers at this time would rather not use past references related to him...
Is there really any significant evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she's being displayed as a superior, better trainer than Ash by comparison? I can only think of a couple of things really...In the flashback, Iris was shown with Drilbur/Excadrill when she was a little girl...And she started training at an early age with it...And I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to conclude that Iris had her first pokemon before Ash got his in Pikachu. That's one advantage. She won a lot of matches in a tournament...I don't think that's displays the traits of a prodigy pokemon trainer...Probably a very experienced trainer but not an expert...
The next point is that even though Iris may have had her first pokemon longer that Ash had his, the devastating loss that ended their winning streak put any further progress between them on hiatus, and that would've given Ash a chance to catch up to her experience level...
Let's also not forget what Iris and Ash are aiming for...Ash is the one who has to beat at least eight gym leaders around the Unova region just to qualify for the Unova League. Many other trainers aiming for the same goal will be awaiting him. All Iris has to do is just evolve Axew into a Haxorus, and probably beat Drayden in a revenge match for not only ending Iris' win streak but also for being the one that dealt Iris such a crushing and humiliating defeat, even if she wasn't publicly chastised at the moment for being irresponsible during that match. Going off of those things alone, would it be too much to say that Ash is going after the harder goal?
Only thing is, it seems that Iris only shows a portion of pokemon knowledge and experience that's comparable to Ash's at best...Ash is a foreigner in Unova, Unova is Iris' native land...She's in tune with nature, she makes pokemon medicine from berries, leaves, etc, she swings from vines, etc...And as far as trainer knowledge, I can say that it seems that Iris pays a bit more attention to pokemon type advantages in battles than Ash...We know that Ash doesn't really care as much about types, because he's a trainer that acts primarily out of instinct...
At best, I can only consider Iris to be, being potrayed as a native Unovarian person who is more familiar with her home region. She's been nurtured and trained in certain qualities that give her a sense of oneness with nature, and for dragons...And as far as her status as a trainer, she was given a head start on her training career over Ash BUT her progress was caught at a standstill caused by a dramatic, emotional, humiliating loss...As a trainer, her stats are IMO only comparable to Ash as she focuses on certain traits (like type match ups) and emphasizes things that Ash may not. Nothing about that screams her being displayed as being "superior" to Ash's skill as a trainer, but then again that's just me.
Have her lose some matches, and give her something to work with so that she can learn from it, devlop, and grow steadily while she picks herself up from falling down. IDK about her catch phrase...I don't think it's gonna go anywhere...at best, perhaps you all can only suppose that it'll be phased out slowly as the series progresses...That or it'll be constantly used, or she may stop using it altogether...Who knows? Only time will tell...
In my view they should have allowed Ash to win against her there. Prior to their match-up he had already lost quite a few times this season, and Iris had not. Yet they still chose Ash to be the one to lose. It just came across as the writers not really wanting to change their current dynamics too much early on, so they allowed her to win. It's also a bit strange that she went through the tournament, and won it primarily using Pokemon that don't really fit her desired goal. I don't see why someone who is aiming to be a Pokemon Master, was written to lose in the tournament...whereas someone who is aiming to be a Dragon Master, wins it primarily using Pokemon that aren't Dragons.
So, yeah. I didn't really see the point in Iris beating Ash in the finals, of a tournament that really doesn't further her goal.
I don't think that Iris getting her first Pokemon earlier than Ash is that significant in the long run. She trained with Drilbur and won almost a hundred matches with it, which still sounds like the writers threw it in there at the last minute give her depiction never made it seem like that was a reasonable possibility, but given Iris' appearance in the flashback, she spent years not battling with Excadrill. Unless Iris had a huge growth spurt shortly after that match, I think it's safe to assume that Excadrill didn't listen to her for years. While Ash is still technically ten years old, he has been able to battle with Pikachu for a longer period of time compared to Iris and Excadrill. I know that the writers have gone out of their way to not reference Ash's past experience, but I don't think that it should be disregarded because of that.
I also wouldn't say that Iris's lost to Drayden was dramatic, emotional and humiliating. I could see it being humiliating for her after winning so many times in a row, but the lost itself didn't really seem to bother her given how she went right over to Excadrill after they lost. Besides that, if it was a dramatic and emotional lost for Iris, it should have encouraged her to continue on improving her skills as a trainer, to put more effort with raising her Axew in a strong Haxorus like Drayden's Haxorus and put a lot more on-screen effort with Excadrill, instead of rarely letting it out of its Pokeball. Instead, she apparently went from a little girl who could win ninety-nine wins in a row, which almost no beginning trainer in the course of the other series has been able to do, and put significant effort with her training to being a lazy/inactive trainer who puts any effort into her Pokemon training, which results in unsatisfying solutions for her problems. While the backstory still feels extremely forced and inconsistent, it could have been a decent start to make Iris work harder. By reliving that defeat, she could have realized, on her own, that she has a lot of flaws and that she needs to work more on training her Pokemon, especially with Axew, in order to become a Dragon Master, but that obviously didn't happen and I think it really weakens Iris' character for a lot of people.
Like many have mentioned, all she really needs to do at this point is get Axew to evolve into Haxorus. She already has quite a bit of knowledge about Pokemon and her battle skills were handed to her, so there isn't a lot for her to learn at this point, unlike at the beginning where she could learn from Ash, not because of his experience, but just because of how he trains his Pokemon, even though that would need some revision as well, could realize how immature she is and put more effort with her training with Axew in order to get it to evolve. The fact that she doesn't have much to do in order to accomplish her goal, along with how her problems are resolved with little, if any, effort on her part really prevents Iris from being an engaging/interesting character to watch on the series and to be quite honest, I think that's a shame. I liked Iris at the beginning. Her kid comments did get annoying and the fact that there wasn't much of a reason for her to tag along with Ash were kind of annoying, but I liked her different personality and the amount of flaws she had made me think that she had a lot of potential to grow as both a trainer and a person. Now, I don't think that's going to happen, at least in a satisfying way given the current writing for her character.
As far as the battle between Ash and Iris at the Don Tournament, I mean...sure it may look bad for Ash but...It's not like it took a considerable amount of skill to get that win...It was Pikachu against Excadrill...Iris had type advantage...She exploited that in her favor...Any trainer with common sense does that...
Maybe people are just overexaggerating the fact that Iris seemingly emphasizes type match ups more than Ash, and that seemingly makes her look like a "better" trainer...But I don't get that...
The moment Iris loses a battle I'm sure a lot of you will be jumping for joy.
This is the finals of a tournament. The finals. Normally the writers would try to implement some form of suspense, but their match was just a foregone conclusion. Given that Ash had already lost quite a few times this season, winning this tournament would have made it seem like he's moving in the right direction. However, the writers chose to allow somehow they hyped to high hell to win it..who didn't really need the victory anyway. Which in turn just made her seem like she was above both of her traveling companions.
And I only will be happy if her defeat leads to some actual change, or growth maturity wise for her character.
The only possible thing I can think of at the moment is that the writers may possibly be building up anticipation for another battle between Ash and Iris. One that Ash will win. I predict a loss coming in Iris' future...Whether it will be significant to her development or not, that I don't know...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zidane
I think the better question would be, if Ash beat Iris at the Don Tournament, would it have played a significant role in Iris' development afterwards?? Have you ever thought about what would've happened if Ash won instead of Iris? Would it really humble Iris and make her want to work harder? And if she lost to him there, surely she wouldn't be satisfied until she beat him in a revenge match, no? I know people want to see a change in her development, but I'm not completely sure/sold that a loss there would've been what was needed to start the improvements with her. It's not like we're not gonna see Ash win again, he's guaranteed to win battles, no matter where he travels. For Iris, I think it's a case of when and how she loses...And how she'll recover...If not now, then hopefully soon...Quote:
Would beating Iris at this point in the story be that detrimental to the story, and w/e kind of relationship they are trying to establish between the two?