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Thread: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

  1. #991
    本物の神様 FANG-TAN's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

    I have to get something off my chest.

    You know what's stupid about this fandom? At least the anime portion of it? It's that, despite all the justifications for ignoring older things just because "little kids wouldn't understand it" and should grow up with a new character they can get attached to (i.e. Mewtwo), they argue that Satoshi shouldn't be replaced because it'll be such a travesty and ruin its marketability to the kids if they followed anyone other than Satoshi.

    Um, Satoshi is a friggin' relict too, isn't he? Using that logic, it works like this: It's not like the new kids that are just getting into the show would give a crap if it's about a character other than Satoshi, because they aren't even attached to him until they actually watch the show. They'll get attached to ANY main character that's there when they first tune in. The only fans that even remotely care about Satoshi getting replaced in this day and age are people who grew up with the show, and right now plenty of the former seem to think it's about time he passed the torch. Plus, Satoshi isn't "marketable". The POKEMON are.

    When someone gives a valid reason as to why it's a good idea to keep Satoshi around as the main character forever, I'll take the "little kids" argument a bit more seriously. Because, really, if you're going to ignore everything established in the show because new kids don't care as long as there's new Pokemon and new characters they can grow up with, then it stands to reason that they should just make a god damn new show. This contradictory logic baffles me.

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  2. #992

    Default Re: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

    JUST NO OK THAT IS ALL I WANT TO SAY OK.

  3. #993

    Default Re: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by FANG-TAN View Post
    I have to get something off my chest.

    You know what's stupid about this fandom? At least the anime portion of it? It's that, despite all the justifications for ignoring older things just because "little kids wouldn't understand it" and should grow up with a new character they can get attached to (i.e. Mewtwo), they argue that Satoshi shouldn't be replaced because it'll be such a travesty and ruin its marketability to the kids if they followed anyone other than Satoshi.

    Um, Satoshi is a friggin' relict too, isn't he? Using that logic, it works like this: It's not like the new kids that are just getting into the show would give a crap if it's about a character other than Satoshi, because they aren't even attached to him until they actually watch the show. They'll get attached to ANY main character that's there when they first tune in. The only fans that even remotely care about Satoshi getting replaced in this day and age are people who grew up with the show, and right now plenty of the former seem to think it's about time he passed the torch. Plus, Satoshi isn't "marketable". The POKEMON are.

    When someone gives a valid reason as to why it's a good idea to keep Satoshi around as the main character forever, I'll take the "little kids" argument a bit more seriously. Because, really, if you're going to ignore everything established in the show because new kids don't care as long as there's new Pokemon and new characters they can grow up with, then it stands to reason that they should just make a god damn new show. This contradictory logic baffles me.
    Couldn't have said better, I can't see any flaws in your logic.
    In the end the viewers more attached to Ash are actually the ones out of the target demographic and most of the people that started the series in the OS are not even watching the show anymore. The ones thats started during DP or BW would get an initial shock, but so were people watching Digimon or Yu-Gi-Oh! when their casts changed. And the ones that will start from XY couldn't care less.
    Ash is not the face of the franchise, it is Pikachu. Give one to the protagonist of XY and we are set.

  4. #994
    pokemon fan 132 pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

    Even after 67 pages full of discussion it seems never ending debate between pro and anti side isn't swooning at all.

    Main argument from those which advocate Ash leaving is based around "small kids don't care, therefore Ash leaving wont leave any negative impact on franchise".
    But issue i have with this is its contradictory part, because if older fans don't matter and new kids wont care who is in show being already fine with current protagonist perceiving him as new character than whats the point of replacing him?

    Needless to say coming up with such broad conclusion how "new generations aren't attached to Ash character at all" would be understatement to say focusing only on short term popularity while completely ignoring how much of impact someone iconic like Ash left on pokemon series franchise and marketing on long term scale.
    Requiring further examination.

    Small kids probably aren't attached to character to same degree like older fans are, but he is still mascot and main face of pokemon series to them being used to character. He is also most recognized anime mascot(along with Pikachu)worldwide and having him replaced after 15 years could confuse young viewers with anime losing its identity,which would in process turn them away from new alternate show.

    New guy don't have 15 years behind himself, wouldn't be iconic and recognizable to people like Ash is lacking stamina,promotional value and appeal to bring in new viewers toward anime like current protagonist does. Not to mention there is no guarantee that he would be accepted among viewers with new character dragging with himself risk of ending up unpopular.

    Pokemon anime is largely different from shows like Yugioh, Digimon, Beyblade and similar likes. It was designed from start to be revolved around permanent protagonist who is out of respect for pokemon creator carrying his name gradually developing , meeting friends and exploring new regions, pokemon and cultures with aim of becoming pokemon master. Therefore whole stricture of this show is subjected to him and his quest of becoming best and renowned pokemon trainer in world.

    Ash is not one of traveling companions which gets replaced after every few years not staying long enough to become show staple and even than their leaving doesn't always go without backlash(see Brock departure after OI or Misty's after Johto). He makes this show representing it, bringing new fans toward it and advertizing new games. On long term scale everyone and their mother when you ask them about pokemon anime immediately associate it with Ash and Pikachu.

    Because they are viewed as inseparable couple which promotes anime worldwide. Just like Naruto stands out for Naruto, Goku for Dragon ball, Luffy for One Piece, Astro Boy for Astro boy etc, etc, etc.

    Needless to say while im frustrated with his lack of more concrete development as anyone else i don't want him gone just to end up with replica of current character still suffering from lack of substantial growth, being reset at start of every new saga and having more or less similar quest collecting badges, personality, and storyline like Ash currently does.
    Because with current limitations and writers lack of motivation to jump hurdle and take anime to higher level nothing would have changed for better with new protagonist.
    Considering how issue doesn't lie in Ash character and lack of potential which clearly is there to be done more, but writers and as long they don't decide to break mold and add new , different spins to anime and characters no amount of new additions is going to change current formula.
    Moreover if your going to make replica of Ash with new guy using Pikachu, might as well keep current protagonist instead.

    Large appeal behind this show comes from being treated as entity based story which is set in same timeline and universe exploring on constant protagonist and his companions supposing to follow them on adventure and receive build up on stories and friendship as they get to know each other over time and share their ambitions and dreams.

    Making pokemon unique and different compared to other anime adaptations which usually last for 52 episodes being chopped in multiple alternate deviations.
    Personally i would rather want that writers for change invest more in Ash story take established character to new, unexpected directions having more complex growth. He hasn't won a league yet,concept of champion league which was for first time brought in DP has been relatively unexplored and Ash never officially challenged E4 and champion so there certainly exist prerequisite to do follow up of what what developed in past.

    If anything judging by massive demand for original trio reunion or revival of previous companions it seems to me how most fans just want better written show which pays attention to history and previous companions investing more in main protagonist and his companions they grew to like. As opposite to starting things without finishing them, which is in writers habit it seems leaving most characters unfinished.

    Instead of replacing Ash and everything this show stood for i would rather want to conclude pokemon series when that day finally comes with Ash storyline with no new remakes being made, which would only in my opinion take away from finality and significance act of Ash and his companions after more than decade getting finale, closure would provide tarnishing brand this show build around itself after so much time.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 28th June 2013 at 09:53 AM.

  5. #995
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    Default Re: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

    YES. I think they should get a new hero. But it's mostly because I want them to round up Ash's storyline. Let Ash win the Kalos League after an epic journey with great development and get a new hero for gen VII. It would make all my struggle to get through BW worth the while and I can finally go on with my life! I can dream can't I?

  6. #996
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    Default Re: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

    I really don't want to see an old childhood favorite character be treated like shit for another 30 years. I think Ash leaving sure I'll miss him sure. But I don't want to hear another person say Ash sucks Red is cooler. Give him some legit wins his final win in Unova was against guy he beat pretty easily in his intro ep
    There is patience and then there is sloth.

  7. #997

    Default Re: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

    Please, if you're going to use poor Ash as your marketing poster, just get rid of him. They've should've ended his story after the Sinnoh League at the latest (his story's been over since the end of Johto, IMO). Poor guy can never win a league and become a master.

  8. #998
    Flirty Thief Kyriaki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Because they are viewed as inseparable couple which promotes anime worldwide. Just like Naruto stands out for Naruto, Goku for Dragon ball, Luffy for One Piece, Astro Boy for Astro boy etc, etc, etc.
    Needless to say while im frustrated with his lack of more concrete development as anyone else i don't want him gone just to end up with replica of current character still suffering from lack of substantial growth, being reset at start of every new saga and having more or less similar quest collecting badges, personality, and storyline like Ash currently does.
    Because with current limitations and writers lack of motivation to jump hurdle and take anime to higher level nothing would have changed for better with new protagonist.
    Considering how issue doesn't lie in Ash character and lack of potential which clearly is there to be done more, but writers and as long they don't decide to break mold and add new , different spins to anime and characters no amount of new additions is going to change current formula.
    Moreover if your going to make replica of Ash with new guy using Pikachu, might as well keep current protagonist instead.

    Large appeal behind this show comes from being treated as entity based story which is set in same timeline and universe exploring on constant protagonist and his companions supposing to follow them on adventure and receive build up on stories and friendship as they get to know each other over time and share their ambitions and dreams.

    Making pokemon unique and different compared to other anime adaptations which usually last for 52 episodes being chopped in multiple alternate deviations.
    Personally i would rather want that writers for change invest more in Ash story take established character to new, unexpected directions having more complex growth. He hasn't won a league yet,concept of champion league which was for first time brought in DP has been relatively unexplored and Ash never officially challenged E4 and champion so there certainly exist prerequisite to do follow up of what what developed in past.
    You said it yourself - while Naruto, Goku, and Luffy are indeed mascots of the show, they were showing progress and development throughout the entire anime. Unlike Ash, they trained themselves a lot that when you look at the first episode and 500+ episodes later, there is a clear development. They even aged. We can see how the protagonist 'grows up' after a long adventure and many harsh battles - we find ourselves growing up with them, and while they may have tough times, have any of them regressed? Have any of them been completely became a noob? Like, Naruto suddenly doesn't know how to throw shurikens? Luffy doesn't know how to even rubber-punch? Ash has been reset each time he went to a new region (except Johto), and in Unova he doesn't even know the basics of capturing a pokemon.

    Other anime where the character doesn't grow up aren't comparable - I've said this many times. Doraemon, Maruko, and Shin-chan are mere slice-of-life animes where the story revolves around the characters' everyday life. They don't go on an adventure. They don't do anything. They just stay in the same town undergoing the same comedy every single episode. Pretty much like The Simpsons, if you ask me. The exception to this would be Detective Conan - but he's been a smart kid from the start. And whatever knowledge he acquires from the many cases he solves - he doesn't forget. He doesn't age, but he's getting smarter and the knowledge he accumulated in his brains up till the recent episodes is a frightening amount. What about Ash? Wasn't there someone who lost to a kid who doesn't even know the rules of the Unova League?

    Replace Ash, or just friggin develop him up. We want development and progress, not a stupid noob who gets regressed and reset. Think playing safe is a good idea? When they're showing absolutely no signs of improving the show, I doubt playing it safe is even 'safe' anymore.

  9. #999

    Default Re: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

    Pokémon is an anime with the purpose of making a huge ad for the games of whatever generation we are at the moment and selling the games. To put it short, it is a cash cow franchise, so comparing it with shows like Naruto or One Piece is a bit too much because we are talking about shows with two different goals.

    Pokémon is not a slice of life series, the characters are supposed to develop and grow. You are right there, but the keyword is 'supposed' because its status as a cash cow prevents the character development from sticking.
    It is a simple equation. If Ash ever gets to be a master, then the show has no reason to continue, but they need to keep it running to advertise the next generations. The solution is obvious, he doesn't win, ever.
    It doesn't matter how strong he becomes, he will always reset and forget most, if not all, of his knowledge so the newcomers can understand the mechanics behing the franchise. His Pikachu's power will be get a reboot as well since starting a new journey with the power of taking down a Latios would remove all the challenge and he can't become permanently that strong because, remember, he must lose the league in the end. Hence the resets and lost IQ points.
    In the end watching the series expecting Ash to become a fully realized master is as futile as watching Gilligan's Island expecting the cast to leave the island. The need to keep the series running makes the development inconsistent, despite of the existence of a continuity. In fact, I watch it to see how his current companions will develop, because since they will eventually leave in the end their acharacters are allowed to grow up in a sense.
    See? There are things not even good writing can overcome when your hands are tied like that.

    So, how do you overcome the formula in a cash cow series like Pokémon? You replace the main character every generation, so you can give the characters an end to their journeys and wrap up their growth without having to stop the show altogether. Because if they don't replace it, then the anime will only come to an end the day Gamefreak stops making more Pokémon games and you all know it will take an eternity because it is the second most successful franchise from Nintendo.

  10. #1000
    Legendary Pokemon クリスタル's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

    As I see from this thread, most of the people in the anti-replacing-Ash group use the reasons of:
    1. Ash should not be replaced because he is the mascot and the soul of the Pokemon anime;
    2. It is unacceptable to replace him while he had not achieve anything yet;
    3. If Ash is to be replaced, that means his existence was meaningless, which is an insult to him;
    4. They (the scriptwriters) will make a carbon copy of Ash if they replace him with new protagonist, so what's the point of replacing him?
    5. The anime had ran already for 16 years with Ash, Pokemon anime without Ash is incongruous and inappropriate;
    6. Replacing Ash will make the anime less marketable, so he should not be replaced;
    7. A simple fondness reason from the Ash fans: "He is an interesting character, why replacing him?"

    Firstly, I personally do agree Ash should not be replaced immediately, because then it will just make the anime looks very bad. But however, I also agree that Ash should be replaced immediately when time is suitable, where such "suitable time" is the time when he had made an significant achievement like winning the next coming up XY Kalos League, becoming a champion, and/or had finally qualified as a Pokemon Master. This, will obviously depends on whether the scriptwriting of the next XY saga allowed to produce such replacement chance or not. If story plot of XY is as suck as in DP and/or BW, then too bad, Ash don't get a chance to be replaced. Then the Pokemon anime will truly deteriorate into a promotion video of Pokemon franchise merely just to lure the kiddies audience to buy their merchandises, without much appreciable value in its story as being a literary work. There is then no need to watch the Pokemon anime further because it is just an advertisement.

    Most of people in the pro-replacing-Ash group look at the Pokemon anime as a fictional literary work, hence we heavily demand Ash to be replaced because his existence ruins an finely-made fictional work. We had our plausible arguments based on our basic knowledges of what makes good story writings, basic understanding of mentality of target audience market, and of course the 16 years history of Pokemon anime itself. Our reasons of Ash should be replaced are as follows:
    1. He may be the main protagonist for Pokemon anime for 16 years, but he is not the mascot of Pokemon as a whole franchise, so replacing him shouldn't do harm to Pokemon as a whole. Besides, they had done character replacement with all the companions around him, why just not Ash himself?
    2. He is regress and reset as he went to a new region, which is just impossible from character development viewpoint. Who on earth will continuously experience amnesia without his head getting damage? So make him grow! If don't make him grow, then replace him! In any case, if he is a newbie for every region, rather just make a real newcomer as protagonist for every region, where in such case is more plausible.
    3. Make another Pokemon anime protagonist =/= Make a carbon copy of Ash. Who said the new protagonist must be Ash ver.2? Must the new protagonist has the same idiotic mind and childish behaviour and naive personality as Ash? Can we not make the new protagonist having a different personality from Ash? Like this time having a clever cool-headed guy that knows how to battle strategically and creatively, or a pervert that is soft on cute ladies, or a short-tempered guy that likes to pick fight. Such characters will certainly be more interesting than current Ash Ketchum, which will consequently make the show more enjoyable.
    4. When we had a new protagonist, the story itself will then obviously be different. The new protagonist may still go to travel the region but not necessarily be reason of League challenge and Gym Badge quest. Even the new protagonist still follows Ash footstep of Badge quest, but this time we are looking at story of this newcomer but not Ash, his way of achieving this quest will be different from Ash, and his battle style may also differs from Ash, so everything is new despite his goal is the same.
    5. Whenever we as an TV audience to watch a show, we like to see a dramatic story. And in order for story (especially adventure story) to be dramatic, show should focus on a competent person. Ash Ketchum, he is surely not competent as being a Pokemon Trainer. If the anime didn't focus on Ash but some other characters like Gary Oak, the anime might turn out to be more interesting. Ash Ketchum, now feels more like an ordinary sub-character that you can meet everywhere on the road. In short: Flat and not outstanding.
    6. Pokemon anime was originally an adventure story with continuity, so by reseting Ash was already a breaking of that continuity. Why Ash is still 10 after he had traveled 5 regions? Why the hell he forgot how to catch Pokemon? You remember your old friend Charizard that was evolved back in Kanto, and left in Johto, but you don't remember all the battle strategies you had ever used back in those regions? Your memory disorder is more severe than just incurable.
    7. What happened to your dream of becoming a Pokemon Master? Do you even remember it? If Ash had lose his reason to be a Pokemon Trainer, why the show still continues, other than the only reason of promoting the Pokemon franchise?
    8. The Pokemon anime was originated from the main series Pokemon RPG game. But the game don't continue to use Red, the very first player of first main series Pokemon game, in later generations. What was the reason behind continue using Ash, where Ash was originated from Red?
    9. The Ash fans said replacing him is an insult to him, but the anti-Ash fans say continue the current regression and degradation is even a bigger insult to him, because he is not a character on its own, but a marketing tool to lure audience and to promote Pokemon merchandise.
    10. Pokemon as a franchise is popular because of the cute fictional creature called Pokemon, not Ash Ketchum. You wanted to talk about marketability and salability of the Pokemon merchandise due to Ash? His contribution is probably lower than one may expect.
    11. Marketability is certainly not a good excuse to keep Ash forever, and should not become the only reason. FANG-TAN had stated already that new audience will attach to any main characters when they first introduced to the show, so actually it doesn't matter whether the protagonist of Pokemon anime is Ash or not. Also, by introducing new protagonist, it will not only attract new audience, but also keeping the old fans active, much better than using the same one over and over.

    ...and there are more reasons that I can't even remember and list them all. But these will be the basic ones I saw in this thread the most often.


    Of course, the Pokemon anime has more story writing problem than Ash only, and such problems will not be gone by just simply replacing him. The scriptwriters should work not only in developing Ash's characteristics, but also in putting more efforts in writing a more plausible and less childish plot.
    Let see how the next XY saga goes in terms of story development. If Ash doesn't receive a good plausible ending in the end of XY saga, then probably his story will never end, and we as the pro-replacing-Ash group can certainly be dead set on forever disappointment and despair on Pokemon anime.
    Last edited by クリスタル; 28th June 2013 at 08:31 PM.
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  11. #1001

    Default Re: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by クリスタル View Post
    Most of people in the pro-replacing-Ash group look at the Pokemon anime as a fictional literary work, hence we heavily demand Ash to be replaced because his existence ruins an finely-made fictional work. We had our plausible arguments based on our basic knowledges of what makes good story writings, basic understanding of mentality of target audience market, and of course the 16 years history of Pokemon anime itself.
    I'm curious on why you think Ash's existence "ruins a finely-made fictional work". What about Ash ruins it? What works in spite of the character? I find this to be a rather bold statement -as much as I enjoy the anime, this isn't a masterpiece of writing, and of all the flaws in it, saying that Ash ruins it seems rather extreme.

    1. He may be the main protagonist for Pokemon anime for 16 years, but he is not the mascot of Pokemon as a whole franchise, so replacing him shouldn't do harm to Pokemon as a whole. Besides, they had done character replacement with all the companions around him, why just not Ash himself?
    Ash is still the most recognizable human in the anime - there's always a difference between replacing the protagonist vs replacing the companions. The concept of the anime is the journey, and Ash is the POV character. He sees new things, meets new people. Replacing the POV character with another adds little to no benefit, since we're suddenly supposed to see things from another perspective from a character whose history we're not familiar with.

    2. He is regress and reset as he went to a new region, which is just impossible from character development viewpoint. Who on earth will continuously experience amnesia without his head getting damage? So make him grow! If don't make him grow, then replace him! In any case, if he is a newbie for every region, rather just make a real newcomer as protagonist for every region, where in such case is more plausible.
    Somewhat agreed here. A better approach might have been to have the protagonist develop greatly within a single saga from the very start, then put in the next protagonist like the Adventures manga does. But since the anime has stuck with Ash and his resets for so long, changing routes so suddenly is too risky without alot of proper marketing and writing ahead of time.

    The better solution is simply to provide proper development and continuity for Ash going forward. AG and DP were on the right track for several reasons, even if not perfect. BW really set things backwards.

    3. Make another Pokemon anime protagonist =/= Make a carbon copy of Ash. Who said the new protagonist must be Ash ver.2? Must the new protagonist has the same idiotic mind and childish behaviour and naive personality as Ash? Can we not make the new protagonist having a different personality from Ash? Like this time having a clever cool-headed guy that knows how to battle strategically and creatively, or a pervert that is soft on cute ladies, or a short-tempered guy that likes to pick fight. Such characters will certainly be more interesting than current Ash Ketchum, which will consequently make the show more enjoyable.
    This argument really misses the point. Ash's main issue as a character is the lack of growth - the argument here is that if another character can be written in with more personality, why not just develop Ash's? If Ash can't develop further, why should the new protagonist develop?

    The issue isn't Ash the character. The issue is whether the writing will allow the protagonist - Ash or no - to develop.

    4. When we had a new protagonist, the story itself will then obviously be different. The new protagonist may still go to travel the region but not necessarily be reason of League challenge and Gym Badge quest. Even the new protagonist still follows Ash footstep of Badge quest, but this time we are looking at story of this newcomer but not Ash, his way of achieving this quest will be different from Ash, and his battle style may also differs from Ash, so everything is new despite his goal is the same.
    Sounds nice, but none of the ideas are exclusive with keeping Ash the main character. He, too, can try different things (like contests, which he has), or involve himself in an arc dealing with one of the villainous teams (like the N arc).

    5. Whenever we as an TV audience to watch a show, we like to see a dramatic story. And in order for story (especially adventure story) to be dramatic, show should focus on a competent person. Ash Ketchum, he is surely not competent as being a Pokemon Trainer. If the anime didn't focus on Ash but some other characters like Gary Oak, the anime might turn out to be more interesting. Ash Ketchum, now feels more like an ordinary sub-character that you can meet everywhere on the road. In short: Flat and not outstanding.
    First of all, no, not all of us expect a "dramatic story" when watching a show. My friends who enjoy Spongebob is certainly proof enough. The anime doesn't have to be some kind of epic drama to succeed.

    And as an aside, Ash's character has certainly proven competent, unless you believe being the only trainer to defeat two of Tobias' pokemon in Sinnoh to be a lousy accomplishment. I will agree however, that his (and Pikachu's) competence is way too much at the mercy of plot hax, both for and against.

    6. Pokemon anime was originally an adventure story with continuity, so by reseting Ash was already a breaking of that continuity. Why Ash is still 10 after he had traveled 5 regions? Why the hell he forgot how to catch Pokemon? You remember your old friend Charizard that was evolved back in Kanto, and left in Johto, but you don't remember all the battle strategies you had ever used back in those regions? Your memory disorder is more severe than just incurable.
    This part I agree with, but it's not an argument for replacing Ash. It's certainly an argument to improve the writing and sense of continuity that long-time viewers would like, though.

    7. What happened to your dream of becoming a Pokemon Master? Do you even remember it? If Ash had lose his reason to be a Pokemon Trainer, why the show still continues, other than the only reason of promoting the Pokemon franchise?
    When did Ash stop wanting to be a Pokemon Master?

    8. The Pokemon anime was originated from the main series Pokemon RPG game. But the game don't continue to use Red, the very first player of first main series Pokemon game, in later generations. What was the reason behind continue using Ash, where Ash was originated from Red?
    Anime =/= Game. Misty and Brock didn't travel around with Red. Red couldn't choose a Pikachu (in the original versions). In fact, Red didn't speak. Artistic deviations from the game are certainly expected, and letting Ash continue his journeys to other regions are hardly a crime.

    9. The Ash fans said replacing him is an insult to him, but the anti-Ash fans say continue the current regression and degradation is even a bigger insult to him, because he is not a character on its own, but a marketing tool to lure audience and to promote Pokemon merchandise.
    Well, as a Satoshi fan myself, I would say replacing him without giving him a proper conclusion would be an insult. Replacing him in and of itself isn't insulting.

    The argument, for me at least, is that replacing him without proper development of conclusion is pointless - that's not a sign of better writing, it's a sign of poor direction and misguided attempts at improvement. After all, if they can't properly write for a long-time protagonist, that simply doesn't bode well for a new one.

    10. Pokemon as a franchise is popular because of the cute fictional creature called Pokemon, not Ash Ketchum. You wanted to talk about marketability and salability of the Pokemon merchandise due to Ash? His contribution is probably lower than one may expect.
    Then how will a new human protagonist help? Again, we could put in a new human protagonist, but that's not a reason for instead opting to improve the currently existing one.

    11. Marketability is certainly not a good excuse to keep Ash forever, and should not become the only reason. FANG-TAN had stated already that new audience will attach to any main characters when they first introduced to the show, so actually it doesn't matter whether the protagonist of Pokemon anime is Ash or not. Also, by introducing new protagonist, it will not only attract new audience, but also keeping the old fans active, much better than using the same one over and over.
    Actually, sticking with old, recognizable faces in a large franchise has proven extremely fruitful.

    Also, if Ash isn't a big pull because it's about the Pokemon, then why should the new hero be?

    Of course, the Pokemon anime has more story writing problem than Ash only, and such problems will not be gone by just simply replacing him. The scriptwriters should work not only in developing Ash's characteristics, but also in putting more efforts in writing a more plausible and less childish plot.
    Let see how the next XY saga goes in terms of story development. If Ash doesn't receive a good plausible ending in the end of XY saga, then probably his story will never end, and we as the pro-replacing-Ash group can certainly be dead set on forever disappointment and despair on Pokemon anime.
    I don't think anyone here disagrees that with your basic point here. We all want a better scripted, more cohesive anime. By and large, though, I don't see replacing the current protagonist as beneficial in any way that simply improving Ash (and the writing in general) can't be.

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    Flirty Thief Kyriaki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raidou Kuzunoha XV View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by クリスタル View Post
    Most of people in the pro-replacing-Ash group look at the Pokemon anime as a fictional literary work, hence we heavily demand Ash to be replaced because his existence ruins an finely-made fictional work. We had our plausible arguments based on our basic knowledges of what makes good story writings, basic understanding of mentality of target audience market, and of course the 16 years history of Pokemon anime itself.
    I'm curious on why you think Ash's existence "ruins a finely-made fictional work". What about Ash ruins it? What works in spite of the character? I find this to be a rather bold statement -as much as I enjoy the anime, this isn't a masterpiece of writing, and of all the flaws in it, saying that Ash ruins it seems rather extreme.

    1. He may be the main protagonist for Pokemon anime for 16 years, but he is not the mascot of Pokemon as a whole franchise, so replacing him shouldn't do harm to Pokemon as a whole. Besides, they had done character replacement with all the companions around him, why just not Ash himself?
    Ash is still the most recognizable human in the anime - there's always a difference between replacing the protagonist vs replacing the companions. The concept of the anime is the journey, and Ash is the POV character. He sees new things, meets new people. Replacing the POV character with another adds little to no benefit, since we're suddenly supposed to see things from another perspective from a character whose history we're not familiar with.

    2. He is regress and reset as he went to a new region, which is just impossible from character development viewpoint. Who on earth will continuously experience amnesia without his head getting damage? So make him grow! If don't make him grow, then replace him! In any case, if he is a newbie for every region, rather just make a real newcomer as protagonist for every region, where in such case is more plausible.
    Somewhat agreed here. A better approach might have been to have the protagonist develop greatly within a single saga from the very start, then put in the next protagonist like the Adventures manga does. But since the anime has stuck with Ash and his resets for so long, changing routes so suddenly is too risky without alot of proper marketing and writing ahead of time.

    The better solution is simply to provide proper development and continuity for Ash going forward. AG and DP were on the right track for several reasons, even if not perfect. BW really set things backwards.

    3. Make another Pokemon anime protagonist =/= Make a carbon copy of Ash. Who said the new protagonist must be Ash ver.2? Must the new protagonist has the same idiotic mind and childish behaviour and naive personality as Ash? Can we not make the new protagonist having a different personality from Ash? Like this time having a clever cool-headed guy that knows how to battle strategically and creatively, or a pervert that is soft on cute ladies, or a short-tempered guy that likes to pick fight. Such characters will certainly be more interesting than current Ash Ketchum, which will consequently make the show more enjoyable.
    This argument really misses the point. Ash's main issue as a character is the lack of growth - the argument here is that if another character can be written in with more personality, why not just develop Ash's? If Ash can't develop further, why should the new protagonist develop?

    The issue isn't Ash the character. The issue is whether the writing will allow the protagonist - Ash or no - to develop.

    4. When we had a new protagonist, the story itself will then obviously be different. The new protagonist may still go to travel the region but not necessarily be reason of League challenge and Gym Badge quest. Even the new protagonist still follows Ash footstep of Badge quest, but this time we are looking at story of this newcomer but not Ash, his way of achieving this quest will be different from Ash, and his battle style may also differs from Ash, so everything is new despite his goal is the same.
    Sounds nice, but none of the ideas are exclusive with keeping Ash the main character. He, too, can try different things (like contests, which he has), or involve himself in an arc dealing with one of the villainous teams (like the N arc).

    5. Whenever we as an TV audience to watch a show, we like to see a dramatic story. And in order for story (especially adventure story) to be dramatic, show should focus on a competent person. Ash Ketchum, he is surely not competent as being a Pokemon Trainer. If the anime didn't focus on Ash but some other characters like Gary Oak, the anime might turn out to be more interesting. Ash Ketchum, now feels more like an ordinary sub-character that you can meet everywhere on the road. In short: Flat and not outstanding.
    First of all, no, not all of us expect a "dramatic story" when watching a show. My friends who enjoy Spongebob is certainly proof enough. The anime doesn't have to be some kind of epic drama to succeed.

    And as an aside, Ash's character has certainly proven competent, unless you believe being the only trainer to defeat two of Tobias' pokemon in Sinnoh to be a lousy accomplishment. I will agree however, that his (and Pikachu's) competence is way too much at the mercy of plot hax, both for and against.

    6. Pokemon anime was originally an adventure story with continuity, so by reseting Ash was already a breaking of that continuity. Why Ash is still 10 after he had traveled 5 regions? Why the hell he forgot how to catch Pokemon? You remember your old friend Charizard that was evolved back in Kanto, and left in Johto, but you don't remember all the battle strategies you had ever used back in those regions? Your memory disorder is more severe than just incurable.
    This part I agree with, but it's not an argument for replacing Ash. It's certainly an argument to improve the writing and sense of continuity that long-time viewers would like, though.

    7. What happened to your dream of becoming a Pokemon Master? Do you even remember it? If Ash had lose his reason to be a Pokemon Trainer, why the show still continues, other than the only reason of promoting the Pokemon franchise?
    When did Ash stop wanting to be a Pokemon Master?

    8. The Pokemon anime was originated from the main series Pokemon RPG game. But the game don't continue to use Red, the very first player of first main series Pokemon game, in later generations. What was the reason behind continue using Ash, where Ash was originated from Red?
    Anime =/= Game. Misty and Brock didn't travel around with Red. Red couldn't choose a Pikachu (in the original versions). In fact, Red didn't speak. Artistic deviations from the game are certainly expected, and letting Ash continue his journeys to other regions are hardly a crime.

    9. The Ash fans said replacing him is an insult to him, but the anti-Ash fans say continue the current regression and degradation is even a bigger insult to him, because he is not a character on its own, but a marketing tool to lure audience and to promote Pokemon merchandise.
    Well, as a Satoshi fan myself, I would say replacing him without giving him a proper conclusion would be an insult. Replacing him in and of itself isn't insulting.

    The argument, for me at least, is that replacing him without proper development of conclusion is pointless - that's not a sign of better writing, it's a sign of poor direction and misguided attempts at improvement. After all, if they can't properly write for a long-time protagonist, that simply doesn't bode well for a new one.

    10. Pokemon as a franchise is popular because of the cute fictional creature called Pokemon, not Ash Ketchum. You wanted to talk about marketability and salability of the Pokemon merchandise due to Ash? His contribution is probably lower than one may expect.
    Then how will a new human protagonist help? Again, we could put in a new human protagonist, but that's not a reason for instead opting to improve the currently existing one.

    11. Marketability is certainly not a good excuse to keep Ash forever, and should not become the only reason. FANG-TAN had stated already that new audience will attach to any main characters when they first introduced to the show, so actually it doesn't matter whether the protagonist of Pokemon anime is Ash or not. Also, by introducing new protagonist, it will not only attract new audience, but also keeping the old fans active, much better than using the same one over and over.
    Actually, sticking with old, recognizable faces in a large franchise has proven extremely fruitful.

    Also, if Ash isn't a big pull because it's about the Pokemon, then why should the new hero be?

    Of course, the Pokemon anime has more story writing problem than Ash only, and such problems will not be gone by just simply replacing him. The scriptwriters should work not only in developing Ash's characteristics, but also in putting more efforts in writing a more plausible and less childish plot.
    Let see how the next XY saga goes in terms of story development. If Ash doesn't receive a good plausible ending in the end of XY saga, then probably his story will never end, and we as the pro-replacing-Ash group can certainly be dead set on forever disappointment and despair on Pokemon anime.
    I don't think anyone here disagrees that with your basic point here. We all want a better scripted, more cohesive anime. By and large, though, I don't see replacing the current protagonist as beneficial in any way that simply improving Ash (and the writing in general) can't be.
    Because that's exactly the problem: they aren't improving Ash OR the writing in general. How did a boy who KO'd two legendaries in the Sinnoh League crashed down horribly to lose to a noob who brought five pokemons to a 6-on-6 battle? I don't call THAT improvement.

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    Default Re: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

    @Raidou Kuzunoha XV
    How interesting, that your reasons and viewpoints matches exactly to the ones I listed for the anti-replacing-Ash group right in the beginning of that post. They are mostly personal taste preference from the Ash fans, where they can tolerates bad scriptwritings, but cannot tolerate replacement of Ash no matter what.

    I don't even feel like replying much to your argument, because my post also already gives the views and logics used most often by the anti-replacing-Ash group for their debates. There may be other reasons as well, and you may disapprove my points of view. But if you wanted to argue me back, first try to use some reason that is not listed in my previous post.
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    Default Re: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Kyriaki View Post
    You said it yourself - while Naruto, Goku, and Luffy are indeed mascots of the show, they were showing progress and development throughout the entire anime. Unlike Ash, they trained themselves a lot that when you look at the first episode and 500+ episodes later, there is a clear development. They even aged. We can see how the protagonist 'grows up' after a long adventure and many harsh battles - we find ourselves growing up with them, and while they may have tough times, have any of them regressed? Have any of them been completely became a noob? Like, Naruto suddenly doesn't know how to throw shurikens? Luffy doesn't know how to even rubber-punch? Ash has been reset each time he went to a new region (except Johto), and in Unova he doesn't even know the basics of capturing a pokemon.

    Other anime where the character doesn't grow up aren't comparable - I've said this many times. Doraemon, Maruko, and Shin-chan are mere slice-of-life animes where the story revolves around the characters' everyday life. They don't go on an adventure. They don't do anything. They just stay in the same town undergoing the same comedy every single episode. Pretty much like The Simpsons, if you ask me. The exception to this would be Detective Conan - but he's been a smart kid from the start. And whatever knowledge he acquires from the many cases he solves - he doesn't forget. He doesn't age, but he's getting smarter and the knowledge he accumulated in his brains up till the recent episodes is a frightening amount. What about Ash? Wasn't there someone who lost to a kid who doesn't even know the rules of the Unova League?

    Replace Ash, or just friggin develop him up. We want development and progress, not a stupid noob who gets regressed and reset. Think playing safe is a good idea? When they're showing absolutely no signs of improving the show, I doubt playing it safe is even 'safe' anymore.
    To be fair Ash getting demoted in BW was possibly just one time thing, happening mainly because of reset in Bw games getting rid of previous pokemon, contests and connections to past regions treating it like "fresh start". As result writers wanted to mirror those changes through anime in best possible way which reflected unfortunately on Ash growth too.

    Something which didn't worked out that well judging by decline in ratings and lack of viewer interest with references to past, return of older pokemon like Charizard etc being step toward recovery and restore of experience Ash had before.

    As such writers will have to change their outlook on things and look for new ways to keep people interested, and judging by mostly negative reception established about this series and character development if this shows to not work, they might very well get Ash characterization back on right tracks changing their approach with way his story is handled. Making me belikeve how same thing wont happen in X,Y saga.

    If anime comes to an end, i would rather have it that they finish it with character with who started everything (Ash)treating this series as one big continuity, not making any new alternate series after this. Pokemon had pretty good run so far, and everything must come to an end eventually.

    Better idea imo would be if pokemon tried out cast rotation.That way we would still get new characters, while at same time people being able to see their favorites from past(like Dawn, Misty, Brock, May etc) again in action and updated.
    To have pokemon do justice with its protagonists and Ash character treating this series as one big continuity making them conclude with those which hooked us into pokemon world in first place providong end to great adventure we followed over the years , not making any new alternate series after this.

    Pokemon had pretty good run so far, and everything must come to an end eventually because quite frankly i cannot see this anime continuing forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by クリスタル View Post
    Most of people in the pro-replacing-Ash group look at the Pokemon anime as a fictional literary work, hence we heavily demand Ash to be replaced because his existence ruins an finely-made fictional work. We had our plausible arguments based on our basic knowledges of what makes good story writings, basic understanding of mentality of target audience market, and of course the 16 years history of Pokemon anime itself.
    People don't seem to understand how most Ash fans want more substantial growth and some direction in which Ash character will progress as well, but at same time we realize how replacing him for another character won't change anything.

    Issue in this show aren't characters nor they are standing in way of anime advancing and becoming more creatively written, but writers themselves. So unless they put their heads together starting to put more effort in their creation telling more attractive story no matter who comes in this show things will remain same.

    1. He may be the main protagonist for Pokemon anime for 16 years, but he is not the mascot of Pokemon as a whole franchise, so replacing him shouldn't do harm to Pokemon as a whole. Besides, they had done character replacement with all the companions around him, why just not Ash himself?
    That's very bold statement to make without taking in account impact and popularity Ash long existence left on pokemon series for past decade and half.

    Main difference between traveling companions and Ash is that he is driving force of pokemon series with whole story revolving around his journey.
    Pokemon anime is about following Ash journey of becoming pokemon master and promoting new pokemon with show being centralized around it.
    Everyone else are expendable with people being used to traveling companions getting replaced accepting it(aside from few exceptions). And even than exampšles of Misty departure at end of Johto leaving negative effect on series popularity at that time which was much less popular and recognizable should serve as lesson to people how cast changes aren't always accepted among viewers.

    Trying to use examples of Brock, Misty, May, Dawn etc to support "Ash leaving"is like comparing apples to oranges.

    Unlike them Ash is actually main star which is representing pokemon series with whole story revolving around it being most popular, iconic and recognized character worldwide. He and Pikachu at this point became integrated within pokemon with people getting used to them so much(many even attached) that pokemon series are associated with this two being their icons.

    2. He is regress and reset as he went to a new region, which is just impossible from character development viewpoint. Who on earth will continuously experience amnesia without his head getting damage? So make him grow! If don't make him grow, then replace him! In any case, if he is a newbie for every region, rather just make a real newcomer as protagonist for every region, where in such case is more plausible.
    To see what? Watching new protagonists being added to anime endlessly failing at accomplishing or coming close toward their dreams, acting like typical shonen hero and carrying around Pikachu (he is pokemon mascot) would be much more worse and incredibly stale in my opinion compared to whats happening now.

    Not to mention with Ash there exist background and predisposition to grow forward as trainer going through more substantial growth. Which can happen in future depending on writers inducement and state in which series are set in. Resetting him and failing short at winning league can't continue forever and as disappointment and drop on ratings continues sooner or later current formula is prone to being changed. This can't work for new generations endlessly either with such recipe anime currently follows compound of predictable, overused storyline, little to none continuity and unstable cast not being especially thrilling and engaging to maintain their interest for many more years to come in future.

    3. Make another Pokemon anime protagonist =/= Make a carbon copy of Ash. Who said the new protagonist must be Ash ver.2? Must the new protagonist has the same idiotic mind and childish behaviour and naive personality as Ash? Can we not make the new protagonist having a different personality from Ash? Like this time having a clever cool-headed guy that knows how to battle strategically and creatively, or a pervert that is soft on cute ladies, or a short-tempered guy that likes to pick fight. Such characters will certainly be more interesting than current Ash Ketchum, which will consequently make the show more enjoyable.
    New protagonist will still have Pikachu as main partner since he is symbol of whole franchise. New guy will still follow game quest consisted of collecting badges and entering league. As well have similar characterization to Ash's because naive, brash and clueless guys who is bound to do "right thing" is writers way to appeal to new kids making it easier for them to associate with such type of character. Exact similar traits we can found in protagonists of other animated shows like DBZ, One Piece, Yugioh, Digimon etc.

    So in that case is rises up question, whats left that it will make new protagonist "so much better " than current one?
    Ash is "stale"?
    Well if we follow line of thought how with new protagonist anime would be more creatively written than there is no reason why increase in quality couldn't be transferred to current protagonist too through new pokemon, clothes, new subplots being introduced within story etc. Its not like older character cant bring new and unexpected twists to story too, being another reason why i dont see any point in having Ash replaced.

    I would rather prefer that pokemon stays like DBZ was or Naruto,One Piece etc for example are.
    Same show with same timeline,continuity and older characters actually having chance to be seen again. Quite frankly i would rather have that pokemon series end when time comes with character who started everything and his traveling companions being treated as one big continuity which introduced us to world of s pokemon giving us insight in their adventures.
    I want to remember pokemon as something which played part in my childhood having good memories of it instead of everything being dropped by starting out new series with cheap attempt of replicating original show and Ash character ruining picture pokemon anime had and everything it stood for.

    4. When we had a new protagonist, the story itself will then obviously be different. The new protagonist may still go to travel the region but not necessarily be reason of League challenge and Gym Badge quest. Even the new protagonist still follows Ash footstep of Badge quest, but this time we are looking at story of this newcomer but not Ash, his way of achieving this quest will be different from Ash, and his battle style may also differs from Ash, so everything is new despite his goal is the same.
    New protagonist wouldn't suddenly start being handled better winning leagues, going through complex growth or being deeper in characterization, even aging which many seem to expect. Leaving us with basically carbon clone passing through same things all over again learning basics, trying to win league carrying Pikachu clone with himself. Which would be rather pointless.
    What difference will there be? Everything will be exactly the same except 13 years of development will go down the gutter.

    Problem lies in writers, not protagonist needing first to confront directly problems by putting more effort in story and characters(like Ash), fix flaws did with them and create environment for more concrete growth building up on established plots instead of leaving things unfinished.

    5. Whenever we as an TV audience to watch a show, we like to see a dramatic story. And in order for story (especially adventure story) to be dramatic, show should focus on a competent person. Ash Ketchum, he is surely not competent as being a Pokemon Trainer. If the anime didn't focus on Ash but some other characters like Gary Oak, the anime might turn out to be more interesting. Ash Ketchum, now feels more like an ordinary sub-character that you can meet everywhere on the road. In short: Flat and not outstanding.
    Lot of this is matter of opinion since it deals with character personality and personal interpretation of what is interesting and what isn't. So ill just address this:

    All of things brought up which could restore series appeal and make it more attractive to follow could be done with Ash character as well. He still didn't won league, didn't challenged E4, champion etc not being even close to achievement of pokemon master dream. There are many things left unexplored about his past, such as father who could be introduced at some point being portrayed as master himself having father vs son showdown. Or his connection to Ho-oh being said how this pokemon shows himself only to special trainers out there.

    Way i see it with Ash we could see already experienced trainer who has background behind himself going on bigger tasks reaching higher levels as trainer which means stable and stronger pokemon, deeper development, better battles, opportunity to dive more into someone history etc.
    At least with him there exists requirements to take established character to new, unexpected directions having more complex growth.

    Something you cannot do with someone who is just starting out having to go through basics all over again.

    6. Pokemon anime was originally an adventure story with continuity, so by reseting Ash was already a breaking of that continuity. Why Ash is still 10 after he had traveled 5 regions? Why the hell he forgot how to catch Pokemon? You remember your old friend Charizard that was evolved back in Kanto, and left in Johto, but you don't remember all the battle strategies you had ever used back in those regions? Your memory disorder is more severe than just incurable.
    While he may have not won league until Unova Ash was with each consecutive saga getting better developing new tactics and strategies, putting more effort in training his pokemon and adapting to different battle styles he encountered gradually improving with each passing saga as trainer and person becoming more mature and focused.
    It wasn't until BW and games revamp when he was regressed in persona and skill department to better go in correlation with message of "fresh start" games send out there.

    7. What happened to your dream of becoming a Pokemon Master? Do you even remember it? If Ash had lose his reason to be a Pokemon Trainer, why the show still continues, other than the only reason of promoting the Pokemon franchise?
    Ash still has his dream of becoming pokemon master stating it on numerous occasions. In fact in DP Lucian himself said how winning champion league is one of steps someone needs to conquer on road of becoming master, but its not only one. So we don't know what other challenges and complex tasks(like Battle Frontier was for example) Ash would need to accomplish before he becomes recognized as strongest trainer in world.

    8. The Pokemon anime was originated from the main series Pokemon RPG game. But the game don't continue to use Red, the very first player of first main series Pokemon game, in later generations. What was the reason behind continue using Ash, where Ash was originated from Red?
    True, but there should exist balance and difference between two medias allowing them to be individual in their own ways. When you exaggerate with inclusion of game elements, show lose on its unpredictability and originality with people not having something to look forward too being kept in suspense already knowing what characters and features they can expect if game pattern is followed strictly.

    Its easier and more efficient for writers to write for some show consistently by involving a character they are familiar with, who already has background and guidelines established in past through which they could do follow up and continue than somebody new who might start out with a lot of instructions and problems.
    With stable protagonist you can form brand about some show, iconic mascot through which new generations could have easier time in associating anime with, assure stable income of new customers and spread over series popularity through word of mouth to other people, which eventually generates bigger number of viewers and as final result more money.

    If this show replaced protagonists like Yugioh or Digimon does it wouldn't generate so much popularity in first place. Same applies to Dragon ball and similar anime which have permanent star in some show.

    9. The Ash fans said replacing him is an insult to him, but the anti-Ash fans say continue the current regression and degradation is even a bigger insult to him, because he is not a character on its own, but a marketing tool to lure audience and to promote Pokemon merchandise.
    Two wrongs don't make a right. Degradation and lack of consistent development is bad, but its not any better to replace character either at this point deserving better than leaving cast without being used to full potential not getting proper closure. Like other traveling companions like Misty, Max, May etc which left before their time was up.

    10. Pokemon as a franchise is popular because of the cute fictional creature called Pokemon, not Ash Ketchum. You wanted to talk about marketability and salability of the Pokemon merchandise due to Ash? His contribution is probably lower than one may expect.
    In order to have successful and healthy franchise you need foundations on which you can develop long lasting impact on audience, achieve devotedness among viewers and stable ratings long term wise which can only be accomplished through stable character which develops over pong period of time. In who people will invest and become emotionally attached wanting to stay within show to see their favorites grow in new directions, utilize what they learned and grow forward developing devotedness to stay in franchise and show until series ends.

    Which leads toward increase of popularity, series reputation and stable constant flux of money into some franchise.

    By constantly replacing protagonists which represent pokemon franchise on their own would only bring contra effect with viewers becoming less attached and interested in following anime with repeated cycling taking away loyalty and eagerness in staying tune toward it. After two regions it would become basically too repetitive with nothing being left for fans to root for.

    Problem other franchise which constantly do revamps and replace whole cast are experiencing having hard time in maintaining people interest not being anymore shadow of their former selves.

    Not saying current formula pokemon utilizes is more positive solution either because shallow storyline, lack of continuity and static development of its characters and constant cast changing without finishing job they started with previous ones is eroding this show credibility and chance to be more successful.
    But between alternative of getting rid of everything or keeping current character by putting more effort in storyline and development , second option would be much, much better in longer run.

    11. Marketability is certainly not a good excuse to keep Ash forever, and should not become the only reason. FANG-TAN had stated already that new audience will attach to any main characters when they first introduced to the show, so actually it doesn't matter whether the protagonist of Pokemon anime is Ash or not. Also, by introducing new protagonist, it will not only attract new audience, but also keeping the old fans active, much better than using the same one over and over.
    Or it does matter? We often forget to take in account how pokemon audience isn't only compound of kids which start watching pokemon with new generation leaving it after certain saga ends. Many of today target audience are kids which started following this anime in previous generation and on long term scale to people Ash represents brand this show established about itself being viewed along with Pikachu as face of pokemon anime.

    He is main source of profit which drives new generations toward this show with both older and younger fans affiliating pokemon series with him and yellow rodent. Its not, Iris, Dawn, Misty, May, Brock etc but Ash, and when you build iconic status around some character representing pokemon anime for 15 years, he becomes synonym for some anime.
    If people seriously think how Ash leaving wont leave any negative effect on young generations not bringing risk of alienating audience, than i have to say they are making baseless presumptions without taking in account all factors, both positive and negative connotations such move would pull with itself and impact character long stay left on series, viewer perception and franchise as whole.

    Speaking of older fans i met over the years most want innovations, courage from writers to change approach toward handling of characters and story. Such as having Ash advance forward as trainer without resets being made, investing more in already popular characters doing build up on existing traits and story(like several other shows do) instead of constantly replacing them like they are on assembly line to start all over again with new ones.

    To treat anime as continuity based story with writers staying faithful to it, as well consistent with character development.
    Which cannot be hope to be achieved if you discard everything sweeping current issues under the rug starting out with someone else on who those same issues will just translate, since that way you cannot clean up mess and learn on your mistakes.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 29th June 2013 at 03:57 PM.

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    Flirty Thief Kyriaki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

    [QUOTE=pokemon fan 132;4797689]
    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Kyriaki View Post
    You said it yourself - while Naruto, Goku, and Luffy are indeed mascots of the show, they were showing progress and development throughout the entire anime. Unlike Ash, they trained themselves a lot that when you look at the first episode and 500+ episodes later, there is a clear development. They even aged. We can see how the protagonist 'grows up' after a long adventure and many harsh battles - we find ourselves growing up with them, and while they may have tough times, have any of them regressed? Have any of them been completely became a noob? Like, Naruto suddenly doesn't know how to throw shurikens? Luffy doesn't know how to even rubber-punch? Ash has been reset each time he went to a new region (except Johto), and in Unova he doesn't even know the basics of capturing a pokemon.

    Other anime where the character doesn't grow up aren't comparable - I've said this many times. Doraemon, Maruko, and Shin-chan are mere slice-of-life animes where the story revolves around the characters' everyday life. They don't go on an adventure. They don't do anything. They just stay in the same town undergoing the same comedy every single episode. Pretty much like The Simpsons, if you ask me. The exception to this would be Detective Conan - but he's been a smart kid from the start. And whatever knowledge he acquires from the many cases he solves - he doesn't forget. He doesn't age, but he's getting smarter and the knowledge he accumulated in his brains up till the recent episodes is a frightening amount. What about Ash? Wasn't there someone who lost to a kid who doesn't even know the rules of the Unova League?

    Replace Ash, or just friggin develop him up. We want development and progress, not a stupid noob who gets regressed and reset. Think playing safe is a good idea? When they're showing absolutely no signs of improving the show, I doubt playing it safe is even 'safe' anymore.
    To be fair Ash getting demoted in BW was possibly just one time thing, happening mainly because of reset in Bw games getting rid of previous pokemon, contests and connections to past regions treating it like "fresh start". As result writers wanted to mirror those changes through anime in best possible way which reflected unfortunately on Ash growth too.

    Something which didn't worked out that well judging by decline in ratings and lack of viewer interest with references to past, return of older pokemon like Charizard etc being step toward recovery and restore of experience Ash had before.

    As such writers will have to change their outlook on things and look for new ways to keep people interested, and judging by mostly negative reception established about this series and character development if this shows to not work, they might very well get Ash characterization back on right tracks changing their approach with way his story is handled. Making me belikeve how same thing wont happen in X,Y saga.

    If anime comes to an end, i would rather have it that they finish it with character with who started everything (Ash)treating this series as one big continuity, not making any new alternate series after this. Pokemon had pretty good run so far, and everything must come to an end eventually.

    Better idea imo would be if pokemon tried out cast rotation.That way we would still get new characters, while at same time people being able to see their favorites from past(like Dawn, Misty, Brock, May etc) again in action and updated.
    To have pokemon do justice with its protagonists and Ash character treating this series as one big continuity making them conclude with those which hooked us into pokemon world in first place providong end to great adventure we followed over the years , not making any new alternate series after this.

    Pokemon had pretty good run so far, and everything must come to an end eventually because quite frankly i cannot see this anime continuing forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by クリスタル View Post
    Most of people in the pro-replacing-Ash group look at the Pokemon anime as a fictional literary work, hence we heavily demand Ash to be replaced because his existence ruins an finely-made fictional work. We had our plausible arguments based on our basic knowledges of what makes good story writings, basic understanding of mentality of target audience market, and of course the 16 years history of Pokemon anime itself.
    People don't seem to understand how most Ash fans want more substantial growth and some direction in which Ash character will progress as well, but at same time we realize how replacing him for another character won't change anything.

    Issue in this show aren't characters nor they are standing in way of anime advancing and becoming more creatively written, but writers themselves. So unless they put their heads together starting to put more effort in their creation telling more attractive story no matter who comes in this show things will remain same.

    1. He may be the main protagonist for Pokemon anime for 16 years, but he is not the mascot of Pokemon as a whole franchise, so replacing him shouldn't do harm to Pokemon as a whole. Besides, they had done character replacement with all the companions around him, why just not Ash himself?
    That's very bold statement to make without taking in account impact and popularity Ash long existence left on pokemon series for past decade and half.

    Main difference between traveling companions and Ash is that he is driving force of pokemon series with whole story revolving around his journey.
    Pokemon anime is about following Ash journey of becoming pokemon master and promoting new pokemon with show being centralized around it.
    Everyone else are expendable with people being used to traveling companions getting replaced accepting it(aside from few exceptions). And even than exampšles of Misty departure at end of Johto leaving negative effect on series popularity at that time which was much less popular and recognizable should serve as lesson to people how cast changes aren't always accepted among viewers.

    Trying to use examples of Brock, Misty, May, Dawn etc to support "Ash leaving"is like comparing apples to oranges.

    Unlike them Ash is actually main star which is representing pokemon series with whole story revolving around it being most popular, iconic and recognized character worldwide. He and Pikachu at this point became integrated within pokemon with people getting used to them so much(many even attached) that pokemon series are associated with this two being their icons.

    2. He is regress and reset as he went to a new region, which is just impossible from character development viewpoint. Who on earth will continuously experience amnesia without his head getting damage? So make him grow! If don't make him grow, then replace him! In any case, if he is a newbie for every region, rather just make a real newcomer as protagonist for every region, where in such case is more plausible.
    To see what? Watching new protagonists being added to anime endlessly failing at accomplishing or coming close toward their dreams, acting like typical shonen hero and carrying around Pikachu (he is pokemon mascot) would be much more worse and incredibly stale in my opinion compared to whats happening now.

    Not to mention with Ash there exist background and predisposition to grow forward as trainer going through more substantial growth. Which can happen in future depending on writers inducement and state in which series are set in. Resetting him and failing short at winning league can't continue forever and as disappointment and drop on ratings continues sooner or later current formula is prone to being changed. This can't work for new generations endlessly either with such recipe anime currently follows compound of predictable, overused storyline, little to none continuity and unstable cast not being especially thrilling and engaging to maintain their interest for many more years to come in future.

    3. Make another Pokemon anime protagonist =/= Make a carbon copy of Ash. Who said the new protagonist must be Ash ver.2? Must the new protagonist has the same idiotic mind and childish behaviour and naive personality as Ash? Can we not make the new protagonist having a different personality from Ash? Like this time having a clever cool-headed guy that knows how to battle strategically and creatively, or a pervert that is soft on cute ladies, or a short-tempered guy that likes to pick fight. Such characters will certainly be more interesting than current Ash Ketchum, which will consequently make the show more enjoyable.
    New protagonist will still have Pikachu as main partner since he is symbol of whole franchise. New guy will still follow game quest consisted of collecting badges and entering league. As well have similar characterization to Ash's because naive, brash and clueless guys who is bound to do "right thing" is writers way to appeal to new kids making it easier for them to associate with such type of character. Exact similar traits we can found in protagonists of other animated shows like DBZ, One Piece, Yugioh, Digimon etc.

    So in that case is rises up question, whats left that it will make new protagonist "so much better " than current one?
    Ash is "stale"?
    Well if we follow line of thought how with new protagonist anime would be more creatively written than there is no reason why increase in quality couldn't be transferred to current protagonist too through new pokemon, clothes, new subplots being introduced within story etc. Its not like older character cant bring new and unexpected twists to story too, being another reason why i dont see any point in having Ash replaced.

    I would rather prefer that pokemon stays like DBZ was or Naruto,One Piece etc for example are.
    Same show with same timeline,continuity and older characters actually having chance to be seen again. Quite frankly i would rather have that pokemon series end when time comes with character who started everything and his traveling companions being treated as one big continuity which introduced us to world of s pokemon giving us insight in their adventures.
    I want to remember pokemon as something which played part in my childhood having good memories of it instead of everything being dropped by starting out new series with cheap attempt of replicating original show and Ash character ruining picture pokemon anime had and everything it stood for.

    4. When we had a new protagonist, the story itself will then obviously be different. The new protagonist may still go to travel the region but not necessarily be reason of League challenge and Gym Badge quest. Even the new protagonist still follows Ash footstep of Badge quest, but this time we are looking at story of this newcomer but not Ash, his way of achieving this quest will be different from Ash, and his battle style may also differs from Ash, so everything is new despite his goal is the same.
    New protagonist wouldn't suddenly start being handled better winning leagues, going through complex growth or being deeper in characterization, even aging which many seem to expect. Leaving us with basically carbon clone passing through same things all over again learning basics, trying to win league carrying Pikachu clone with himself. Which would be rather pointless.
    What difference will there be? Everything will be exactly the same except 13 years of development will go down the gutter.

    Problem lies in writers, not protagonist needing first to confront directly problems by putting more effort in story and characters(like Ash), fix flaws did with them and create environment for more concrete growth building up on established plots instead of leaving things unfinished.

    5. Whenever we as an TV audience to watch a show, we like to see a dramatic story. And in order for story (especially adventure story) to be dramatic, show should focus on a competent person. Ash Ketchum, he is surely not competent as being a Pokemon Trainer. If the anime didn't focus on Ash but some other characters like Gary Oak, the anime might turn out to be more interesting. Ash Ketchum, now feels more like an ordinary sub-character that you can meet everywhere on the road. In short: Flat and not outstanding.
    Lot of this is matter of opinion since it deals with character personality and personal interpretation of what is interesting and what isn't. So ill just address this:

    All of things brought up which could restore series appeal and make it more attractive to follow could be done with Ash character as well. He still didn't won league, didn't challenged E4, champion etc not being even close to achievement of pokemon master dream. There are many things left unexplored about his past, such as father who could be introduced at some point being portrayed as master himself having father vs son showdown. Or his connection to Ho-oh being said how this pokemon shows himself only to special trainers out there.

    Way i see it with Ash we could see already experienced trainer who has background behind himself going on bigger tasks reaching higher levels as trainer which means stable and stronger pokemon, deeper development, better battles, opportunity to dive more into someone history etc.
    At least with him there exists requirements to take established character to new, unexpected directions having more complex growth.

    Something you cannot do with someone who is just starting out having to go through basics all over again.

    6. Pokemon anime was originally an adventure story with continuity, so by reseting Ash was already a breaking of that continuity. Why Ash is still 10 after he had traveled 5 regions? Why the hell he forgot how to catch Pokemon? You remember your old friend Charizard that was evolved back in Kanto, and left in Johto, but you don't remember all the battle strategies you had ever used back in those regions? Your memory disorder is more severe than just incurable.
    While he may have not won league until Unova Ash was with each consecutive saga getting better developing new tactics and strategies, putting more effort in training his pokemon and adapting to different battle styles he encountered gradually improving with each passing saga as trainer and person becoming more mature and focused.
    It wasn't until BW and games revamp when he was regressed in persona and skill department to better go in correlation with message of "fresh start" games send out there.

    7. What happened to your dream of becoming a Pokemon Master? Do you even remember it? If Ash had lose his reason to be a Pokemon Trainer, why the show still continues, other than the only reason of promoting the Pokemon franchise?
    Ash still has his dream of becoming pokemon master stating it on numerous occasions. In fact in DP Lucian himself said how winning champion league is one of steps someone needs to conquer on road of becoming master, but its not only one. So we don't know what other challenges and complex tasks(like Battle Frontier was for example) Ash would need to accomplish before he becomes recognized as strongest trainer in world.

    8. The Pokemon anime was originated from the main series Pokemon RPG game. But the game don't continue to use Red, the very first player of first main series Pokemon game, in later generations. What was the reason behind continue using Ash, where Ash was originated from Red?
    True, but there should exist balance and difference between two medias allowing them to be individual in their own ways. When you exaggerate with inclusion of game elements, show lose on its unpredictability and originality with people not having something to look forward too being kept in suspense already knowing what characters and features they can expect if game pattern is followed strictly.

    Its easier and more efficient for writers to write for some show consistently by involving a character they are familiar with, who already has background and guidelines established in past through which they could do follow up and continue than somebody new who might start out with a lot of instructions and problems.
    With stable protagonist you can form brand about some show, iconic mascot through which new generations could have easier time in associating anime with, assure stable income of new customers and spread over series popularity through word of mouth to other people, which eventually generates bigger number of viewers and as final result more money.

    If this show replaced protagonists like Yugioh or Digimon does it wouldn't generate so much popularity in first place. Same applies to Dragon ball and similar anime which have permanent star in some show.

    9. The Ash fans said replacing him is an insult to him, but the anti-Ash fans say continue the current regression and degradation is even a bigger insult to him, because he is not a character on its own, but a marketing tool to lure audience and to promote Pokemon merchandise.
    Two wrongs don't make a right. Degradation and lack of consistent development is bad, but its not any better to replace character either at this point deserving better than leaving cast without being used to full potential not getting proper closure. Like other traveling companions like Misty, Max, May etc which left before their time was up.

    10. Pokemon as a franchise is popular because of the cute fictional creature called Pokemon, not Ash Ketchum. You wanted to talk about marketability and salability of the Pokemon merchandise due to Ash? His contribution is probably lower than one may expect.
    In order to have successful and healthy franchise you need foundations on which you can develop long lasting impact on audience, achieve devotedness among viewers and stable ratings long term wise which can only be accomplished through stable character which develops over pong period of time. In who people will invest and become emotionally attached wanting to stay within show to see their favorites grow in new directions, utilize what they learned and grow forward developing devotedness to stay in franchise and show until series ends.

    Which leads toward increase of popularity, series reputation and stable constant flux of money into some franchise.

    By constantly replacing protagonists which represent pokemon franchise on their own would only bring contra effect with viewers becoming less attached and interested in following anime with repeated cycling taking away loyalty and eagerness in staying tune toward it. After two regions it would become basically too repetitive with nothing being left for fans to root for.

    Problem other franchise which constantly do revamps and replace whole cast are experiencing having hard time in maintaining people interest not being anymore shadow of their former selves.

    Not saying current formula pokemon utilizes is more positive solution either because shallow storyline, lack of continuity and static development of its characters and constant cast changing without finishing job they started with previous ones is eroding this show credibility and chance to be more successful.
    But between alternative of getting rid of everything or keeping current character by putting more effort in storyline and development , second option would be much, much better in longer run.

    11. Marketability is certainly not a good excuse to keep Ash forever, and should not become the only reason. FANG-TAN had stated already that new audience will attach to any main characters when they first introduced to the show, so actually it doesn't matter whether the protagonist of Pokemon anime is Ash or not. Also, by introducing new protagonist, it will not only attract new audience, but also keeping the old fans active, much better than using the same one over and over.
    Or it does matter? We often forget to take in account how pokemon audience isn't only compound of kids which start watching pokemon with new generation leaving it after certain saga ends. Many of today target audience are kids which started following this anime in previous generation and on long term scale to people Ash represents brand this show established about itself being viewed along with Pikachu as face of pokemon anime.

    He is main source of profit which drives new generations toward this show with both older and younger fans affiliating pokemon series with him and yellow rodent. Its not, Iris, Dawn, Misty, May, Brock etc but Ash, and when you build iconic status around some character representing pokemon anime for 15 years, he becomes synonym for some anime.
    If people seriously think how Ash leaving wont leave any negative effect on young generations not bringing risk of alienating audience, than i have to say they are making baseless presumptions without taking in account all factors, both positive and negative connotations such move would pull with itself and impact character long stay left on series, viewer perception and franchise as whole.

    Speaking of older fans i met over the years most want innovations, courage from writers to change approach toward handling of characters and story. Such as having Ash advance forward as trainer without resets being made, investing more in already popular characters doing build up on existing traits and story(like several other shows do) instead of constantly replacing them like they are on assembly line to start all over again with new ones.

    To treat anime as continuity based story with writers staying faithful to it, as well consistent with character development.
    Which cannot be hope to be achieved if you discard everything sweeping current issues under the rug starting out with someone else on who those same issues will just translate, since that way you cannot clean up mess and learn on your mistakes.
    Learning from mistakes?

    The writers learning from their mistakes?

    For 15 years? Did they learn from their mistakes? Or do we need to wait another 15 years for them to actually realize what they're doing wrong?

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