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  1. #496
    Registered User Blue1225's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Since people felt the need to zero in on it, does anyone really think were ever going to see Ash become the strongest trainer in the series? Because apparently that's all it means to be a Pokemon Master. So thats what his dream is then. Because this STILL brings us back to the downgrade Ash recieved in Best Wishes. He was closer in Sinnoh to achieving his dream than he ever has been and now he seems like he's farther than he's been in a long time. In a way even farther than he was back in Kanto, because we've seen a better version of him and now were stuck with this newbie.

    I'm sure kids watch the show for more than Ash. LOL, The difference between DBZ and the Pokemon Anime is like the difference between Heaven and Earth.

    I can agree that there's no great financial gain that'll take place by getting rid of Ash, however I also don't see the show losing a lot of fans or suffering because of it, because most people are either sick of Ash as he is or completely new to the series and can adapt to any main character they see.

    I think Ash has been kept around because the writers have never even really tried to finish his story. He's at least going to win a League before he goes. Anything less is just disrespectful to fans of the show. If the writers ever have him win a competition there's no doubt in my mind that he'd leave. Let's not overestimate how popular he is. I'm sure there would be plenty of people angry at his death, but I highly doubt it would be the entire fanbase (Or even half) I got into the anime after playing the games and i'm sure the same can be said for many others. I don't think Ash is the one thing holding the show up. (The anime has a lot of flaws, but thats not one of them)

    Overall, there are numerous characters who have come and gone without ever completing their goals. If that was going to be a staple of the series (Like Dreams are for One Piece) then numerous other characters would've been shown completing their goals. I think its apparent that the most important thing in the show is the adventure itself. This is why I didn't ever think Ash would become a Frontier Brain. That ends the adventure.

    "Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled Trainers should try to win with the Pokémon they love best". -Karen

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  2. #497

    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    I don't think Ash even has to become a Pokemon Master either by the end of the series. All we really need to see him is win one regional league and battle the Elite 4, and even if he loses to the Champion, I can see him being written out fine. A Pokemon Master is something I only see Ash becoming when he's an adult, somewhere around 30-50 years old, which obviously we'll never see unless there's some sort of "future montage" in the last episode that shows Ash as an adult or something.

    All the other main characters were written off without achieving their goals. May and Dawn never won a Grand Festival, Misty never became a water pokemon master, Brock didn't become the worlds best breeder, and so on and so forth. The show is about the journey, not the destination.

    Ash should be written out because if the writers are going to go through the same routine, its much better to see a new male trainer every 4 years like they do with the female characters than see Ash dragged on for 20-30 years.

  3. #498
    Super Moderator Hidden Mew's Avatar Forum Head
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue1225 View Post
    Since people felt the need to zero in on it, does anyone really think were ever going to see Ash become the strongest trainer in the series? Because apparently that's all it means to be a Pokemon Master. So thats what his dream is then. Because this STILL brings us back to the downgrade Ash recieved in Best Wishes. He was closer in Sinnoh to achieving his dream than he ever has been and now he seems like he's farther than he's been in a long time. In a way even farther than he was back in Kanto, because we've seen a better version of him and now were stuck with this newbie.
    While I don't think that he's downgraded that much in BW, at least not to a newbie level, I also don't think that Ash will ever become one of the best trainers in the world during the course of the series. Pokemon does put more focus on the journey, rather than the end goal, and they also go with how trainers can always improve their skills. That's why we still saw Tyson traveling around after he won the Hoenn League, as well as the Coordinators who won the Grand Festivals in AG still traveling and training. So, even if they have Ash win a league, I could see them still keeping him around and traveling with the idea that there's always someone stronger out there and that he can always improve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    All the other main characters were written off without achieving their goals. May and Dawn never won a Grand Festival, Misty never became a water pokemon master, Brock didn't become the worlds best breeder, and so on and so forth. The show is about the journey, not the destination.
    True, although I still think that Dawn and arguably May were at least given a better sense of closure compared to the other main characters who were replaced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    Ash should be written out because if the writers are going to go through the same routine, its much better to see a new male trainer every 4 years like they do with the female characters than see Ash dragged on for 20-30 years.
    They've been going through the same routine for a long time and I still don't think that they're going to stop doing that anytime soon. While I honestly could see using a new male trainer every four or so years working out okay back in Johto or even AG when that was the second series technically, I think it's too late for them to experiment with something like that after keeping Ash for so long. Since they've kept Ash around for about fourteen years and by the end of BW, he'll most likely be the main character for a total of seventeen years, I don't think that the writers would have an issue with dragging out his story for twenty or thirty years.

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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    I think the closest we will ever be from getting rid of Ash is if they start to air Chronicals again. Ash and Pikachu are the series. Also they will never age. Pokemon anime is geared for younger kids. If they age Ash they risk not getting new veiwers. The writers have gone as far as they possibly can to change the series without any major risks. Their first experiment was with Brock. He left for a short time and the ratings showed that. When they found out they could get rid of Misty they did and so on. We are roatating characters, if you zoom off Ash, the series has changed conciderably from the first episode.

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    Registered User Blue1225's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    While I don't think that he's downgraded that much in BW, at least not to a newbie level, I also don't think that Ash will ever become one of the best trainers in the world during the course of the series. Pokemon does put more focus on the journey, rather than the end goal, and they also go with how trainers can always improve their skills. That's why we still saw Tyson traveling around after he won the Hoenn League, as well as the Coordinators who won the Grand Festivals in AG still traveling and training. So, even if they have Ash win a league, I could see them still keeping him around and traveling with the idea that there's always someone stronger out there and that he can always improve.



    True, although I still think that Dawn and arguably May were at least given a better sense of closure compared to the other main characters who were replaced.



    They've been going through the same routine for a long time and I still don't think that they're going to stop doing that anytime soon. While I honestly could see using a new male trainer every four or so years working out okay back in Johto or even AG when that was the second series technically, I think it's too late for them to experiment with something like that after keeping Ash for so long. Since they've kept Ash around for about fourteen years and by the end of BW, he'll most likely be the main character for a total of seventeen years, I don't think that the writers would have an issue with dragging out his story for twenty or thirty years.
    Exactly. Like I said, this show isn't like One Piece where the characters dreams are really the main goal of the series. Here everyone has a lifelong goal, but its become clear over time that what's important is the journey itself and I honestly don't ever see that ending.

    I kind of agree with you on the writers not wanting to take a risk like that at this point. Back in the early days it could've been done quite easily. However, I think it would've caused more fan outrage than it would now. Most old fans have moved on and most young fans wouldn't care. Its one of the reasons I think of Best Wishes as a Semi Reboot. Its as if the writers were honestly thinking about replacing Ash with Hilbert, but they weren't sure how fans would react so they didn't go all the way with it and settled for downgrading Ash back to mid Johto era.

    "Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled Trainers should try to win with the Pokémon they love best". -Karen

    "For every pokemon there is a purpose and a time when it can shine under the sun." -Blue1225

  6. #501
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd View Post
    I don't think Ash even has to become a Pokemon Master either by the end of the series. All we really need to see him is win one regional league and battle the Elite 4, and even if he loses to the Champion, I can see him being written out fine. A Pokemon Master is something I only see Ash becoming when he's an adult, somewhere around 30-50 years old, which obviously we'll never see unless there's some sort of "future montage" in the last episode that shows Ash as an adult or something.
    There are some E4 members which are pretty young (like Aaron) and Ash was always portrayed as some special trainer and above average when it comes to battling so i dont think it would take him 50 years or so to accomplish his goal.I dont think it would take that long to any of his traveling companions with Dawn almost becoming top coordinator at 10 speaking for itself.

    Not to mention whats the point in having Ash challenge E4 just to lose and be replaced without indication of his character making step forward being made?That would just be wasted potential and defeat purpose behind his traveling in first place not giving him any closure.

    There is no point in replacing Ash when writers can do much more with his character taking him forward by revealing what steps other than winning league he might need to take in order to become pokemon master.
    If character already has material to work with and appealing accepted among fans whats the point in getting rid of everything letting it go to waste?
    That would be just writers getting rid of their main source of money which helps attract new generations toward this show.

    All the other main characters were written off without achieving their goals. May and Dawn never won a Grand Festival, Misty never became a water pokemon master, Brock didn't become the worlds best breeder, and so on and so forth. The show is about the journey, not the destination.
    That may be true but May and Dawn at least were given some sort of closure by coming to realization how to achieve their dreams being written out in way which served as indication of further progress toward their dreams being made.Something i cant say for others.

    Until Ash comes to some significant acknowledge how to accomplish his dream and become developed enough to portray his notable progress forward in believable and non contrived way he should stay in this show.

    Pokemon may have been show about journey but at same time its show which is centralized around Ash quest of becoming pokemon master following his journey and improvement he makes.Until Ash at last comes close toward achievement of his ultimate goal allowing to write out his character with proper closure he should be kept as main star of this show.

    At current moment he clearly isnt ready yet to go on bigger things still having long way to go and learn.

    Ash should be written out because if the writers are going to go through the same routine, its much better to see a new male trainer every 4 years like they do with the female characters than see Ash dragged on for 20-30 years.
    Problem with is that traveling companions arent mascots of this show.If Ash lasted for only 4 to 5 years than he could be in theory replaced(although i still have doubts about that being immensely popular even than) but after being main star for 15 years it would be pointless to replace him with new protagonist starting to rotate cast of main protagonists like thy do with girls causing outrage from fanbase.

    People are already sick of constant cycling of female protagonists and i can only imagine how much displeasure would cause starting to do same thing by replacing someone who has been part of this show for so long.

    Not to mention its not like writers cant continue Ash journey after he wins league doing steps forward with there being much more required to accomplish his goal and im pretty sure people would rather want to follow gradual improvement of established character going on bigger things making further improvement with his story getting enriched.

    As opposite to rinse and repeat"newbie starts out journey,qualifies for league,fails at it and get replaced with another one after 4 years".There wouldnt be needed much time to pass for people to get sick of it.

    Which is another reason why Ash shouldnt be replaced since his leaving wouldnt bring anything new on table in end being completely pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceking18 View Post
    Pokemon anime is geared for younger kids. If they age Ash they risk not getting new veiwers.
    True,although some kids shows which age characters are doing well.But that happens rarely and doesnt always work.

    The writers have gone as far as they possibly can to change the series without any major risks. Their first experiment was with Brock. He left for a short time and the ratings showed that. When they found out they could get rid of Misty they did and so on. We are roatating characters, if you zoom off Ash, the series has changed conciderably from the first episode.
    They did,but both of this cases caused certain backlash from fanbase.It could be because of first group of characters being most recognizable and iconic in this show which leads me to believe how Ash being replaced might cause negative repercussions because of being most recognized and popular face of anime franchise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue1225 View Post
    I kind of agree with you on the writers not wanting to take a risk like that at this point. Back in the early days it could've been done quite easily. However, I think it would've caused more fan outrage than it would now. Most old fans have moved on and most young fans wouldn't care. Its one of the reasons I think of Best Wishes as a Semi Reboot. Its as if the writers were honestly thinking about replacing Ash with Hilbert, but they weren't sure how fans would react so they didn't go all the way with it and settled for downgrading Ash back to mid Johto era.
    If their intention was really to replace Ash,problem i have with this theory is that they still kept TR and connections with previous regions through some other older characters(like prof.Oak,Dehlia,Giovanni,Tracey etc).
    I dont think writers even considered to replace Ash at end of DP with main motivation behind several changes in anime happening most likely because of changes in games wanting to stay faithful toward interpretation of Unova as very far and isolated region.

    About possible risk of fan outrage in case of Ash being replaced i believe that is one of main reasons why writers dont want to replace him and in reality shouldnt.Its not only his popularity which plays role in here but also fact that most people associate show with Ash character being its mascot not being sure how would getting rid of main face of pokemon series after so long reflect on show popularity and would people be willing to accept such change.

    From what i noticed Ash is still very popular both among older fans and new kids having strong marketing value with ratings speaking for themselves with there rally not existing much of reason imo to get rid of him and risk potential drop of people interest for new series.

    I could see Ash being replaced after Kanto and maybe Johto but after being driving force for 15 years and still counting problem is that he became too integrated within anime and recognizable worldwide to expect his departure not causing any negative effect on franchise.
    There is also problem with Pikachu with Ash being connected with yellow rodent and i dont think it would be very wise to get rid of pokemon main mascot.

    Imo Ash should stay since he already has potential and stamina to last being more preferable to have pokemon treated as anime with continuity with older characters still existing and having chance to return because of it as opposite to end this show and start new series with new protagonist which will be very similar to Ash in terms of personality doing same quest.
    That would just ruin image of pokemon original show left among people with new series having trouble to get out of its shadow being viewed as cheap rehash.
    ed well among audience.
    What makes this series unique is fact that it has long term protagonist being treated as entity which isnt the case with many other anime around there and im prtty sure im not the only one who share this view.

  7. #502
    Registered User Blue1225's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    There are some E4 members which are pretty young (like Aaron) and Ash was always portrayed as some special trainer and above average when it comes to battling so i dont think it would take him 50 years or so to accomplish his goal.I dont think it would take that long to any of his traveling companions with Dawn almost becoming top coordinator at 10 speaking for itself.

    Not to mention whats the point in having Ash challenge E4 just to lose and be replaced without indication of his character making step forward being made?That would just be wasted potential and defeat purpose behind his traveling in first place not giving him any closure.

    There is no point in replacing Ash when writers can do much more with his character taking him forward by revealing what steps other than winning league he might need to take in order to become pokemon master.
    If character already has material to work with and appealing accepted among fans whats the point in getting rid of everything letting it go to waste?
    That would be just writers getting rid of their main source of money which helps attract new generations toward this show.



    That may be true but May and Dawn at least were given some sort of closure by coming to realization how to achieve their dreams being written out in way which served as indication of further progress toward their dreams being made.Something i cant say for others.

    Until Ash comes to some significant acknowledge how to accomplish his dream and become developed enough to portray his notable progress forward in believable and non contrived way he should stay in this show.

    Pokemon may have been show about journey but at same time its show which is centralized around Ash quest of becoming pokemon master following his journey and improvement he makes.Until Ash at last comes close toward achievement of his ultimate goal allowing to write out his character with proper closure he should be kept as main star of this show.

    At current moment he clearly isnt ready yet to go on bigger things still having long way to go and learn.



    Problem with is that traveling companions arent mascots of this show.If Ash lasted for only 4 to 5 years than he could be in theory replaced(although i still have doubts about that being immensely popular even than) but after being main star for 15 years it would be pointless to replace him with new protagonist starting to rotate cast of main protagonists like thy do with girls causing outrage from fanbase.

    People are already sick of constant cycling of female protagonists and i can only imagine how much displeasure would cause starting to do same thing by replacing someone who has been part of this show for so long.

    Not to mention its not like writers cant continue Ash journey after he wins league doing steps forward with there being much more required to accomplish his goal and im pretty sure people would rather want to follow gradual improvement of established character going on bigger things making further improvement with his story getting enriched.

    As opposite to rinse and repeat"newbie starts out journey,qualifies for league,fails at it and get replaced with another one after 4 years".There wouldnt be needed much time to pass for people to get sick of it.

    Which is another reason why Ash shouldnt be replaced since his leaving wouldnt bring anything new on table in end being completely pointless.



    True,although some kids shows which age characters are doing well.But that happens rarely and doesnt always work.



    They did,but both of this cases caused certain backlash from fanbase.It could be because of first group of characters being most recognizable and iconic in this show which leads me to believe how Ash being replaced might cause negative repercussions because of being most recognized and popular face of anime franchise.



    If their intention was really to replace Ash,problem i have with this theory is that they still kept TR and connections with previous regions through some other older characters(like prof.Oak,Dehlia,Giovanni,Tracey etc).
    I dont think writers even considered to replace Ash at end of DP with main motivation behind several changes in anime happening most likely because of changes in games wanting to stay faithful toward interpretation of Unova as very far and isolated region.

    About possible risk of fan outrage in case of Ash being replaced i believe that is one of main reasons why writers dont want to replace him and in reality shouldnt.Its not only his popularity which plays role in here but also fact that most people associate show with Ash character being its mascot not being sure how would getting rid of main face of pokemon series after so long reflect on show popularity and would people be willing to accept such change.

    From what i noticed Ash is still very popular both among older fans and new kids having strong marketing value with ratings speaking for themselves with there rally not existing much of reason imo to get rid of him and risk potential drop of people interest for new series.

    I could see Ash being replaced after Kanto and maybe Johto but after being driving force for 15 years and still counting problem is that he became too integrated within anime and recognizable worldwide to expect his departure not causing any negative effect on franchise.
    There is also problem with Pikachu with Ash being connected with yellow rodent and i dont think it would be very wise to get rid of pokemon main mascot.

    Imo Ash should stay since he already has potential and stamina to last being more preferable to have pokemon treated as anime with continuity with older characters still existing and having chance to return because of it as opposite to end this show and start new series with new protagonist which will be very similar to Ash in terms of personality doing same quest.
    That would just ruin image of pokemon original show left among people with new series having trouble to get out of its shadow being viewed as cheap rehash.
    ed well among audience.
    What makes this series unique is fact that it has long term protagonist being treated as entity which isnt the case with many other anime around there and im prtty sure im not the only one who share this view.
    Maybe its just me, but Ash has never come off as some type of battling prodigy. He's never come off as being anymore talented than Gary or Paul or anyother trainer he's met his age. Because as amazing as it might be for him to beat adult gym leaders, everyone of his rivals did the same exact thing.

    I'm not saying they meant to replace Ash with Best Wishes. I simply think it was an argument on the table and that they made Best Wishes as sort of a compromise.

    "Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled Trainers should try to win with the Pokémon they love best". -Karen

    "For every pokemon there is a purpose and a time when it can shine under the sun." -Blue1225

  8. #503

    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    In BW there's really no sense that he's progressing. There are times when it's a welcome sight to see glimpses of the old Ash, and then all of the sudden he takes 2-3 steps back. Perhaps it has with the fact that he has to be the "newbie" of the group given that he's traveling with the 1st, and 8th gym leaders..but I still believe he could have been kept competent regardless of that fact. It seems they are treating him as such to make them look better, if the results of the Don Battle tournament is any indication.

    Point is...Ash seems far, far more scatter-brained and less skilled than he ever was in Hoenn, or Sinnoh.
    Last edited by Masurao; 2nd October 2011 at 12:16 PM.

  9. #504

    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    I've said many times that BW Ash feels a lot like Johto Ash. He hasn't been reset all the way to his Kanto days, but he definitely feels a lot like he was in Johto.

    In Johto he was slightly better than he was in Kanto but still not a great trainer overall. That's what BW Ash feels like to me.

  10. #505

    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    BW Ash feels a lot like Hoenn Ash. He hasn't been reset all the way to his OS days, but he definitely feels a lot like he was in Hoenn.

    In Hoenn he was slightly better than he was in OS but still not a great trainer overall. That's what BW Ash feels like to me.
    1. Satoshi/Ash Ketchum: 801 episodes
    2. Team Rocket: 736 episodes
    3. Takeshi/Brock: 633 episodes
    4. Kasumi/Misty: 282 episodes
    5. Hikari/Dawn: 201 episodes
    6. Haruka/May: 197 episodes
    7. Masato/Max: 192 episodes
    8. Iris: 141 episodes
    9. Dent/Cilan: 138 episodes
    10. Kenji/Tracey: 44 episodes

  11. #506

    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Hey, all.
    Try to discuss the question of whether or not you feel Satoshi has been reset in its proper thread please.


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  12. #507
    Because I can. Caseydia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    No he should be not.

  13. #508

    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    He should be replaced. Although I was getting bored with Ash's personality when we were in DP, I still accepted him because he had become a good trainer with a strong pokemon team. He wasn't perfect, but given who he is, that was probably the best we'll ever see him battling.

    It honestly seems as if DP was written in such a way that it was intended to be the climax of Ash's on-screen journey, but of course the writers weren't allowed to get rid of him.

  14. #509
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Best Wishes is handling him so poorly that they should just get rid of him spend some time on preproduction and give us something good. They need a change in philosophy and keeping Ash keeps the old philosophy.

  15. #510
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Even if they were to rid of him, they would still start off with some other boy and make him a beginner. With this at least we still know who he is even though we might not like his development.

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