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  1. #256
    Crimson Fighter PhilosophyPhlare's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post


    Whats the point in replacing Ash with someone who will follow same storyline like he does doing gyms,carrying Pikachu having more or less similar personality so that little kids could easier relate to him?

    Writers wont cater to older fans who represent minority which is going way of dinosaurs starting to extinct.Otherwise something would change already. They only care about new kids who dont have any problem with Ash.
    Bah as I said kids to care if there characters are compelling otherwise we would not become obsessive fans. "Treat them like they are smart and they will be smart" as one man said. What is this more or less the same stuff my example "Pike" is completely relate-able and completely different. You completely missed my point. And yes I know others still like ash but read the name of the thread. Not to mention I used the word "as". It is easily possible that kids will like the new character more. Just because they are fine with a character doesn't mean squat they if the can really dig something else. When I was in my last years of elementary school Ash seemed boring to me and I liked him in earlier episodes. If I can have this opinion as a kid then my points are valid if the audience are kids which is your point. So do you want me to show you when I made "Pike" and how he is like? Do you want me to make others to further prove my point? Cause I can do both

  2. #257
    pokemon fan 132 pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd View Post
    Replace Satoshi with "Takeshi" and you could have said the same thing about him for every saga before BW. And before you say this is off topic, I'm just saying the writers made the bizarre decision to keep Brock two generations after Johto when they could have dropped him the same time Misty left, so its not any different than their decision for Ash.
    Im not sure how can you compare departures of supporting characters with someone like Ash who is main star of this show?

    Replacing someone like Brock,Misty,May etc is much easier than trying to replace someone like Ash who is driving force of this show with whole plot and story revolving mainly around his journey through regions.
    Difference is that traveling companions are expendable to writers while Ash isnt with this move bringing potential consequence which they dont want to cause.Fact that Ash has been kept for so long shows how writers dont have any plans to get rid of him.

    Up to DP, the writers wanted Brock around, then they started realizing his character had become dry, so they dropped him when the saga ended. Up till BW, the writers realize they want Ash, but that is not to say they'll always think the same.
    If that was reason they would replace Brock at end of Johto or Heenn instead of keeping him for so long.Reason why Brock got replaced is more due to fact of BW games changing several things axing contests and portraying Unova as far and isolated region with writers wanting to mirror that change with anime as much as they can making Ash journey to Unova as more of fresh start than it was case with previous sagas.

    If BW games didnt changed thematic and formula so much Brock would most likely stay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alphaphlare View Post
    Bah as I said kids to care if there characters are compelling otherwise we would not become obsessive fans. "Treat them like they are smart and they will be smart" as one man said. What is this more or less the same stuff my example "Pike" is completely relate-able and completely different. You completely missed my point. And yes I know others still like ash but read the name of the thread. Not to mention I used the word "as". It is easily possible that kids will like the new character more. Just because they are fine with a character doesn't mean squat they if the can really dig something else. When I was in my last years of elementary school Ash seemed boring to me and I liked him in earlier episodes. If I can have this opinion as a kid then my points are valid if the audience are kids which is your point. So do you want me to show you when I made "Pike" and how he is like? Do you want me to make others to further prove my point? Cause I can do both
    Which brings us again to this question.If young kids already accept current main protagonist finding him entertaining with Ash fulfilling his job of attracting new generations to anime more than well enough what is the point in replacing him?

    Why should writers and producers replace Ash when he does already his job good enough and risk everything?They probably took in consideration option of replacing him already weighting out possibilities in end deciding to keep him because of not wanting to take risk which is most certainly involved when trying to axe main star of this show after being kept for so long.

    Like i already mentioned with examples of some other pokemon characters being replaced in past fans doesnt always react positively on such changes which resulted in good chunk of them leaving show in protest.
    But its not only pokemon,several examples from other anime showed how audience doesnt always accept main star of some show being replaced with new one.

    For example when writers tried to replace Goku with Gohan in DBZ this resulted in huge repercussions,new hero Jaden from Yugioh GX was poorly received with TV ratings sinking very low and replacement of main protagonists in other anime like Beyblade wasnt received very well either.

    Writers had their chance to replace Ash couple of times in past but after being kept for 14 years his character became too iconic to this show with people identifying pokemon with him viewing it as journey about 10 year old from Pallet on his road to become pokemon master,.Ash is extremely popular,he proved to have good marketing value becoming mascot of this show along with pikachu bringing writers and producers required money so in reality they dont have any valid reason to get rid of their "cash cow".
    Not to mention its easier for them and less of work to just keep current already halfway developed character like Ash just picking up from where they stopped instead of having to restart show introducing another new protagonist with who they would have to start everything from zero creating new characteristics,back story etc.Its different with his traveling companions because with them main stricture of this show doesnt need to be changed not revolving around their story(definitely not to same extent like its case with Ash).

    Especially when they dont have enough factors on their disposal to make new protagonist distinct enough.There isnt much they could do with new character with basic formula being unchanged.At end of the day we would end up with very similar character to Ash sharing similar traits in order to appeal to new kids,same mascot being Pikachu following same route of development of going from region to region collecting badges and entering leagues.
    Who would want to follow some cheap clone going through same all predictable route Ash went through?I know i wouldnt being more than fine with Ash being kept still enjoying in his journeys of exploring new regions,meeting new friends developing as character and trainer.

    At this point Ash became too much integrated within this show with people becoming attached to him viewing it as someone who brings identity to pokemon series being recognized worldwide as such.Trying to risk everything they achieved which could result in severe drop of TV ratings with several fans losing interest for new series(like it was case already with many other shows)losing their main source of money is simply unneeded especially when there exist very good chance of whole attempt resulting with catastrophe.

  3. #258
    Registered User JohnnyCool708's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    After seeing the short lived, "Pokemon Chronicles" brought up, I had to comment before completing my thread recap.
    If Pokemon Chronicles was any indication at all what a non-Ash/Pikachu anime would be like (Sparky my foot), and considering how unsuccesful in retrospect it really was, I doubt the writers would venture down that same path again. As I had said previously, (and excuse my fallaciousness) Ash=Pikachu, Pikachu=Pokemon Company which is a multimillion dollar franchise so therefore Ash/Pikachu=$$$.

    Regardless of the original motives of Pokemon's creators, it is obvious that the continuation of the series has been largely cash driven. So, why would Ash and the real Pikachu be removed if it would be a proven risky move that could drop ratings and cash intake? Even though it is possible that it could happen, there is no way in hell that it would even be considered beyond simple brainstorming. The proponents so far of Ash being replaced are not giving specific reasons why Ash should/will be removed, but instead are providing wishful thinking and repetitive answers over their proposed "reboot".

    Honestly, in no forseeable future can Ash being replaced weigh against logic of the real world an even the storyline of the anime itself.

    Furthermore, even if he was replaced (which he most certainly will not be) fans would get overlynostalgic and call the new MC an "Ash ripoff" or whatever. Replacing Ash, fanbase wise (which includes all important ratings), would have more backlash then keeping him around. The fact of the matter is that the new MC would have to to fulfill the same optimistic, naive, friendship loving Ash who has the same goals and only personality changes are provided by the surrounding characters. Replacing Ash would really end the anime itself, honestly. It would have to be called something else to distinguish it from the original series. The character in lieu of him would be twice as bland and half as developed. Said new series would might as well be Chronicles.

    On a side note, since I brought up Chronicles, wouldn't it be brilliant to promote the possible R/S remakes by doing specials of Max's travels through Hoenn? It wouldn't be too much but would promote getting the game to a lot of younger viewers. A brilliant marketing scheme in my opinion. Otherwise they should definitely use him somehow to promote everything.


    And as a shoutout to the mods I think this thread's title should be changed to "Will Satoshi be Replaced?", because that's what most of this debate is about, not just people listing their opinions. But that's just my point of view, no demands coming from me.
    Last edited by JohnnyCool708; 16th July 2011 at 12:13 PM.
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  4. #259

    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCool708 View Post
    Furthermore, even if he was replaced (which he most certainly will not be) fans would get overlynostalgic and call the new MC an "Ash ripoff" or whatever. Replacing Ash, fanbase wise (which includes all important ratings), would have more backlash then keeping him around.
    LOL, no it wouldn't. For many reasons, a large chunk of the older fanbase does want Ash gone, so I don't see who is getting "overlynostalgic" as you put it. Other than us, little kids have only been watching Ash for a few years, so they can't get, "nostalgic" about it, at least not until they get older.

    Lastly, you think the writers give a crap about nostalgia? This is why people bring up Charizard and Pidgeot to this day, yet they do not appear in the anime (especially in Pidgeot's case). The writers don't give a crap about nostalgic pokemon fans, almost everything from the original series has either been tossed out or completely swept aside besides those few moments.

    Bringing up nostalgia is also the WORST argument, because now that the show has gone on for so long, some kids started watching either Hoenn or Sinnoh as their "first" sagas, and thus don't have the same type of nostalgia toward Ash that Kanto-fans might have.

  5. #260

    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Let's make it simple for the younger fanbase:

    "Writers does care about the nostalgic fans, Satoshi should leave!"
    "Writers does care about the nostalgic fans, Satoshi shouldn't leave!"
    "Writers doesn't care about the nostalgic fans, Satoshi should leave!"
    "Writers doesn't care about the nostalgic fans, Satoshi shouldn't leave!"

    Interesting arguements...
    1. Satoshi/Ash Ketchum: 879 episodes
    2. Team Rocket: 799 episodes
    3. Takeshi/Brock: 634 episodes
    4. Kasumi/Misty: 282 episodes
    5. Hikari/Dawn: 201 episodes
    6. Haruka/May: 197 episodes
    7. Masato/Max: 192 episodes
    8. Iris: 142 episodes
    9. Dent/Cilan: 139 episodes
    10. Citron/Clemont: 78 episodes
    11. Eureka/Bonnie: 78 episodes
    12. Serena: 78 episodes
    13. Kenji/Tracey: 44 episodes

  6. #261

    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    That's my point, since when have the writers ever given a crap about nostalgia? The handful of references to the past we get feel more like "miracles" rather than something the writers go out of their way to bring up.

    Kids haven't been watching Ash for more than 2-3 years and anyone else is way too old and out of the target range. Replacing Ash is like seeing Dawn go after 4 years.

  7. #262
    Registered User JohnnyCool708's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd View Post
    LOL, no it wouldn't. For many reasons, a large chunk of the older fanbase does want Ash gone, so I don't see who is getting "overlynostalgic" as you put it. Other than us, little kids have only been watching Ash for a few years, so they can't get, "nostalgic" about it, at least not until they get older.

    Lastly, you think the writers give a crap about nostalgia? This is why people bring up Charizard and Pidgeot to this day, yet they do not appear in the anime (especially in Pidgeot's case). The writers don't give a crap about nostalgic pokemon fans, almost everything from the original series has either been tossed out or completely swept aside besides those few moments.
    My other arguments prove the point in their own right. I used the nostalgia argument as a representation for the backlash it would cause among the fanbase. You have my assurance that there would be other effects. Also, Scott, who is to say that those mid-aged fans that you just brought up won't be upset? Regardless, my point was that among the group who wants Ash gone, no matter the age, a significant portion would find more problems with the new MC than Ash.

    All other anime arguments aside, it is definitely not a wise move for the company to do it, as it would cause extreme reprecussions.

    Furthermore, I am sure that a large quantity of the target fanbase is aware of the history of Pokemon- either from older friends or the various re-runs. The knowledge of children when paired with their curiosity should not be underestimated. Therefore, it is not like seeing Dawn go, especially since it's quite obvious Ash is the main character.

    Nostalgia maybe a bad word to use, since it also represents the older fanbase. How about if I put it rather simply? Some who wanted Ash gone would regret wanting him to leave after realizing the new character is twice as boring/predictable while half as developed.

    All you have done, or at least you thought you have, is disprove minor anime wise arguments that are being used to connect with those who aren't completely aware of the Pokemon company's functions as a whole. Besides doing this throughout this thread and exhibiting wishful thinking, the proponents, if I may say led by you Scott, have not brought up any logical arguments on WHY Ash should be replaced. Many a user has been waiting for this in frustration. Please provide some reasoning that in your opinion outweighs the backlash it would probably have, which you know it will. Or at least try and disprove a MAJOR argument with reasoning instead of just stalling.

    Bringing up nostalgia is also the WORST argument, because now that the show has gone on for so long, some kids started watching either Hoenn or Sinnoh as their "first" sagas, and thus don't have the same type of nostalgia toward Ash that Kanto-fans might have. And to martianmister- that's not really a summary of the major arguments.
    Last edited by JohnnyCool708; 17th July 2011 at 11:50 AM.
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  8. #263
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Oh, those specials they came out with for the other characters, did they do okay in Japan?

  9. #264
    Registered User JohnnyCool708's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    It really wasn't as successful as it was planned to be.
    I just ate my breakfastlunchndinner

    I can afford a roof over my head

    I do not pay rent
    And my Vote Belongs to Jimmy McMillan
    For PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

    BECAUSE THE RENT IS TOO DAMN HIGH!
    AND THE WEATHER IS ALSO TOO DAMN COLD! RITDHP FTW!

  10. #265

    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCool708 View Post
    After seeing the short lived, "Pokemon Chronicles" brought up, I had to comment before completing my thread recap.
    If Pokemon Chronicles was any indication at all what a non-Ash/Pikachu anime would be like (Sparky my foot), and considering how unsuccesful in retrospect it really was, I doubt the writers would venture down that same path again.
    It wasn't unsuccessful. If it was, they wouldn't have kept making these specials.
    So.

  11. #266

    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamant View Post
    It wasn't unsuccessful. If it was, they wouldn't have kept making these specials.
    It had way less rating's than the Pokemon series had though, think how much lower the rating's Pokemon would have if Ash got replaced, it'd take such a dive.
    Ash fan. Multi Ash shipper =]

  12. #267
    ロケット団よ永遠 Dogasu's Avatar Retired Staff
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    They also aired sporadically (we'd sometimes go six months without a special) on a day people weren't used to watching Pocket Monsters (Tuesday). Oh, and they were almost never promoted.

    Besides that, TV ratings mean almost nothing in Japan. The merchandise sales are what's keeping Pocket Monsters on the air.
    Webmaster of Dogasu's Backpack. Last updated on July 21st, 2015


  13. #268

    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Also, the ratings weren't "way less". SPH was less popular than the main series (imagine, a spinoff largely consisting of clip shows and direct product advertisement doing worse than the main series!!), but got around the same amount of viewers as the main series gets today. Also, when these specials were aired, the ratings usually shot up to somewhere around the level of viewers the main series got at the time.


    So, uh, are you just making up facts to suit your argument and hoping no one bothers to check them, here?

    Let's look at the ratings for March 2004 here, shall we?

    6.0 2004/3/2 SPH 65
    7.0 2004/3/4 AG 66
    6.7 2004/3/9 SPH 66
    7.7 2004/3/11 AG 67
    8.2 2004/3/16 SPH 67 (Shigeru special)
    8.8 2004/3/18 AG 68
    5.0 2004/3/23 SPH 68
    8.4 2004/3/25 AG 69
    5.5 2004/3/30 SPH 69

    The ratings bob a bit up and down, but AG isn't exactly miles and miles ahead, here.
    Last edited by Adamant; 17th July 2011 at 07:58 PM.
    So.

  14. #269
    Crimson Fighter PhilosophyPhlare's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Which brings us again to this question.If young kids already accept current main protagonist finding him entertaining with Ash fulfilling his job of attracting new generations to anime more than well enough what is the point in replacing him?

    Why should writers and producers replace Ash when he does already his job good enough and risk everything?They probably took in consideration option of replacing him already weighting out possibilities in end deciding to keep him because of not wanting to take risk which is most certainly involved when trying to axe main star of this show after being kept for so long.

    Like i already mentioned with examples of some other pokemon characters being replaced in past fans doesnt always react positively on such changes which resulted in good chunk of them leaving show in protest.
    But its not only pokemon,several examples from other anime showed how audience doesnt always accept main star of some show being replaced with new one.

    For example when writers tried to replace Goku with Gohan in DBZ this resulted in huge repercussions,new hero Jaden from Yugioh GX was poorly received with TV ratings sinking very low and replacement of main protagonists in other anime like Beyblade wasnt received very well either.

    Writers had their chance to replace Ash couple of times in past but after being kept for 14 years his character became too iconic to this show with people identifying pokemon with him viewing it as journey about 10 year old from Pallet on his road to become pokemon master,.Ash is extremely popular,he proved to have good marketing value becoming mascot of this show along with pikachu bringing writers and producers required money so in reality they dont have any valid reason to get rid of their "cash cow".
    Not to mention its easier for them and less of work to just keep current already halfway developed character like Ash just picking up from where they stopped instead of having to restart show introducing another new protagonist with who they would have to start everything from zero creating new characteristics,back story etc.Its different with his traveling companions because with them main stricture of this show doesnt need to be changed not revolving around their story(definitely not to same extent like its case with Ash).

    Especially when they dont have enough factors on their disposal to make new protagonist distinct enough.There isnt much they could do with new character with basic formula being unchanged.At end of the day we would end up with very similar character to Ash sharing similar traits in order to appeal to new kids,same mascot being Pikachu following same route of development of going from region to region collecting badges and entering leagues.
    Who would want to follow some cheap clone going through same all predictable route Ash went through?I know i wouldnt being more than fine with Ash being kept still enjoying in his journeys of exploring new regions,meeting new friends developing as character and trainer.

    At this point Ash became too much integrated within this show with people becoming attached to him viewing it as someone who brings identity to pokemon series being recognized worldwide as such.Trying to risk everything they achieved which could result in severe drop of TV ratings with several fans losing interest for new series(like it was case already with many other shows)losing their main source of money is simply unneeded especially when there exist very good chance of whole attempt resulting with catastrophe.
    About your question did you even read my post. Satoshi bored me as a kid so who's to say all child viewers think he's perfect. I came out of the origanal series raring to go with a new adventure but AG didn't do it for me as much as I hoped. So, I think it is very possible for a child veiwer not to care about Ash that much. He's peaked with Paul. Paul made him fun to watch again but I skeptical that they can do that again. So they can cut him. Anyone who would leave would have left already. And he very well can be different!

  15. #270

    Default Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

    I agree that DP finished Ash's development, as a kid at least. He triumphed over his greatest rival, he battled the strongest Gym leaders in the anime, he took down the most evil enemies in the series yet, and he really should have won the Sinnoh league if not for the plot device that was Tobias.

    In Best Wishes, it feels like the opposite. Trip is a forced rival, the Gym leaders feel weaker, and his team thus far has a way to go before they develop.

    I knew this would happen. Before Best Wishes, you felt like Ash's character was going somewhere and getting gradually better and more mature. AG Ash was nothing like he was in the first few seasons, and DP Ash, although somewhat stale, felt like he was at his best in terms of trainer strength.

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