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  1. #46
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    Default Re: Did you like Dawn's role on the show?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    - Jessie started off as a much more competent rival, but what do the writers do? Her battle in the GF against Dawn is given 1 minute of screentime where she's knocked out with little effort. Essentially making the whole aspect of Jessie being more of a threat to be pointless.
    Personally, I never saw Jessie as one of Dawn's rivals. They didn't interact that most of their Contests and it just felt like two different storylines for their characters. I don't think that their terribly rushed battle makes Jessie being able to make it to the Grand Festival pointless, as it still provided Jessie with some nice character development and I was more interested in her storyline than Dawn's most of the time. But it does feel like they ruined the potential the Grand Festival had by rushing through most of the battles and only letting the audience see two of Dawn's battles completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd View Post
    By the time Dawn was leaving the show, yes she became a very strong coordinator, but also relatively unchanged...with underwhelming rivalries that went nowhere and will probably wind up being forgotten. Her pokemon team which had the potential to be the best, wound up falling apart by the end. Were Cyndaquil and Togekiss really needed that late, really? Did Ambipom have to be released for the stupidest reason?
    I didn't think that Cyndaquil was added in that late. I seem to recall that it was used in one or two appeal rounds and in that extremely rushed battle with Jessie. While it was added on a bit late into the series, I think that it had some decent screentime. Though, I agree that Ambipom was released for a really weak reason, especially when it really ruined the impact of the trade she made with Ash and they only had her give away Ambipom so they could make room for Togekiss, which turned out to be a completely pointless capture done so in such a terrible way that it still bothers me. I think that if Dawn had better and/or more interesting rivals, she could have had more personal development. Outside of her losing streak arc, it felt like most of her journey didn't affect her on a personal level, but rather just make her more determined to train and achieve her goal. She's still is a pretty likable character, but I agree that personality-wise, she didn't change drastically by the end of the series. At most, she seemed to handle her defeats much better than she did during her losing streak, although at times it felt like she took them too well, but that's the most I think she changed on a personal level.

  2. #47

    Default Re: Did you like Dawn's role on the show?

    Cyndaquil had 1 Contest battle (the final Ursula one), did an appeal in the GF and then got that short 1 minute battle against Jessie. That's barely anything. It was a last minute pokemon because HGSS came out too close to the end of the generation.

    I remember at DP's start everyone thought Dawn would capture a lot of pokemon and be more of a battler, but this was all toned down very quickly.

  3. #48
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    Default Re: Did you like Dawn's role on the show?

    Dawn can go jump in a lake for all I care. There's plenty around Sinnoh.

    I admit, I'm usually not overly-fond of really peppy, girly, fashion-loving characters in general, but this doesn't mean that I don't think they can be done well or that they can't be effective characters. The problem with Dawn, however, is that she was practically shoved in our faces throughout the entire series. To me, it didn't feel like she was sharing the spotlight with Ash - it felt like she was trying to usurp it. Every time I saw an episode, the only thing about Dawn that changed was her team of pokemon (not that you'd know even that, considering the only thing she ever used was that annoying penguin, but I'll get to him later). She was exactly the same throughout the entire series, and given how god-awfully long Sinnoh was, she had plenty of time for character development.

    Everything about her felt forced. Her personality felt forced, her dialogue felt forced, her interactions with both people and pokemon felt forced, even her plotlines felt forced. I thought the plotline about Ambipom being given to Dawn because it liked contests was smart, and a good development for both of them, but in the end, I rarely saw Dawn actually use Ambipom in any contest. Frankly, I'm amazed that the writers allowed her to have any sort of "losing streak" at all, however brief it was. She was peppy and confident but when she lost, EVERYONE around her was pitying her and sympathizing for her, and, at least to me, her losses seemed more like a run of contrived bad luck than a lack of any actual skill. I never saw her do any special work or training to start winning again, either.

    I say contrived bad luck because I freely admit I am VERY bitter about her winning against May. May had more experience, more skill, and more training. Yes, I know that if we upheld that logic to Ash's gym battles he'd still be back in Kanto, but May was the grand champion of Hoenn. One of, if not the best coordinator in the region. She earned her spot in the top. But in her very first Sinnoh contest, she loses to some rookie all because said rookie is the new main character and she was using the new mascot in the battle. Dawn wins and succeeds because she is a main character - left to her own devices, she is no more skilled or memorable than any of her oft-bashed boring rivals.

    And that Piplup. My. God. That Piplup. I know it's Japan and the Japanese have different tastes than Americans, but dear LORD was that thing annoying. It's dub voice didn't help it at all - its constant high-pitched squeaking is actually the reason I stopped regularly watching the anime and started only watching plot-important episodes when I read the summaries. It also felt like less of a co-star to Pikachu than a replacement. His interactions with Dawn were never that great, to me. They were written to be two separate characters rather than a team, and as such, Piplup falls into the same trap of Dawn not having any personal chemistry with anyone. Their bond didn't feel like the one between Ash's and Pikachu's because it was one-sided. Piplup was introduced as a bit of an entitled little brat, but as soon as Dawn helped him get away from the Ariados, she decided they were best buddies and Piplup's personality was regulated to comic relief. Also, side note: the whole not-wanting-to-evolve plotline worked for Pikachu because it was clear that Pikachu had a personal goal to overcome. Pikachu wasn't strong enough to defeat his evolved form, and he and Ash were stuck and couldn't progress. Pikachu's relationship with Ash had actually developed naturally to the point where Ash's success was a major factor in Pikachu's decision about evolving. It was complex and actually a rather deep character study, and to me one of the highlights of Kanto. Meowth didn't want to evolve because of his backstory, and his grudge against the Persian who stole Meowsie from him. It was a simple reason, and actually rather similar to Piplup's (in that his pride kept him from evolving because he felt he could protect those around him without needing to), but Meowth pulled it off better because he could speak for himself and enunciate his reasons without needing everyone around him to guess.

    I suppose that's in character for Dawn, seeing as how she loves to be in the spotlight all the time, but to me, her biggest problem was the fact that she completely overshadowed everyone else, and had nothing interesting to do with the attention she craved so much. To me, that's what her character boils down to: an attention whore.
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  4. #49
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    Default Re: Did you like Dawn's role on the show?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd View Post
    Cyndaquil had 1 Contest battle (the final Ursula one), did an appeal in the GF and then got that short 1 minute battle against Jessie. That's barely anything. It was a last minute pokemon because HGSS came out too close to the end of the generation.
    Considering when Cyndaquil was captured, that sounds like pretty decent screentime to me. It was captured pretty late due to when HG/SS came out, but unlike Togekiss, Cyndaquil actually helped her with her Contest arc, even if it was just her last ribbon, and it didn't feel completely unnecessary as a result. It definitely could have benefited from more screentime, or at least been in a single battle, but it got a fairly decent amount of screentime for a Pokemon introduced fairly late into the series. Besides that, it's much better than what Togekiss ended up getting and I see that as being much more of a last minute Pokemon than Dawn's Cyndaquil. The way they basically handed Togekiss to Dawn made me think that the writers just wanted her to have a fully evolved sixth Pokemon for her team before the Grand Festival, even though they already had that with Ambipom before they gave it away for some odd reason, and forgot about it until just a few minutes before the Grand Festival.

  5. #50

    Default Re: Did you like Dawn's role on the show?

    The fact that the writers barely made an effort to distinguish Cyndaquil's personality from Ash's says a lot, and as a baby, it was already powerful right after hatching.

    It was clearly just there for a quick HGSS advertisement, nothing more, nothing less. It shared its Contest debut with Mamoswine and its screentime in the GF amounted to about 1 minute and 30 seconds of screentime.

  6. #51
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    Default Re: Did you like Dawn's role on the show?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd View Post
    The fact that the writers barely made an effort to distinguish Cyndaquil's personality from Ash's says a lot, and as a baby, it was already powerful right after hatching.
    Dawn's Cyndaquil didn't really remind me that much of Ash's Cyndaquil. Ash's Cyndquil was more laid-back, while Dawn's kind of acted like a young Pokemon, especially with its reactions to Piplup. Though, I agree that it was already pretty powerful so soon after hatching, which was a bit jarring, but I just went with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
    It was clearly just there for a quick HGSS advertisement, nothing more, nothing less. It shared its Contest debut with Mamoswine and its screentime in the GF amounted to about 1 minute and 30 seconds of screentime.
    I was never trying to deny that it wasn't there for HG/SS advertisement. The fact that the episode where she got Cyndaquil was basically a huge ad for HG/SS alone makes that clear. I'm just trying to say that for a Pokemon that was caught fairly late into the series, it had pretty decent amount of screentime. It's not an amazing amount and like I said before, it still could have received more, but Cyndaquil actually helped Dawn get her last ribbon and was the few Pokemon on her team that didn't annoy me or felt forgettable. I think that the only last minute Pokemon Dawn really got was Togekiss. The writing for how she got a fully evolved Pokemon was just terrible, it felt extremely forced, it took away the screentime that could have been used to give some of Dawn's already established Pokemon some more training before the Grand Festival and it ended up only being used for the final round of the Grand Festival. Even if Dawn had been able to defeat Zoey, Togekiss's capture would still feel really unnecessary and forced.

  7. #52
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    Default Re: Did you like Dawn's role on the show?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd View Post
    Other than Tracey and Max, (who were purposely minor characters to begin with), and before Brock became background in DP, all the other characters did change quite a bit over the course of their runs.
    Frankly, I don't see why all the other characters changed more than Dawn. (I guess, the fact that May finally overcame her fear of Pokemon or that Misty became a little bit more competent towards the end can't really be considered as personality development)

    But alright, let's assume Dawn hasn't changed at all over the course of time (something I absolutely don't agree to, but for now let's just assume it). Now let me ask you this simple question:
    Why change something if it's already working well? You surely know the saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". So, why does a character have to change their personality at all costs in order for you to like them or to regard them as good or interesting?

    The best example is a character who I know like the back of my hand, Cynthia: As she's already perfect, there is no need for her to change in any regard, and still, she was and always will be the greatest character ever.

    I'm not saying that Dawn was perfect but what I am trying to say is that compared to Ash's other female companions, she was by far the best and most interesting one. You might disagree with me but I see no reason why Dawn should have changed so radically.
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  8. #53

    Default Re: Did you like Dawn's role on the show?

    If characters don't change or grow, why are we watching them? A main character is different than a Gym leader that we only see for a few eps.

    All of Dawn's development was her skill as a coordinator. But the character herself didn't really grow. Her depression streak faded and she went back to the way she was before. Is there any difference between DP191 Dawn or DP46 Dawn outside of Contests?

  9. #54
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    Default Re: Did you like Dawn's role on the show?

    Dawn is one of the better-developed Coordinators/side-characters we've had on the show. She had a good motive to become great (better than Ash, at any rate) seeing as her mother is a boss. She seems to start off quite well, and then slumps. Perfect. Absolutely like what happened to May near the end of BF. Except it was not at a critical moment like May's situation. We see Dawn strive for betterment, amply deal with her Mamoswine much better than Ash dealt with Charizard, despite setbacks become inventive to the point of actually assisting Ash's battling style (to where they became key tactics). Inventing very creative moves after much trial and error unlike Ash's famous situations (Thunder Armor anyone?). Having a very notable back story that was developed as the story proceeded.

    Unlike many people, I felt her 2nd place finish in the Grand Festival was deserved. Dawn seemed like a Champion-class Coordinator at the end of the series, after all the skill and power she exhibited by that time. I did like Zoey winning though. She is boss, and Dawn would have crossed the border to being Mary Sue is she had claimed victory as a noob. But come on, 180 odd episodes? Plenty of time to get good.

  10. #55

    Default Re: Did you like Dawn's role on the show?

    Yes I loved Dawn's role on the show. I find her character to be very interesting and I'm glad that she got alot of screentime.

  11. #56

    Default Re: Did you like Dawn's role on the show?

    Whilst I've never been mad about her, I've never been obcessed with her either. She's a mixed bag. On the one hand her development as a co-ordinator and relationship with Satoshi, Kouhei, and others was excellent. On the other her rivals weren't as great as they could have been and there wasn't much that she did with Takeshi (though I think that that was more Takeshi's fault than hers). I liked the fact that she was a feminine character and equal to Satoshi and I liked some of her pokemon. Unfortunatly, her pokemon suffered from being shafted or overexposed. I always enjoyed her contests but I think that that's more because contests were becoming more contesty under her anyway. Other all, I think she fitted in well with DP and that's the main thing. Plus she never got on my nerves even when she could have done.

  12. #57
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    Default Re: Did you like Dawn's role on the show?

    I actually liked Dawn. I enjoyed seeing her and her Pokemon. I though Buneary's crush and personality was cute, I liked Piplup didn't really find it as nearly annoying as everyone else, Pachirisu got a tad annoying after a while, Swinub's quick evolution left me cold and not really caring for it too much especially since I really liked, "Hungry for the Good Life.", Ambipom's release defiantly could have been handled much better in my opinion as well as evolution, and Togekiss was nice, I liked it's motherly personality. I don't see why people call Togekiss cheap, sure it was given to Dawn and not caught but, still she did do some training with it and battled Team Rocket with it. Cyndaquil should have been caught early and gone through more development rather then being strong from the start.

    I liked how Dawn was always nice and friendly and caring. But, what I didn't like was how she was such a princess and focused on looks and appearances, in "Pokemon Fashion Flash" Misty thought the exact same thing that it was about being beautiful on the inside and not on the outside, by the end of that episode of course Ash and Brock are right and she gets some sweet poetic justice by having her ass roasted by a Firespin from Vulpix, and she learns she was wrong I would have defiantly liked something like that with Dawn, especially since I thought her being a girly girl was something they were gonna expand on, but I guess they were simple throwaway gags. But, I think the main problem people have with her is her rivals. Kenny bored me, Zoey pretty much taught Dawn everything like a mentor which made it obvious Dawn wasn't going to surpass her and killed a lot of her appearances for me, Nando had a lot of potential but sadly was underutilized, and Ursula was the first real legitimate threat I feel she had. I just stopped enjoying her after Dawn beat her twice in a row, first with Pachirisu and then with Mamoswine and Cyndaquil of all Pokemon. The writers were intent on making her a punching bag, even though she was shown to be competent and a threat. I defiantly think throw away characters of the day that are interesting like, the Tiger Lily(Delcatty-Tiger Cherrim-Lily get it :P) woman, Lila she was interesting I thought May's none overuse of her rivals is what made her contest fun like the Lairon, Grumpig(Kelly), Jynx(Erika), Medicham(Grace?) and Dusclaps(Timmy) trainers. I got real tired of seeing Whirlpool and Bubblebeam all the time, same with Ice Beam. Speaking of which I really think they overdid it with contest at times and the constant use of Bubbles, Ice, Sparkles, and Stars. I feel like contest can be simple and enjoyable as well, I mean May taught her Skitty how to juggle and used that talent in a contest, I could have seen Dawn teaching Buneary something like Kempo to use in a contest.

    Her always cheery attitude did get a bit tedious at times though, I feel like characters need problems because that gives them something more to strive for Dawn's only real problem was her confidence, but May had her arrogance(Bulbasaur VS. Lairon, anyone?), questioning her abilities, childishness, bratty behavior at times, Harley being a whacky ass, May also took that baby Squirtle and trained it hard into a proper mature Pokemon, and Drew was a hell of a lot better then Kenny.

    Overall, I like Dawn and liked her development and Pokemon her storyline.

  13. #58

    Default Re: Did you like Dawn's role on the show?

    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Cynthia View Post
    Why change something if it's already working well? You surely know the saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". So, why does a character have to change their personality at all costs in order for you to like them or to regard them as good or interesting?
    It probably isn't a surprise that Dawn was probably more popular in early DP than mid/late DP, if only for the simple reason that initially her personality was fresh and new. Once her character quirks started getting old, and the fact that she didn't really change or grow, a lot of people started to lose interest in her.

    I liked Dawn quite a bit when DP first started, but my interest started to decline when her entire personality became situated in Contests and her Pokemon rather than character growth.

    I'm not saying that Dawn was perfect but what I am trying to say is that compared to Ash's other female companions, she was by far the best and most interesting one. You might disagree with me but I see no reason why Dawn should have changed so radically.
    I think you're confusing "getting a lot of screentime" with "that makes a character better." You're a fan of Cynthia, who only appeared in what...maybe 10 episodes of DP at the most? Out of a 191 ep series? It goes to prove you can be a fantastic character with very little screentime.

    It seems to me they had Dawn's character arc planned out well until the end of the Wallace Cup. Once Dawn got over her losing streak it felt like she had no more room to grow, and at that point aside from getting Mamoswine to obey...she really had no more struggles for the rest of the saga. Kenny, Jessie and Ursula provided no real obstacle for her to overcome, she never battled Nando in a Contests, and as said Zoey just became that good invincible friend, so even there it didn't really matter.

    The fact is by the end of DP you can pretend she only has Piplup again, and looking at Dawn/Piplup in DP191 and back and Dawn/Piplup in DP1, they both are virtually exactly the same outside of the Contest accomplishments.

  14. #59
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    Default Re: Did you like Dawn's role on the show?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gliscor'd View Post
    The fact is by the end of DP you can pretend she only has Piplup again, and looking at Dawn/Piplup in DP191 and back and Dawn/Piplup in DP1, they both are virtually exactly the same outside of the Contest accomplishments.
    It's simply not true that Dawn didn't grow outside of Contests.
    Just think back how playful, rash and inexperienced she still was in DP1 and now remember how maturely she acted in DP 191 when comforting Piplup who was afraid of having to say goodbye. Could you in any way imagine DP1-Dawn acting like DP191-Dawn? That level of maturity by the end of DP clearly shows that her character did undergo a major change! And even during her journey you could already see signs of character growth and probably the best example is the way how she overcame her depression after her losing streak. If that's not a significant development, then I'm afraid I can't help you.
    But again, my main argument is that you can indeed recognize a change in her personality when you compare Dawn at the beginning and at the end of DP.

    And finally let me repeat what I've said already: Misty got almost zero development and May...well, let's say she had learned how to deal with Pokemon by the end of her time with the group.
    So, given these facts, I still find it kind of unfair that, while ignoring Misty and May, you're criticizing only Dawn although she was clearly the best and most elaborate of Ash's female companions.


    You're a fan of Cynthia, who only appeared in what...maybe 10 episodes of DP at the most?
    To be precisely, Cynthia appeared 19 times ;) (if you count all flashbacks, freeze frames, the Pokemon League and Cynthia's movie appearances)
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  15. #60

    Default Re: Did you like Dawn's role on the show?

    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Cynthia View Post
    It's simply not true that Dawn didn't grow outside of Contests.
    Just think back how playful, rash and inexperienced she still was in DP1 and now remember how maturely she acted in DP 191 when comforting Piplup who was afraid of having to say goodbye. Could you in any way imagine DP1-Dawn acting like DP191-Dawn? That level of maturity by the end of DP clearly shows that her character did undergo a major change! And even during her journey you could already see signs of character growth and probably the best example is the way how she overcame her depression after her losing streak. If that's not a significant development, then I'm afraid I can't help you.
    But again, my main argument is that you can indeed recognize a change in her personality when you compare Dawn at the beginning and at the end of DP.
    To each their own I suppose. I just feel that Dawn didn't change enough when you look at her personality alone outside of her Contest accomplishments or Pokemon.

    In any case I never said I didn't like Dawn, only that some aspects of her character got dull to me as DP progressed. I can see why she would be some peoples favorite, but for me I feel like her character could have progressed more outside of Contests.

    I think the other problem is the character doesn't really have much nostalgia going for her (yet), so I can't say she's a character I feel the urge to revisit at the moment. Maybe in a few years from now when DP gets very old I'll get nostalgic. As of right now I feel like she served her purpose and that's all.

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