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Thread: Could Misty/Kasumi become one of the elite four?

  1. #121
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Could Misty become one of the elite four?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    What we see from Kanto gym leaders like Blaine,Sabrina,Koga etc after their debut in Kant which was over 12 years ago?Answer is nothing with no indication that they made some big notable step forward being provided.
    That's because we haven't seen them. That's what I was saying, if the logic that Misty can be developped into a super strong trainer while staying in the gym can be applied to Misty, than that logic can be applied to everybody.

    Same with Misty already in Kanto she showed to have predispositions to come further than average trainer is able to do in meantime showing bigger improvement
    Let's hear it...

    showing knowledge of how to use properly other type of pokemon in battle beside water
    Battling with different types... much like Ash, Brock, May, Dawn, Gary, Casey, Harrison, Morrison, Tyson, Katie, Paul, Barry, Conway, Nando... list goes endlessly on. That Misty is able to battle with different types makes her the same as pretty much every other trainer...

    Like winning Princess festival on first try, coming top 8 in prestige water tournament(Whirl cup)on first try
    Again, every character has won or performed well in mini-tournaments like that, some of them more pretigious than the Whirl Cup. Like Ash with the Orange League, the Battle Frontier, the Hearthome Tag Team competition (In which Dawn was a finalist), the Twinleaf Festival, two Pokéringer competitions, etc.

    she managed to learn how to overcome disadvantage when her own pokemon are in inferior position being able to beat Andreas and his Poliwrath who were champions of Seaking contest for years.
    Which again, we've seen trainers do for years on the show, most notably Ash, Dawn, May, various Gym Leaders who are specifically prepared to counter types against which they are weak.

    All of this are qualities of skilled and great trainer since it ensures that he gains his own pokemon thrust showing being able to adapt to any hard situation in which its pokemon are put into finding best solution to counter it.
    And yet, all of was seen in many other trainers... As I said before, the question at the top of this thread is somewhat pointless in that technically, Misty or any other character has a chance of becoming an Elite 4 member, the real question is: Is there something about Misty that makes her a likelier candidate, to the point where it is probable that this will be the road the writers will take with her character should she ever appear again?. The answer is no.

  2. #122
    Happy Holidays! CrackFox's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Could Misty become one of the elite four?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    As I said before, the question at the top of this thread is somewhat pointless in that technically, Misty or any other character has a chance of becoming an Elite 4 member, the real question is: Is there something about Misty that makes her a likelier candidate, to the point where it is probable that this will be the road the writers will take with her character should she ever appear again?. The answer is no.
    Well, you can take the question how you want to take it, but to me, I gave my answer in theory. I believe she could in theory. I do agree that she's not more 'likelier' too than any other character and that she hasn't been/achieved/experience more in her journey than certain other characters have. I know she wasn't revolutionary. It's all hypothetical.

    She's the kind of character that would be bad ass enough to suit the role of E4 member, that doesn't mean to say I think she's strong enough or experienced enough for it but she always had the stubborn determination about her and she's not weak.

    Even though she didn't do a lot of battling she was never portrayed as bad at it and her Pokemon have a lot of fighting spirit.

  3. #123
    Child of the Atom Hellion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Could Misty become one of the elite four?

    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    I gave my answer in theory.
    So did I. Technically? Yes. Likely? No, not at all.

    Even though she didn't do a lot of battling she was never portrayed as bad at it.
    I never said she was. She was always portrayed as being below average to average at battling, but neither very bad or good at it.

  4. #124
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    Default Re: Could Misty become one of the elite four?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    So did I. Technically? Yes. Likely? No, not at all.
    You seem to be giving your answer based on facts and what we've seen so far. I say yes, not because of the possibility that she could but the impossibility that she could, which I don't agree with.

    I never said she was. She was always portrayed as being below average to average at battling, but neither very bad or good at it.
    I never said that you said that she was :P
    I wasn't retaliating I was just making that point. As some trainers are seen as a bit hopeless as some point, for example, May/Iris..Misty never was.
    There's a stigma that she's not very good with her Pokemon but I think she was a good battler, she just didn't get to do it very often.

  5. #125
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    Default Re: Could Misty become one of the elite four?

    Quote Originally Posted by Afrojisiac-19 View Post
    The passage of time in the anime is a very obscure thing...for all we know, it could be any amount of months that's less than a year, hell it could be 8 months, it could be 11 months...What is a real anime year? Hell, let's just leave it at being obscure for now.

    For example, May left the show, and about 75 or so episodes into DP, she makes her return.

    Three of her previous pokemon had evolved, one of them evolved TWICE. Her Glaceon learned at least FOUR new attacks, her Wartortle learned a new attack, and Beautifly learned a new attack. That's a LOT of off-screen development that took place in her team, and she hadn't been off the show for long at all! Since you want to emphasize "not a year has passed" in the show, that's a lot of development May got in "less than a year's time". So again, if May can get her team revamped like that and improve in her skills in such a short time, I don't see how that same development can't be applied to Misty.

    And you really can't say for sure that Misty is the newest Kanto Gym Leader because if I'm not mistaken, she returned to the Gym in Cerulean before Viridian City's new gym leader was put in place.

    I understand your posts, but you as well as many others' comments in this thread are just leaning more towards the likes of:

    Misty won't ever get there, she'll never accomplish that, she won't ever get this, and OTHER people will ALWAYS be considered BEFORE her. Isn't that a bit unfair?
    Pokemon evolutions in the show are completely unpredictable. If I remember correctly Ash's Caterpie evolved to a Butterfree in about 3 episodes. If you work at it you can fully evolve your starter pokemon in a day (Talking about the games). It true time is a bit of a wild factor in the anime and i'm sure Misty has improved, but she wasn't exactly exceptional when we last saw her. She wouldn't jump from there to Elite 4 level.

    True, but at the time we last saw her she was the newest (Or 2nd Newest. Not sure when Forrest became one), assuming that a replacement for Giovanni still hadn't been found.

    "SIGH", I get where you're coming from and I have to agree that is the general tone of this thread. But, to be fair, it's Misty. You can't expect anything less. Putting aside all the hate people sling her way, she was never really a top battler. And to make it worse, her game and manga counterparts were clearly powerful and respected trainers. Anime Misty is kind of a joke when compared to them.

    For me:Assuming that you can stay in the Elite 4 as long as you want, I don't really see Misty getting there. I'd say there are at least 3 (Koga, Sabrina and Blaine) other Gym Leaders that would be considered and asked before her. If asked they very well may turn the offer down, but the fact remains that I think they would be asked first.

    I don't think she'll accomplish it for the simple fact that she doesn't seem to want to be a member of the 4. LOL, she didn't even seem to like being a Gym Leader that much. I guess if she was a member of the Elite 4 she could travel more often, but i'm not sure if she'd appreciate it anymore than being a Gym Leader.

    Overall I do think that other people will always be considered before her. At least considering where her skills were the last time we saw her. If we see her again and she's improved (Changed her team up, learned some new strategies, etc.) then i'll change my opinion. As it is now, I can only judge her and the other Gym Leaders based on the levels that they were at when we last saw them.

    EDIT:The real issue being debated here isn't wether Misty COULD become a member of the Elite 4, its not even wether she would or not (Cause thats another argument entirely). The real issue seems to be, is she the top candidate for the Elite 4? Would she be asked before the other Gym Leaders?
    Last edited by Blue1225; 18th May 2011 at 04:34 PM.

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  6. #126
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    Default Re: Could Misty become one of the elite four?

    O.O I'm not reading through this whole thread....but this is what I'm going to say right now:

    Misty will only become a member of the E4 if she does so in the games. Done!

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Could Misty become one of the elite four?

    Quote Originally Posted by 00poke_maniac View Post
    Misty will only become a member of the E4 if she does so in the games. Done!
    This theory makes sense. O.O Are you a wizard?
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  8. #128
    pokemon fan 132 pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Default Re: Could Misty become one of the elite four?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    That's because we haven't seen them. That's what I was saying, if the logic that Misty can be developped into a super strong trainer while staying in the gym can be applied to Misty, than that logic can be applied to everybody.
    It cant because not everyone has required talent and potential to grow in very strong trainer one day.Fact that Blaine,Sabrina,Erica etc who were gym leaders for years are still barely above average trainers shows how they dont have necessary skill and knowledge to ever come that far one day.

    Fact that they dont seem to have any desire to leave their respective gym position to go on a journey like other gym leaders who became something more did(like Wallace,Fantina,Jasmine etc) to learn new things and put their skills on higher levels which cant be achieved at this position says alot in itself too.

    Unlike them Misty showed big desire to become highly recognized and exceptionally strong one type trainer one day wanting to learn as much as she can about water type,how to overcome their disadvantage,travel and explore new things showing notable improvement for a young trainer at her age achieving several things for which it would took for majority of trainers years to com that far.

    Let's hear it...
    For start she managed as 10 year old to improve more in shorter period of time as trainer for which it would took average trainer several years.Like winning several competitions on first try showing to have bigger skill and knowledge than many other adult competitors seemed to have.She was able to show impressive use of strategy in several of her battles showing to be more skilled than several trainers who had years of training and battling ahead of her,took control of Gyarados in shorter period than it took As to put Charizard under control,became recognized and respected by several trainers as very talented water trainer etc.

    Misty was more competent than your typical average trainer of the day.

    Battling with different types... much like Ash, Brock, May, Dawn, Gary, Casey, Harrison, Morrison, Tyson, Katie, Paul, Barry, Conway, Nando... list goes endlessly on. That Misty is able to battle with different types makes her the same as pretty much every other trainer...
    Your missing the point in here.Those trainers are not specialized in using only one type being expected from them to know how to battle properly with all pokemon types in general.

    With Misty it was showed how she is mainly interested in water type battling only with them and to see her character being able to handle well pokemon of different types(like electric,grass,fire) despite never training or battling with them before that beating several competitors in Princess festival shows how she possess unusual talent as trainer.

    Again, every character has won or performed well in mini-tournaments like that, some of them more prestigious than the Whirl Cup. Like Ash with the Orange League, the Battle Frontier, the Hearthome Tag Team competition (In which Dawn was a finalist), the Twinleaf Festival, two Pokéringer competitions, etc.
    And what does this tell you about Ash or Dawn?That Misty just like them has potential which many other trainers dont seem to have being able to make improvement for which it would take years for others to reach.
    Fact that Ash as 10 years old managed to come that far for which it would take years for other being better than several adult trainers out there shows how he is not ordinary trainers having that touch which many other trainers dont seem to have.

    Same with Dawn,thousands of coordinators try for years to win Grand festival.Something which Dawn almost managed to achieve at her first try showing huge improvement for a 10 year old having that potential as coordinator which majority of adult contest participants dont seem to have.

    Same goes for Misty.Take for example Whirl cup.Its water tournament which gathers pokemon trainers all around the world being held after every three years.Out of all of them only 64 who are best manage to pass preliminary rounds with purpose being to get rid of weak trainers.
    Many of those competitors like Harrison,Trinity etc battled and trained their pokemon alot more due to being much older than Misty was but despite that she was able to come top 8 which is big improvement for someone who entered this tournament for the first time showing to have required skill and talent to come very far as water trainer.

    Also competitions like poke ringer you mentioned are on local basis not being as prestigious like Whirl Cup was.

    Which again, we've seen trainers do for years on the show, most notably Ash, Dawn, May, various Gym Leaders who are specifically prepared to counter types against which they are weak.
    Difference between Ash,May,Misty and some much older trainers or gym leaders is lying in simple fact of those trainers being able to develop unique and complex strategies at much younger age than it took much older trainers to do.

    the real question is: Is there something about Misty that makes her a likelier candidate, to the point where it is probable that this will be the road the writers will take with her character should she ever appear again?. The answer is no.
    Basing on what anime canon showed answer is leaning more toward yes.If writers didnt want for Misty to come far one day they wouldnt give her Gyarados,have her come very far in prestige water tournament,being recognized by several water trainers as someone special who has what it takes to become very strong on day.

    Also Misty has behind her plot armor through which writers can do with her everything they want and since her dream is to become water master which is basically becoming E4 things go in her advantage.
    For same reason Ash will become pokemon champion,May and Dawn top coordinators etc at age of 10.At end of pokmon series all ex main character will more than likely be showed at high positions either achieving or coming very close toward their dreams.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue1225 View Post
    True, but at the time we last saw her she was the newest (Or 2nd Newest. Not sure when Forrest became one), assuming that a replacement for Giovanni still hadn't been found.
    You forgot to take in account one important thing.Before taking over gym Misty was already experienced trainer not being beginner like Forrest is.

    Putting aside all the hate people sling her way, she was never really a top battler. And to make it worse, her game and manga counterparts were clearly powerful and respected trainers. Anime Misty is kind of a joke when compared to them.
    None of main characters in this show is rally a top battler yet.However achievements character made in meantime and how much he improved serve as way to measure if he has required talent to become exceptionally strong battler one day.And misty showed to be stronger and more talented than several adult trainers who trained for years showed like i already pointed out in some examples i mentioned.

    Only talented and special trainers can already achieve so much at such a short time.If trainer manage to make notable achievements at young age showing improvement in much shorter period of time than it would take average trainer to do he is considered as more talented person who has predispositions to come further than others.
    Also she manage to become gym leader at very young age,position which usually older people manage to obtain.This also shows Misty standing out from average.

    For me:Assuming that you can stay in the Elite 4 as long as you want, I don't really see Misty getting there. I'd say there are at least 3 (Koga, Sabrina and Blaine) other Gym Leaders that would be considered and asked before her. If asked they very well may turn the offer down, but the fact remains that I think they would be asked first.
    And what makes Blaine,Sabrina or Koga stand out from others to have required potential to achieve such position?If they werent able to become E4 for all this years by being gym leaders its very likely how they will never improve enough to obtain such position.
    Also they never showed any interest in becoming something higher than gym leasder position is.Al those gym leader who strive for something more left their positions when gym started holding them back to improve themselves as trainers learning things which they cant at gym.Like Wallace for example.
    If gym leader dont show desire to become something more nor he takes any action in learning things outside of gym it shows how he doesnt have motivation to achieve higher goals.

    Unlike them Misty from start showed to have motivation and desire to become something higher than being gym leader.Because of that she has higher chance to become E4 because she has that spirit and motivation other gym leaders you mentioned seem to lack.

    I don't think she'll accomplish it for the simple fact that she doesn't seem to want to be a member of the 4. LOL, she didn't even seem to like being a Gym Leader that much. I guess if she was a member of the Elite 4 she could travel more often, but i'm not sure if she'd appreciate it anymore than being a Gym Leader.
    Not true at all.What was Mistys goal?To become strongest water trainer in world(aka water pokemon master).Something which is basically being E4 member since they are best one type trainers in world.
    On top of that some E4 are labeled as dragon o Ice master like Lance or Lorelei are(something Misty wants to achieve).-

    Reason why Misty never showed much interest in being a gym leader coming back only because of being forced because of incompetent sisters is because she always wanted to become something much higher than gym leader position is showing desire to travell and explore new things,learning everything she an about water tyoe to become highly recognized and skilled trainer on day.We can see this in several episodes like in "Totodile Duel",Whirl up","Bye Bye Psyduck"etc.

    On top of that she showed big interest in E4 Lorelei in Orange Islands admiring her skills in use of water and ice pokemon claiming for her to be her idol.
    What does this tell us?That being top trainer who specialize in one type is goal which Misty wants to accomplish.Something which E4 position is.

    Overall I do think that other people will always be considered before her. At least considering where her skills were the last time we saw her. If we see her again and she's improved (Changed her team up, learned some new strategies, etc.) then i'll change my opinion. As it is now, I can only judge her and the other Gym Leaders based on the levels that they were at when we last saw them.
    One major flaw your making on here is that entire premise behind this argument is based on what we saw from other Kanto gym leaders when they made their debut.
    However problem is we didnt see anything particularly impressive that we didnt seen from many other trainers who came after them.Take for example Blaine.He didnt showed anything to mke him stand out to have what it takes to become E4 one day.

    Same for likes like lt.Surge,All those trainers his Raichu put in hospital were beginners just like Ash was.Nothing impressive since rookies are type of traners which can be beaten by anyone.
    Koga was beaten by Ash fairly easily not showing to be particularly hard trainer.
    Sabrina was tough but her real power was coming from her psychic powers.Once her problem with split personality got solved with help pf Haunter she wasnt anymore special than other gym leaders.Not to mention Ash was rookie when he battled her back in Kanto.,If he battled her now as more experienced trainer with team he had in Sinnoh,Johto or Hoenn situation would be vastly different.

    Now ill ask one simple question?Didnt Misty already showed from Kanto,to Orange Islands and Johto to have just as much skill like Erica,Blaine oir Sabrina has?Your judging those gym leader streght by one battle you get to see them in.

    However as we get to see with Misty she showed just as impressive use of strategy several times during her journey in original series.One of notable moments where her talent as trainer came in surface was in battle against Molly with Staryu who was holding its ground vs powered up Mantine,or when she showed impressive strategy when battling in Whirol Cup vs Harrison or Trinity when Corsola beaten Gyarados with one spike cannon.

    Or when she was recognized by gym leader Dorian,Koga and his sister Aya,Marina etc as very talented trainer who have predispositions to come very far one day.
    Her further improvement was highly notable when she tamed wild Gyarados learning how to train it well as his use of flamethrower confirmed passing gym inspection.

    If Misty wasnt anything special she wouldnt come further in shorter period of time for which it would take normal(average)trainer years.

    The real issue seems to be, is she the top candidate for the Elite 4? Would she be asked before the other Gym Leaders?
    If she has potential and required skill to cut for E4 material answer is yes.

    Many E4 members like Flint,Aaron,Bruno etc manage to achieve such high position at young age showing to have bigger talent as trainers than all those much older gym leaders like Blaine,Pryce,Fantina etc contain.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 19th May 2011 at 08:28 AM.

  9. #129

    Default Re: Could Misty become one of the elite four?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Anyway, I fail to see what was shown about Misty to make her a likelier candidate for the position than anybody in the anime.
    Question is "Could Misty become one of the elite four?" and answer should be "yes". She is one of Kanto gym leaders and only 10 year old, also a main character in the anime. Her career in E4 is a big possibility.
    1. Satoshi/Ash Ketchum: 801 episodes
    2. Team Rocket: 736 episodes
    3. Takeshi/Brock: 633 episodes
    4. Kasumi/Misty: 282 episodes
    5. Hikari/Dawn: 201 episodes
    6. Haruka/May: 197 episodes
    7. Masato/Max: 192 episodes
    8. Iris: 141 episodes
    9. Dent/Cilan: 138 episodes
    10. Kenji/Tracey: 44 episodes

  10. #130
    Because I can. Caseydia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Could Misty become one of the elite four?

    I'm not going to come back here anymore but I must correct the person above me. Misty was not 10 years old. She was alittle older than that and everyone knew it.

  11. #131
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    Default Re: Could Misty become one of the elite four?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caseydia View Post
    I'm not going to come back here anymore but I must correct the person above me. Misty was not 10 years old. She was alittle older than that and everyone knew it.
    actually she's 9 years old according to the comic

  12. #132

    Default Re: Could Misty become one of the elite four?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caseydia View Post
    I'm not going to come back here anymore but I must correct the person above me. Misty was not 10 years old. She was alittle older than that and everyone knew it.
    In the anime Misty is 10 years old, she says so in the ep Ash captures Caterpie in Japanese.

  13. #133
    Admin Iteru's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: Could Misty become one of the elite four?

    Now that the question is answered, let's get back on topic.

  14. #134
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    Default Re: Could Misty become one of the elite four?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iteru View Post
    Now that the question is answered, let's get back on topic.
    Lol, do you really want that to happen?

    Lol anyways, it seems as if discussing anything Misty related is almost like opening pandora's box, or playing russian roulette or something like that...with the attitude that this topic has taken, the tone in this atmosphere is dreadful...

    I think one of the biggest mistakes in Misty's run is that the writers didn't want her to be potrayed as being "too powerful" of a trainer and with a lot of missed opportunities to improve her pokemon and battling skills while she was a main character, I can really see why a lot of people would doubt the chance of her becoming an E4 member, but I still wouldn't count it out completely. She didn't get in as many battles as other characters may have, and more importantly she didn't win all her matches either. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that she was completely unskilled and helpless in battle.
    Last edited by Afrojisiac-19; 19th May 2011 at 11:26 AM.

  15. #135

    Default Re: Could Misty become one of the elite four?

    I think the original mistake was Misty was on the show when the series first started. When the series began, the entire focus was on Ash's journey and promoting the pokemon themselves. The writers had no clue that this was going to become a 15 year+ series. Remember the show was originally supposed to end after Kanto.

    That's why Misty really got a handful of episodes about her goal, and her battles were usually interrupted by Psyduck all the time in Kanto/Orange at least, preventing her from having proper battles.

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