^Quite a bit from DP in fact; and so much bias toward BW. "E4, ALMOST no TR, and many more"
Black and White/Best Wishes
^Quite a bit from DP in fact; and so much bias toward BW. "E4, ALMOST no TR, and many more"
I think the problem is DP was stretched out so long that people forgot what was actually good about it. Its a shame, some of the things DP did really pushed the anime forward an extended it beyond what was a simple kids shows. Never thought we'd see villains really trying to kill Ash and co, (J having Drapion squeeze Ash or drop him out of the air ship, Mars trying to blow up an entire island with the group on it with bombs), or the stuff we saw with Paul and even mild depression arcs that Dawn or Chimchar kinda went through.
And seriously, watching BW really makes me miss DP's battles. In DP, the battles were the main attraction and for good reason. They had become the best the series had to offer.
I really think it depends on what aspects we're looking at, and also opinions of course.
In my views, BW has the better main group (Ash/Iris/Cilan seriously blow Ash/Dawn/Brock out of the water), better Pokemon, and better humor. At the same time, DP was more story-driven than BW. Rivals wise I think we're about equal. DP had Barry, Paul, Conway, and Ursula, and BW has Burgundy, Georgia, Bianca and Stephen.
In the end I think they're both really good series. They each have their ups and downs, but they're both enjoyable either way.
I was half asleep when I made this post, so I apologize if it sounds slightly incoherent. >_>
Last edited by Insanish Danish; 31st October 2011 at 06:24 PM.
back to being a non-edible pastry
I am not really feeling the BW pokemon on the cast that well.
Cilan's Pokemon don't really have any personality and remind me of Misty/Brock's Kanto/Johto pokes who were used the same way. And Iris' Pokemon are alright, but nothing beyond what we've seen from May and Dawn's Pokemon.
And honestly, I think I finally like one of Ash's pokemon team less than the Johto team, which says a lot. Most of Ash's pokemon this saga have no personality and we barely see them beyond the starters anyway. Huge step back from AG and DP, where I felt like I cared about almost every pokemon on the main cast.
But that's the problem. Some people see that DP was 191 episodes and say, "We spent nearly 200 episodes in a single region? Most of it must have been filler!"
The funniest part of it all is if you go through the DP episode list, almost every episode has something important happening. While there were some crap eps in DP along the way (like every saga has), even some of the fillers like the Evil Togepi ep or that Spiritomb ep were great.
Honestly I just blame the group dynamics. Most people didn't like the DP trio because it had no chemistry. That's why people found the saga boring.
And that is indeed one of my only issues with BW: the terribly uneven representation each Pokemon gets. When I forgot that Swadloon and Tranquil even existed...that's a serious problem. DP's Pokemon were more than just Pokemon, they were true characters.
Lets see: Overall the first year of each series.
Personality and depth of the characters - Sinnoh wins via landslide. I have no bias nor hate towards Iris/Cilian, but compared to the depth that we got last season it seems like we've gone backwards. Do I even need to address Ash's reset in his character? He is basically just a little better than his Kanto counterpart, and even then he was more entertaining to watch while now its just plain ridiculous.
Depth of the Pokemon - In Sinnoh it seemed as Ash was building together the "ultimate team" capable of winning the league and even going on to the E4 and eventually facing Cynthia and I'll be damned if that wasn't what they originally intended. But now Ash actually has imo too many Pokemon to adequately focus on. In DP the small amount of Pokemon allowed a great degree of focus and a good degree of depth for each and every single Pokemon. Infernape's development was especially amazing, and I doubt that we'll see anything like it in B/W.
The Rivals - Paul was epic. Trip is stale and a downgraded Gary Oak, I'm sorry but I had to say it. Paul pushed almost every single boundary in the anime series as far as rivals go and he added alot to the series as a whole. Hell, he did that in his first episode! What did Trip ever add to the series?
Even though he came later Barry was pretty cool too, and Conway was hilarious. Bianca is at least pretty funny in B/W though, but B/W really, and I mean really lacks the utter depth that Paul/Ash had.
The battles - Do I even need to go into this one? Sinnoh was when the Anime team got it right with the battles. They were perfected in the D/P saga without doubt, and they even made sense gamewise. They were so on the edge of your seat that it was amazing. B/W lacks this feel and emotion that the D/P battles had.
Realism - Not a hugely important thing, but D/P was likely the most violent Pokemon anime series that we'll ever have. That is due to Paul, Infernape's story, and the feel of the battles.
Overall, DP was indeed written way better than B/W. It seems like they became afraid of what D/P did and brought and then back-peddled to where we are now.
The cons of D/P
TR did become repetitive. This is when their antics became over the top for me and old. I had myself thinking that they would just quit Team Rocket and become their own characters, because some of their best episodes are when they were NOT trying to be villains. Would have made D/P that much better.
The ending to an epic saga was horrible. The ending to D/P was obviously rushed. We needed to see Ash/Paul in the final battle, aside from E4/Cynthia they were likely the best trainers in D/P without doubt and deserved it. The whole new and huge focus of the E4 and Cynthia just seemed to hint at them finally being able to be battled by Ash with him eventually facing Cynthia.
Like I said above, overall D/P is just superior. It has much depth, well thought out plots that link the entire series together, and emotion that gets you invested in the characters.
Last edited by El_; 31st October 2011 at 01:19 PM.
I'd have to agree with what Hidden Mew said. Most people who take DP for face value only (i.e. its length) and hates on the series for that aspect haven't bothered to even watch much of the series. While there were plenty of fillers, I'd say a good percentage of them were enjoyable and every bit as memorable as any given non-filler. There were bad fillers too, sure, but every series has bad fillers littered around, so it's not like it's unique to DP or anything.
And again, if this poll's anything to go by (and some of the responses in the 1 Year of BW review thread), I'd say the majority here is quite alright with DP. To me, now with BW to compare it with, DP's writing and story structure and characters seem like works of absolute genius compared to what we're left to accept right now. For the first time in this entire series since the end of Kanto, it feels like almost every element of the show has taken many steps backward, even though it's been pretty much the opposite since the end of Johto to the end of DP.
And I agree about the DP trio chemistry being exaggerated. I'm not gonna lie and say Ash/Brock/Dawn had the best group mechanics ever, but I think they functioned well enough to serve its purpose and everyone had a reason for being in the group and at the very least they all felt like good friends. The trio didn't set the world on fire, but I never thought they really needed to. I would've liked to see more interaction between Brock and Dawn, sure, but I still vastly prefer the DP trio to the BW trio if only because Iris sticks out like a sore thumb as a third wheel. If someone else replaced her, I'd probably enjoy the BW trio a lot more. As it stands, I don't get the hype about how perfect the BW trio allegedly is. Something about Iris in general and the horrible way Ash is being written prevents me from fully tolerating the group. If it weren't for Cilan being there and keeping things interesting, I'd probably mentally tune out every single scene with the trio in every episode.
Hell, Cilan is is own trio.
The DP trio not only didn't have any type of overall dynamic or balance, but it is also the only group of the anime that was never funny. As a trio, it came across as incredibly bland. I can't think of a single time their interactions made me laugh or crack a smile. The DP trio simply did not work, which is why whenever we had a 4th character like Paul, Zoey, Barry or whomever with them, suddenly it got better.
To be honest I don't know why the writers did that. I guess they figured Max came across as useless too much of the time so instead they opted to do another female coordinator without a little brother this time, but they forgot exactly why the AG group had decent chemistry and the DP trio just came across as forced and dull.
There's a reason why in DP191, Ash has separate goodbyes for Dawn and Brock, rather than a goodbye for the trio overall like the last eps of Johto did for the original trio. The DP trio was a snooze, and I can see it easily being the most forgotten group of the shows history by the time the series ever ends.
Yeah, DP is better.
Seriously though, Ash's rivalries and growth as a trainer, the management of JJ&M's interests and the arcs where pretty damn awesome. I think that was the anime at it's finest.
Best Wishes flushed all that down the toilet.
But IMO, Dawn (and Brock I guess..) is DP's failure. <.<
What dragged DP down I think was Team Rocket and Brock had finally run their course, and people were really tired of it. So BW is more fresh because Brock is gone and TR have been revamped to not steal Pikachu or even appear in most episodes. But the writing dipped for BW in other areas.
Right from the beginning I knew the DP trio would get stale as a group quickly, and I was right. About the only decent thing about it is the way Ash and Dawn trained and worked together, but that was about it.
No matter how you feel about Iris or Cilan as characters, there's no denying the BW trio is far more fresh than the DP trio ever was. I'll say it again, I don't think the DP trio will be remembered much at all by the time the show ends, whenever that may be.
The price that we got for a better and more fresh trio is lack of depth for the Pokemon it seems. As well as lack of depth in many other places.
If only there was a way to have everything.