I wish we had some of DP's plots and battles mixed in with BW's chemistry...it would be the perfect saga.
Black and White/Best Wishes
I wish we had some of DP's plots and battles mixed in with BW's chemistry...it would be the perfect saga.
I think my two biggest problems with BW is the super-fast pacing - the gap between the fifth and sixth gym battles was ridiculously small - and the way only Oshawott, Tepig, Snivy and Scraggy get good screentime, whereas the rest of Ash's team barely appear at all (like Leavanny, who has only appeared 8 times. When you a Pokemon's amount appearances is in the single digit, you know it's being treated badly). So if BW had a slower pacing - like DP - and Ash's Pokemon were treated better - like DP - I might actually like BW. But right now, BW is looking almost as bad as the original series to me.
I'd place BW above Johto if only because of Cilan, the colorful rivals, (Bianca, Georgia, Burungly, Stephen), and the Don battle tournaments.
BW only looks flawed coming directly after DP, but taken on its own its OK despite the poor team handling.
I don't think so. I still don't see this great BW chemistry when only two characters actually feel like friends. Though, it's also that they couldn't make a perfect saga even if that chemistry existed. People can't create perfection. Even if they combine two great things together, there would still be problems and people who don't like everything about it.Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
I agree that Cilan is one of the positive aspects of BW, but I'm not sure about the rivals. I still don't find anime Bianca anywhere near as engaging as her video game counterpart, although I haven't watched the most recent tournament so maybe she's better there and Stephen might be better too. I like Georgia and Burgundy, but not because of their rivalries with Cilan and Iris. Georiga is one of the only characters that actually calls out Iris on her flaws and that alone makes me want to see Georgia defeat Iris at some point, but their rivalry is going nowhere. I like Burgundy as an underdog character and I'm hoping that she'll eventually get an on-screen victory, but she doesn't have as much of a rivalry with Cilan. I like at least two of the rival characters, but if there rivalries are either going nowhere or aren't doing enough for me, then I'm not sure if I would see that as a positive side. As for the Don Battle tournaments, while I haven't seen the recent tournament arc, the first one left a really bad taste in my mouth, even before Iris' cheap victory with Axew. It was a good idea, but like a lot of events in BW, it was seriously rushed.Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
While coming right after DP does make the flaws more obvious, I don't think that's the only reason. There are a lot of problems with the pacing, characterization, and development for both the human and Pokemon characters that are obvious even without comparing it to DP. Most of the time when I do talk about the problems I have with BW, I don't make that many, if any, comparisons to DP. I think if BW, or a series of the same quality, came right after AG instead of DP, it still would be seen as flawed. At the moment, I think that I do prefer Johto over BW. While Johto had a ton of problems too, the Gym battles were actually pretty good, while the battles in BW are barely better than Kanto/Orange Islands battles, there was a sense of progression in Ash's Johto journey that I think is absent in BW, I think Ash's Johto team had more personality than most of Ash's Unova Pokemon and I didn't find any of the characters anywhere near as annoying as Iris.Originally Posted by Gliscor'd
I'm also glad that Dawn didn't take up the role of pulling Brock's ear. I got so tired of that gag with Max and at times, it even made Max kind of annoying with how much he was pulling Brock's ears. At least the Croagunk was something different and actually made the gag funny. I don't think it would have given Dawn that much more interactions with Brock anyway. It just would caused her to be more annoyed at Brock, which isn't really much of an interaction. Not to mention it wouldn't really make sense for Dawn to do that given her personality.
I'll admit to the fact that Iris has gotten a tad "better" in terms of her supposed friendship with the boys. She's not as bad as she used to be.
Really, you don't have to have a character that's nice all the time, but there's a point where it gets superfluous. Recent example, in last weeks fossil episode, Ash was excited about something and Iris said something deadpan with "Kodomo ne" tagged on. Now, that might have been fine if Ash reacted in a humorous way...but he just kinda looked at her with no real expression. Making one wonder, how is this gag funny anymore?
I know there was some complaining that everyone was too "nice" to each other in Sinnoh...but I didn't really feel it was all that bad. Better than what we have now certainly. I guess with this series we're either going to get, the nice girly, girls as seen in May/Dawn. Or the rude, abrasive, straight-man character types with Misty/Iris(though, admittingly they pulled off the straight-man aspect alot better with the former).
Last edited by Masurao; 25th April 2012 at 09:19 PM.
It was only the DP trio that never teased each other at all acted super nice 100% of the time. While if this was real life it would be fine, since its a TV show most characters are designed to play off one another and not act so one dimensional toward each other.
AS IF it happened every episode and was focused on so much when it did happen... -_-The Hoenn group had both May/Max's squabbles as well as Max sometimes making fun of Ash.
Ash and Dawn had some fighting too, Dawn once got annoyed at Brock and actually hurt him before Croagunk could do it, etc...
No. You're not "we all". I do not know anything about the original trio's "dynamic" since I honestly see them as the worst group... well, until BW came and proved to be even worse, since it's just a cheap imitation that fails more than the original didThe original trio has the dynamic we all know
Misty pulling Brock's ear is NOT oh so awesome "dynamic"/"chemistry"/"interactions" - it's a running gag that gave absolutely nothing for the characters or their relationship
You call THAT "dynamic"/"chemistry"/"interactions" ?! Well, if that's the case, than I think Arceus the DP series didn't have this...and the BW trio has Iris face palming at Cilan and calling Ash a kid.
As I said, the DP group had some moments like that, even if maybe less than the othersIt was only the DP trio that never teased each other at all acted super nice 100% of the time. While if this was real life it would be fine, since its a TV show most characters are designed to play off one another and not act so one dimensional toward each other.
Also, as I said countless times before, the DP group felt the most family-like and that's partly why I loved it so much - everyone played their role perfectly and it worked great for me, Ash and Dawn are the competitive kids sharing a brother/sister best friends relationship, Brock is the mature "big brother" to the kids, and together with their Pokémon they're all one big family that's really fun to watch
I like the Kanto ones the best, the BW are bad..... so I'd say the DP ones are better.
Saying that the DP trio got along perfectly 100% of the time isn't just an exaggeration; it's just not true. It was more prevalent in the early part of the series, but Ash and Dawn did have arguments. Like when Nando appeared and Ash and Dawn were bickering over which path he should take as a trainer before Nando settled on both. There were times that Ash got exasperated over Dawn being a girl, like whenever she was super-obsessive over her hair and whatnot. I think there was even a rehash of that one AG episode that had the gender tag battle thing going on.
Yes, it mellowed out to the point where any sort of disagreements were rare, but like any quasi-realistic group of friends, they did not perfectly get along right away. They had to get used to each other. One could argue the same for the BW group, but the fact of the matter is that the BW group is probably the most static of all the groups because the dynamics between the three didn't really change since they all got together, and aside from Ash/Cilan, there's this omnipresent negativity settled within the trio because of Iris' static character. That's why they don't really feel like friends to me. Iris will settle down and act like a generic friend when the plot needs her to be, but that aside, I don't really feel any sort of mutual respect going on in that group. Iris even tells the CotDs they run into how childish Ash is or how annoying Cilan is. The trio lacks any sort of harmonic connection. Even though they've developed Ash and Cilan just fine, that alone can't represent the function of the entire trio.
In regards to Dawn "not trusting" her friends about Pachirisu, I think it's worth noting that this happened very early on in the series. Had this happened mid or late-series, I think Dawn would have confided in her friends before making any rash decisions. But, y'know, in any remotely realistic scenario, you're not going to be inclined to confide all your insecurities and worries to friends you just recently made until you get to know them better and spend more time with them. At least, I think that's how it would work.
Either way, even if the DP trio wasn't a shining example of how a functioning trio should be, I still think their friendship was way more realistic and believable than whatever the hell the BW trio has now.
When people think back to the 4 main groups of the anime, how is the DP trio going to stand out?
Last edited by Masurao; 26th April 2012 at 12:14 PM.
The DP trio largely functioned by just Ash and Dawn interacting. There was no trio. It was two characters with almost the same personality and Brock just standing around.
If you read old posts from 2008 and 2009 you see people, Shinneth included, constantly talking about how bland or artificial the DP trio is. The fact that that's what people thought of it before BW existed says a lot.
While a lot of OTHER people, who you like to ignore, actually enjoyed it...
As you can see, many people disagree with your opinion, so it's not a fact... it's ok if that's your opinion, but please don't act as if it's a fact, since it's pretty clear that not everyone here shares this opinion
They may have been fine with it but they didn't think it was well put together either. Or else all that complaining about Brock wouldn't have happened.
The chemistry of the DP trio is one of the reasons that killed the DP saga for me. Having watched 190 episodes of them. Being so dull, uninspired, generic, bland and horrible. How could through A HUNDRED AND NINETY EPISODES, not a single writer of the anime, not notice of how bad it was. The DP trio didn't entertain me once with their interactions. The only family-like thing that they ever did was eat at the table together. If they were so family-like as you say Piplup, they would have gotten into arguments, learned something new from each other and matured together.
Most of the time, Ash trained his own Pokemon making up strategies for gyms, Dawn trained her own Pokemon making up strategies for contests and Brock just watched. There were times that Ash and Dawn had battles to train and Brock just watched too. The only 'Brother-like' thing that Brock ever did was cook for Dawn and Ash.
Heck, remember DP128? Look at this picture:
Dawn decided to hide behind Zoey instead of Brock. In the same scene, Brock said nothing and just looked at Paul, while Zoey spoke up. Heck, I can't even remember any moments that Brock and Dawn even touched each other. In the last DP episode, Brock and Ash didn't even handshake Dawn when they left.