Thread: Retconning Pokémon

Originally Posted by Infinity Edge

Buff trick room? I am not a fan of Smogon like restrictions and the kind, but I heard that this move was often banned at official Nintendo tourneys already.

Really? That's interesting.

And hey, I never said that Hail is good. But I do think to giving it more than it has already, will make it unbalanced. True, Hail teams aren't very great, but I can't truly judge those because I never witnessed them fully due to my team. The aggressive weathers are however, very strong due to the fact that if your pokemon is vulnerable to the effect it will:
-make it unable for use of Sturdy and Focus Sash if you don't have something that heals
-finish off a pokemon that has hung on Sturdy or focus sash.
And Hail can affect almost every pokemon with Sturdy in existence so far I think. So do not say it's useless. You're very ignorant.

I never said "useless", and, indeed, it does have its uses (all of which also apply to most Pokemon under Sandstorm). I said it sucks, and it does. It sucked when Obamasnow was BL tier in Gen IV, and it's definitely much worse with the dominance of Drought, Drizzle and Sand Stream. Giving Hail a buff would not unbalance or break anything, especially with the likely continued dominance of Drizzle and Drought in Gen VI.

Heck, I think Hail has needed a buff since Generation III, when it was introduced. Hail cannot compete with other weathers, at all.

p.s. Obamasnow loll
Tyranitar's gotta be the Romney there

Actually, it's Rotomney. :P

Originally Posted by Venator

(all of which also apply to most Pokemon under Sandstorm)

Not all. ffs. Most pokemon with Sturdy don't give a shit about Sandstorm. Hail it the only thing that can hurt those tanks.

Anyway I'm not into this argument, so I will not continue it. From my experience it's: Rain=Sandstorm > Hail > Sunny

Originally Posted by Infinity Edge

Not all. ffs. Most pokemon with Sturdy don't give a shit about Sandstorm. Hail it the only thing that can hurt those tanks.

I guess that's true. Still, most of what Hail can do can be done by Sandstorm.

Anyway I'm not into this argument, so I will not continue it. From my experience it's: Rain=Sandstorm > Hail > Sunny

Maybe you've not fought a lot of Sun teams?

Sun is much better than Hail.

Didn't Gamefreak state that they always think up of ways to counter existing Pokémon as opposed to changing them? I don't see the competitive play changing much aside from new Pokémon and items, and this supposedly "New Mechanic".

Originally Posted by Infinity Edge

Originally Posted by Zeb

Originally Posted by Infinity Edge

For example take Mawile, I bet many would call it a female gender only. Yet without having a male gender, Mawile becomes weaker in battle terms.

How so?

You don't know?

Male gender is the only one that promotes growth of Attack stat in pokemon. And since Attack is one of Mawile's main high stats, that will impair it in battle terms.( You need att for moves like Sucker Punch)

Originally Posted by Neptune's Disciple

Originally Posted by AceTogeTrainer

Originally Posted by Infinity Edge

Originally Posted by AceTogeTrainer

this biggest thing we need competitively is a retcon on drizzle drought and sandstream, idk if anyone plays on wifi but politoed and kingdra are just ripping things to shreds and on everyother team. The effects of the abilities should be removed when the pokemon faints or switched out. it would give the boost to politoed and ninetales that gf wanted but would make sure the ability isnt abused. Also if sandstorm boosts rock types specialdefense then hail should boost ice types defense.

They don't. Only if you can't think of ways to counter them. I'm playing against trainers using those since long, and I honestly can't say those tactics are very good.
But I'm talking about Single, idk about other modes. I think it'd be even easier to counter that lame tactic on Doubles though.

Hail already makes Blizzard unable to miss and it afflicts every type besides Ice. Your suggestion would make it op.

well i'm not too sure how you play but even smogon banned the drizzle swift swim combination for being too powerful if i remember correctly, so idk how thats considered a lame tactic but im just looking at the facts. plus with only 3 pokemon in each battle its pretty hard to counter IMO but maybe im just a bad player. and hail is the least used of all the weathers statistically (once again the smog said so) because it essentially gives no form of boost to the ice type if the pokemon isnt carrying blizzard or stalling out the opponent which ice types dont even do effectively, so it deserves a boost. but getting back on topic weather in general needs to be retconned just because of the massive overcentralization it caused this gen.

I have to agree with this. Sun, rain, and sandstorm all have several abilities and moves related to them which allow various pokemon to abuse the weather:

Rain: 50% boost to water attacks
Abilities: Swift Swim, Rain Dish, Dry Skin, Hydration
Moves: Thunder and Hurricane are 100% accurate

Sun: 50% boost to fire attacks
Abilities: Chlorophyll, Leaf Guard, Solar Power, Harvest
Moves: Solarbeam takes 1 turn, Growth doubles both attacking stats, Morningsun, Moonlight, and Synthesis heal more

Sand: 50% boost to rock types Sp.Def
Abilities: Sand Rush, Sand Force, Sand Veil
Moves: None

Hail: Nothing
Abilities: Ice Body, Snow Cloak
Moves: Blizzard becomes 100% accurate.

Hail is already a double edged sword, being as the only type immune to it is Ice, therefore you either have to have a full team of Ice mons, or Overcoat/Magic Guard to avoid damaging yourself at the same time. There is no ability that activates under Hail to increase speed, heal stats, or increase power, nor does it give any benefits to the stats of Ice types. It's auto-inducer is also pretty rubbish, with Abomasnow's only redeeming feature being the fact that it has Snow Warning. Ice types already have a hard enough time (only one resistance, and typically quite frail), so retconning some buffs to hail would be great. I would suggest a 50% boost to defense for Ice types, along with another ability or two that help pokemon abuse the condition (look at what Sand Rush has done for Excadrill). Another thought I had was to make Hail the Stealth Rock equivalent of weather conditions, in that it does damage according to the individual pokemon's weakness to ice. Perhaps 6.25% for neutral damage, 12.5% for SE, and 3.125% for NVE. Any more than 12.5% I think would make Hail OP, but I think it's a reasonable amount for someone like Garchomp/Dragonite etc to lose each turn. It would certainly make Hail more usable.

- ND

I seriously don't see anything wrong with the weathers at all. What of the fact that Sun helps grass pokemon if they are even more vulnerable to fire during that? Weather only makes much more obvious what moves the pokemon benefitting from it are gonna use. But I'm not gonna take part in this conversation anymore, there's no point. (yet)


And you must be not in your right mind with your suggestion. There are tons of tanky Ice pokemon, Dewgong, Abomasnow, Cryogonal, Mamoswine, Cloyster and Rotom. Overcoat abilities too. Ice ones are also used very frequently and have the great benefit of a STAB priority move, which is Ice Shard.
Do you even realise that Stealth Rock is already an op move? I bet you don't. So having it for free upon just entering the battle is very not-okay. And I do know that in state of a Weather effect it's removable easily, but it not always can be. Abomasnow can easily afford being slow onto benefit of it's defensive stats, and it still will be annoying with it's Ice Shard.

Cryogonal's 4 common weaknesses, one resistance, SR weakness, and 30 base defense say hi. Abomasnow has 7 weaknesses! I've never heard of anyone using Dewgong competitively, and if you do, you need to run it in rain for it to have any kind of tanking ability, not hail. Mamoswine and Cloyster are the only ones on that list that see any real use, and that stems more from their secondary typing/stat distribution/ability/moves than the ice type, ice is what holds them back from being absolute monsters. To give you an idea, Ice is currently so under-represented in OU that only 3 pokemon have this type. Compare this with the 21 pokemon that are immune to sandstorm by typing alone (not counting 2 with Magic Guard, and lets face it, no one uses overcoat because everything that gets it has much better options), and you can see that it's much more logical to build a sandstorm team than hail. Hail offers nothing to Ice types other than the fact that it doesn't damage them, whereas the 3 other weather types each offer a distinct benefit to all pokemon of their respective type regardless of ability. Rock types typically have low Sp.Def so the boost from sandstorm comes in very handy, and while Ice pokemon typically have low defense (there are exceptions to both of these, obviously), they see no buff from their weather. Hail is significantly underpowered and less useful than its weather counterparts, there's no arguing it.

Auto weather is not typically removed easily, you either have to have your own weather inducer, or stick a weather-inducing attack on a pokemon that would much rather use the slot for something else (unless you're using your own weather team - see previous point).

Stealth Rock is OP, I don't like it and I think the fact that it renders certain perfectly usable pokemon (Yanmega in particular) practically dead-weight is ridiculous, but that's not what we're arguing here (though someone's suggestion of an ability that removes SR would be brilliant). Giving hail a buff wouldn't at all make it OP, but it might make it (and the Ice type in general) usable.

- ND

Originally Posted by Neptune's Disciple

Stealth Rock is OP, I don't like it and I think the fact that it renders certain perfectly usable pokemon (Yanmega in particular) practically dead-weight is ridiculous, but that's not what we're arguing here (though someone's suggestion of an ability that removes SR would be brilliant). Giving hail a buff wouldn't at all make it OP, but it might make it (and the Ice type in general) usable.

- ND

That's the point to Stealth Rock isn't it. It's supposted to give your opponent a harder time and basically destroy their team simply by send out these types of normally hard to beat Pokemon. It makes it easier to defeat people would just sweep teams with their super fast and powerful Yanmega, Charizard, etc.

Originally Posted by Sakuraa

Originally Posted by Neptune's Disciple

Stealth Rock is OP, I don't like it and I think the fact that it renders certain perfectly usable pokemon (Yanmega in particular) practically dead-weight is ridiculous, but that's not what we're arguing here (though someone's suggestion of an ability that removes SR would be brilliant). Giving hail a buff wouldn't at all make it OP, but it might make it (and the Ice type in general) usable.

- ND

That's the point to Stealth Rock isn't it. It's supposted to give your opponent a harder time and basically destroy their team simply by send out these types of normally hard to beat Pokemon. It makes it easier to defeat people would just sweep teams with their super fast and powerful Yanmega, Charizard, etc.

It is, but I think they went too far with it. I'm assuming the original attempt was to introduce something that would hit Flying-types and levitate-users on the switch-in being as they were previously immune to all types of entry damage, but I personally think they should have capped the damage at 25%, not 50%, so that it would have the same maximum damage output as Spikes. With the invention of moves like Smack Down, and the field effect Gravity, flying's immunity to Spikes (and toxic spikes) isn't what it used to be, and the fact that SR takes only 1 turn of set-up means that basically every team should have something to set it up, something to remove it, and something to block that removal, therefore limiting the flexibility in a pokemon battle. I know it's not the be-all and end-all of a battle, but I would like to be able to use bug, ice, fire, and flying types once in a while.

Originally Posted by Neptune's Disciple

Originally Posted by Sakuraa

Originally Posted by Neptune's Disciple

Stealth Rock is OP, I don't like it and I think the fact that it renders certain perfectly usable pokemon (Yanmega in particular) practically dead-weight is ridiculous, but that's not what we're arguing here (though someone's suggestion of an ability that removes SR would be brilliant). Giving hail a buff wouldn't at all make it OP, but it might make it (and the Ice type in general) usable.

- ND

That's the point to Stealth Rock isn't it. It's supposted to give your opponent a harder time and basically destroy their team simply by send out these types of normally hard to beat Pokemon. It makes it easier to defeat people would just sweep teams with their super fast and powerful Yanmega, Charizard, etc.

It is, but I think they went too far with it. I'm assuming the original attempt was to introduce something that would hit Flying-types and levitate-users on the switch-in being as they were previously immune to all types of entry damage, but I personally think they should have capped the damage at 25%, not 50%, so that it would have the same maximum damage output as Spikes. With the invention of moves like Smack Down, and the field effect Gravity, flying's immunity to Spikes (and toxic spikes) isn't what it used to be, and the fact that SR takes only 1 turn of set-up means that basically every team should have something to set it up, something to remove it, and something to block that removal, therefore limiting the flexibility in a pokemon battle. I know it's not the be-all and end-all of a battle, but I would like to be able to use bug, ice, fire, and flying types once in a while.

I get your reasoning, but still don't think that's a reason to say stealth rock is OP, especially when there are some many ways to get around it. A simple solution being to send out your bug/ice/fire/flying-types out first so they don't take the effect of the stealth rocks. Or including a rapid spinner on the team where you use these types of Pokemon so they can get rid of it.

The only thing I want changed about old Pokémon is something I've already mentioned in my blog: More formes for Rotom and different sprites for Arbok based on the region from which the Pokémon comes.

Originally Posted by Kyuuketsuki

The only thing I want changed about old Pokémon is something I've already mentioned in my blog: More formes for Rotom and different sprites for Arbok based on the region from which the Pokémon comes.

What other formes of Rotom would we even have? I want more but I'm having difficulties wondering what other appliance rotom could possess that would give it another type... perhaps it could possess a toy robot like in Charon's diary and become part fighting, or it could possess a blender but idk what secondary type it would have then, steel perhaps but thats not very creative. Maybe it could possess a computer and become part psychic, but i feel like a computer design wont be very appealling. I think what I would most want would be a jack hammer form that can just fire off earth quakes, or earthpowers because they're specially oriented right? There are lots of possibilites but i cant really see them fitting in with the other house appliances.

Also to the people that say ice types get an advantage with ice shard i would like to remind you that 2/3 of pokemon that are ice type are specially oriented so ice shard doesn't do them many favours, only abomasnow and mamoswine can use effectively and thats what makes them the only competitive ice types. I mean i can still use a choice scarfed glaceon with some sucess but u get the point

Originally Posted by Infinity Edge

Originally Posted by Zeb

Originally Posted by Infinity Edge

For example take Mawile, I bet many would call it a female gender only. Yet without having a male gender, Mawile becomes weaker in battle terms.

How so?

You don't know?

Male gender is the only one that promotes growth of Attack stat in pokemon. And since Attack is one of Mawile's main high stats, that will impair it in battle terms.( You need att for moves like Sucker Punch)

except gender doesn't affect stats at all

are you still playing gsc or what

Originally Posted by AceTogeTrainer

...only abomasnow and mamoswine can use effectively and thats what makes them the only competitive ice types. I mean i can still use a choice scarfed glaceon with some sucess but u get the point

You can also use a Weavile, the other competitive Ice type.

Though I don't know where this comes from. I believe the discussion was on Hail...

Originally Posted by Georgie Pie

except gender doesn't affect stats at all

are you still playing gsc or what

I was wrong, and I admitted it, more than once. Please read it all next time, because I'm sure people don't like to have to repeat themself.

Originally Posted by Venator

Originally Posted by AceTogeTrainer

...only abomasnow and mamoswine can use effectively and thats what makes them the only competitive ice types. I mean i can still use a choice scarfed glaceon with some sucess but u get the point

You can also use a Weavile, the other competitive Ice type.

So is Glaceon and Froslass. Btw, the fact that many people use same kind of strategy, does not mean that you should follow it too. Even your signature says so, actually.

Amazing. I failed and didn't notice until an hour later.

Originally Posted by Infinity Edge

Originally Posted by Venator

Originally Posted by AceTogeTrainer

...only abomasnow and mamoswine can use effectively and thats what makes them the only competitive ice types. I mean i can still use a choice scarfed glaceon with some sucess but u get the point

You can also use a Weavile, the other competitive Ice type.

So is Glaceon and Froslass. Btw, the fact that many people use same kind of strategy, does not mean that you should follow it too. Even your signature says so, actually.

Sorry, but I don't think anyone would use physical Ice moves (Ice Shard) on two specially oriented Pokemon.

Just because you can think it, does not mean it's a good thought.

I edited the quote, but since you commented on how Georgie Pie should "read it all", I thought you might have understood the context.

Originally Posted by Kyuuketsuki

The only thing I want changed about old Pokémon is something I've already mentioned in my blog: More formes for Rotom and different sprites for Arbok based on the region from which the Pokémon comes.

Mantyke is another one that they should change the sprite on as it's also meant to change depending on the region (the 'smiley face' on its back). I think Corsola should also have other forms depending on where it is (or just an evolution please). Someone else mentioned this previously, but I think Shellos/Gastrodon could also do with some new forms in the new region.

Originally Posted by Infinity Edge

So is Glaceon and Froslass. Btw, the fact that many people use same kind of strategy, does not mean that you should follow it too. Even your signature says so, actually.

Froslass' utility comes from her being the only pokemon that can simultaneously set up entry hazards and block their removal. Typically, the only attacking move you see on her is Shadow Ball to hit other spin blockers, or Blizzard when used in a hail team, certainly not Ice Shard. The thing is, barely any Ice-type pokemon see any decent use competitively because it's a horrible defensive typing, and while STAB on ice moves is nice, there are plenty of pokemon that can get the coverage Ice grants without taking on the weaknesses it has (see: every water pokemon/pokemon with fists). Hell, even Donphan gets Ice priority. Providing a significant buff to hail would not only bring it inline with the other weather types, but also allow for Ice as a whole type to see more use, I don't see what's so wrong about that. I've made my suggestions for how Hail could be improved, you may think that it doesn't need any changes, but its usage/complete lack thereof would suggest otherwise.