Thread: Is Nature vs Nurture the main theme of XY?

Earlier today, I put up an article on a website I write for about my theory on how the new Pokémon revealed yesterday will affect the story of Pokémon X and Y - or rather, complete it. Rather than writing out my whole argument again, I'll summarise my theory in bullet points:

- Both versions have a double helix on their Japanese logos. Mewtwo is known as the "Genetic Pokémon".
- The main villain team is not after Xerneas/Yveltol as their end-game. They are merely a key to gaining control of their true end-game - Éclair forme Mewtwo (if we believe the original leaker with the name. Although this theory still works if it is a "Mewthree" type situation). Note: Éclair can also mean enlightenment.
- Could Xerneas be based on Cemunnos, a God of Fertility, with Yveltol being based on Quatzalcoatl, a God of knowledge?
- Numerous Pokédex entries state that Mewtwo lacks compassion and thus cannot be controlled. Maybe the villain team in X believes the reason for that is Mewtwo's genes (nature), whereas in Y they believe it is due to Mewtwo lacking knowledge (nurture), so they aim for that version's respective legendary (or there would be two teams with those opposing beliefs).
- Pokémon BW introduced us to more philosophical themes in Pokémon with the basic "Is Pokémon training good or bad?" - the reception to that could have led to GameFreak to consider more in-depth debates in the franchise.

So yeah, what do you peoples think of the idea of Nature vs Nurture being a prevalent theme in the XY?

It's a well-written theory, but I have several problems with it. For starters, I don't see Mewtwo or the new Forme being considered more important than Xerneas or Yveltal, which are brand new version macots. You seem to have based that assumption on the impression that Xerneas and Yveltal aren't directly related to genetics, but it is too early to conclude that. For instance, if Xerneas turned out to be based on Gaia (Mother Earth) and Yveltal on Uranus (Father Sky), then that would presumably make them the ancestors of many Pokémon. They could be connected to Mew in that case; perhaps they created Mew so that it would hold the DNA of most Pokémon.

Nature vs. Nurture is a suitable theme, but why limit it to just one Pokémon? Especially in the case of Mewtwo, which is already so powerful to begin with. I don't see why the villains would think that Mewtwo's problem might lie in its superior DNA, and I don't see them advocating the idea of nurturing, either. I think it's more likely that the villains will focus on DNA and fail to recognize the importance of bonding and development.

You're right that the Mewtwo distribution wouldn't be redundant if Éclair Forme couldn't revert back to the original Mewtwo, but I find it hard to believe that the original Mewtwo will be rarer than its new Forme. It seems more likely that the event Mewtwo will trigger a hopefully lengthy in-game event which will eventually lead to Éclair Forme. Of course, there could be references to Mewtwo in the main story.

This is utter brilliance. This is why I love coming to forums and seeing people go back and forth and, potentially, (I think very plausibly with how well and how detailed your theory is) crack what seems to be a slip of information into something so full and so real.

Everything about this makes so much sense. I really, really hope it is on the mark just due to the B/W themes really drawing in all these big questions. This Nature vs. Nuture theme could flesh out to be an AMAZING game.

It also plays really well into the fact that so much hype was made over Newtwo as well as to the "Mewtwo Awakening," if one considers gaining knowledge as a type of awakening. It's kind of hard to imagine them putting a Mewtwo forme/Poke connected to Mewtwo/whatever-the-heck-Newtwo is in a Pokemon game without giving him much to do. So this argument seems really appealing for that as well, in a way, for the whole series by bringing up philosophical questions about the raising of Pokemon...how they can be nutured to be "good" or "bad" by their humans.

I'm personally excited by this theory. I think that it gives a starting point to what we can expect of the games. Maybe there will be more with DNA with the legendaries, but I personally truly enjoy this argument and believes it has a great deal of merit. I cannot wait to see how future information could contribute to it!

I see Gen 5 as nature vs nurture more then I'm seeing these games. For Gen 6 we have very little information on it (6 Pokemon, a new forme, and a 2 minute clip). Judging from the name and some of the settings it is very obvious this game will see a strong focus on science. As you mentioned, there is the helices in the Japanese logo, we have X and Y which is commonly related with chromosomes, and an observatory area which may serve as a lab that the regional professor works at and the evil team takes over during the climax.

One thing that I don't see why is happening is a focus on Mewtwo coming back and getting a new form 15 years after it was released. I want to see how Gamefreak is able to make an old Pokemon feel fresh.

Those are some great ideas you have but I don't feel it is nature vs. nurture.

Originally Posted by Silktree

It's a well-written theory, but I have several problems with it. For starters, I don't see Mewtwo or the new Forme being considered more important than Xerneas or Yveltal, which are brand new version macots. You seem to have based that assumption on the impression that Xerneas and Yveltal aren't directly related to genetics, but it is too early to conclude that. For instance, if Xerneas turned out to be based on Gaia (Mother Earth) and Yveltal on Uranus (Father Sky), then that would presumably make them the ancestors of many Pokémon. They could be connected to Mew in that case; perhaps they created Mew so that it would hold the DNA of most Pokémon.

And a connection to Mew, would go full circle and give them a connection to Mewtwo. If they can give the genetic information to Mew like you suggested, why can't they have the information to "fix" Mewtwo?

Nature vs. Nurture is a suitable theme, but why limit it to just one Pokémon? Especially in the case of Mewtwo, which is already so powerful to begin with. I don't see why the villains would think that Mewtwo's problem might lie in its superior DNA, and I don't see them advocating the idea of nurturing, either. I think it's more likely that the villains will focus on DNA and fail to recognize the importance of bonding and development.

In terms of advocating the idea of nurturing, it would all be for the goal of being able to control Mewtwo. Like how in Black/White, Team Plasma went with the message of training being wrong and cruel to Pokémon, so that people would release theirs and thus, Plasma would have less opposition when they obtained Reshiram/Zekrom. We could also have the possibility of two villain teams (like Magma and Aqua) - one going for the nature belief and the other nurture, which would lead to a strong argument from both sides instead of the usual "Pft, friendship is magic" nonsense the franchise has been spouting for years.

You're right that the Mewtwo distribution wouldn't be redundant if only Éclair Forme couldn't revert back to the original Mewtwo, but I find it hard to believe that the original Mewtwo will be rarer than its new Forme. I find it more likely that the event Mewtwo will trigger a hopefully lengthy in-game event which will eventually lead to Éclair Forme. Of course, there could be references to Mewtwo in the main story.

That is also a possibility, with Mewtwo being an event-only add on to the story. Like maybe genetics are involved in the story in another way, with the villain team making references here and there to Mewtwo being the basis for their experiments, then with this event you unlock Éclair Mewtwo and more of the background story. Personally though, I think it would be more interesting if GameFreak did centre the story around Éclair Mewtwo, with Xerneas and Yveltal still playing significant parts in the story.

Originally Posted by Joshawott

And a connection to Mew, would go full circle and give them a connection to Mewtwo. If they can give the genetic information to Mew like you suggested, why can't they have the information to "fix" Mewtwo?

Because I don't think that Mewtwo's genes need to be fixed, and I don't that the answer to nurturing it lies in other Pokémon. Since the problem was created by people, the solution should come from people who actually want to help Mewtwo.

In terms of advocating the idea of nurturing, it would all be for the goal of being able to control Mewtwo.

So they would get Mewtwo to be more compassionate by lulling into a false sense of security? That would detract from the meaning of Mewtwo's enlightenment.

We could also have the possibility of two villain teams (like Magma and Aqua) - one going for the nature belief and the other nurture, which would lead to a strong argument from both sides instead of the usual "Pft, friendship is magic" nonsense the franchise has been spouting for years.

While it would be very refreshing if the morale of the story didn't have strictly to do with the power of love and friendship, I just can't see how nurture could be presented as something wrong.

Personally though, I think it would be more interesting if GameFreak did centre the story around Éclair Mewtwo, with Xerneas and Yveltal still playing significant parts in the story.

I agree that it would be more interesting if Mewtwo were featured in the main story, which is why I was disappointed to learn about the movie event. But to me, Xerneas and Yveltal have the potential of being the most interesting version mascots since Ho-Oh and Lugia, so I don't think it would necessarily be better if Mewtwo trumped them in importance.

This is definitely an interesting alternative to the popular opinion of Generation VI as the "genetics" generation.

Numerous Pokédex entries state that Mewtwo lacks compassion and thus cannot be controlled. Maybe the villain team in X believes the reason for that is Mewtwo's genes (nature), whereas in Y they believe it is due to Mewtwo lacking knowledge (nurture), so they aim for that version's respective legendary (or there would be two teams with those opposing beliefs).

Or perhaps one team is going after Mewtwo, and the other one is going after Mewnew.

But like the others said, I think it's unlikely that they'll take the emphasis off Xerneas and Yveltal. I think it's far more likely that it'll be a small subplot post-E4 (when you go to catch Mewtwo/Mewnew).

While it would be very refreshing if the morale of the story didn't have strictly to do with the power of love and friendship, I just can't see how nurture could be presented as something wrong.

Because the Nature vs. Nurture debate itself touches upon how Nurture can be a negative thing, as a negative nurturing environment is believed to be what causes children to turn to crime and such. "Nurture" in this situation is not meant to be inherently positive.

Originally Posted by Silktree

Originally Posted by Joshawott

And a connection to Mew, would go full circle and give them a connection to Mewtwo. If they can give the genetic information to Mew like you suggested, why can't they have the information to "fix" Mewtwo?

Because I don't think that Mewtwo's genes need to be fixed, and I don't that the answer to nurturing it lies in other Pokémon. Since the problem was created by people, the solution should come from people who actually want to help Mewtwo.

The nature side would believe something like Mewtwo's disposition was caused by a biological problem, such as the gene mapping having the side effect of leaving the part of the brain that controls emotions like compassion underdeveloped or damaged, which would be fixed by Xerneas' power. The nurture side would believe that the method to completing Mewtwo is by showing it compassion and how to be compassionate.

In terms of advocating the idea of nurturing, it would all be for the goal of being able to control Mewtwo.

So they would get Mewtwo to be more compassionate by lulling into a false sense of security? That would detract from the meaning of Mewtwo's enlightenment.

Not if it was done in a way like, Mewtwo learns that some people are bad but others are good and although it initially is lulled into a false sense of security by the nurture side, when it becomes Éclair Mewtwo it sees their true intentions, but also sees that the PC (and other good characters) actually do have the best intentions.

We could also have the possibility of two villain teams (like Magma and Aqua) - one going for the nature belief and the other nurture, which would lead to a strong argument from both sides instead of the usual "Pft, friendship is magic" nonsense the franchise has been spouting for years.

While it would be very refreshing if the morale of the story didn't have strictly to do with the power of love and friendship, I just can't see how nurture could be presented as something wrong.

Ghetsis raised N by only showing him Pokémon that had been abused by humans, which helped cement his viewpoint that being a Pokémon Trainer was wrong, which ultimately caused him a lot of confusion when he met Hilda/Hilbert and his/her Pokémon. We could easily have something similar here.

Personally though, I think it would be more interesting if GameFreak did centre the story around Éclair Mewtwo, with Xerneas and Yveltal still playing significant parts in the story.

I agree that it would be more interesting if Mewtwo were featured in the main story, which is why I was disappointed to learn about the movie event. But to me, Xerneas and Yveltal have the potential of being the most interesting version mascots since Ho-Oh and Lugia, so I don't think it would necessarily be better if Mewtwo trumped them in importance.

It's mostly because they're not fecking dragons isn't it? xD
I do agree that they do have the potential to be big - but having Mewtwo involved wouldn't detract from that. They would still be playing very important key roles in the story. As we suggested before, we could also have a situation where Nature vs Nurture is still a significant part of the story, but Mewtwo is an event-only extension of that theme. Until we learn more about Xerneas and Yveltal though, it's hard to find a bridge that connects the two of them.

Thats a very great theory, I think its completely possible since it still ties into genetics. However, there are 2 problems that I have with what you cited:

While I definitely agree on Xerneas possibly being based on Cernunnos as well as representing the "nature" aspect, Yveltal being based on Quetzalcoatl and being a Pokemon of knowledge and morals feels off. Yvel specifically translate to "evil," which contradicts Quetzalcoatl's role in Aztec myth as a generally good god. Not only that, but in most cases its usually represented as a colorful bird/serpent, as opposed to Yveltal's very dark-ish appearance.

I know that we haven't really had truly evil Pokemon yet, but it seems like this "could" be the first case of a potentially malevolent one. To be fair a "dark" version of Quetzalcoatl can actually be pulled off:

Originally Posted by Tendou Soujirou

Because the Nature vs. Nurture debate itself touches upon how Nurture can be a negative thing, as a negative nurturing environment is believed to be what causes children to turn to crime and such. "Nurture" in this situation is not meant to be inherently positive.

If it ended up being like this for example, then I think theres no problem there with that part of the theory. Mewtwo itself could arguably owe it's very existence to being poorly nurtured.

The second part is basically what other people have said, Mewtwo shouldn't steal the main game show from Xerneas/Yveltal. However, it is still actually possible to have it be an "end game" legend like in the theory and still not steal the show:

In the main game story, before the defeat the Elite 4/Champion and all that jazz (or the villain team like in the original BW) Mewtwo could serve as a NPC role that helps you at specific points in the game. As you progress and learn more about the villains, their motivations and whatnot (which no doubt includes Yvel/Xern), you'll also learn about Mewtwo itself and why it may be subtly opposing them through the PC. This way, Mewtwo serves a sort of side role that doesn't upstage the new legends, but is still overall important to the plot. Perhaps the original Mew itself can be encountered as a NPC too at some point serving the same role.

In the post game however after the plot climax... due to either the failure of obtaining or using Xerneas/Yveltal, or perhaps like in this theory they are meant to lead up to the actual prize, that is when Mewtwo gains the central focus as well as the shift into it's new forme near the end of it. We should have no indication of such yet in the main plot of the game that this is the villain teams intentions, hopefully making it seem like a plot twist. Hints should be thrown out though, similar to how there were hints of Ghetsis betraying or using N/Team Plasma.

We also really need a good post-game plot line for once, so I hope that if something big for Mewtwo story wise is planned for X & Y, then it ends up similar to this.

Originally Posted by Colress

It also plays really well into the fact that so much hype was made over Newtwo as well as to the "Mewtwo Awakening," if one considers gaining knowledge as a type of awakening.

Well, I dunno if anyone made the connection yet, but the era of the Enlightenment (a period of time in world history, particularly in 18th century Europe that gave forth the rise of science and knowledge, rather than the religion and traditions accepted for centuries beforehand, through the great minds of a few brilliant people) is closely followed by an era known as the Second Great Awakening, an advancement in both religion and spirituality as well as knowledge and skepticism.

It's not that strong of an idea, but it just came to mind.

But I could see how Enlighten (as with the Eclair forme name) could very well be connected to Awakening, possibly as synonyms.

Wow, I actually really love this idea. I feel like Nature vs. Nurture would make for an interesting story, and having Mewtwo be the main focus of this argument was something I hadn't thought about, but I could definitely see it working after reading your explanation.

But I also think that these games are Xerneas and Yveltal's "time to shine," and I don't really think Mewtwo should take that away from them. I wouldn't mind it at all if Mewtwo got its own plot within the games because the story behind it could go in a number of different ways, especially with this new form coming into the mix. I really wish we had more info on X and Y now. I want to know the stories behind this new form, as well as Xerneas and Yveltal.

I mean, I guess Xerneas and Yveltal wouldn't be compromised too much if Mewtwo was the main objective of the new villainous team, since you did say that they would have some role in this whole thing, but eh. I still say that Xerneas and Yveltal should be given a story behind them of their own, at least for now. I mean, it is their debut games.

Mewtwo wont be the theme of the main game since the film is before the game release. Usually the main theme pokemon are in the films following release.

Personally with dlc and other modern game update methods I would love for the games to follow the anime/movies more closely. Say when movies released the game gets content to follow its story rather than just a event pokemon with OT FILM14 etc. A dlc following this films plot would be most welcome but I dout the whole game would.

On the Awakening film I could see a story about Plasma or whoever making these evil genesect and mewtwo stopping them and in doing so some event occurs to change him and awakens to a purer being or such. This line of thinking would suggest a new pokemon typing such as light etc since the new model doesnt clearly fall into an established bracket looks wise.

I could also see the awakening being purely Mewtwo decides its time enough to stop hiding and stop those who would create pokemon for evil. In doing so he meetings the new Mewtwo who has the personality of Amber Fujis Daughter etc.

The film could go alot of different places and I really look forward too it.....though weeks between tiny announcements does grate....

Working off this basic idea, I have one of my own:

Okay, well, Legendaries...I think they're still meant to be based off Diana the Moon Goddess/Apollo the Sun God, which would also work rather well with your theory about Nature vs. Nurture since Diana could represent the "virgin" natural world, such as "natural birth" and not tempting with genetics. Apollo, on the other hand, has connections with medicine, healing, which could be stretched to include genetics, and general ideas of human endeavor like poetry and such. There's also sort of an Icarus element related to the idea of getting "too close to the sun" as well I guess, which is of course a problem many people suggest when it comes to genetics.

Like Silktree suggests, both Pokemon could also have some genetic element to them as well...perhaps they contain the DNA of multiple Pokemon, the root of life somewhat (maybe they're Mew's TRUE children?) or something like that. That idea of them possessing some powerful, untainted chromosome is the main idea here.

I was thinking both Legendaries would be "unstable" like the Mythological Figure they're based on, both respecting and punishing humans. Xerneas would believe in natural purity and the natural bond between human and Pokemon, yet would punish those who cross boundaries and abuse nature. Yveltal would believe in the pursuit of knowledge and the "intellectual" bond between human and Pokemon, yet would punish those who try and play God. I was thinking you'd have them willingly team up with the Evil Team Leader, one focused on punishing those who try and exploit Pokemon for "science" and teaming up with Xerneas, one focused on achieving new strives in genetic research and sees "nature" as a mere boundary to cross and teaming up with Yveltal. In the end though, the Evil Team Leader would go too far, and end up being punished by the Legendary, with the player representing a balance between nature and science and having to step in and calm things down. I was thinking the "Nature" Evil Leader would seek to destroy Yveltal since it supports "science", which Xerneas would see as going too far, while "Science" Evil Leader would want to capture Xerneas and use it as part of their genetic research to create a God Pokemon, which Yveltal would see as going too far. Rather than these plots being Version Exclusive, both would play out simultaneously, with the Version influencing which Legendary you capture first to stop the other from killing the Team Leader since you're a good guy.

Originally Posted by Tendou Soujirou

Rather than these plots being Version Exclusive, both would play out simultaneously, with the Version influencing which Legendary you capture first to stop the other from killing the Team Leader since you're a good guy.

So the other mascot would be caught later in the game? Like Ho-Oh and Lugia?

Originally Posted by El_

n the post game however after the plot climax... due to either the failure of obtaining or using Xerneas/Yveltal, or perhaps like in this theory they are meant to lead up to the actual prize, that is when Mewtwo gains the central focus as well as the shift into it's new forme near the end of it. We should have no indication of such yet in the main plot of the game that this is the villain teams intentions, hopefully making it seem like a plot twist. Hints should be thrown out though, similar to how there were hints of Ghetsis betraying or using N/Team Plasma.

We also really need a good post-game plot line for once, so I hope that if something big for Mewtwo story wise is planned for X & Y, then it ends up similar to this.

This is what I had hoped for before the Mewtwo distribution was announced. Now I find it unlikely that Mewtwo will be directly catchable, but it still possible that the villains will go after it but not even the player will manage to catch it by regular means. Mewtwo not being caught could be justified by having it look for Mew on Faraway Island, which would be Game Freak's way of having us wait for a DLC event that would make both Mewtwo and Mew catchable. Impatient players would use the movie Mewtwo to "fast forward" to the final event with Mewtwo reverting to Éclair Forme due to the Berserk Gene being removed. But even those players would benefit from the DLC event, which would fill in the missing story details and make Mew catchable.