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  1. #31
    Registered User Caitlin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western black rhino declared extinct

    Gay marriage has nothing to do with rhinos being extinct, and if I understand the change to The Real World properly, is not a subject up for debate anymore. Let's bring this back on topic, shall we?

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    Default Re: Western black rhino declared extinct

    One may argue that the Western Black Rhino went extinct for not adapting to its current environment, in which humans are the most dominant species, according to the rules of survival of the fittest, but is there more to it than meets the eye?

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    Not a Power Ranger Ranger Jack Walker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western black rhino declared extinct

    Quote Originally Posted by Continent Turtle View Post
    Then let's hope a terrorist force releases small pox in India and China and Afrika, and then we have around three billion people less.

    Or a nucleair war.

    Or...

    Breeding zombies that explode after 4 billion are infected which leaves room for more people.

    Or the more legal options above.
    Even if you are joking, not cool. Just no.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Western black rhino declared extinct

    Quote Originally Posted by League View Post
    Uh, what "species" are we even talking about here? If a species is naturally dying off, it's not mankind's duty to protect it. (I'd advocate only saving small sample populations for scientific preservation/study and observation's sake, assuming we could figure what is dying out naturally.) If mankind's action is in any way responsible, then that's a little different. Regardless, men aren't required to preserve everything.
    Preserve everything? No, not really, but with mankind being, well, just about everywhere on this planet, we influence a great deal of ecosystems in many ways, and certainly should carry some responsibility for this. This is just a tragic case of man's desire that lead to the loss of a species.

    Beyond that, humans haven't killed that many different species of animals, at least when one considers how many different species there are. (This is one species of rhino out of many species of rhino, some of those others even flourishing.) As well, I'd like to note that man's duty is to man: should we worry about the harm we do when we eliminate malaria-carrying mosquitoes, or birds that can stop jet engines?.
    Well, we're certainly doing our best to try wipe some species out though.
    As for other species of rhinos thriving, why do you suppose that is? Certainly conservation has helped a lot in this regard. Or simply that this species wasn't so attractive for poachers.

    The last example is just silly though, because you're comparing an entire species going extinct with a few birds dying. As much as we wish it would be unavoidable, it might be better to remove the birds from the airport before they kill not only themselves, but other humans getting sucked into a jet engine. Unless you can stop birds altogether from coming to airports, then there's not really much we can do about it. But it's not like we're actively trying to remove a specific species.

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    The best ex moderator Oswin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western black rhino declared extinct

    When I come to power, this kinda bullshit isn't going to happen.

  6. #36
    Bulbapedia Administrator Force Fire's Avatar Bulbapedia Staff
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    Default Re: Western black rhino declared extinct

    Rhino Poachers are so going to be haunted by the sound of 100, 000 black rhinos...

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  7. #37
    No need for the disco Raves's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western black rhino declared extinct

    Oh, well done dickshit monkeys. Well fucking done.

    Excuse me while I find a way to bring life to Rhyperiors so I can go on a genocide of the ivory trade.
    Last edited by Raves; 12th November 2011 at 10:26 AM.

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    EV-Wizard/PeculiarBattler League's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western black rhino declared extinct

    Original Article:
    The IUCN points to conservation efforts which have paid off for the southern white rhino subspecies which have seen populations rise from less than 100 at the end of the 19th century to an estimated wild population of 20,000 today.
    Quote Originally Posted by H-con View Post
    a
    Preserve everything? No, not really, but with mankind being, well, just about everywhere on this planet, we influence a great deal of ecosystems in many ways, and certainly should carry some responsibility for this. This is just a tragic case of man's desire that lead to the loss of a species.

    Well, we're certainly doing our best to try wipe some species out though.
    As for other species of rhinos thriving, why do you suppose that is? Certainly conservation has helped a lot in this regard. Or simply that this species wasn't so attractive for poachers.

    a
    The last example is just silly though, because you're comparing an entire species going extinct with a few birds dying. As much as we wish it would be unavoidable, it might be better to remove the birds from the airport before they kill not only themselves, but other humans getting sucked into a jet engine. Unless you can stop birds altogether from coming to airports, then there's not really much we can do about it. But it's not like we're actively trying to remove a specific species.
    Ugh, I refuse to fight an emotional battle on your terms. In fact, I'd prefer a debate over terms. Upon creating/detailing terms made for the purpose of this exercise, I'd love to see where you would advise human intervention in the natural world on behalf of a single species. (And you may debate my terms as you like, add your own, etc.)

    Past Population: generally, a numeric value, detailing the general number of a population at one point, although numbers can be detailed (i.e., 15 females in 1992, 78 males in 1994); can be determined at many points (i.e., in 1908, in 1916) to show a change or failure in trend or expectations.
    Past Population, Direction: the direction a population was heading in at a past point of time, whether trending upwards, or downwards.
    Past-Present Reality: the nature of a population (i.e., females are monogamous, give birth to one infant every 3 years) and of the stability of that population at a point in the past.
    Population Effect (Past): the effect this population has on the environment (local and otherwise) as a whole (the food chain, other species of animals and plants, etc.), and on mankind.

    Human Reality: the nature of a humanity and/or its struggles at a point in time.
    Human Responsibility Point (Temporal), if any: the point at which human action changes the course of a population. (Note, this number could range from anywhere to the current day, to millions of years in the past, or, as well, could not exist. As well, this number can be suspected or documented.)
    Human Purpose, if any: the purpose of human action. (This "value" [not necessarily being numeric] is the one most fraught with "moral" implications: was it significant enough for humankind to alter, advertently [why is <--that a word, but not "inadvertently?"] or inadvertently, a population's course? Did humankind know what effects its actions would cause?)
    Human Effect: the effect human presence/action had/has, avoidable or not.
    Human Directional Influence, if any: the human effect human action has on a population.

    Modern Population: generally, a numeric value, giving either the estimated number or known number of a population; to be determined as one point, though ranges can be given, and recent numbers can suffice for current ones.
    Modern Population, Direction: the direction a population is heading in at the current point of time, whether trending upwards, or downwards.
    Modern Reality: the nature of a population (i.e., females are monogamous, give birth to one infant every 3 years) and of the stability of that population, at the current moment.
    Population Effect (Modern): the effect this population has on the environment (local and otherwise) as a whole (the food chain, other species of animals and plants, etc.), and on mankind.

    Future Population: generally, a numeric value, giving the estimated number of a population at a future point in time; to be determined as one point, though ranges can be given, and recent numbers can suffice for current ones.
    Future Population, Direction: the direction a supposed population (itself an estimation), at a point in the future, will be headed in (again, an estimation).
    Future Reality: the nature of a population (i.e., females are monogamous, give birth to one infant every 3 years) and of the stability of that population, at a moment in the future.
    Population Effect (Future): the effect this population will have on the environment (local and otherwise) as a whole (the food chain, other species of animals and plants, etc.), and on mankind.

    Human Action, Desired: the action mankind, individual groups, or governments singular or collectively should supposedly take, different constituencies advising differnt courses of action potentially.
    Human Effect, Desired: the supposed effect a recommended course of action will have; in many cases, the immediate effect, to a limited degree, assuming limited parameters, can be ascertained.
    Desirable Population, if any: the population of a species desired at a point in time; can be numeric or related to goalposts or current levels, or not exist at all.
    Desirable Population, Direction, if any: the direction and speed a population of a species is desired to be heading in at a point in time, and how fast progress is to be made in that direction.
    Desirable Reality: the desired nature of a population its stability, at a moment in time.
    Desirable Population, Effect?

    Human Effect, Undesired:
    Human Effect, Unknown:

    Some of this post is rushed, as, at the time of me posting this, I have to drop a scat. Roughly, I've put everything into about 5 groups of terms though, and I think the terms and the groups themselves are reasonable. The bit regarding the rhinos is quoted for a reason, but I've not gotten to that yet.
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    vas Bulbagarden Jabberwocky's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Western black rhino declared extinct

    It makes me so mad that this could have been prevented had harsher measures been taken against poaching.

  10. #40
    Hψ=Eψ H-con's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western black rhino declared extinct

    Quote Originally Posted by League View Post
    Ugh, I refuse to fight an emotional battle on your terms. In fact, I'd prefer a debate over terms. Upon creating/detailing terms made for the purpose of this exercise, I'd love to see where you would advise human intervention in the natural world on behalf of a single species. (And you may debate my terms as you like, add your own, etc.)

    While I do have better things to do than really show numbers that the black rhinoceros population collapsed over 30 years, I can surely bring some numbers to the table. Reading from the redlist (here) says the following.

    Listed as Critically Endangered as the population of Black Rhino has declined by an estimated 97.6% since 1960 with numbers bottoming out at 2,410 in 1995, mainly as a result of poaching.

    Throughout most of the 20th century, the Black Rhino was the most numerous of the world's rhino species. Relentless hunting of the species and clearances of land for settlement and agriculture resulted in the population being reduced from a probable several hundred thousand at the start of the century, to less than 2,500 by the early 1990s, the minimum population estimate in 1995 was 2,410 (Emslie and Brooks 1999).
    Of course, that's the general Black rhino population, that's only critical endangered after all. A 97 percent drop is pretty drastic, especially over 35 years. While the species as a whole is increasing (with help from conservation), with no reported sightings of the sub-species in question since before 2006, any expectations to seeing this again is pretty unlikely. As for effect on the ecosystem, I'm not really in a position to answer that question, that would be better for an actual biologist to answer, because I honestly don't know that answer.

    However, the human reality part is pretty easy. With horns going for exorbitant sums of money, with thousands of dollars being paid. African countries aren't very known for stability, and with easier access to high-powered weapons and corrupt officials make poaching relatively easy. The main reason for poaching can primarily (though not exclusively) be traced to Yemen, with the desire for knives. With a wealthy population, this created quite the "need" for horns. Add some mumbo-jumbo medicine to the list, and you've got two reasons why people poach rhinos. I really doubt the poachers would doubt that what they were doing would be catastrophic to the species, but quite frankly, I would assume that they wouldn't care as long as they got paid. This is of course excluding habitat loss, which is the minor factor (though it shouldn't be excluded) in the picture.

    As for future population, with strict conservation measures and anti-poaching measures, black rhinos as a whole is upwards, though at a rather slow pace. The population doubled over 15 years, that's not saying much when it was a mere 2400 individuals left when it started to increase. Whether or not this will stick, is dependent of the measures taken. The entire species is very vulnerable, not as much because of generally being too few than to being the prime target of poachers.

    The human intervention should be pretty clear in this case, however I can't really answer to what the population is desired to be at. It's certainly out of the question to have a population like it was 100 years ago, but 4800 isn't a stable number for a species so sought by humans. If their territory could stabilize when there was hundred thousands of them, it should be able to do okay with significantly less than that.

    You'd be better off asking a biologist though, because I certainly don't know specifics over the ecosystems that these rhinos populate, and thus my points are limited to just generally looking at the reasons to why they went extinct. Those are blatantly obvious though, I'm just pointing them out.


    This species end up telling how profit really just screws animals over. It's not as much about this specific species, but ignoring humans as a pretty destructive force in nature is very naive at best (a better example of this would be how grossly we're overfishing many species). Without severe conservation efforts regarding many species, this would only have happened sooner.

    The very notion that we should/should not intervene for a species we're deliberately destroying is not very cheerful. Should we evaluate all species according to a list and consider which are worth saving? Who gave us the right to play god? But of course, that's just an emotional battle, isn't it?

  11. #41
    EV-Wizard/PeculiarBattler League's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western black rhino declared extinct

    [2] Of course, that's the general Black rhino population, that's only critical endangered after all. A 97 percent drop is pretty drastic, especially over 35 years. While the species as a whole is increasing (with help from conservation), with no reported sightings of the sub-species in question since before 2006, any expectations to seeing this again is pretty unlikely. As for effect on the ecosystem, I'm not really in a position to answer that question, that would be better for an actual biologist to answer, because I honestly don't know that answer.

    [...]

    [5] The human intervention should be pretty clear in this case, however I can't really answer to what the population is desired to be at. It's certainly out of the question to have a population like it was 100 years ago, but 4800 isn't a stable number for a species so sought by humans. If their territory could stabilize when there was hundred thousands of them, it should be able to do okay with significantly less than that.

    [6] You'd be better off asking a biologist though, because I certainly don't know specifics over the ecosystems that these rhinos populate, and thus my points are limited to just generally looking at the reasons to why they went extinct. Those are blatantly obvious though, I'm just pointing them out.
    We can strike my "Population Effect" terms (past, modern, and future) in this scenario (emphasis), as various rhino populations are significantly lower than they could be and have been historically. (Assuming other various members [that not being limited only to animals, including also plants and microscopic organisms] in these local environments have had populations with consistently constant or consistently growing numbers--which is likely enough, rhinos and the goodies found thereon [hide, ivory] being rather exotic.)

    [3] However, the human reality part is pretty easy. With horns going for exorbitant sums of money, with thousands of dollars being paid. African countries aren't very known for stability, and with easier access to high-powered weapons and corrupt officials make poaching relatively easy. The main reason for poaching can primarily (though not exclusively) be traced to Yemen, with the desire for knives. With a wealthy population, this created quite the "need" for horns. Add some mumbo-jumbo medicine to the list, and you've got two reasons why people poach rhinos. I really doubt the poachers would doubt that what they were doing would be catastrophic to the species, but quite frankly, I would assume that they wouldn't care as long as they got paid. This is of course excluding habitat loss, which is the minor factor (though it shouldn't be excluded) in the picture.

    [4] As for future population, with strict conservation measures and anti-poaching measures, black rhinos as a whole is upwards, though at a rather slow pace. The population doubled over 15 years, that's not saying much when it was a mere 2400 individuals left when it started to increase. Whether or not this will stick, is dependent of the measures taken. The entire species is very vulnerable, not as much because of generally being too few than to being the prime target of poachers.

    [5] The human intervention should be pretty clear in this case, however I can't really answer to what the population is desired to be at. It's certainly out of the question to have a population like it was 100 years ago, but 4800 isn't a stable number for a species so sought by humans. If their territory could stabilize when there was hundred thousands of them, it should be able to do okay with significantly less than that.
    Well, a "subspecies" consists of a group that shares genetic traits and is geographically isolated. The local "human reality" (i.e., the human reality in the areas where these animals reside) is a terrible one--and, as you acknowledged, poaching is easy. (African countries aren't known for wealth either.)

    Part of that human reality in these areas can consist of government that don't have control of their own territories. While I am somewhat affirming what you're saying (as you've effectively said that too), I'm also saying that human intervention, though successful it may be in some places, can't be elsewhere and everywhere expected, no matter what other countries and international groups say. (That stated, I think you'd be happy, or sad but willing, to reach that conclusion.)

    I'd say that when the "human reality" value is depressing (that, and not simply "easy to assess"), then the "human intervention" course is difficult to assess, at least for those who actually have to make these decisions.

    [7] This species end up telling how profit really just screws animals over. It's not as much about this specific species, but ignoring humans as a pretty destructive force in nature is very naive at best (a better example of this would be how grossly we're overfishing many species). Without severe conservation efforts regarding many species, this would only have happened sooner.

    [8] The very notion that we should/should not intervene for a species we're deliberately destroying is not very cheerful. Should we evaluate all species according to a list and consider which are worth saving? Who gave us the right to play god? But of course, that's just an emotional battle, isn't it?
    Well, poaching is easily destructive, because that's illegally hunting what is officially protected. (And declaring an animal illegal game is an easy protective measure and doesn't interfere with human activity or localized environments... but it's ultimately an easy protective measure because it's hardly a protective measure, especially in lawless countries.) It can work for sustaining wild populations of fish and what not though.

    As far as evaluating what species we should save and selectively interfering... that's somewhat what you are recommending! (And I'm coming around too--I just had to play Devil's advocate and challenge orthodoxy for a bit.) And religious people of a stripe find that to be their duty too, finding it commanded of them to steward the earth and scat of the like.

    I also wouldn't say that it's profit that is screwing these creatures over... it's lack of profitability from non-illegal activities, and lack of oppurtunity. I don't think it is curbing human expansion and growth, even if supposedly for the sake of animals, that is the essence of wildlife preservation.

    @H-con--I actually overwhelmingly enjoyed your response, but perhaps that's because I demanded (somewhat, I guess) a strong one. (And, by the way, I felt the need to defend mankind in the kangaroo court of the animal kingdom and pokemon world--I've mostly just asserted that men [especially those in terrible straits] don't have to preserve every kind of animal, especially those who are on the downswing without human cause.)
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  12. #42
    Why not? JLomb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western black rhino declared extinct

    Man this sucks... the only thing we can do now is to never let anything like this happen again
    Boosh!

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  13. #43
    Hψ=Eψ H-con's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western black rhino declared extinct

    Quote Originally Posted by League View Post
    Part of that human reality in these areas can consist of government that don't have control of their own territories. While I am somewhat affirming what you're saying (as you've effectively said that too), I'm also saying that human intervention, though successful it may be in some places, can't be elsewhere and everywhere expected, no matter what other countries and international groups say. (That stated, I think you'd be happy, or sad but willing, to reach that conclusion.)
    I'm afraid you're right, which is a shame. Even how much we wish for it, it's impossible to do this everywhere, especially in a place like Africa, where there's a lot of other things that also needs the resources.

    Well, poaching is easily destructive, because that's illegally hunting what is officially protected. (And declaring an animal illegal game is an easy protective measure and doesn't interfere with human activity or localized environments... but it's ultimately an easy protective measure because it's hardly a protective measure, especially in lawless countries.) It can work for sustaining wild populations of fish and what not though.

    As far as evaluating what species we should save and selectively interfering... that's somewhat what you are recommending! (And I'm coming around too--I just had to play Devil's advocate and challenge orthodoxy for a bit.) And religious people of a stripe find that to be their duty too, finding it commanded of them to steward the earth and scat of the like.
    I disagree a bit here. I'd say that when humans are the main driving force of the destruction of a species like in this case, I would say it's humans job to, well, level the playing field a bit, because we're destroying it (thus "playing god", although that happens indirectly as an effect, not the cause). It's less about playing god in that regard and just trying to correct a mistake made by others.

    I also wouldn't say that it's profit that is screwing these creatures over... it's lack of profitability from non-illegal activities, and lack of oppurtunity. I don't think it is curbing human expansion and growth, even if supposedly for the sake of animals, that is the essence of wildlife preservation.
    No, what is screwing these animals over is a completely unnecessary desire for their horns for one use or another, both of which are ridiculous by any means (making decorated knives are just a show of money, and if it's worth an entire species going extinct because of that, then I certainly don't want to live on this planet anymore. As for medicine, that's so utter bullshit I won't even comment on it). The poaching would be minuscule if the factors driving it wasn't so strong (albeit it would exist, as some people like trophies and whatnot).

    As for stewards of the Earth and all that, I'd say that's

    I've mostly just asserted that men [especially those in terrible straits] don't have to preserve every kind of animal, especially those who are on the downswing without human cause.)
    I can agree on the latter, as this is just a natural process that's ever present. It would be foolish for me not to recognize this. I'm just very skeptical to pushing the limits in ecosystems. Better safe than sorry, and all that.

  14. #44
    never ever giving up J J M's Avatar
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    Default Re: Western black rhino declared extinct

    Quote Originally Posted by Continent Turtle View Post
    Then let's hope a terrorist force releases small pox in India and China and Afrika, and then we have around three billion people less.
    That would mean a good portion of the world population completely wiped out from just these countries...

    @League Just to make a point, we aren't selectively saving animals though. All endangered species are considered for conservation.
    Last edited by J J M; 14th November 2011 at 06:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Western black rhino declared extinct


    This just made Fluttershy cry, especially since she LOVES animals, our only solution is cloning the animal back into existence, and keeping it in American zoos for protection against poachers, what these poachers did is against international law, and is sick beyond comprehension.
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