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  1. #16
    Surrender now or carry on Bikini Miltank's Avatar Bulbanews Editor-in-Chief
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    Default Re: WE HAVE A POPE

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Lutz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikini Miltank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Lutz View Post
    So... you are shocked that the Pope is catholic?
    Did you actually read my post?
    Yes I did, as well as your latest post that is basically "The church needs to get on board because much of the world supports Gay Marriage". The problem with that is you expect religion to change just because views change.
    Again: not what I actually posted. I said the church was freaking out because mainstream thought is changing around them. They don't need to change. They're one of the most powerful organizations in the world; they can take centuries worth of damage before it starts to affect them in any sort of noticeable way. I am not suggesting that a pro-gay church is any sort of realistic prospect.

  2. #17

    Default Re: WE HAVE A POPE

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikini Miltank View Post
    The church opposes a lot of things. Some cardinals make noisy, hard-line opposition to certain things a bigger priority than others. Of course any cardinal under serious consideration is going to be tacitly anti-gay. But there are some who quietly follow the party line, and some who make it their personal crusade.
    And so far the only evidence you presented is that he got into a shouting match over Gay Marriage, do you honestly expect any high ranking Cardinal NOT to put up a fight on Gay Marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye Blue Monday
    Again, no one is saying that he wouldn't be expected to uphold the beliefs of the church.

    We're talking about if that is a cause where he'd put particular focus, as opposed to others.
    And what evidence is there that he has gone above and beyond what anyone else in the church would go on Gays?

  3. #18
    Surrender now or carry on Bikini Miltank's Avatar Bulbanews Editor-in-Chief
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    Default Re: WE HAVE A POPE

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Lutz View Post
    And so far the only evidence you presented is that he got into a shouting match over Gay Marriage, do you honestly expect any high ranking Cardinal NOT to put up a fight on Gay Marriage?

    And what evidence is there that he has gone above and beyond what anyone else in the church would go on Gays?
    A lot of countries have marriage equality. Those countries have cardinals. Cardinals who have echoed church teaching when questioned about it, sure, but have not sought to inject themselves into a political argument. Look into the past statements of any cardinal and you're going to find something anti-gay at some point; that's inevitable. But Bergoglio's rhetoric was seen as surprising within Argentina. Nobody was expecting him to be supportive of gay marriage, but the zealousness he brought to his opposition, and his equating gay adoption with child abuse, actually earned him a verbal smackdown from the president. This is my point. He could have quietly disapproved, as other cardinals have. He chose to fight on this issue, and that says something about where he stands within the church.

    The cardinals are not a uniform bloc of gestalt thought. They disagree with each other on lots of things. When it comes to the things that they all officially agree on, they prioritize some things over other things. This variety of thought is the reason that papal elections are necessary. I don't think it's a controversial statement to claim that not all popes will have identical stances on any given issue.

    My claim is simply that while the new pope was always going to be homophobic officially, there was the potential for a pope who was less openly homophobic than the one we got. Scola, for example, has said some uncharitable things about gay people in his books, but it's not one of the bullet points of his career in the same way that getting into a highly publicized fight with an elected government over the matter is.

  4. #19

    Default Re: WE HAVE A POPE

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikini Miltank View Post
    A lot of countries have marriage equality. Those countries have cardinals. Cardinals who have echoed church teaching when questioned about it, sure, but have not sought to inject themselves into a political argument. Look into the past statements of any cardinal and you're going to find something anti-gay at some point; that's inevitable. But Bergoglio's rhetoric was seen as surprising within Argentina. Nobody was expecting him to be supportive of gay marriage, but the zealousness he brought to his opposition, and his equating gay adoption with child abuse, actually earned him a verbal smackdown from the president. This is my point. He could have quietly disapproved, as other cardinals have. He chose to fight on this issue, and that says something about where he stands within the church.
    You will also find alot of Cardinals who seek to interject themselves into politics, and I still see nothing in what you say between his opposition to Gay Marriage to Gay Adoption as something that is not widely supported by the church.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikini Miltank View Post
    The cardinals are not a uniform bloc of gestalt thought. They disagree with each other on lots of things. When it comes to the things that they all officially agree on, they prioritize some things over other things. This variety of thought is the reason that papal elections are necessary. I don't think it's a controversial statement to claim that not all popes will have identical stances on any given issue.
    They may not, but I think it is safe to say, very few if any, are pro gay marriage and gay adoption merely because of the strong anti gay stance the church and their interpretation of scripture takes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikini Miltank View Post
    My claim is simply that while the new pope was always going to be homophobic officially, there was the potential for a pope who was less openly homophobic than the one we got. Scola, for example, has said some uncharitable things about gay people in his books, but it's not one of the bullet points of his career in the same way that getting into a highly publicized fight with an elected government over the matter is.
    But you are merely focusing on one fight, all of them are going to be largely anti-gay ( Again its the Catholic Church, what do you expect, as I said in my first statement, the Pope IS Catholic ), so why not look at the things that actually differentiate them, such as this Pope's work on the poor, or his very traditional means in that he rejects alot of the perks of his position.

  5. #20
    Surrender now or carry on Bikini Miltank's Avatar Bulbanews Editor-in-Chief
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    Default Re: WE HAVE A POPE

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Lutz View Post
    You will also find alot of Cardinals who seek to interject themselves into politics, and I still see nothing in what you say between his opposition to Gay Marriage to Gay Adoption as something that is not widely supported by the church.
    There is a difference between "The church believes being gay is a sin" and "Being gay near children is child abuse". I'm aware that every cardinal is going to believe the former. I don't think we should expect that they all also believe the latter. I left the church a long time ago and I am, putting it mildly, not a fan to this day, but even I'm not going to claim that every single cardinal thinks that children with gay parents are being abused, and that this is an appropriate opinion to loudly air in public. You are fully entitled to disagree, and my mother would be delighted that for once I'm actually arguing on the church's side!

    They may not, but I think it is safe to say, very few if any, are pro gay marriage and gay adoption merely because of the strong anti gay stance the church and their interpretation of scripture takes.
    At no point during this entire exchange have I claimed anybody senior in the church is pro-gay. I haven't even claimed that they're neutral on the issue. They are all various flavors of anti-gay. I have been at pains to point this out throughout this conversation.

    But you are merely focusing on one fight, all of them are going to be largely anti-gay ( Again its the Catholic Church, what do you expect, as I said in my first statement, the Pope IS Catholic ), so why not look at the things that actually differentiate them, such as this Pope's work on the poor, or his very traditional means in that he rejects alot of the perks of his position.
    We're talking about this because this is the conversation we're having. And we're having this conversation because, out of my original post, this is the bone you chose to pick. As I said way back at the start of this conversation, he is good in other areas - streets ahead of Benedict, at least, and apparently a lot better at talking to people to boot. Unfortunately out of all of the South American candidates they picked the one who's probably least enamored of Liberation Theology, but he's unlikely to have the visceral loathing of it that JPII had (and let's please not have an argument about that as well; I'm sure we disagree about that too and I'm content for it to remain so).

  6. #21

    Default Re: WE HAVE A POPE

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikini Miltank View Post
    There is a difference between "The church believes being gay is a sin" and "Being gay near children is child abuse". I'm aware that every cardinal is going to believe the former. I don't think we should expect that they all also believe the latter. I left the church a long time ago and I am, putting it mildly, not a fan to this day, but even I'm not going to claim that every single cardinal thinks that children with gay parents are being abused, and that this is an appropriate opinion to loudly air in public. You are fully entitled to disagree, and my mother would be delighted that for once I'm actually arguing on the church's side!
    Considering the age of many of those cardinals, the views of the church on gays, and their views on gays and children, I wouldn't doubt many of them would see gays adopting children as child abuse. Mind you not only are these ultra religious people, but they also grew up in the 50s and 40s, back then it was believed homosexuality could be spread merely by transfer of blood and other radical ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikini Miltank View Post
    At no point during this entire exchange have I claimed anybody senior in the church is pro-gay. I haven't even claimed that they're neutral on the issue. They are all various flavors of anti-gay. I have been at pains to point this out throughout this conversation.
    Then I do not see what you are outraged about, if all of them largely hold the same views on Gays, then who cares if they are vocal or less vocal about it, at the end of the day their decisions as Pope are going to be the same.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: WE HAVE A POPE

    Not to mention, this guy has been accused of not only ignoring the horrific plight of victims of Argentina's dictatorship and has been accused of being involved in the kidnappings of two priests by the Navy.
    Then again, which Pope hasn't supported a fascist regime?

  8. #23
    The best ex moderator Oswin's Avatar
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    Default Re: WE HAVE A POPE

    That was.... quick. I was expecting it to take much longer than this.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: WE HAVE A POPE

    Well, he sounds like a real winner:
    New Pope: Francis believes gay adoption is child abuse | Gay Star News

    Yeah, I'd say that is going above and beyond the church's anti-gay stance.
    Also, I'm sick of hearing about people who supposedly don't want us to have any rights "respect gay individuals." BULLSHIT. Do words like "respect" not have any meaning anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Lutz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikini Miltank View Post
    At no point during this entire exchange have I claimed anybody senior in the church is pro-gay. I haven't even claimed that they're neutral on the issue. They are all various flavors of anti-gay. I have been at pains to point this out throughout this conversation.
    Then I do not see what you are outraged about, if all of them largely hold the same views on Gays, then who cares if they are vocal or less vocal about it, at the end of the day their decisions as Pope are going to be the same.
    If they're more vocal and active about it, that has more of an impact on policy that impacts those of us who are not Catholic (because the Vatican often has a voice in creating international policy, and is the voice of the Catholic community which impacts countries where that is important to gauging support).

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  10. #25
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    Default Re: WE HAVE A POPE

    Oh of course the new Pope will be continuing the church orthodoxy. It took the church a thousand years to reach Vatican II and even now there's been a slight reaction to go back to previous traditions. A monolithic organization with a huge history tends to change at a glacial pace.

    Anyways I was hoping for a Pinoy Pope, but Latin America needed some representation.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: WE HAVE A POPE

    Nice to see them reach out globally and pick a pope from an entirely new region. They say Francis lives a very low-key life, living in a modest apartment with only the necessities. He wants to help the poor. CNN said that he probably picked his name after Francis of Assisi, who, among other things, helped the poor and lived a simple life. Although the new pope's a Jesuit and that organization was cofounded by Francis Xavier.

    As a fairly liberal-minded Catholic, though, I am concerned that the cardinals still want to stick to the old guard who doesn't want to change much. I do hope he can change some of the bureacracy in the Church, though.

    (and my father's name is Francis... Yay for new papal names!)

  12. #27
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    Default Re: WE HAVE A POPE

    Being a protestant, I'm hard pressed to care about who the Catholic Church chooses as its leader. The only thing I can hope is that this new pope can have as much influence for good as Pope John Paul II did. Pope Benedict XVI was an absolute snooze inducing bore. I expect that's why he resigned; he really wasn't accomplishing much, and I expect it was because he was in the shadow of Pope John Paul II. He wasn't really making headlines and didn't seem to have the capacity to do so. Though I've also heard he hated the job.

    Only way I would have been interested is if Cardinal Dolan had been chosen. That would have come as an ice-water-splashed-on-me-while-sleeping kind of shock. Then again, we've had some popes from unconventional places lately. Pope John Paul II was from Poland, Pope Benedict XVI was from Germany, and now Pope Francis is from Argentina.
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  13. #28

    Default Re: WE HAVE A POPE

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikini Miltank View Post
    Well, there's anti-gay and there's anti-gay. There's zero chance right now of a pro-gay pope, but there was hope for one who hadn't made anti-gay rhetoric such a priority in his career. This guy got into a shouting match with the Argentinian government.
    That makes me wonder about his thoughts on Argentina's groundbreaking transgender rights law.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: WE HAVE A POPE

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Naarghul View Post
    Pope Benedict XVI was an absolute snooze inducing bore. I expect that's why he resigned; he really wasn't accomplishing much, and I expect it was because he was in the shadow of Pope John Paul II.
    Um, I think it has to be something more than just being "an absolute snooze inducing bore" to be the first papal resignation in over half a millennium. There have been other "snooze inducing bore" popes that didn't resign.

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    Default Re: WE HAVE A POPE

    Honestly?

    He's a little worse than I expected on gay rights (mostly because of that "It's child abuse" statement; because frankly crusading against gay marriage actualy seems fairly usual for visible cardinals. Face it: those who will be contenders are those who will have been actively standing up for what the Church believe, not the quiet preachers. ) One way or another, no significant change was expected on that front. Anything like that would take decades. Generations, perhaps, even. Sad, but it's the nature of the beast.

    On the other hand, we have a Jesuit who ride the bus to work, a man who washed and kissed the feet of AIDS victims, a priest of the poor who picked the name of Francis of Assisi.

    This could well end up being a very interesting papacy.
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