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    Canada's Oshimen Shinobu's Avatar
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    Default USADA moves to nullify Lance Armstrong's record

    Full Article: The Associated Press: US doping agency erases Lance Armstrong's titles

    Summary:
    Every one of Armstrong's competitive races from Aug. 1, 1998, has been vacated by USADA, established in 2000 as the official anti-doping agency for Olympic sports in the United States. Since Armstrong raced in UCI-sanctioned events, he was subject to international drug rules enforced in the U.S. by USADA. Its staff joined a federal criminal investigation of Armstrong that ended earlier this year with no charges being filed.
    USADA, which announced its investigation in June, said its evidence came from more than a dozen witnesses "who agreed to testify and provide evidence about their firsthand experience and/or knowledge of the doping activity of those involved in the USPS conspiracy," a reference to Armstrong's former U.S. Postal Service cycling team.
    The unidentified witnesses said they knew or had been told by Armstrong himself that he had "used EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone and cortisone" from before 1998 through 2005, and that he had previously used EPO, testosterone and Human Growth Hormone through 1996, USADA said. Armstrong also allegedly handed out doping products and encouraged banned methods — and even used "blood manipulation including EPO or blood transfusions" during his 2009 comeback race on the Tour.
    In all, USADA said up to 10 former Armstrong teammates were set to testify against him. Included in the case were emails sent by Floyd Landis, who was stripped of the 2006 Tour de France title for doping, describing an elaborate doping program on Armstrong's Postal Service teams, and Tyler Hamilton's interview with "60 Minutes" claiming had personal knowledge of Armstrong doping.
    Had Armstrong chosen to pursue arbitration, USADA said, all the evidence would have been available for him to challenge.
    "He chose not to do this knowing these sanctions would immediately be put into place," the statement said.
    tl;dr A road cyclist has a doping scandal. Wicked shocker.
    Last edited by Shinobu; 25th August 2012 at 12:52 PM.

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    Default Re: USADA moves to nullify Lance Armstrong's record

    Well, I think it must be pretty devastating for some people. He was a real inspiration to a lot of people considering everything he's overcome.

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    Goronda Type Vice-Webmaster Evil Figment's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    Default Re: USADA moves to nullify Lance Armstrong's record

    Mind, he hasn't actually admitted to it - he claims he refuse to go to arbitration in the USADA system because no one ever actually won a case in there. I don't know how true that is, although I'm highly suspicious of a system where the USADA both investigate the case, write up the accusation, and organize the hearing. Judge, jury and executioner, much?

    Any which way, given how widespread doping was in cyclism throughout the era (ie, pretty much everyone who finished anywhere close to Armstromg in those race he won was also implicated in this or that doping case*), going after Armstrong for his win then is a perfectly futile gesture. Stinks much more of law enforcement types wanting to get their 15 minutes of fame by bringing down an icon/wanting to get payback for being unable to get him when it might have done some good (eg, years ago) than any real attempt to really improve any sport. Also probably some muscle-flexing politic of USADA wanting to make the ICU bow down to USADA will.

    IE, this may be a very true case (and likely is), but it's almost certainly being pushed by all the wrong people for all the wrong reasons.

    *Except that some of them got away with it, because they don't live in a country that venerate the icon-killing theory of law enforcement
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mintaka and Hurristat
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    Default Re: USADA moves to nullify Lance Armstrong's record

    I'm glad this has happened. We need a 0 tolerance policy in all sports and if it takes away his icon status good as it turns out he was a sham. Sure that will be hard for some to swallow but they will just have to get used to it.

    Also Evil Figment if it can be proved the ones finishing around him cheated too, disqualify them too!

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    Goronda Type Vice-Webmaster Evil Figment's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    Default Re: USADA moves to nullify Lance Armstrong's record

    Nothing has been "proven" with regard to Armstromg. At least not in any way that would stand up to even any loose approximation of a fair and impartial justice system.

    In fact, what's been proven with regard to Armstromg is that it CANNOT be proven beyond reasonable doubt he was on dope - the federal prosecutors dropped their investigation. The only reason USADA got away with this is because they don't have to prove anything to anyone except themselves: all they have to do is make the accusation, then "hold a hearing" (with their own people doing the hearing), and then to make the decision. It's the same entity doing this from start to finish, over matters which will ruin the entire life and career of people.

    It has more to do with the freaking Spanish Inquisition than any sort of reasonable truth-finding process. It deserves no respect whatsoever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mintaka and Hurristat
    He's an evil director / He'll give out infractions / Do something wrong / And he takes direct actions
    Then what'll he do?/ He'll permaban you / You find your name slashed / With a message, 'Adieu'
    Sooooo...watch out!
    "It is said that the federal government, if it was in charge of the Sahara, would run out of sand in five years. Private enterprise, being more efficient, would do it in half the time - and they'd make money off the bridges." - me.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton's last letter. Rest in peace, Jack.

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    Default Re: USADA moves to nullify Lance Armstrong's record

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Figment View Post
    Nothing has been "proven" with regard to Armstromg. At least not in any way that would stand up to even any loose approximation of a fair and impartial justice system.

    In fact, what's been proven with regard to Armstromg is that it CANNOT be proven beyond reasonable doubt he was on dope - the federal prosecutors dropped their investigation. The only reason USADA got away with this is because they don't have to prove anything to anyone except themselves: all they have to do is make the accusation, then "hold a hearing" (with their own people doing the hearing), and then to make the decision. It's the same entity doing this from start to finish, over matters which will ruin the entire life and career of people.

    It has more to do with the freaking Spanish Inquisition than any sort of reasonable truth-finding process. It deserves no respect whatsoever.
    When you say that, @Evil Figment;, I'm beginning to understand why Armstrong said he had enough of it.
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    Canada's Oshimen Shinobu's Avatar
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    Default Re: USADA moves to nullify Lance Armstrong's record

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Figment View Post
    The only reason USADA got away with this is because they don't have to prove anything to anyone except themselves: all they have to do is make the accusation, then "hold a hearing" (with their own people doing the hearing), and then to make the decision. It's the same entity doing this from start to finish, over matters which will ruin the entire life and career of people.
    I think this is how it works in all sports. There is the Court of Arbitration for Sport as a final appeal. I'm still confused over why USADA is handling this rather than the UCI. We'll definitely get some developments on this in the future since the UCI has the final say over his results. I've heard that Armstrong and the UCI don't have a clean relationship from fans, but I'd have to look into this more.

    I find his witch hunt claim to be dubious. He said the same thing in 1999. He tried to challenge USADA in court twice and his cases were thrown out both times.

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    Default Re: USADA moves to nullify Lance Armstrong's record

    I think this is how it works in all sports.
    And that's a joke in all sports. Especially when you're talking about accusations that will basically destroy the person's reputation for the remainder of their life. NONE of the rule sof due process - a fair hearing, an impartial judge, the right to hear witness and counter-interrogate them are respected. It's biased toward the "prosecution" in ways that make the freaking Phoenix Wright universe look like it ha a massive pro-defense bias.

    And the USADA and UCI are tug-of-war-ing about this. USADA claim UCI is forced to obey their ruling, UCI claims USADA has to demonstrate their claims.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mintaka and Hurristat
    He's an evil director / He'll give out infractions / Do something wrong / And he takes direct actions
    Then what'll he do?/ He'll permaban you / You find your name slashed / With a message, 'Adieu'
    Sooooo...watch out!
    "It is said that the federal government, if it was in charge of the Sahara, would run out of sand in five years. Private enterprise, being more efficient, would do it in half the time - and they'd make money off the bridges." - me.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton's last letter. Rest in peace, Jack.

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    Default Re: USADA moves to nullify Lance Armstrong's record

    @Evil Figment, you seem to be confusing general law with rules and regulations in sports. The law, quite simply, is an ass. When a referee makes a decision, you dont't see them call up 12 members of the audience and ask them to give a verdict, there isn't an appeal process etc.

    Also out of curiosity, What reason would the USADA have to go after one of their own people? And how is a US organisation able to strip someone of Tour de FRANCE titles? Surely it should a french organisation or an international organisation (whoever runs the Tour De France)

    (Does a US organisation (USADA) run the Tour De France???)

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    Default Re: USADA moves to nullify Lance Armstrong's record

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    Also out of curiosity, What reason would the USADA have to go after one of their own people? And how is a US organisation able to strip someone of Tour de FRANCE titles? Surely it should a french organisation or an international organisation (whoever runs the Tour De France)

    (Does a US organisation (USADA) run the Tour De France???)
    Keep in mind that the UCI has final say over his cycling results. They have not made a decision yet. The Tour de France is part of the UCI World Tour thereby subjecting it to the UCI's governance. USADA isn't just aiming to nullify his TdF placings; they want to nullify all of his results since 1998.

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    Default Re: USADA moves to nullify Lance Armstrong's record

    All our late '90s/early '00s sports icons are falling. First Tiger Woods, now this.
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    Goronda Type Vice-Webmaster Evil Figment's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    Default Re: USADA moves to nullify Lance Armstrong's record

    A referee in the middle of action doesn't have the power to destroy a man's entire career. The USADA does.

    The idea that such power can be exerted by ANY organization without following reasonable principle of justice is in every possible way unjust, tyrannical and unacceptable.

    How much obligation to deliver proper justice you have depend on how much power you have over the livelihood and existence of people. When you can destroy a man's entire career, you do not get to be judge, jury and executioner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    @Evil Figment, you seem to be confusing general law with rules and regulations in sports. The law, quite simply, is an ass. When a referee makes a decision, you dont't see them call up 12 members of the audience and ask them to give a verdict, there isn't an appeal process etc.

    Also out of curiosity, What reason would the USADA have to go after one of their own people? And how is a US organisation able to strip someone of Tour de FRANCE titles? Surely it should a french organisation or an international organisation (whoever runs the Tour De France)

    (Does a US organisation (USADA) run the Tour De France???)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mintaka and Hurristat
    He's an evil director / He'll give out infractions / Do something wrong / And he takes direct actions
    Then what'll he do?/ He'll permaban you / You find your name slashed / With a message, 'Adieu'
    Sooooo...watch out!
    "It is said that the federal government, if it was in charge of the Sahara, would run out of sand in five years. Private enterprise, being more efficient, would do it in half the time - and they'd make money off the bridges." - me.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton's last letter. Rest in peace, Jack.

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    Default Re: USADA moves to nullify Lance Armstrong's record

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Figment View Post
    A referee in the middle of action doesn't have the power to destroy a man's entire career. The USADA does.

    The idea that such power can be exerted by ANY organization without following reasonable principle of justice is in every possible way unjust, tyrannical and unacceptable.

    How much obligation to deliver proper justice you have depend on how much power you have over the livelihood and existence of people. When you can destroy a man's entire career, you do not get to be judge, jury and executioner.
    That's your personal opinion though. Not everyone wants sport to be as tedious as a court of law. You say you don't get to be judge jury and excutioner, but in most areas that does fall into the hands of one person. Think about employment, your boss has the power to fire you on the spot, that can also destroy lives, especially if someone has a family to provide for, are you saying we need a judge and jury process and a court of law to decide if someone can be fired or not?

    Yes in some countries like the UK there is an employment tribunal, but even that won't get your job back, you just get monetary compensation which actually isn't usually that much.

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    Goronda Type Vice-Webmaster Evil Figment's Avatar Vice-Webmaster
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    Default Re: USADA moves to nullify Lance Armstrong's record

    Where I am, wrongful termination suite can in fact get you your job back; they cover the vast majority of salaried employee (under the terms of the Act respectling labour standards, and they can get you some fairly significant damages as well.

    As for sports, seriously? "We don't want sports to be as tedious as a court of law?" Gee, good thing I'm suggesting that we keep the court-like procedure to after-the-fact investigations. Not to the actual sporting events! Or what, you think that investigation that happen years after the trace should not be tedious? You think that these - the investigations, not the actual competitions - being too boring to watch for your taste is a graver crime than their being able to be judge, jury and executioner without oversight?

    Yeah, sure. Let's destroy people's life work on the whim of an unsupervised organization so that their freaking investigations are not tedious to you.
    Last edited by Evil Figment; 26th August 2012 at 12:55 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mintaka and Hurristat
    He's an evil director / He'll give out infractions / Do something wrong / And he takes direct actions
    Then what'll he do?/ He'll permaban you / You find your name slashed / With a message, 'Adieu'
    Sooooo...watch out!
    "It is said that the federal government, if it was in charge of the Sahara, would run out of sand in five years. Private enterprise, being more efficient, would do it in half the time - and they'd make money off the bridges." - me.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton's last letter. Rest in peace, Jack.

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    Fire Ferrets Forever Mako's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: USADA moves to nullify Lance Armstrong's record

    This whole story is a farce. They're offering deals to known dopers, giving them passes if they testify against Lance. And in cases, they're going to be passing titles down to third, fourth, fifth because of the other finishers also being doping violators. The whole thing is just making their sport look awful.
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