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  1. #16
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    Default Re: Pope Benedict resigns.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Man In Black View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man In Black View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    1) Willingly speaks to the relevant authorities about everything he knows and learned about the scandal during his time as the Pope.
    Or if that doesn't happen:
    2) More controversially, he is arrested and made to answer questions.
    .
    Neither of these will happen. The very notion of this is ridiculous. You don't arrest a papal figure, the controversy surrounding such an action protects him. In the future, you'll probably see a lot more come to light concerning this, but to start calling for his arrest? Off base.
    Sure, to do so while he is currently the Pope would be impossible from a PR stand point (and possibly even a political one considering how the Vatican is its own country), but surely he'd have zero legal immunity once he's quit?

    Maybe it will happen a few months down the line when the attention is away from him, but it needs to happen.
    nope. Will not happen. Period. And putting pressure on people for it to happen is a waste of energy. When reports come out years down the line, they will come out. No one in their right mind would think to arrest a pope. Obama will not be arrested for the murders attributed to the Drones, nor will any governmental leader be forced to pay the crimes for their organization. Stop wasting your efforts and convert it into a positive force of change.
    I'm not saying arrest him and charge him for what was done - fairly sure Benedict XVI didn't rape all of those kids (and John Paul II did most of the covering up). But bring him in as a witness or something, get him to talk.

    People being too afraid to do it because of the position that person is exactly why this problem has become such a long and horrible one in the first place, so why should it continue to be like that?

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Pope Benedict resigns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man In Black View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man In Black View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    1) Willingly speaks to the relevant authorities about everything he knows and learned about the scandal during his time as the Pope.
    Or if that doesn't happen:
    2) More controversially, he is arrested and made to answer questions.
    .
    Neither of these will happen. The very notion of this is ridiculous. You don't arrest a papal figure, the controversy surrounding such an action protects him. In the future, you'll probably see a lot more come to light concerning this, but to start calling for his arrest? Off base.
    Sure, to do so while he is currently the Pope would be impossible from a PR stand point (and possibly even a political one considering how the Vatican is its own country), but surely he'd have zero legal immunity once he's quit?

    Maybe it will happen a few months down the line when the attention is away from him, but it needs to happen.
    nope. Will not happen. Period. And putting pressure on people for it to happen is a waste of energy. When reports come out years down the line, they will come out. No one in their right mind would think to arrest a pope. Obama will not be arrested for the murders attributed to the Drones, nor will any governmental leader be forced to pay the crimes for their organization. Stop wasting your efforts and convert it into a positive force of change.
    I'm not saying arrest him and charge him for what was done - fairly sure Benedict XVI didn't rape all of those kids (and John Paul II did most of the covering up). But bring him in as a witness or something, get him to talk.

    People being too afraid to do it because of the position that person is exactly why this problem has become such a long and horrible one in the first place, so why should it continue to be like that?
    You're not listening. This is something that absolutely will not happen. Looking at the immense support this man will have in The Catholic Church it's absurd to try to subpoena him and try to force him to testify as to the full extent of the Church's cover up of the sexual abuses case. Furthermore, the man probably doesn't know everything, or nearly as much as you'd like him to. He's a leader. He delegates. He was probably aware of the coverup and the sexual abuse incidents long before it was reported, but not in nearly the detail you're looking for. It is absurd to try and hold him accountable, you won't be able to and you shouldn't, there are people far more at guilt.
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  3. #18
    Who am I? Joshawott's Avatar Forum Head
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    Default Re: Pope Benedict resigns.

    Quote Originally Posted by No Prophet View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man In Black View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man In Black View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    1) Willingly speaks to the relevant authorities about everything he knows and learned about the scandal during his time as the Pope.
    Or if that doesn't happen:
    2) More controversially, he is arrested and made to answer questions.
    .
    Neither of these will happen. The very notion of this is ridiculous. You don't arrest a papal figure, the controversy surrounding such an action protects him. In the future, you'll probably see a lot more come to light concerning this, but to start calling for his arrest? Off base.
    Sure, to do so while he is currently the Pope would be impossible from a PR stand point (and possibly even a political one considering how the Vatican is its own country), but surely he'd have zero legal immunity once he's quit?

    Maybe it will happen a few months down the line when the attention is away from him, but it needs to happen.
    nope. Will not happen. Period. And putting pressure on people for it to happen is a waste of energy. When reports come out years down the line, they will come out. No one in their right mind would think to arrest a pope. Obama will not be arrested for the murders attributed to the Drones, nor will any governmental leader be forced to pay the crimes for their organization. Stop wasting your efforts and convert it into a positive force of change.
    I'm not saying arrest him and charge him for what was done - fairly sure Benedict XVI didn't rape all of those kids (and John Paul II did most of the covering up). But bring him in as a witness or something, get him to talk.

    People being too afraid to do it because of the position that person is exactly why this problem has become such a long and horrible one in the first place, so why should it continue to be like that?
    You're not listening. This is something that absolutely will not happen. Looking at the immense support this man will have in The Catholic Church it's absurd to try to subpoena him and try to force him to testify as to the full extent of the Church's cover up of the sexual abuses case. Furthermore, the man probably doesn't know everything, or nearly as much as you'd like him to. He's a leader. He delegates. He was probably aware of the coverup and the sexual abuse incidents long before it was reported, but not in nearly the detail you're looking for. It is absurd to try and hold him accountable, you won't be able to and you shouldn't, there are people far more at guilt.
    And you're not listening. I've never said to hold him accountable for it. It would be a huge miscarriage of justice to personally hold one man responsible for the worldwide actions of an entire church that spanned decades. However, he will know more than we currently do know now or at the very least, know someone who does.

    As for the reaction of the Roman Catholic Church if it were to happen? Frankly, pardon my language but I say fuck the Catholic Church's reaction. I and the world should care more for the people who were sexually abused in the past and their families receiving the justice they deserve.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Pope Benedict resigns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by No Prophet View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man In Black View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man In Black View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    1) Willingly speaks to the relevant authorities about everything he knows and learned about the scandal during his time as the Pope.
    Or if that doesn't happen:
    2) More controversially, he is arrested and made to answer questions.
    .
    Neither of these will happen. The very notion of this is ridiculous. You don't arrest a papal figure, the controversy surrounding such an action protects him. In the future, you'll probably see a lot more come to light concerning this, but to start calling for his arrest? Off base.
    Sure, to do so while he is currently the Pope would be impossible from a PR stand point (and possibly even a political one considering how the Vatican is its own country), but surely he'd have zero legal immunity once he's quit?

    Maybe it will happen a few months down the line when the attention is away from him, but it needs to happen.
    nope. Will not happen. Period. And putting pressure on people for it to happen is a waste of energy. When reports come out years down the line, they will come out. No one in their right mind would think to arrest a pope. Obama will not be arrested for the murders attributed to the Drones, nor will any governmental leader be forced to pay the crimes for their organization. Stop wasting your efforts and convert it into a positive force of change.
    I'm not saying arrest him and charge him for what was done - fairly sure Benedict XVI didn't rape all of those kids (and John Paul II did most of the covering up). But bring him in as a witness or something, get him to talk.

    People being too afraid to do it because of the position that person is exactly why this problem has become such a long and horrible one in the first place, so why should it continue to be like that?
    You're not listening. This is something that absolutely will not happen. Looking at the immense support this man will have in The Catholic Church it's absurd to try to subpoena him and try to force him to testify as to the full extent of the Church's cover up of the sexual abuses case. Furthermore, the man probably doesn't know everything, or nearly as much as you'd like him to. He's a leader. He delegates. He was probably aware of the coverup and the sexual abuse incidents long before it was reported, but not in nearly the detail you're looking for. It is absurd to try and hold him accountable, you won't be able to and you shouldn't, there are people far more at guilt.
    And you're not listening. I've never said to hold him accountable for it. It would be a huge miscarriage of justice to personally hold one man responsible for the worldwide actions of an entire church that spanned decades. However, he will know more than we currently do know now or at the very least, know someone who does.

    As for the reaction of the Roman Catholic Church if it were to happen? Frankly, pardon my language but I say fuck the Catholic Church's reaction. I and the world should care more for the people who were sexually abused in the past and their families receiving the justice they deserve.
    you should think more realistically. The amount of countries you would piss off trying to arrest THE POPE would be ridiculous. This is a man who can receive asylum in Dozens of countries. You want justice? Work to help the victims get over their crimes instead of chasing one of the largest organizations in the world.
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  5. #20
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    Default Re: Pope Benedict resigns.

    Quote Originally Posted by No Prophet View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by No Prophet View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man In Black View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man In Black View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    1) Willingly speaks to the relevant authorities about everything he knows and learned about the scandal during his time as the Pope.
    Or if that doesn't happen:
    2) More controversially, he is arrested and made to answer questions.
    .
    Neither of these will happen. The very notion of this is ridiculous. You don't arrest a papal figure, the controversy surrounding such an action protects him. In the future, you'll probably see a lot more come to light concerning this, but to start calling for his arrest? Off base.
    Sure, to do so while he is currently the Pope would be impossible from a PR stand point (and possibly even a political one considering how the Vatican is its own country), but surely he'd have zero legal immunity once he's quit?

    Maybe it will happen a few months down the line when the attention is away from him, but it needs to happen.
    nope. Will not happen. Period. And putting pressure on people for it to happen is a waste of energy. When reports come out years down the line, they will come out. No one in their right mind would think to arrest a pope. Obama will not be arrested for the murders attributed to the Drones, nor will any governmental leader be forced to pay the crimes for their organization. Stop wasting your efforts and convert it into a positive force of change.
    I'm not saying arrest him and charge him for what was done - fairly sure Benedict XVI didn't rape all of those kids (and John Paul II did most of the covering up). But bring him in as a witness or something, get him to talk.

    People being too afraid to do it because of the position that person is exactly why this problem has become such a long and horrible one in the first place, so why should it continue to be like that?
    You're not listening. This is something that absolutely will not happen. Looking at the immense support this man will have in The Catholic Church it's absurd to try to subpoena him and try to force him to testify as to the full extent of the Church's cover up of the sexual abuses case. Furthermore, the man probably doesn't know everything, or nearly as much as you'd like him to. He's a leader. He delegates. He was probably aware of the coverup and the sexual abuse incidents long before it was reported, but not in nearly the detail you're looking for. It is absurd to try and hold him accountable, you won't be able to and you shouldn't, there are people far more at guilt.
    And you're not listening. I've never said to hold him accountable for it. It would be a huge miscarriage of justice to personally hold one man responsible for the worldwide actions of an entire church that spanned decades. However, he will know more than we currently do know now or at the very least, know someone who does.

    As for the reaction of the Roman Catholic Church if it were to happen? Frankly, pardon my language but I say fuck the Catholic Church's reaction. I and the world should care more for the people who were sexually abused in the past and their families receiving the justice they deserve.
    you should think more realistically. The amount of countries you would piss off trying to arrest THE POPE would be ridiculous. This is a man who can receive asylum in Dozens of countries. You want justice? Work to help the victims get over their crimes instead of chasing one of the largest organizations in the world.
    Hold on just one minute here...did you just seriously suggest that victims of rape should get over it?

    Also, he won't be the Pope the moment he resigns on the 28th - that's the point. He'll just be an old guy.

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    Default Re: Pope Benedict resigns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMissingno. View Post
    So a man steps down from a meaningless post. Nothing lost or gained from where I'm sitting.
    I fail to see how the seat of the leader of the Catholic Church (and by extension head of state of Vatican City) is in any way meaningless.
    I fail to see how it's meaningful, so I guess that's where we differ.
    That's nice.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Pope Benedict resigns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    Also, he won't be the Pope the moment he resigns on the 28th - that's the point. He'll just be an old guy.
    He will never be "just an old guy" Just like the President or King of any country, when the term ends or a stepping down the said person is still a major figure. So just like that the Pope will stay in a prominent place and have a large voice in matters. Even if it is all unofficial it will still happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMissingno. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMissingno. View Post
    So a man steps down from a meaningless post. Nothing lost or gained from where I'm sitting.
    I fail to see how the seat of the leader of the Catholic Church (and by extension head of state of Vatican City) is in any way meaningless.
    I fail to see how it's meaningful, so I guess that's where we differ.
    He is the head of one of if not THE largest religion in the World, how is not meaningful? The Pope is one of the most important positions in the entire world. One could say he rules the largest country in a way except China and India have more people I think but close enough. So would you say the same if any other world leader stepped down? Just because it is a religious post doesn't mean it just affects those that believe in the said religion, in this case Catholicism.

    And how can you say the Papacy isn't meaningful? Go check out what Pope John Paul II did and see if that changes your mind. He was one of if not THE biggest world leader of the past 50 years. I could go on and on about what he did. So honestly while yes you are entitled to your own opinion it is just not reasonable at all. Whoever the Pope is becomes one of the most revered world leaders, and the office of the Papacy is the longest standing office. I don't know about some of the other religions so I might be wrong there but I don't think so.

    So yeah even if you don't believe in the faith doesn't mean the Pope is a meaningless person in a meaningless office.

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    Default Re: Pope Benedict resigns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulmaster View Post
    Whoever the Pope is becomes one of the most revered world leaders, and the office of the Papacy is the longest standing office. I don't know about some of the other religions so I might be wrong there but I don't think so.
    The only one I can think of is the Dalai Lama of Tibetan Buddhism. He's technically "retired", but only as the political head of Tibet. He's still the religious leader.
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    Default Re: Pope Benedict resigns.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMissingno. View Post
    So a man steps down from a meaningless post. Nothing lost or gained from where I'm sitting.
    It's in no way a meaningless post. He has a massive amount of influence.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Pope Benedict resigns.

    I think "meaning" must be read with some context.

    I think the position the Pope has is pretty meaningless as of today. That doesn't mean I don't think he doesn't wield extreme influence. I just think it's a pretty meaningless position to have. All it does is hold on to ensure that the narrow, dogmatic views in one of the biggest religions in the world are reinforced by an bunch of old men pulling the strings. Of course, that's just my opinion as an observer, believers would obviously have another opinion.


    But in short, influence =/= meaning. You could make all the fancy titles in the world, and have all sort of people listen to you. Doesn't make it meaningful in any sense of the word.
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    Default Re: Pope Benedict resigns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Blade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulmaster View Post
    Whoever the Pope is becomes one of the most revered world leaders, and the office of the Papacy is the longest standing office. I don't know about some of the other religions so I might be wrong there but I don't think so.
    The only one I can think of is the Dalai Lama of Tibetan Buddhism. He's technically "retired", but only as the political head of Tibet. He's still the religious leader.
    The Dalai Lama only started in the 1400s, the Pope goes all the way back to 0(or 33 depending on which you look at)

    Quote Originally Posted by H-con View Post
    I think "meaning" must be read with some context.

    I think the position the Pope has is pretty meaningless as of today. That doesn't mean I don't think he doesn't wield extreme influence. I just think it's a pretty meaningless position to have. All it does is hold on to ensure that the narrow, dogmatic views in one of the biggest religions in the world are reinforced by an bunch of old men pulling the strings. Of course, that's just my opinion as an observer, believers would obviously have another opinion.


    But in short, influence =/= meaning. You could make all the fancy titles in the world, and have all sort of people listen to you. Doesn't make it meaningful in any sense of the word.
    You have a fair point there H-con. And yes our opinions will differ but I still feel the need to respond.

    I can see that. But the Pope is very meaningful to us. He is the head of our church so to us he has all the meaning. And sure meaning=/=influence but it can come close.

    And it is not "an bunch of old men" sure the main higher up people are older but don't the older you get the wiser you become? At least most of the time. And there are plenty of younger men. I know one who is like 21 and is just entering the seminary(the school for becoming a Priest). Heck I'm even considering it, though I have a while.

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  12. #27
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    Default Re: Pope Benedict resigns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Man In Black View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshawott View Post
    1) Willingly speaks to the relevant authorities about everything he knows and learned about the scandal during his time as the Pope.
    Or if that doesn't happen:
    2) More controversially, he is arrested and made to answer questions.
    .
    Neither of these will happen. The very notion of this is ridiculous. You don't arrest a papal figure, the controversy surrounding such an action protects him. In the future, you'll probably see a lot more come to light concerning this, but to start calling for his arrest? Off base.
    Sure, to do so while he is currently the Pope would be impossible from a PR stand point (and possibly even a political one considering how the Vatican is its own country), but surely he'd have zero legal immunity once he's quit?

    Maybe it will happen a few months down the line when the attention is away from him, but it needs to happen.
    Technically, he wouldn't have any legal immunity. But there's no country in the world that has the... guts... to attempt to arrest / interrogate the former Pope. The only country in the world who'd have the ability to even consider it (the US) would never do it because of the uproar it would cause (both inside the US and outside with our European friends and trading partners). And the UN wouldn't be able to do it because the US would veto any decision like that.

    The truth can and should come out eventually. But it's not going to happen by attempting to strong arm a pope. That wouldn't end well.
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  13. #28
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    Default Re: Pope Benedict resigns.

    The Dalai Lama only started in the 1400s, the Pope goes all the way back to 0(or 33 depending on which you look at)
    I fail to see how how long it's been going as relevant in any way. You really can't justify something over something else by stating that it have been going on for a longer time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulmaster View Post
    I can see that. But the Pope is very meaningful to us. He is the head of our church so to us he has all the meaning. And sure meaning=/=influence but it can come close.
    Which is fine. A person can hold a lot of meaning to one person, but be "meaningless" to others.

    And it is not "an bunch of old men" sure the main higher up people are older but don't the older you get the wiser you become? At least most of the time.
    Not really. It might be an old saying, but it doesn't make it true, and I don't buy it at all. Not that I don't respect old people or anything, but wisdom is a term that can easily vary from person to person, to what they put into "wisdom". I certainly wouldn't trust old people and their vaunted wisdom in making potential life changing decisions based on their interpretation of scripture and dogma.



    As for what Mako is implying, I'm glad we live in a society where people can get away from a legal system by simply being (or have been) in a powerful position. Not saying anything on this particular case (doubt he was personally involved, but it could have been interesting to find out how much he actually knew. However, I don't think there is enough evidence to get him involved), but to say that the Pope should be exempt for something simply because he's the ... pope is just rubbish. Of course, the reason should be good, but that should apply to everyone else as well, so it doesn't really make a difference either way.

    And being the leader of an organization that hides the abuses does carry some responsibility. You can't just brush that aside by feigning ignorance.
    Last edited by H-con; 12th February 2013 at 05:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Pope Benedict resigns.

    This thread is not what I was expecting.

    I'm having difficulty thinking of how the Pope could be made to answer by legal authorities for issues like child abuse in parishes. These problems fall heavily on parishes and dioceses. Perhaps there's evidence thoroughly implicating Holy See in cover up efforts that I have not seen.

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    Default Re: Pope Benedict resigns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinobu View Post
    This thread is not what I was expecting.

    I'm having difficulty thinking of how the Pope could be made to answer by legal authorities for issues like child abuse in parishes. These problems fall heavily on parishes and dioceses. Perhaps there's evidence thoroughly implicating Holy See in cover up efforts that I have not seen.
    Even if there were that evidence it would still be very difficult to prosecute the Head of one of the most if not the most powerful organization on the planet.

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