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    Hero of the South Beausoleil's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: North Korea Threatens to Nuke Washington Over Sanctions

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye Blue Monday View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Lutz View Post
    Honestly like Chemical Weapons after WW1, I think nukes are so powerful that they just would not be used by any non crazy nation. Even if North Korea were to say nuke San Fransisco, we would not respond by nuking Pyongyang, we would engage in strategic bombing like we saw with "Shock and Awe" in Iraq, but the age of nuclear retaliation by 1st World Countries pretty much ended with the Cold War.
    So considering Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the U.S. (at least, WWII-era U.S.) is a "crazy nation"?
    Well, like Lutz said, that was in the context of that specific war, as chemical weapons were in WWI.

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    Default Re: North Korea Threatens to Nuke Washington Over Sanctions

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye Blue Monday View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Lutz View Post
    Honestly like Chemical Weapons after WW1, I think nukes are so powerful that they just would not be used by any non crazy nation. Even if North Korea were to say nuke San Fransisco, we would not respond by nuking Pyongyang, we would engage in strategic bombing like we saw with "Shock and Awe" in Iraq, but the age of nuclear retaliation by 1st World Countries pretty much ended with the Cold War.
    So considering Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the U.S. (at least, WWII-era U.S.) is a "crazy nation"?
    Well, like Lutz said, that was in the context of that specific war, as chemical weapons were in WWI.
    Well, that's why I was being tongue-in-cheek.

    But even so, I think the U.S. was well-aware, based on their testing, of just how devastating the A-bomb was going to be. So I don't think we can take the idea that "they didn't really know yet."

    Of course, today's nukes are much more powerful than the A-bomb, which was frightening enough on its own.

    Hi, I'm Rose. I love music, alcohol, pointless Internet debates and being a snob about my choices in entertainment. I write a lot. You can read some of my writing at Autostraddle.com, the best site for LBTQ women on the Internet, where I am a staff writer. Or the funhouse that is my tumblr. I also write music sometimes, and post the better fruits of my labors on my SoundCloud.

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    Default Re: North Korea Threatens to Nuke Washington Over Sanctions

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye Blue Monday View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye Blue Monday View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Big Lutz View Post
    Honestly like Chemical Weapons after WW1, I think nukes are so powerful that they just would not be used by any non crazy nation. Even if North Korea were to say nuke San Fransisco, we would not respond by nuking Pyongyang, we would engage in strategic bombing like we saw with "Shock and Awe" in Iraq, but the age of nuclear retaliation by 1st World Countries pretty much ended with the Cold War.
    So considering Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the U.S. (at least, WWII-era U.S.) is a "crazy nation"?
    Well, like Lutz said, that was in the context of that specific war, as chemical weapons were in WWI.
    Well, that's why I was being tongue-in-cheek.

    But even so, I think the U.S. was well-aware, based on their testing, of just how devastating the A-bomb was going to be. So I don't think we can take the idea that "they didn't really know yet."

    Of course, today's nukes are much more powerful than the A-bomb, which was frightening enough on its own.
    And the combatants in WW2 probably knew how nasty mustard gas was too, but they went ahead and used it anyway. It can be difficult to see the long term consequences of something like that, especially when you're desperate to win a war. So just as the developed nations of the world realized it's probably overkill to have soldiers walk away with dissolved eyeballs and permanently damaged lungs, they realized that weapons that devastate an entire city and leave the area uninhabitable due to radiation are probably overkill as well. Also not much as known about radiation at the time, especially its long term effects. This was a time when shoe stores had x-ray machines so you could see how well your shoes fit before you buy them. Hiroshima started being rebuilt in 1949, only 4 years after the bombing. For comparison, the Ukrainian city of Pripyat is still abandoned to this day due to the 1986 Chernobyl disaster. So you kind of could argue that they didn't really now yet.
    That's nice.

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    A Liver Made Fullmetal Misato Katsuragi's Avatar
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    Default Re: North Korea Threatens to Nuke Washington Over Sanctions

    @TheMissingno.;

    Exactly, I think it's less about "crazy" and more about the ability to "other" our enemy, to make them inhuman or at least into humans we don't care about. That's why the U.S. ended up using it on a country whose people they'd been spreading racist propaganda about for years, and even locked up American citizens who shared their ancestry during the war.

    The reason North Korea gives no fucks is because they've basically convinced themselves that everyone in the world who isn't them is inferior. So they really don't care how many of us they have to kill. (Although I still think these threats are baseless, basically just to say "hey! we still exist!")

    Hi, I'm Rose. I love music, alcohol, pointless Internet debates and being a snob about my choices in entertainment. I write a lot. You can read some of my writing at Autostraddle.com, the best site for LBTQ women on the Internet, where I am a staff writer. Or the funhouse that is my tumblr. I also write music sometimes, and post the better fruits of my labors on my SoundCloud.

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    Head Bus Driver Big Lutz's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: North Korea Threatens to Nuke Washington Over Sanctions

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye Blue Monday View Post
    Exactly, I think it's less about "crazy" and more about the ability to "other" our enemy, to make them inhuman or at least into humans we don't care about. That's why the U.S. ended up using it on a country whose people they'd been spreading racist propaganda about for years, and even locked up American citizens who shared their ancestry during the war.
    I think it would be good to take this to the campaign bus, as there are some historical holes in your logic, and it is ripe for discussion.

    http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/f573/japan-atomic-bomb-148143/#post4648494

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    Default Re: North Korea Threatens to Nuke Washington Over Sanctions

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Lutz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye Blue Monday View Post
    Exactly, I think it's less about "crazy" and more about the ability to "other" our enemy, to make them inhuman or at least into humans we don't care about. That's why the U.S. ended up using it on a country whose people they'd been spreading racist propaganda about for years, and even locked up American citizens who shared their ancestry during the war.
    I think it would be good to take this to the campaign bus, as there are some historical holes ( US was originally planning to use it for Germany but they surrendered before it was ready ) in your logic, and it is ripe for discussion.
    I'd be all for taking it to the Bus, I think this conversation has trended in that direction for a while now.

    (rest of post has been edited out to move to that conversation)

    Hi, I'm Rose. I love music, alcohol, pointless Internet debates and being a snob about my choices in entertainment. I write a lot. You can read some of my writing at Autostraddle.com, the best site for LBTQ women on the Internet, where I am a staff writer. Or the funhouse that is my tumblr. I also write music sometimes, and post the better fruits of my labors on my SoundCloud.

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    Rocket traditionalist Hunter Blade's Avatar
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    Default Re: North Korea Threatens to Nuke Washington Over Sanctions

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMissingno. View Post
    Intercepting an ICBM is risky business. It's possible to do, but it's still very difficult and our current missile shield is far from perfect. You need to remember that these things are traveling at about 6 kilometers per second, and it will be a surprise when it is launched so we won't be able to track it until it is well on its way. Then we have to send a missile up to meet it, traveling at 6 kilometers per second, in space. It's possible and it has been done in several tests, but people have to know that there is no magical AT field protecting the country.
    The good thing about this is that NK missile technology is large and clunky, as well as easy to track since half of the world is spying on them. They're just now reaching the missile capabilities that we had decades ago, so we shouldn't have much of a problem if they actually did launch one. Unless they've been hiding a computer virus for a couple years that would screw up our systems pretty badly and they launch that at the same time.

    On a side note, it's weird knowing that at one time my dad was one of, if not the foremost expert on current military nuclear logistics, so he would have known a ton about this 11 or 12 years ago.
    Last edited by Hunter Blade; 8th March 2013 at 08:44 PM.
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    Default Re: North Korea Threatens to Nuke Washington Over Sanctions

    North Korea better put together a plan a la Jericho, otherwise they're going to be helluva boned.

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    Default Re: North Korea Threatens to Nuke Washington Over Sanctions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Blade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMissingno. View Post
    Intercepting an ICBM is risky business. It's possible to do, but it's still very difficult and our current missile shield is far from perfect. You need to remember that these things are traveling at about 6 kilometers per second, and it will be a surprise when it is launched so we won't be able to track it until it is well on its way. Then we have to send a missile up to meet it, traveling at 6 kilometers per second, in space. It's possible and it has been done in several tests, but people have to know that there is no magical AT field protecting the country.
    The good thing about this is that NK missile technology is large and clunky, as well as easy to track since half of the world is spying on them. They're just now reaching the missile capabilities that we had decades ago, so we shouldn't have much of a problem if they actually did launch one. Unless they've been hiding a computer virus for a couple years that would screw up our systems pretty badly and they launch that at the same time.

    On a side note, it's weird knowing that at one time my dad was one of, if not the foremost expert on current military nuclear logistics, so he would have known a ton about this 11 or 12 years ago.
    My point is that you can't just say "we have a missile shield" and assume you're safe. No matter how good the rocket is, a ballistic trajectory is a ballistic trajectory.
    That's nice.

  10. #25
    Rocket traditionalist Hunter Blade's Avatar
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    Default Re: North Korea Threatens to Nuke Washington Over Sanctions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fandango View Post
    North Korea better put together a plan a la Jericho, otherwise they're going to be helluva boned.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheMissingno. View Post
    My point is that you can't just say "we have a missile shield" and assume you're safe. No matter how good the rocket is, a ballistic trajectory is a ballistic trajectory.
    Even if we tried for a complete shield, we'd have to clear the atmosphere of all the junk up there first so that the shield's satellites don't slowly get picked off one by one by malevolent space trash. But yes, even if we were able to do that, we wouldn't be safe. Simply monitor the satellites for a year or two, calculate where they will be and what the reaction times would be, then take specific ones out to create a path for the missile. Guess that's not really "simply", or even the easiest way, but there are too many faults in a shield to fully rely on it. Heck, if somebody was really desperate, they could just throw a few "exploratory" missiles into the atmosphere then detonate them to create a little more debris. But now I'm just rambling, so I'll stop.
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    Default Re: North Korea Threatens to Nuke Washington Over Sanctions

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Blade View Post
    Even if we tried for a complete shield, we'd have to clear the atmosphere of all the junk up there first so that the shield's satellites don't slowly get picked off one by one by malevolent space trash. But yes, even if we were able to do that, we wouldn't be safe. Simply monitor the satellites for a year or two, calculate where they will be and what the reaction times would be, then take specific ones out to create a path for the missile. Guess that's not really "simply", or even the easiest way, but there are too many faults in a shield to fully rely on it. Heck, if somebody was really desperate, they could just throw a few "exploratory" missiles into the atmosphere then detonate them to create a little more debris. But now I'm just rambling, so I'll stop.
    One of the problems with a space based shield is that there would be no way to defend the satellites from attack. Satellites are much easier to shoot down than ballistic missiles because you have plenty of time to track them.
    That's nice.

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    Default Re: North Korea Threatens to Nuke Washington Over Sanctions

    The idea that has been suggested that the U.S. and coalition forces could "easily" defeat North Korea is, and I apologize, rather ignorant. The KPA is the largest military organization on planet Earth. Period. Their active armed forces personnel is the fourth largest in the world but they have massive, MASSIVE reserve forces.

    According to Wikipedia:

    Active Personnel: 1,106,000 (ranked 4th)

    Reserve Personnel: 8,200,000 (ranked 1st)

    Total forces: 9,495,000 (Ranked 1st). The difference is made up of paramilitary personnel.

    Korean People's Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In terms of sheer manpower, a fight with North Korea would be a long, terrible bloodbath. While their equipment isn't as modern as that of the U.S. or South Korea, they still have plenty of equipment that they can use, especially in a defensive war.

    What makes this scary is that North Korea is now led by a young man likely eager to prove himself on the world stage. That means he's extremely unpredictable. All of our assumptions are based on North Korea's behavior under Kim Jong-il. Kim Jong-un reportedly (Or at least claimed to have) erased his father's regime shortly after taking power. Therefore, North Korea is now a devil we don't know. There's no telling what North Korea will do.
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    Default Re: North Korea Threatens to Nuke Washington Over Sanctions

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Naarghul View Post
    The idea that has been suggested that the U.S. and coalition forces could "easily" defeat North Korea is, and I apologize, rather ignorant. The KPA is the largest military organization on planet Earth. Period. Their active armed forces personnel is the fourth largest in the world but they have massive, MASSIVE reserve forces.
    I'll have to agree. We made that assumption over 60 years ago and we got our asses handed to us. Technology only goes so far.

    ...Though, they do say that wars aren't won on manpower or money, but food. The fact that more than half of the country's population is starving to death and their farms are falling into ruin tells me they may not have the resources to keep their massive army fed long enough to keep a war going for long. We could probably just declare war on them, mobilize some troops to the border and watch them panic themselves into starvation as they try to bunker up and play their little defensive game.
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    Default Re: North Korea Threatens to Nuke Washington Over Sanctions

    Quote Originally Posted by Caitlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Naarghul View Post
    The idea that has been suggested that the U.S. and coalition forces could "easily" defeat North Korea is, and I apologize, rather ignorant. The KPA is the largest military organization on planet Earth. Period. Their active armed forces personnel is the fourth largest in the world but they have massive, MASSIVE reserve forces.
    I'll have to agree. We made that assumption over 60 years ago and we got our asses handed to us. Technology only goes so far.
    Yes and no. In terms of aircraft, the Communists were using Russian Mig-15 fighters in the Korean conflict against the Americans' F-86. Both were fist generation jet fighters, and were quite an even match for one another (also one of my favorite jet rivalries of the Cold War). Nowdays the best jet fighter that Communist Occupied Korea has to offer is the Mig-29, which is a full generation behind our F-22 and F-35 and at least half a generation behind our updated F-15, F-16 and F-18s. I think it's safe to say that we could achieve air superiority over Communist Occupied Korea with relative ease.

    That's not to say that manpower is meaningless, that's far from true especially since the United States is already busy policing other parts of the world. The point I'm trying to make is simply that at least air technology was more or less even during the Korean conflict, whereas now it is not.

    ...Though, they do say that wars aren't won on manpower or money, but food. The fact that more than half of the country's population is starving to death and their farms are falling into ruin tells me they may not have the resources to keep their massive army fed long enough to keep a war going for long. We could probably just declare war on them, mobilize some troops to the border and watch them panic themselves into starvation as they try to bunker up and play their little defensive game.
    Especially considering that they receive foreign aid from countries like the United States in order to feed their people. However I believe in the event of a war their soldiers will probably tend to be much better fed than their civilians.
    That's nice.

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    Dragonborn Sorcerer Lord Naarghul's Avatar
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    Default Re: North Korea Threatens to Nuke Washington Over Sanctions

    Against North Korea itself, we rolled right over them. It was China that turned it into a trench war. The difference now and then is that North Korea has a military that's worth something now where before we were rolling over a tattered army using scraps given to them by the Soviet Union.
    In one fleeting moment from the land doth life flow...

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