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Thread: "Michael Dunn, Florida Man, Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Black Teen

  1. #16
    Registered User Caitlin's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Michael Dunn, Florida Man, Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Black

    Nobody is claiming that Trayvon Martin or this teen deserved to die. As far as Treyvon's case, his life was not threatened just because a man was following him. Both parties acted irresponsibly that night, and placing the blame squarely on George Zimmerman or Treyvon is silly at best.

    Regardless, what happened that night has very little to do with what happened this time. The facts are still coming out as the investigation continues. This "guilty until proven innocent" idea is getting a little out of hand. Not just in this case, but everywhere. It's getting quite worrying and quite annoying to see.

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  2. #17
    Onduru ruragittan disukaa Garren's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Michael Dunn, Florida Man, Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Black

    Nobody is claiming that Trayvon Martin or this teen deserved to die. As far as Treyvon's case, his life was not threatened just because a man was following him. Both parties acted irresponsibly that night, and placing the blame squarely on George Zimmerman or Treyvon is silly at best.
    If you say that Zimmerman was defending his life when he shot Treyvon, that means that you consider Treyvon's death a necessary reaction. And I'm sorry, but Treyvon was a 17-year old boy that was 5'11 and 158 lbs., and Zimmerman was shorter, but heavier (about 200 or so) and older, not to mention he was also a former bouncer meaning that he was formerly in a position where he would have encountered plenty of fist-fights. There's no reason he would need to shoot Treyvon in order to protect his life, that doesn't make any sense and is a gross over-retaliation.

    And I'm sorry I'm not placing the blame of Treyvon, but he's dead. :/

    As for the Dunn situation, there was a guy on the last page calling the teens "stupid" for playing their music too loud, as if that is a legitimate reason to shoot someone. For crying out loud, people in this thread ARE trying to say that they deserved to die basically.

    This "guilty until proven innocent" idea is getting a little out of hand. Not just in this case, but everywhere. It's getting quite worrying and quite annoying to see.
    The only reason the Treyvon shooting occured in the first place was because Zimmerman was following around Treyvon thinking he was guilty of a crime (probably because he was black and wearing a hoodie), so yes, you're right, the "guilty until proven innocent" idea is getting a little out of hand. :)

    And yes, I know you were referring to Zimmerman, but even then the dude wasn't even charged at first despite shooting a kid, and THUS the problem lies. He WAS considered innocent until proven guilty, but to an extent that just wasn't right. And fuck, if you look around after the incident occurred, there were countless people defending Zimmerman by trying to paint Treyvon as a drugged up MMA fighter feral-urban youth and all the other racist dog-whistling you see when stuff like this happens.

    Regardless, what happened that night has very little to do with what happened this time.
    Yes it does, as in both situations the Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law was brought up, and in both situations an older man basically took it upon himself to enforce "law" upon a teenager...and in both situations, a teenager ends up dead. They display a prominent issue with gun laws and, even if people like to cover their ears and cherry pick any black-on-white crime they can find, racism. There's no doubt in my mind Zimmerman followed Treyvon because he was black, and there's no doubt that Dunn probably saw some black kids listening to music and jumped into action because they were "hoodlums".
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  3. #18

    Default Re: "Michael Dunn, Florida Man, Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Black

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro ~ Bajeena View Post
    And I STILL don't think Treyvon deserved to die.

    Had Zimmerman NOT shot him, I do not think that Zimmerman himself would've died, unless you're into that "purple drank and MMA fighting!" idea. Beyond that, if Treyvon did attack Zimmerman, it was probably because a man was following him around at night in a car and probably felt (correctly, it turns out) that his life was threatened.
    We have no idea what either of them were thinking, however Zimmerman's head and nose was bashed in, giving credence to the story that he was on the ground with Trevyon bashing the back of his head in. If you think Zimmerman would have survived that, that is fine. However by law Zimmerman had the ability to react in self defense since Trevyon was engaging in a action that would have possibly killed Zimmerman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro ~ Bajeena View Post
    There's no doubt in my mind Zimmerman followed Treyvon because he was black, and there's no doubt that Dunn probably saw some black kids listening to music and jumped into action because they were "hoodlums".
    It seems you are acting almost as of a mind reader here, almost as if you WANT to find racism especially in this case when we have such little information.

  4. #19
    Registered User Caitlin's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Michael Dunn, Florida Man, Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Black

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro ~ Bajeena View Post
    If you say that Zimmerman was defending his life when he shot Treyvon, that means that you consider Treyvon's death a necessary reaction.
    Excuse me, but don't tell me what I mean when I know far better what I meant in saying that than anybody else. Nobody's life was threatened until the fists started flying, and going by current evidence, Treyvon threw the first punch.

    When Zimmerman made that snap decision to reach for his gun, he felt that his life was in danger. Considering the beating he got, it likely was. However, that does not justify Treyvon's death, nor does it mean it was a necessary reaction.

    And please, drop the racism bullshit. Defending a man from the "guilty until proven innocent" crowd just because he's a white man and the victim is black is not an indicator of racism.

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  5. #20
    Onduru ruragittan disukaa Garren's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Michael Dunn, Florida Man, Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Black

    We have no idea what either of them were thinking, however Zimmerman's head and nose was bashed in, giving credence to the story that he was on the ground with Trevyon bashing the back of his head in. If you think Zimmerman would have survived that, that is fine. However by law Zimmerman had the ability to react in self defense since Trevyon was engaging in a action that would have possibly killed Zimmerman.
    Zimmerman could have fought back with his fists, like I said he was a former bodyguard and the two were more than likely an even match physically, Zimmerman probably edging out a bit. There's no need to use a gun and shoot the kid, and if he was able to grab his gun, surely his hands were free? I don't believe one bit that shooting Treyvon was the answer, and Zimmerman should pay for what he did.

    It seems you are acting almost as of a mind reader here, almost as if you WANT to find racism especially in this case when we have such little information.
    You don't have to be a mind reader to think that a white, Florida gun-store owner started the whole incident in the first place due to racial profiling. It's pretty likely that's exactly what went down.

    Excuse me, but don't tell me what I mean when I know far better what I meant in saying that than anybody else. Nobody's life was threatened until the fists started flying, and going by current evidence, Treyvon threw the first punch.
    Excuse me, but I was referring to Big Lutz's post, not yours.

    Treyvon was being followed around in the middle of the night by a strange man in a car who had a gun and ended up shooting Treyvon. Why are you disregarding that? If you're being stalked in the night, and the man who has been doing it approaches you, isn't that a situation where you'd feel threatened? Why are you two both ignoring that factor and acting like Treyvon randomly attacked Zimmerman? Zimmerman was in the wrong for following Treyvon around, and shouldn't have approached him. He was asking for trouble, and with Dunn, it seems like he did the same thing...pick a fight with some kids listening to music.

    nd please, drop the racism bullshit. Defending a man from the "guilty until proven innocent" crowd just because he's a white man and the victim is black is not an indicator of racism.
    No, because I definitely think it was racial profiling that Zimmerman followed Treyvon in the first place. You can tell me to cut the bullshit all you want, but that's what I believe and I'm sticking too it. If you feel such a strong urge to defend the living, white man who shot a guy, then fine. In both situations, they shot someone who was, according to all known details, were unarmed, and that's wrong. I don't see why you both are so eager to defend two men who ARE getting a trial and will be be properly judged for their actions instead of, you know, the people who fucking died.
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  6. #21

    Default Re: "Michael Dunn, Florida Man, Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Black

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro ~ Bajeena View Post
    Zimmerman could have fought back with his fists, like I said he was a former bodyguard and the two were more than likely an even match physically, Zimmerman probably edging out a bit. There's no need to use a gun and shoot the kid, and if he was able to grab his gun, surely his hands were free? I don't believe one bit that shooting Treyvon was the answer, and Zimmerman should pay for what he did.
    When you have your head bashed in, you are not taking time to run through what your best options are, you are only trying to save your life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro ~ Bajeena View Post
    You don't have to be a mind reader to think that a white, Florida gun-store owner started the whole incident in the first place due to racial profiling. It's pretty likely that's exactly what went down.
    You realize by saying that YOU are engaging in racial profiling right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro ~ Bajeena View Post
    Excuse me, but I was referring to Big Lutz's post, not yours.

    Treyvon was being followed around in the middle of the night by a strange man in a car who had a gun and ended up shooting Treyvon. Why are you disregarding that? If you're being stalked in the night, and the man who has been doing it approaches you, isn't that a situation where you'd feel threatened? Why are you two both ignoring that factor and acting like Treyvon randomly attacked Zimmerman? Zimmerman was in the wrong for following Treyvon around, and shouldn't have approached him. He was asking for trouble, and with Dunn, it seems like he did the same thing...pick a fight with some kids listening to music.
    Because following a person around does not give the one being tracked the right to bash his head in. On the other hand when you get your head bashed in you have the right to shoot the person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro ~ Bajeena View Post
    No, because I definitely think it was racial profiling that Zimmerman followed Treyvon in the first place. You can tell me to cut the bullshit all you want, but that's what I believe and I'm sticking too it. If you feel such a strong urge to defend the living, white man who shot a guy, then fine. In both situations, they shot someone who was, according to all known details, were unarmed, and that's wrong. I don't see why you both are so eager to defend two men who ARE getting a trial and will be be properly judged for their actions instead of, you know, the people who fucking died.
    Possibly because we do not have enough details yet, and are not willing to automatically see the ones who are dead as being innocent, and the ones who are live as guilty.

  7. #22
    Registered User Caitlin's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Michael Dunn, Florida Man, Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Black

    Things are becoming slightly out of hand here, and I am partially to blame. For that, I apologise. I would ask that any future debates on this topic and on racial profiling when it comes to the justice system be taken to Nicoleta's Campaign Bus. (Since I've yet to request access to that forum, I will not be following the debate in there, but I've said my peace.)

    From now on, this topic will be about updates to the investigation and new evidence. Official warning.

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  8. #23
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    Default Re: "Michael Dunn, Florida Man, Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Black

    The thread is now open in Nicoleta's Campaign Bus.
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    Default Re: "Michael Dunn, Florida Man, Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Black

    Oh Florida, why you so insane? It's bad enough the wacky news I hear from Radio Dead Air, but those that include actual violence... I just can't, that's the first and foremost reason why I turned down a trip to Florida with my cousins.

    ''A tragedy from both sides'' What? Your dad shot them, it could have easily been avoided if he just... hadn't shot people for listening to loud music! For fuck's sake, I know it's your father, but personally, I wouldn't defend my father if he commited such a heinous act.

  10. #25

    Default Re: "Michael Dunn, Florida Man, Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Black

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Lutz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Quattro ~ Bajeena View Post
    When the facts about the Zimmerman case came out, it turned out that a 17-year old boy was shot and killed by a self-employed "neighborhood watchman". There was NO reason that Treyvon had to die, sorry to say.
    Umm no, we did not know about Zimmerman's head wound or nose wound initially, giving the possibility that Zimmerman had to fight for his life, such a thing drastically changes the story as it changes from murder on Zimmerman's part, to a act of survival. Again there is a need to wait till all the information comes out.

    And yet, even then the law is pretty clear. When you have a good reason to think someone is threatening you (like when they follow you down an alleyway with a gun to confront you, or bring a gun to you your car and start yelling at you) you're allowed to defend yourself, as evidenced by the very law he's invoking.

    Both of these guys left their houses looking for fights.

    Maybe the people they killed share a great amount of blame that isn't apparent yet, but even then, they're still criminals.

    Incidentally, the court agreed, and indicted him on not just second degree murder like we originally expected, but one count of first degree (pre-meditated) murder as well as three counts of attempted murder.
    Last edited by YesIcan; 27th December 2012 at 07:48 PM.

  11. #26
    Registered User zakisrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Michael Dunn, Florida Man, Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Black

    Let me guess: Michael Dunn has a Cuban mother.
    Last edited by zakisrage; 9th January 2013 at 08:30 PM.

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