Margaret Thatcher dead following stroke--now with live coverage! - Page 3

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  1. #31
    Head Bus Driver Big Lutz's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Margaret Thatcher dead following stroke

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    Yeah, current being the key word. During her time in power, Thatcher set new lows for public opinion of politicians, with her approval rating falling to just 25% in 1981, the lowest of any Prime Minister up til then. It's only a combination of the time elapsed since her position in power, dementia & finally death that's causing people to feel sorry for her again, and hence allowing her approval rating to creep back up.
    I don't see how that is relevant to how people feel about her now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    Oh, but 1/5th of the UK doesn't just hate Thatcher--they heavily hate her, and that's decades after the fact. As I mentioned above, when Thatcher was in power she set a record low for public approval, and eventually pissed everyone off so much that she got a knife in the back from her own cabinet. Thatcher was (and still is) the target of obscenely high &widespread degrees of hatred, which relatively few politicians (both here and abroad) have since managed to replicate.
    Thing is we are speaking of the current hatred, having 1/5th of the country HEAVILY hate you, is normal I mean in the months after 9/11 I bet I could find 1/5th of the country HEAVILY hate George W Bush. There is always going to be a small minority of a political wing that really hates the grand figure of the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    Actually, given that 300 people attended, and the population of Glasgow is ~600,000, it's more like 0.5%. Nevertheless, the fact that these street parties are happening at all is highly unusual, and a testament to how much a proportion of the country continues to despise Baroness Thatcher.
    Is it really? I mean I can go grab 300 like minded people from almost anywhere to party about almost anything. If you were seeing about 300,000 or so you would be correct, but such a tiny fraction should be a testament to how the vast majority of people are treating this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    I don't see your point. As we've already said, 1/5th of the country heavily hate her, and the public outpouring of malice directed towards her doesn't seem to contradict her. Yes, Thatcher has her supporters, but there are clearly a significant portion of people out there that have issues with the Iron Lady, and--whilst not in the minority--they are far from small in number. Sure, not all of them are verbalising their distaste for the Thatcher, but that doesn't make their problems with her any less real. At best, Thatcher was (and remains ot be) a highly divisive figure), as demonstrated by this debate.
    Was she a divisive figure? Sure I agree with that, for what she had to do to bring Britain out of it's decline would make anyone a divisive figure, but that doesn't make one worthy of the sexism and hatred directed toward her. Also my point was that how things are trending on twitter is a bad way to decide how a country feels about a person.
    Last edited by Big Lutz; 8th April 2013 at 10:39 PM.

  2. #32
    Have a pancake. Green Zubat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Margaret Thatcher dead following stroke

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Lutz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    Yeah, current being the key word. During her time in power, Thatcher set new lows for public opinion of politicians, with her approval rating falling to just 25% in 1981, the lowest of any Prime Minister up til then. It's only a combination of the time elapsed since her position in power, dementia & finally death that's causing people to feel sorry for her again, and hence allowing her approval rating to creep back up.
    I don't see how that is relevant to how people feel about her now.
    We're discussing her reputation as a hated political figure, something that her all-time low of an approval rating during her time in power supports. Likewise, the fact that roughly 1 in 5 people heavily hate her to this day, even in spite of her death, is also a testament to just how much she is hated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    Oh, but 1/5th of the UK doesn't just hate Thatcher--they heavily hate her, and that's decades after the fact. As I mentioned above, when Thatcher was in power she set a record low for public approval, and eventually pissed everyone off so much that she got a knife in the back from her own cabinet. Thatcher was (and still is) the target of obscenely high &widespread degrees of hatred, which relatively few politicians (both here and abroad) have since managed to replicate.
    Thing is we are speaking of the current hatred, having 1/5th of the country HEAVILY hate you, is normal I mean in the weeks after 9/11
    Personal opinion.

    I bet I could find 1/5th of the country HEAVILY hate George W Bush.
    But you haven't.

    There is always going to be a small minority of a political wing that really hates the grand figure of the other.
    1/5th is not a small minority.


    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    Actually, given that 300 people attended, and the population of Glasgow is ~600,000, it's more like 0.5%. Nevertheless, the fact that these street parties are happening at all is highly unusual, and a testament to how much a proportion of the country continues to despise Baroness Thatcher.
    Is it really? I mean I can go grab 300 like minded people from almost anywhere to party about almost anything. If you were seeing about 300,000 or so you would be correct, but such a tiny fraction should be a testament to how the vast majority of people are treating this.
    Personal opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    I don't see your point. As we've already said, 1/5th of the country heavily hate her, and the public outpouring of malice directed towards her doesn't seem to contradict her. Yes, Thatcher has her supporters, but there are clearly a significant portion of people out there that have issues with the Iron Lady, and--whilst not in the minority--they are far from small in number. Sure, not all of them are verbalising their distaste for the Thatcher, but that doesn't make their problems with her any less real. At best, Thatcher was (and remains ot be) a highly divisive figure), as demonstrated by this debate.
    Was she a divisive figure?
    How can you even ask that? That's one of the only things just about everyone can agree on about her. The poll evidence alone even shows this.

    Sure I agree with that, for what she had to do to bring Britain out of it's decline would make anyone a divisive figure, but that doesn't make one worthy of the sexism and hatred directed toward her.
    I never supported the sexism (though I've seen very little of it in the wake of her death, for what it's worth). The hatred, however, is entirely justified, I think.

    Also my point was that how things are trending on twitter is a bad way to decide how a country feels about a person.
    I don't need to decide things solely based on Twitter (not that I ever claimed to); the poll evidence already shows that ~1/5th of the country hate her, and as I've said before that's more than a small majority. A large minority of UK citizens hate her--case closed.



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  3. #33
    Head Bus Driver Big Lutz's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Margaret Thatcher dead following stroke

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    We're discussing her reputation as a hated political figure, something that her all-time low of an approval rating during her time in power supports. Likewise, the fact that roughly 1 in 5 people heavily hate her to this day, even in spite of her death, is also a testament to just how much she is hated.
    Well if we are to use her "All time low" we should also look at her high points at 50% and higher as her job went on. And again I have explained that 1 in 5 people is not really a big thing in the political sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    But you haven't.
    By April 2002, just a few months after 9/11 and before any real push toward Iraq, Bush had a 20% disapproval, and it vacillated between 20 and low 30s for the next year or so.

    Presidential Approval Ratings -- George W. Bush | Gallup Historical Trends

    For any politician you are going to hit a rock bottom low, and a ceiling that involves people who will hate that politician no matter what.

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    1/5th is not a small minority.
    Personal Opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    Personal opinion.
    It is, but it is also a show of how few they could get out. If the country was as radically against her as those that are partying, even if a large minority was against her with the same level of hatred as those partying, wouldn't we be seeing much larger numbers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    How can you even ask that? That's one of the only things just about everyone can agree on about her. The poll evidence alone even shows this.
    Not really, if she was truly a divisive figure you would have more of a 50/50 offset on if she helped or hurt the country, not a 50/34 offset.

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    I don't need to decide things solely based on Twitter (not that I ever claimed to); the poll evidence already shows that ~1/5th of the country hate her, and as I've said before that's more than a small majority. A large minority of UK citizens hate her--case closed.
    Personal Opinion. But even if we say a small or large minority ( and really I would consider anything below 1/3rd a small minority ), the whole point was those that are actually acting out are a small minority. The fact that as you said, only 300 people showed up, shows that no matter what people feel about her, it is only a small group of people showing off.
    Last edited by Big Lutz; 9th April 2013 at 01:18 AM.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Margaret Thatcher dead following stroke--now with live coverage!

    BBC News - Margaret Thatcher demo police officers injured

    Personally I'm not bothered what people feel about her, but people on both sides really should bear the public in mind and not throw things at the police in my opinion.

  5. #35
    Have a pancake. Green Zubat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Margaret Thatcher dead following stroke

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    Personal opinion.
    It is, but
    No, there is no but--it's still just your opinion and proves nothing.

    If the country was as radically against her as those that are partying, even if a large minority was against her with the same level of hatred as those partying, wouldn't we be seeing much larger numbers?

    [...]

    the whole point was those that are actually acting out are a small minority. The fact that as you said, only 300 people showed up, shows that no matter what people feel about her, it is only a small group of people showing off.

    We shouldn't be seeing people partying anyway! As I've said, it was a highly unusual, unprecedented situation, so seeing even a "paltry" 300 or so per city, with several cities taking party, is a testament to how reviled she was. It's like handwaving away concerns about public dissatisfaction with a regime because the riots breaking out are only a mere several hundred in number.

    Also, I never said the whole country was radically against her, as I recognise how polemic she was, and that she does have her supporters, so it makes sense that the entire country wouldn't be swept up into the antics (much as I would like)



    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    1/5th is not a small minority.
    [...]

    Personal Opinion. But even if we say a small or large minority ( and really I would consider anything below 1/3rd a small minority ),
    Well what do you expect? It's a pretty arbitrary title; there aren't any objective limits for what counts as a small or large minority. That said, it's usually implied to mean that a negligible portion of the population is involved. As I said, 1 in 5 people is already a pretty significant amount, and that's only the people who think she was very bad for the country. At least 1 in 3 dislike her, which you yourself admit is not a small minority, at least. Furthermore, her supporters only account for 50%, so it's not even like an large majority are in favour of her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    How can you even ask that? That's one of the only things just about everyone can agree on about her. The poll evidence alone even shows this.
    Not really, if she was truly a divisive figure you would have more of a 50/50 offset on if she helped or hurt the country, not a 50/34 offset.
    You're splitting hairs now. Even without an exactly even split, half the country like her, a third dislike her. That's a big division, ergo, she is a very divisive figure.


    And again I have explained that 1 in 5 people is not really a big thing in the political sphere.
    No you haven't. As far as I recall, you mentioned that an approval rating of ~20% at some point during one's career isn't uncommon, and that's true, but 20% satisfaction during power is not the same as 20% heavily hating you years after the fact. Not only is the depth of sentiment is greater, but the latter is more representative of people's true feelings. During power, things are still happening that can change people's minds, but decades after it's all already over people have made up their minds. In fact, they should be even more sympathetic due to a combination of time passing & sympathy for the politician's ailing condition. And yet, in spite of all this, 1 in 5 still hold a grudge, and I for one think that's a very big deal in the political sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    But you haven't.
    By April 2002, just a few months after 9/11 and before any real push toward Iraq, Bush had a 20% disapproval, and it vacillated between 20 and low 30s for the next year or so.

    Presidential Approval Ratings -- George W. Bush | Gallup Historical Trends
    See below.

    For any politician you are going to hit a rock bottom low, and a ceiling that involves people who will hate that politician no matter what.
    See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Lutz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Green Zubat View Post
    We're discussing her reputation as a hated political figure, something that her all-time low of an approval rating during her time in power supports. Likewise, the fact that roughly 1 in 5 people heavily hate her to this day, even in spite of her death, is also a testament to just how much she is hated.
    Well if we are to use her "All time low" we should also look at her high points at 50% and higher as her job went on.
    What, you mean the dizzying heights of 59%? If a large majority is defined as 2/3rds+, then during Thatcher's entire political career (and after, judging by the poll), she never gained widespread approval. Bush, by contrast, managed a whopping 90% at his high point, which is much higher than the Iron Lady's, and he was an international joke!

    Whilst it's true that every politician has their highs and their lows in their career, Thatcher's lows were particularly so, especially for the time, and her highs were far from impressive. At best, she was never well-liked by the large majority of people, and at worst was deeply reviled, and the situation remains largely the same today. As the poll evidence attests, whilst many (25%) loved her, almost as many hated her (20%), and to date no other politician has ever been as loathed or left as much of an impression on the national consciousness as Thatcher did. No matter which camp you sit in, it is indisputable that she was, and still remains to be, the most hated political figure in UK history.
    Last edited by Green Zubat; 9th April 2013 at 11:31 AM.



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  6. #36
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    Default Re: Margaret Thatcher dead following stroke--now with live coverage!

    Alright guys, settle down. Take it to the campaign bus.

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    Default Re: Margaret Thatcher dead following stroke--now with live coverage!

    I think it's sad that she died. I mean, she was suffering from dementia, which must feel awful. I do have a lot of respect for her, but of course I'd never talk about her in front of a real-life British person. (I have a lot of contempt for England anyway.)

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    Default Re: Margaret Thatcher dead following stroke--now with live coverage!

    Margaret Thatcher was truly an inspiring politician who spoke plainly no matter what people thought of her, and lead her nation out of the dark depths of socialism (even if, as she observed, they were only able to "loosen the corset of socialism, but not remove it" entirely). People should really learn from her- especially the European nations still gripped by the iron grip of socialism, and our own politicians on both sides of the isle who seem to believe that the welfare state is sustainable.
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  9. #39
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    Default Re: Margaret Thatcher dead following stroke--now with live coverage!

    The Irish hate her because the IRA went into prison and were quite pissed when they found out that they weren't political prisinors. They asked Maggie for a pardon, but she said no. So the IRA, including Bobby Sands, went on hunger strike in March 1981, and all died in May. There was great outrage in Ireland, and that was the end of her popularity in the Emerald Isle. I may be from the country where the Troubles happened (namely Ireland), but I don't hate Maggie for that. I hate the IRA and any other terror groups. I hate Maggie because of her insults to the Irish, and I quote:
    "You can't trust the Irish, they're all lairs" WRONG, MAGGIE! I AM NO LAIR!
    Although I don't hate her so much that I celebrate her death. I'm not THAT sick.

    Haters gonna hate

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