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  1. #31
    Fairy Queen Kaori's Avatar Forum Head
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    Default Re: Free Plastic Surgery for Bullying Victims: Your Thoughts?

    It doesn't, it gives you a temporary boost of ego, not true self confidence from your--and here is the clue--self, which is the only unconditional self esteem worthy of anybody's pursuit. The kind you can only get from being happy with yourself, not changing yourself and getting confidence because you're different and suddenly shallow people appreciate you. That kind of confidence is attention dependent, unreliable and frankly a bit unhealthy. I know this because I have been there - grown into myself and been found attractive only to find that the "confidence" my similar-minded friends and I got from suddenly being pretty to others was short-lived, needy and false. The mind is internal. With a bit of work, she can appreciate herself truly and get more happiness from instilling that than any constant adaptation to being superficially, stereotypically attractive can give her. And please don't repeat yourself that counseling doesn't work, because I highly doubt your experience is illustrative of counseling overall. Like with everything worth doing, it takes a lot of time, new attempts and work - and I know that's not easy in a suicidal/deeply unhappy mind (again, I have been there and I never thought I would ever get even the little bit better I have so far), but I find it frankly offensive that you are implying that counseling is ineffective at enabling people to get over their hurt, overcome suicidal feelings and become stronger while plastic surgery is suddenly an acceptable solution with acceptable morals to be sending out to kids. You are essentially saying "working at changing what's in your mind won't work, but having surgery on your ugly face so people find you attractive will", and I don't even know where to begin with such a ridiculous sentiment.

    If we gave our kids true confidence from day one rather than enabling others to tell people how they should look to be "pretty" I don't think quite as many kids would be feeling suicidal about their appearance and being bullied for it in the first place, frankly. Any girl, boy or person at all anywhere deserves to be taught to appreciate themselves without changing their appearance to gain approval, become what others would subjectively call beautiful or to get bullies off their backs and an ego boost from resulting superficial approval.

    Suicide as a result of low self esteem an other painful feelings happens, yes, but it is not unavoidable. Nobody said getting better, wanting to live on and loving yourself was or is easy. I am only just starting out on that road at eighteen years of age myself, and that is much earlier than many. But I sure as heck won't sell myself short by changing what's outside for an ego boost/others' approval when I can work at it and change my mind, giving me confidence no loss of looks or lack of approval can take away. When you make your confidence and perception of yourself as attractive extrinsic, you cheat yourself out of unconditional self appreciation and give yourself so much less than you deserve. I can't see how that is acceptable for anyone, much less a fourteen year old girl getting surgery before she's even grown into her own face to "fix" things other bitter, shallow people subjectively said were bad.
    Last edited by Kaori; 6th August 2012 at 06:54 AM.



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  2. #32
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    Default Re: Free Plastic Surgery for Bullying Victims: Your Thoughts?

    It's not going to help against bullies and outside of reconstruction, I don't think 14-year-olds should be getting plastic surgery anyway.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Free Plastic Surgery for Bullying Victims: Your Thoughts?

    If I was a parent with a bullied child, and they plead with me to let them do this, I'd tell them "no". As a parent, knowing better than your kids is part of the job description. This isn't going to do a damned thing to help. Even if the bullying stops, I'm quite certain she'll come to regret her decision further on down the line.

    It's been said already: the surgery is a "quick fix". She took the easy way out. Regardless if it works or not, I don't think that's something one should encourage a child to do.
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  4. #34
    Execute with No Mercy! Mitsuru's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Plastic Surgery for Bullying Victims: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    Are you saying that you would rather someone be their full self, have a horrible time and commit suicide than tone down aspects of their personality?
    I'd rather nobody committed suicide and instead took pride in their identities. Be it their large ears or how camply they behave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    I think most of the people here lambasting the parents are talking absolute rubbish, Great Lover if you saw someone getting bullied your own child, and refused to help, then shame on you, the only thing that would happen is the child would resent their parents for seeing them as blocking their escape.
    Firstly, sometimes escaping the situation doesn't truly help. There are countless people who would tell you that running away from the problem doesn't really help it (artificially changing your appearance, frankly, isn't dealing with the problem). Secondly, there is no mention of refusing to help the child; simply other, less extreme means of such. Arguably more effective ones, at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    now she is much more attractive, and will hopefully be getting attention from the opposite sex (or same sex if she wants that)

    Having people show an interest in you in that way does a lot for your confidence, more than any guy in a chair with a pen could do.
    I think that's a very shallow, fleeting form of confidence.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Free Plastic Surgery for Bullying Victims: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsuru View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    Are you saying that you would rather someone be their full self, have a horrible time and commit suicide than tone down aspects of their personality?
    I'd rather nobody committed suicide and instead took pride in their identities. Be it their large ears or how camply they behave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    I think most of the people here lambasting the parents are talking absolute rubbish, Great Lover if you saw someone getting bullied your own child, and refused to help, then shame on you, the only thing that would happen is the child would resent their parents for seeing them as blocking their escape.
    Firstly, sometimes escaping the situation doesn't truly help. There are countless people who would tell you that running away from the problem doesn't really help it (artificially changing your appearance, frankly, isn't dealing with the problem). Secondly, there is no mention of refusing to help the child; simply other, less extreme means of such. Arguably more effective ones, at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    now she is much more attractive, and will hopefully be getting attention from the opposite sex (or same sex if she wants that)

    Having people show an interest in you in that way does a lot for your confidence, more than any guy in a chair with a pen could do.
    I think that's a very shallow, fleeting form of confidence.
    It's not shallow at all. Everyone wants to be loved, everyone wants to find that special someone. Let's face it we go for partners who we are attracted to, it's a necessity as you need to be aroused to go all the way. As well as stopping bullying, this surgery has made her much prettier, the joke is on the bullies, they tried to bully and taunt her, but instead they unknowingly gave her a gift as now she is a lot more likely to have guys attracted to her and find a boyfriend. And make sure you don't cut this bit out of your quote "while this is obviously not a reason to get the surgery, and should not be a factor, it is nonetheless a nice bonus."

    Having no one show an interest in you can be very degrading and knock your confidence, a few counsellors and close family and friends telling you don't worry about it does nothing for your confidence. If everyone is continually bashing you, or ignoring you, then you're going to feel worthless. It's not being shallow to say that being pretty does help boost your confidence, that's a well known fact, you rarely see someone who people would describe as gorgeous as having confidence issues. Body image is very powerful, and although it is wrong, our appearance does affects elsewhere in life.

    If your ugly then you're 40% less likely to be offered the job, compared to someone who has average looks, 60% less likely than someone deemed attractive. Employers can hire who they want, they discriminate between who they want, and while its a horrible shallow thing to do, it does happen, and you can't do anything about it, you can't really punish business for not hiring ugly people. So again, not only has she escaped the bullying, got increased confidence, she is also more likely to get a boyfriend and a job. The benefits of this are endless. It's a real dis at the bullies because through all the cruelty they dealt towards her, its backfired on them, because now she has beauty too.

    While I said some of you seem a bit Disney, if we want Disney, I would love it if one of the bully girl's boyfriends decided that actually they don't want to be with a bully girl anymore and would rather be with this girl and find her more attractive, that would be such poetic justice.

  6. #36
    Turtles All The Way Down Continent Turtle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Plastic Surgery for Bullying Victims: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    Not true at all. You keep ignoring mine and Caitli's point that actually change does stop the bullying. The reason I feel so passionate about this and keep commenting so much is because I just get so angry when people who have no idea about bullying comment. I just feel that if I had followed your advice, I wouldn't be here posting today as suicide really did become an option. It was only because I was able to change myself that the bullying stopped. Is it right that I had to change myself NO! But in the end what would I prefer, to change, or to carrying suffering the bullying, I chose to change, and this is what she did too! And thank god that charity were willing to help!
    Are you talking about the change in your appearance, that made them stop bullying you? Because for me, it didn't work at all. My passion for video games stems from the fact that I was bullied. I didn't want to go to anything public, like a bar or a school party, because I could be bullied. When I was 6, the bullying began, because I had black frontteeth, because of the dehydration I suffered when I was two, or the antibiotics that followed. My mom doesn't know. But either way, when the front teeth fell out, and I got my new shiny spectacular adult teeth, the bullying didn't stop. They just picked the next nonsensical thing they deemed "strange", which would be normal to any other human being. They bullying only stopped when I changed my attitude. When I was younger I was more introverted and shy, which the bullies saw as a bullying invitation. When I became eleven, my attitude changed, and I became more open, happy and begin to think "fuck them" whenever someone tried to bully me. I ignored them, and it wasn't funny for them anymore. The bullying continued for a little while, until I was 14. I became a towering hulk for my age, because I had an early grow spurt. And I wasn't afraid to ask help from teachers and my parents anymore.

    Nowadays I still have a eating problem, because if I got sad, or bullied or whatever, I began to eat. With the problems in my family, depressions, divorces, that hasn't stopped. That's why I'm now overweight. But people stopped bullying me. I became fat, but they didn't bully me anymore. Because I changed my attitude.

    tl;dr: Changing your attitude and way of handling things stops bullying. Help is sometimes neccesary, as someone with authority, can drill bullies into the ground.

    Thanks for reading.
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  7. #37
    Not even my final form GreatLiver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Plastic Surgery for Bullying Victims: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    If your ugly then you're 40% less likely to be offered the job, compared to someone who has average looks, 60% less likely than someone deemed attractive. Employers can hire who they want, they discriminate between who they want, and while its a horrible shallow thing to do, it does happen, and you can't do anything about it, you can't really punish business for not hiring ugly people. So again, not only has she escaped the bullying, got increased confidence, she is also more likely to get a boyfriend and a job. The benefits of this are endless. It's a real dis at the bullies because through all the cruelty they dealt towards her, its backfired on them, because now she has beauty too.
    That is completely irrelevant and untrue in the sense you're implying. This girl isn't ugly, she's 14. That statistic applies to people seeking employment who have severe asymmetry, other disfigurements, or obviously do not put effort into their appearance such as bad hygiene or dirty clothes. She's going to grow up into a completely normal looking person. You know the only thing that would deter an employer from employing this girl at the moment? The fact that she is 14. In 10 years, she will look like a normal human being, having had the surgery or not.

    I cannot even imagine how poorly the parents response must have affected the girl. Them allowing her the surgery simply reinforces her belief that she is unattractive. The parents are basically agreeing with the bullies by not comforting their daughter and letting her know that she isn't ugly, she's just going through the same awkward years every other person goes through.

    This hasn't backfired on the bullies at all. The girl still will have low confidence, and the bullies will know that and just find something new to ridicule her for, quite probably the fact that she went along and had surgery. If anything it'll backfire on the parents who think this will quickly fix the problem, when it will really just lead to even more problems.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Free Plastic Surgery for Bullying Victims: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Continent Turtle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    Not true at all. You keep ignoring mine and Caitli's point that actually change does stop the bullying. The reason I feel so passionate about this and keep commenting so much is because I just get so angry when people who have no idea about bullying comment. I just feel that if I had followed your advice, I wouldn't be here posting today as suicide really did become an option. It was only because I was able to change myself that the bullying stopped. Is it right that I had to change myself NO! But in the end what would I prefer, to change, or to carrying suffering the bullying, I chose to change, and this is what she did too! And thank god that charity were willing to help!
    Are you talking about the change in your appearance, that made them stop bullying you? Because for me, it didn't work at all. My passion for video games stems from the fact that I was bullied. I didn't want to go to anything public, like a bar or a school party, because I could be bullied. When I was 6, the bullying began, because I had black frontteeth, because of the dehydration I suffered when I was two, or the antibiotics that followed. My mom doesn't know. But either way, when the front teeth fell out, and I got my new shiny spectacular adult teeth, the bullying didn't stop. They just picked the next nonsensical thing they deemed "strange", which would be normal to any other human being. They bullying only stopped when I changed my attitude. When I was younger I was more introverted and shy, which the bullies saw as a bullying invitation. When I became eleven, my attitude changed, and I became more open, happy and begin to think "fuck them" whenever someone tried to bully me. I ignored them, and it wasn't funny for them anymore. The bullying continued for a little while, until I was 14. I became a towering hulk for my age, because I had an early grow spurt. And I wasn't afraid to ask help from teachers and my parents anymore.

    Nowadays I still have a eating problem, because if I got sad, or bullied or whatever, I began to eat. With the problems in my family, depressions, divorces, that hasn't stopped. That's why I'm now overweight. But people stopped bullying me. I became fat, but they didn't bully me anymore. Because I changed my attitude.

    tl;dr: Changing your attitude and way of handling things stops bullying. Help is sometimes neccesary, as someone with authority, can drill bullies into the ground.

    Thanks for reading.
    I did read it all, and it links with my point earlier about bullying not being a one solution fits all. I always did try and ignore it and think "fuck it" I was always told the myth that they won't bully you if you don't give them a reaction because they will get bored of it. That didn't work, they didn't get bored because they entertained the pack, the all found it funny and joint in, thus encouraging the ring leaders to still do it.

    I also went through all the school authoirities etc, but it didn't work, they would punish the ones who did whatever, but then some of their other friends would do it. There was too many of them for the school to realistically punish them all. A few of them got threatened with expulsion, but even that didn't change, and I think the school knew there was too many of them to expel, our class size would be greatly reduced if they were expelled.

    The other one was if you fight back they won't. When they used to hit me with bottles and stuff, or rugby tackle me to the floor I mostly tried to run away or just pick myself up and carry on, one day I did fight back, all that happened was I got beaten up.

    FOR ME, the only thing that did work was changing my appearance.

  9. #39
    Execute with No Mercy! Mitsuru's Avatar
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    Default Re: Free Plastic Surgery for Bullying Victims: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    It's not shallow at all. Everyone wants to be loved, everyone wants to find that special someone. Let's face it we go for partners who we are attracted to, it's a necessity as you need to be aroused to go all the way. As well as stopping bullying, this surgery has made her much prettier, the joke is on the bullies, they tried to bully and taunt her, but instead they unknowingly gave her a gift as now she is a lot more likely to have guys attracted to her and find a boyfriend.
    There are an infinite amount of factors to love, of which sexual attraction is only one. This girl could still go through life and live it happily.
    Also, you seem to be implying that she was ugly before. I didn't see anything wrong with her. Let alone the fact that she's still growing into her features, something repeatedly stated in this thread, but somehow ignored.

    I don't think of it as a gift. Other members and myself have stated why having this done at such a young age is a mistake.

    And make sure you don't cut this bit out of your quote "while this is obviously not a reason to get the surgery, and should not be a factor, it is nonetheless a nice bonus."
    I kept in only what I felt was relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    Having no one show an interest in you can be very degrading and knock your confidence
    She's fourteen. She doesn't need companionship so early in her life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    It's not being shallow to say that being pretty does help boost your confidence, that's a well known fact, you rarely see someone who people would describe as gorgeous as having confidence issues.
    Celebrities all have issues, and you see it everywhere in media that popular peoples' lives tend to go down hill after high school, as that's their "prime".

    Now, does the phrase "Looks aren't everything" ever come to mind? As people age, their looks do go out the window. It's both shallow and wasteful to think that everything can be fixed with some botox.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    Body image is very powerful, and although it is wrong, our appearance does affects elsewhere in life.

    If your ugly then you're 40% less likely to be offered the job, compared to someone who has average looks, 60% less likely than someone deemed attractive. Employers can hire who they want, they discriminate between who they want, and while its a horrible shallow thing to do, it does happen, and you can't do anything about it, you can't really punish business for not hiring ugly people.
    Even attractive women get payed less than men. So, in pursuit of adapting, should people get sex changes and become handsome, white, heterosexual males? That's really the best outcome, following your apparent logic.

    It's a terrible standard, so the least we could do is fight against it, not work with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    So again, not only has she escaped the bullying, got increased confidence, she is also more likely to get a boyfriend and a job. The benefits of this are endless. It's a real dis at the bullies because through all the cruelty they dealt towards her, its backfired on them, because now she has beauty too.
    Artificial beauty. And she won't need/have use of any of those things for several years, when she may need to get surgery again to compensate for her growth. It's going to backfire on her, because she won't have beauty forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    FOR ME, the only thing that did work was changing my appearance.
    How can you say that with certainty? Surely, you've used multiple means of stopping it, but nothing that you tried worked. However, if you had attended an open school, I believe that things would have been different for you. No physical change required.

    Those schools are designed for students with issues, so discrimination simply isn't an accepted facet.
    Last edited by Mitsuru; 6th August 2012 at 04:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Free Plastic Surgery for Bullying Victims: Your Thoughts?

    Yay, Instead of supporting bullied kids to accept themselves, let's transform them to confirm looks are all in this damned life. Instead of teaching bullies to accept everybody, and punish them for their acts, let's validate their prejudices by transforming their victims to that beauty ideals.

    Suddenly I want to punch every of those organization jerks in their faces.

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  11. #41
    Fairy Queen Kaori's Avatar Forum Head
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    Default Re: Free Plastic Surgery for Bullying Victims: Your Thoughts?

    @Mitsuru;
    Thank you, seriously. Again and again you have stated my key opinions on this perfectly and I'm glad that someone else has because I am honestly beginning to wonder if Therian is listening to any of what I say.

    Bottom line, for me - you can "fix" all you want on the outside but if you don't fix the lack of self-love inside you will always have "confidence" that can be taken away from you by others' opinions - and that isn't the kind of confidence I'd want any child of mine to have. The most "gorgeous" people in the world often have a whole host of psychological issues and insecurities because they've fed so much on what other people have said about them rather than being confident regardless of their looks, not because of. Looking attractive and successful doesn't prove anything when it comes to making assumptions about the presence of internal demons others don't always see.

    Is it that hard to understand that confidence that comes from looks/being "attractive" won't do you any favours in the end? It's natural to feel disappointed or flattered depending on how much attention you do or don't get, but if you let that effect your confidence overall you will live a sad existence no matter what you look like, if you ask me. It's harsh and it's a shame, but for me it's true. I honestly can't understand what's so difficult to see about the fact that looks and attention for them don't necessarily make you happy and often don't even last. The idea that this girl will suddenly be more successful and attractive because the face she would've grown into is "fixed" alarms me - that is the idealistic (and frankly, to me, juvenile and insulting) opinion here, not the idea that true confidence can only come from loving yourself regardless and that the girl never needed surgery in the first place.



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    Default Re: Free Plastic Surgery for Bullying Victims: Your Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vhazhiphor View Post
    If I was a parent with a bullied child, and they plead with me to let them do this, I'd tell them "no". As a parent, knowing better than your kids is part of the job description. This isn't going to do a damned thing to help. Even if the bullying stops, I'm quite certain she'll come to regret her decision further on down the line.
    That's what really bothers me about this - that the parents agreed to it.

    If you look at the comments of the original article, too, there are tons of people who begged their parents for plastic surgery because they were bullied for a physical feature but the parents said "no." None of them regret this. Because changing who you are doesn't actually stop bullying and is, in fact, giving into the bullies.
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    Default Re: Free Plastic Surgery for Bullying Victims: Your Thoughts?

    The real issue here isn't the girl's appearance, it's the bullies, and the school she attends needs to put a stop to it immediately. As for the surgery, legally she's entitled to it (provided she has parental consent, which she did), but I think her parents' decision to allow the surgery was unethical. By doing so, they're only feeding unhealthy beliefs their daughter might have about herself, like she's ugly (which she wasn't, btw) and deserves to be bullied, and the like. I think the money would have been better spent on therapy alone, to build her self-confidence, as opposed to surgery.

    I'm also concerned about the long-term physical effects of this surgery. As has been pointed out, she's still growing into her features: will the cosmetic surgery deform her appearance as she ages? Will she "grow out" of her new appearance? Just a thought. I can't find anything about the effects of ageing on people with cosmetic enhancements myself, but maybe someone else can prove me wrong (or right).
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  14. #44
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    Default Re: Free Plastic Surgery for Bullying Victims: Your Thoughts?

    @Therian; we get that you personally don't find her natural appearance attractive and said you wouldn't date her before the surgery. But you're just one person whose opinion of her appearance is irrelevant to this story, and I doubt anyone in this thread really cares what does or does not turn you on anyway. Both beauty in general and sexual attractiveness in particular are very subjective qualities, and the latter often has far more to do with other qualities than personal appearance. I've certainly fallen for people in the past whom I initially found unattractive; it changed as I got to know them better and saw the personality behind their appearance.
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