DIPLOMACY: Crisis in Ukraine (Pro-Russian uprisings in Ukraine, tensions mount) - Page 2
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Thread: Crisis in Ukraine (Pro-Russian uprisings in Ukraine, tensions mount)

  1. #16
    I'm [not] a pirate Jolene's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine Protests ( Crimea Under Seige )

    Do we really need to start another Crimean War? If the Crimeans want to be ruled by Russia I say let them. It's not like they were fans of being ruled by Ukraine anyways.

    Y > X

  2. #17

    Default Re: Ukraine Protests ( Crimea Under Seige )

    Russia has taken over a military base in Crimera and it seems they are trying to provoke Ukranian forces into firing, having a fire fight erupt during this silent invasion would give Russia enough excuse to send the full brunt of it's military in which as of right now is still poised at the border.

    "The head of the Kirovske regional majlis, Ekrem Abdulvapov, said the following over the telephone: Kirovske military airfield has been captured. 16 military trucks jam-packed with soldiers entered the grounds of the airfield. The trucks were travelling with an escort of 2 or 3 hummers."

  3. #18
    Where the Shadows lie Phoenicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine Protests ( Crimea Under Seige )

    It's too easy to vilify Russia when yellow journalists write the government's lines. Ukraine is an inchoate blob of a country (where even Ukraine meaning "Borderlands" is disputed). The Cold War ended Russia's empire and not Russia, pushing the boundaries of warfare closer to Moscow on the indefensible plains of East Europe. There are no clear political boundaries because there are no clear natural ones. Germany and the Soviet Union often clashed there; now America and Russia do.

    Most wars now are proxy wars. Control of finance, machinery, minds, and guns can be just as important as who controls the land they squat on. Today it is easier to fight over these with politics (diplomats, i.e., by coercion) than with militaries. It maintains an order of sorts. Here, for example, is America's Victoria Nuland managing some pro-US Ukranian politicians. (Who elected her power over Ukranian statesmen?)

    Russia went from finance and economy to military. Putin raised the stakes. I think America will blink.
    "The inward skies of man will accompany him across any void upon which he ventures and will be with him to the end of time." -- Loren Eiseley

  4. #19
    I Always Win Lorde's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine Protests ( Crimea Under Seige )

    Russian troops have lajded in the crimea!
    Here we go...

  5. #20

    Default Re: Ukraine Protests ( Crimea Under Seige )

    As of 20 Minutes ago, the Russian Parliament has given permission for official Russian Troops to enter Ukraine, from what I hear the permission extends to all of Ukraine and not just the Crimea, meaning Putin can take the whole country if he wishes.

    Now the question is if the Budapest Memorandum signed by Bill Clinton, John Major, Boris Yeltsin and Leonid Kuchma in 1994, now places the United States and Great Britain directly at war with Russia.

    Edit: Should be noted that Turkey also has a interest in this now.

    In an article in last week’s Russian Pravda, it was noted that if Ukraine was divided, then the status of the Crimean Peninsula – returned to Ukraine in 1954 by Nikita Kruschev, would be open to discussion, and that would include Turkey having a say in the future of Crimea.

    The reference to this claim is the “Küçük Kaynarca” (Karlowitz I) signed 230 years ago. As per this agreement, signed by the Russian Tsarina Catherine II on April 19, 1783, the Crimean Peninsula was taken away from the dominion of the Ottomans and handed over to Russia. However, one of the most important provisions of this treaty was the debarment of independence for the Peninsula and outlawing its submission to a third party: Should any such attempt be made, then Crimea would automatically have to be returned to the sovereignty of Turkey.

    When Ukraine appeared as an independent nation following the disintegration of the USSR in 1991, Turkey acquired the right to claim the Peninsula back based on the Treaty of Küçük Kaynarca; however, this was not brought up by the Turgut Ozal administration of the time. Turkey was content with advocating for the rights of the Tatar minority living on the Crimean Peninsula.
    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/views/news/world/2014/03/01/Turkey-caught-in-the-Russia-Crimea-snowstorm.html
    Last edited by Big Lutz; 1st March 2014 at 10:20 AM.

  6. #21
    Where the Shadows lie Phoenicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine Protests ( Russia Officially Invades, U.S/Britain at War? )

    History is endlessly fascinating. But a theme of all these old treaties is that they only exist in our minds. If no one fights for Ukraine, the Budapest Memorandum and Karlowitz I are only papers after all.

  7. #22
    I'm [not] a pirate Jolene's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine Protests ( Russia Officially Invades, U.S/Britain at War? )

    If Russia wants to take over Ukraine I say let them. No need to start World War III over a relatively unimportant country.

    If World War III does start, it will be exactly 100 years after World War I, another easily avoided senseless war.

    Y > X

  8. #23
    Gallifrey Stands Jabberwocky's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Ukraine Protests ( Russia Officially Invades, U.S/Britain at War? )

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolene View Post
    If Russia wants to take over Ukraine I say let them. No need to start World War III over a relatively unimportant country.
    That's a rather dangerous line of thinking, I'd say, since it excuses imperialist depredations toward smaller or weaker countries on the part of larger or stronger countries - and as history has repeatedly shown, that sort of thing just doesn't end well.

    No one wants, WWIII, but at the same time no country should be able to just take whatever land they want without repercussions. I'm certain that most Ukrainians do not at all want to be part of Russia again, considering that much of the nation's history has been defined by its struggles for independence from Russia.

  9. #24
    I'm [not] a pirate Jolene's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine Protests ( Russia Officially Invades, U.S/Britain at War? )

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolene View Post
    If Russia wants to take over Ukraine I say let them. No need to start World War III over a relatively unimportant country.
    That's a rather dangerous line of thinking, I'd say, since it excuses imperialist depredations toward smaller or weaker countries on the part of larger or stronger countries - and as history has repeatedly shown, that sort of thing just doesn't end well.

    No one wants, WWIII, but at the same time no country should be able to just take whatever land they want without repercussions. I'm certain that most Ukrainians do not at all want to be part of Russia again, considering that much of the nation's history has been defined by its struggles for independence from Russia.
    We have two choices. Sit back and watch or get involved. Neither option is good, but sit back and watch results in less casualties.

    Y > X

  10. #25
    Gallifrey Stands Jabberwocky's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Ukraine Protests ( Russia Officially Invades, U.S/Britain at War? )

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolene View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolene View Post
    If Russia wants to take over Ukraine I say let them. No need to start World War III over a relatively unimportant country.
    That's a rather dangerous line of thinking, I'd say, since it excuses imperialist depredations toward smaller or weaker countries on the part of larger or stronger countries - and as history has repeatedly shown, that sort of thing just doesn't end well.

    No one wants, WWIII, but at the same time no country should be able to just take whatever land they want without repercussions. I'm certain that most Ukrainians do not at all want to be part of Russia again, considering that much of the nation's history has been defined by its struggles for independence from Russia.
    We have two choices. Sit back and watch or get involved. Neither option is good, but sit back and watch results in less casualties.
    Not necessarily so, depending on how the conflict will escalate. Further, simply allowing Russia to annex even part of Ukraine would be allowing a flagrant violation of the Budapest Memorandum. Such neo-imperialism cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.

    That's not to say I think there should be war, quite the opposite. A diplomatic solution must be worked up immediately. The last thing I want is a sequel to Georgia 2008.

  11. #26
    I'm [not] a pirate Jolene's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine Protests ( Russia Officially Invades, U.S/Britain at War? )

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolene View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolene View Post
    If Russia wants to take over Ukraine I say let them. No need to start World War III over a relatively unimportant country.
    That's a rather dangerous line of thinking, I'd say, since it excuses imperialist depredations toward smaller or weaker countries on the part of larger or stronger countries - and as history has repeatedly shown, that sort of thing just doesn't end well.

    No one wants, WWIII, but at the same time no country should be able to just take whatever land they want without repercussions. I'm certain that most Ukrainians do not at all want to be part of Russia again, considering that much of the nation's history has been defined by its struggles for independence from Russia.
    We have two choices. Sit back and watch or get involved. Neither option is good, but sit back and watch results in less casualties.
    Not necessarily so, depending on how the conflict will escalate. Further, simply allowing Russia to annex even part of Ukraine would be allowing a flagrant violation of the Budapest Memorandum. Such neo-imperialism cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.

    That's not to say I think there should be war, quite the opposite. A diplomatic solution must be worked up immediately. The last thing I want is a sequel to Georgia 2008.
    I doubt diplomacy will work with a guy like Putin. Why doesn't Ukraine just peacefully give up Crimea? Why are they keeping it for?

    Y > X

  12. #27

    Default Re: Ukraine Protests ( Russia Officially Invades, U.S/Britain at War? )

    The security council meeting is now closed here are Russa's reasons for invasion


    The EU, the UK, and the US incited the protests and fueled the revolt.

    Yanukovych signed a deal with the opposition politicians that would keep him in power until, at least, early elections in December.

    The “armed militants” broke this agreement by taking over government buildings, therefore: Yanukovych is the legitimate leader of Ukraine and the people in charge are radicals,

    “Kiev,” the catchphrase for these radicals who are now running the country, is sending provocateurs to takeover government buildings in Crimea

    Therefore:
    The government of Crimea has asked Russia to send troops to restore order, and Russia has done so unilaterally because the West helped conspire to remove a democratically-elected government and put these radicals in charge.

    The bottom line: the international community needs to help remove the radicals and enforce the February 21st agreement (which, by the way, would require reinstating Yanukovych back as President).

    If this is not done, Russian troops will defend Crimea, and possibly attack Kiev to make it happen.






    Also worth noting is the Right Sector in Ukraine has asked for help from the Chechan terrorist groups to help repel the invasion.

  13. #28
    I'm [not] a pirate Jolene's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine Protests ( Russia Officially Invades, U.S/Britain at War? )

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Lutz View Post
    The security council meeting is now closed here are Russa's reasons for invasion


    The EU, the UK, and the US incited the protests and fueled the revolt.

    Yanukovych signed a deal with the opposition politicians that would keep him in power until, at least, early elections in December.

    The “armed militants” broke this agreement by taking over government buildings, therefore: Yanukovych is the legitimate leader of Ukraine and the people in charge are radicals,

    “Kiev,” the catchphrase for these radicals who are now running the country, is sending provocateurs to takeover government buildings in Crimea

    Therefore:
    The government of Crimea has asked Russia to send troops to restore order, and Russia has done so unilaterally because the West helped conspire to remove a democratically-elected government and put these radicals in charge.

    The bottom line: the international community needs to help remove the radicals and enforce the February 21st agreement (which, by the way, would require reinstating Yanukovych back as President).

    If this is not done, Russian troops will defend Crimea, and possibly attack Kiev to make it happen.






    Also worth noting is the Right Sector in Ukraine has asked for help from the Chechan terrorist groups to help repel the invasion.
    Russia has a point. Yanukovych was democratically elected and as I said before, in a democracy, you suck it up until the next elections give you a change to change your leaders. On the other hand, Russia could be just spinning the situation to make the West look bad.

    I still say let them invade for the avoidance of worldwide conflict.

    Y > X

  14. #29

    Default Re: Ukraine Protests ( Russia Officially Invades, U.S/Britain at War? )

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolene View Post
    Russia has a point. Yanukovych was democratically elected and as I said before, in a democracy, you suck it up until the next elections give you a change to change your leaders. On the other hand, Russia could be just spinning the situation to make the West look bad.

    I still say let them invade for the avoidance of worldwide conflict.
    That depends, was he "democratically elected" like Putin was?
    That's nice.

  15. #30
    Gallifrey Stands Jabberwocky's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Ukraine Protests ( Russia Officially Invades, U.S/Britain at War? )

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMissingno. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolene View Post
    Russia has a point. Yanukovych was democratically elected and as I said before, in a democracy, you suck it up until the next elections give you a change to change your leaders. On the other hand, Russia could be just spinning the situation to make the West look bad.

    I still say let them invade for the avoidance of worldwide conflict.
    That depends, was he "democratically elected" like Putin was?
    Inconclusive, but very, very likely. From what I've read, only around 5% of Ukrainians expected a fair election back in 2010.

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