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    Default Re: Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court rules him sane

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    Simply Google "Anders Breivik Conjugal visits" for a whole range of articles, many referencing the fact that you pointed out it's illegal and yet they are still doing it because his rights overide the law on that regard.
    Where the fuck does it say that anyways? I googled that exact phrase, and searched after "conjugal" and even "prostitute" on the top articles, and I've come to the conclusion that you're making things up here. Again, check your sources, and post a direct link to where it says that he'll get that, because I'm Norwegian, and I haven't heard one word of him or any other getting that, ever.


    Besides, they are not going to put what is probably the single most high risk prisoner in Norway on Bastøy any time soon. Not even the new Halden prison, which is probably also cited for being so nice.

    Norway is a real mystery to me. Looking at the Prison where he's staying I honestly wouldn't mind living there, it's nicer than my house at the moment. With living conditions like that I'm surprised more Norwegians don't turn to crime.
    No Norwegian I know (and that's a fucking lot) would ever want that, trust me. People don't want to go to jail, strangely enough...
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    Default Re: Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court rules him sane

    This maniac's place is lifetime prison. Period. Ending tens of peoples' lives should be more than enough reason for that. I don't know how the actual Norwegian laws work though in this respect. But this guy is a monster. Imagine you would be friends of those that he killed. And think about those that were friends of his victims.

    There's simply no excuse.
    Last edited by ivantuga2; 27th August 2012 at 08:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court rules him sane

    I respect his sentance for the reason that is is the maximum Norway can give. Although maybe they should change it they still gave him the MAXIMUM. For the scepticles, if he is still found a danger to the public after the 21 years, he can be kept detained so its not that bad.

    I am glad he got found sane, but looking more into it, even if he was found insane justice would be given because the mental unit he was going to is basically a jail in which is secure and he is kept an eye on more. It would also be more of a life sentance.

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    Default Re: Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court rules him sane

    Indeed, I'm glad he was found sane. As you say if he was insane then he would be locked away for ever and I think that would be a bit harsh. NOT!

    The maximum is 21 (although it can be extended so not really a maximum) and the minimum is 10. I think he will probably be nearer the lower end of the scale than the higher end.
    Last edited by Therian; 27th August 2012 at 02:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court rules him sane

    Imagine you would be friends of those that he killed. And think about those that were friends of his victims.
    While I didn't personally know anyone that was there (I had talked a few words perhaps to one girl that survived, but that's about it), I have a friend that was supposed to have been there. What can I say, we're a small country.

    I think he will probably be nearer the lower end of the scale than the higher end.
    This is a man, who's ideology and general tendency to violence is very unlikely to diminish in 10 years. If anything, the trial and the way he behaved in it makes that reasonably clear. This is a man that will probably, for as long as he lives, be judged as a national security threat, and the legal system will act accordingly. This is a man who coldly and in pretty clear detail described how he was going to execute several known persons (by decapitations for instance).

    This is a man who will spend a long time in prison. I, and quite a few others, would be highly surprised if he spent less than 20 years in prison.

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    Default Re: Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court rules him sane

    He's already been granted a computer, and a 3 part book deal, and is enrolling on a course of Political Science. The Norwegian justice system doesn't seem to give a fuck about any actual punishment or deterrent.

    10 years from now, there will be a major scandal as he's let out early because Norway is too lenient.
    Last edited by Therian; 27th August 2012 at 02:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court rules him sane

    The Norwegian justice system doesn't seem to give a fuck about any actual punishment or deterrent.
    I don't think so.

    I think the norwegian system start from the assumption that while some people may be irredeemable, it's better to assume that everyone can be redeemed, and give them the tools to redeem themselves - even if you end up keeping them in jail because they don't.

    Yes, in this specific case, everyone and their mother likely agree that he will never redeem himself. But the law should not use extreme cases of rotten people as the baseline on which the treatment of all people is based.

    In the vast, vast, vast majority of cases, giving the person the tool to be a productive member of society is more important in the long term than any punishment. (Besides which, being locked up and unable to go anywhere else is a pretty big punishment to begin).

    I do have a problem with book deals for murderers, and I think these should be restricted immensely. Or possibly a law that "Any book, film or other deal by a murderer concerning the events of their murder, or their motivation or ideology supporting the murder, will be taxed at 100% of its value, with the resulting taxes to be redistributed among the victims, or charities." Or something to that effect.
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    Default Re: Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court rules him sane

    I couldn't find anything on a book deal. I just read that he's writing a book.

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    Default Re: Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court rules him sane

    I can't find anything on a book deal either. Literally the first google result that mentions Anders and any "book deal" is this topic. Everything else before that is articles about him with passing mentions to him wanting to write three books. Where's the source on this?

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    Default Re: Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court rules him sane

    On wiki it says he is writing 3 books and aims to release the first one next year. How can the Norwegian system let him write books about what he did???

    Rehabilitation is important yes we're all agreed there, but Norway really lacks a strong deterrent. He clearly didn't want to die, that's why he surrendered as soon as the police arrived. He wanted to be sent to jail and not a psychiatric ward so that he could call himself a political prisoner. Clearly he didn't fear prison or the Norwegian justice system. If the death penalty had been an option I think it would have made him more hesitant, and even if he still went through with it it would discourage other copycat attacks. The Norwegian justice system appears to work because Norwegians are such nice people, and peaceful. But when you do go get criminals, there's nothing really to deter them.

    So far the only deterrent I see, is don't do such an extreme crime and then you can go to that island of inmates.

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    Default Re: Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court rules him sane

    On wiki it says he is writing 3 books and aims to release the first one next year. How can the Norwegian system let him write books about what he did???
    Writing three books and publishing three books are two completely separate matters. How many publishers would be willing to publish it, you think? Or sell it?

    So far the only deterrent I see, is don't do such an extreme crime and then you can go to that island of inmates.
    Do you have any idea whatsoever of what you're talking about? You know how getting locked away from the rest of society works as a deterrent, right?

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    Default Re: Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court rules him sane

    Quote Originally Posted by H-con View Post
    On wiki it says he is writing 3 books and aims to release the first one next year. How can the Norwegian system let him write books about what he did???
    Writing three books and publishing three books are two completely separate matters. How many publishers would be willing to publish it, you think? Or sell it?
    Come off it, you know when he's finished at least one publisher will publish it, probably not a big one, but greed will take over. I'm sure theres a publisher somewhere who would publish it, and in the days of the internet, you dont need a seller you can order it direct.

    So far the only deterrent I see, is don't do such an extreme crime and then you can go to that island of inmates.
    Do you have any idea whatsoever of what you're talking about? You know how getting locked away from the rest of society works as a deterrent, right?
    He's only in isolation for part of his sentence, before he can integrate with other inmates. He was a recluse beforehand just locked in his room, do you really think he cares about being locked away in an even nicer surroudings. Also as long as he can get fan mail he won't feel lonely, he'll feel vindicated. Also I assume when he goes on his course it won't be 1 to 1 tuition.

    There's no deterrent whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court rules him sane

    Come off it, you know when he's finished at least one publisher will publish it, probably not a big one, but greed will take over. I'm sure theres a publisher somewhere who would publish it, and in the days of the internet, you dont need a seller you can order it direct.
    And? Come back when he actually have written his damn books and have actually published it, as of now there is nothing indicating he'll ever do it.

    There's no deterrent whatsoever.
    Bullshit. People don't want to go to jail. People don't want to be removed from society for a long time. Also, the prospect of spending his life in prison should also be an obvious deterrent. Also, you seem to fail to grasp what I mean with society. The freedom to run your own life, instead of being locked up with other criminals in a confined space for an extended period of time. You can say it's as nice as you wish, but that is the penalty, and fan mail and classes won't change that.

    Though come to think of it, him getting that kind of mail is a pretty sad concept.

    It's annoying when you make completely baseless claims based on nothing at all (that he'll just sit 10 years in prison, there's no deterrent in our penalty system) and posting things that simply aren't true (book deal, prostitutes).

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    Default Re: Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court rules him sane

    Quote Originally Posted by H-con View Post
    Come off it, you know when he's finished at least one publisher will publish it, probably not a big one, but greed will take over. I'm sure theres a publisher somewhere who would publish it, and in the days of the internet, you dont need a seller you can order it direct.
    And? Come back when he actually have written his damn books and have actually published it, as of now there is nothing indicating he'll ever do it.
    Wrong. There's a lot indicating he will. He is writing the books, there is obviously demand for those books as likely the thousands writing to him would buy them, and there's probably sickos out there not writing fanmail but would still buy the book. A greedy publisher will seize that demand and publish to sell it.

    There's no deterrent whatsoever.
    Bullshit. People don't want to go to jail. People don't want to be removed from society for a long time. Also, the prospect of spending his life in prison should also be an obvious deterrent. Also, you seem to fail to grasp what I mean with society. The freedom to run your own life, instead of being locked up with other criminals in a confined space for an extended period of time. You can say it's as nice as you wish, but that is the penalty, and fan mail and classes won't change that.
    Wrong. Not everyone is a socialite. The guy already spent a couple of years just locked in his room, do you really think he cares about being able to roam free across the land?

    Though come to think of it, him getting that kind of mail is a pretty sad concept.
    Finally the veil of naivety is lifting. Breivik is not a one off. There are tons of sickos out there, apparently, thousands. Thousands of sympathizers. And you need to do something to deter them from carrying out copycat attacks. 10 years (maybe 21, maybe more) years in a luxury prison away from non criminal society, don't cut it. Because they just replace outside society with prison society. You have an island prison community for fuck sake. Now I know you say its unlikely Breivik will go there, but come on, living on an island with other people is not a punishment or removed from society, people do it all the time.

    It's annoying when you make completely baseless claims based on nothing at all (that he'll just sit 10 years in prison,
    Wrong. The judge has set the maximum to 21 years (although it can be extended) but set the minimum at only 10. Why not just put it at 21? Instead of giving him a legal right to demand another hearing in 10 years time in which he could easily fake rehabilitation and be released.

    there's no deterrent in our penalty system)
    Correct. So far all you have is a luxury prison and the fact that he will live in a prison community instead of wider society.

    and posting things that simply aren't true (book deal, prostitutes).
    Ok I was wrong about the book deal. I read that he was writing 3 books, and assumed he'd been made an offer, ok the offer hasn't come in yet, but it will come in. Norway has also granted him conjugal rights.

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    Default Re: Anders Behring Breivik: Norway court rules him sane

    Quote Originally Posted by Therian View Post
    Wrong. There's a lot indicating he will. He is writing the books, there is obviously demand for those books as likely the thousands writing to him would buy them, and there's probably sickos out there not writing fanmail but would still buy the book. A greedy publisher will seize that demand and publish to sell it.
    Bullshit. You have no ground to make that claim, especially when he's not written the book(s) yet. I'll give you that he isn't alone about his thoughts, but I'm highly skeptical to the notion that a publisher would earn money from a book like this to begin with. It's not like it'll print money.

    Wrong. Not everyone is a socialite. The guy already spent a couple of years just locked in his room, do you really think he cares about being able to roam free across the land?
    Yes, because he obviously didn't do anything outside the house. You fail to see my point. It's being locked away, in a place you didn't choose, with people you didn't choose, for a time you didn't choose, doing things you don't have the full freedom to choose. That is the deterrent. I guess even he liked to have the option of doing things when he wanted to do so, though I would agree he wasn't the prime example of someone being very social.

    Finally the veil of naivety is lifting. Breivik is not a one off. There are tons of sickos out there, apparently, thousands. Thousands of sympathizers. And you need to do something to deter them from carrying out copycat attacks. 10 years (maybe 21, maybe more) years in a luxury prison away from non criminal society, don't cut it. Because they just replace outside society with prison society. You have an island prison community for fuck sake. Now I know you say its unlikely Breivik will go there, but come on, living on an island with other people is not a punishment or removed from society, people do it all the time.

    Oh, there's enough of people hiding behind being anonymous on the internet. Quite ironically, this have made some things safer, since it seems to be harder to truly mobilize behind such a barrier. But prison in any case wouldn't really deter these people to begin with, they act on their ideology, I don't really believe they think of how they'll serve in prison afterwards.

    I highly doubt they'll put what is probably the single most hight risk prisoner in Norway after the war on an island that it's easy to get away from. Only a select few get there, and I very much doubt Breivik will be considered safe enough to be transferred there (not only that, but he could very easily be in contact with other people, something I doubt the prison staff would like at all).

    Wrong. The judge has set the maximum to 21 years (although it can be extended) but set the minimum at only 10. Why not just put it at 21? Instead of giving him a legal right to demand another hearing in 10 years time in which he could easily fake rehabilitation and be released.
    I don't fancy making special loopholes for single cases. The law applies to all, we have to deal with that. Changing the law because of one single event is not a very wise procedure.

    Also, why do you say ten years (oh, I know, it's the minimum sentence) when it's clear that he'll spend far longer than that in prison. You have absolutely no ground to make that assertion, whereas the notion that his penalty will be higher is pretty well substantiated by not only his crime, but his general line of thought (which I doubt will change in prison), his ability to act after those ideas and his very aggressive nature (how he, in detail, described how he was going to kill people for instance). There is little reason to think that this will substantially change in a matter of 10 years, especially of how he wanted to be judged sane.

    Also, fake rehabilitation? Trying real hard to come up with reasons?

    Correct. So far all you have is a luxury prison and the fact that he will live in a prison community instead of wider society.
    A prison community? So just because he isn't in isolation, he'll be integrated into some community in the prison? I find that a bit naive to be honest.

    But even then, think of it this way. Is the society better or worse if a man like that is barred away? You seem to be thinking that the only way society gains from this is that if he's punished severely, but in fact, it's better just by having a very dangerous individual behind bars, incapable of commit further crimes.

    Ok I was wrong about the book deal. I read that he was writing 3 books, and assumed he'd been made an offer, ok the offer hasn't come in yet, but it will come in. Norway has also granted him conjugal rights.

    Okay, here's the problem. First off, you seem to think you have intimate knowledge of how Norwegians think

    10 years from now, there will be a major scandal as he's let out early because Norway is too lenient.
    but Norway really lacks a strong deterrent.
    So far the only deterrent I see, is don't do such an extreme crime and then you can go to that island of inmates.
    Norway is a real mystery to me. Looking at the Prison where he's staying I honestly wouldn't mind living there, it's nicer than my house at the moment. With living conditions like that I'm surprised more Norwegians don't turn to crime.
    Especially the last one really baffles me, and shows your lack of understanding.
    Now, the logic of some of my fellow citizens baffle me at times as well, but as far as I know, the very core deterrent in the Norwegian penalty system is jail itself. There's always people who complain about how "good" prison standards are here (though I doubt they would complain about the general rate of recidivism from said prisons, notably Bastøy as an example), but the notion of being locked up and being confined is a very strong deterrent in itself, that very few individuals want. Of course, this is ignoring the fact that very few of our prisons are that luxurious, and certainly not the jail he'll be sitting in for the next years, it's a hyperbole driven by the media for the most part. Now, if you add that to the idea of it possibly ruining quite a few years of your life and possibly your future as well and you have the reason why people don't want to go to jail, even though I could probably find a prison cell that is "better" than my current place to live. Ignoring that, I don't think he would have acted any differently (or anyone else doing the same thing, for that matter), because for him, it's not about the penalty. As you said yourself, he wanted to get arrested, and he wanted to get known. With his destructive ideology, I doubt even the idea of life in prison (as a sentence) would have stopped him.

    Now that's just mildly annoying, what's more is that you post statements without any form for evidence or source For instance, the conjugal visit thing, I googled that like you said (and quite obviously you didn't do), and there is no word of it. I even googled him + prostitutes, nada. I read Norwegian papers all the time, nothing. Nothing on TV either, at least that I've picked up. So when you don't even list a source for that (and still insist on that he has rights to conjugal visits), then I suggest you provide some evidence. It doesn't exactly help that you say that he has a non-existing book deal and use very weak arguments based supposedly off "greed" to prove your baseless claim that he will get a book deal. While I have no doubt he'll write this his hand gets numb, that doesn't equate publishing.

    In any case, you're free to believe whatever you want about Norway and it's justice system, but I would advice you not to post like you're an expert on the subject, seeing how you really need to understand the culture to understand why we have the system we have today. I have better things to do than to try and correct your misinformation you post over and over.
    Last edited by H-con; 29th August 2012 at 04:53 AM.

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