16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious - Page 3
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  1. #31
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikini Miltank View Post
    So let me get this straight.
    You think that dressing/acting a particular way doesn't make it the victim's fault.
    But if the victim dressed/acted that way, you won't feel sorry for them, even though you think it wasn't their fault.

    Then why don't you feel sorry for them? Does dressing a certain way mean that they deserved what happened to them?
    Let me rephrase, if they ware raped or tortured, then I have sympathy. This person, I have sympathy for.

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  2. #32

    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruhi. View Post
    Let me rephrase, if they ware raped or tortured, then I have sympathy. This person, I have sympathy for.
    But that sympathy doesn't extend to harassment... you should really rethink that view. In reality dressing conservatively doesn't protect anyone from harassment.

    Quote Originally Posted by LadySasaki View Post
    But unfortunately we live in the real world where, all gender issues aside, crime is a thing that happens. There are nasty people out there; not just rapists, but muggers, pedophiles and murderers. Don't make it easier for them by not protecting yourself wherever possible. If you want to go out and get absolutely obliterated, ensure that someone trustworthy knows where you're going and that you'll be able to get a ride home. I know common sense will, tragically, only take us so far - you can take all the precautions in the world and still be attacked in the street. But the least we can do is encourage our children, our friends, and ourselves, to be a little more safe in their actions.

    Of course what I've just said does not apply even in the slightest to Jenny Trout's situation described in her post, or this poor girl's in the news story; it goes without saying that if you're being plied with alcohol or drugs in a comfortable situation with people you believe you can trust - like an adult family friend or your circle of peers - then the blame goes to the perpetrator who was not only disgusting enough to violate you, but diabolical enough to manipulate you into a false sense of security first, which of course implies that they knew EXACTLY what they were doing.
    The problem here is that most rape survivors know their rapists. Protecting yourself entails assuming that everyone you know is a potential predator. This is one of the reasons why most advice about how to protect oneself against sexual assault isn't useful.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    I won't delve too far into the conversation, but I do agree with Figgy.

    Is rape ever excusable? No, rape is never excusable. But I do feel for all of the victims: the girl who was raped, her relatives, and even the young men found guilty of rape. They are, if even indirectly, victims of their own wrong-doings and misjudgment. I'm apathetic for them all. The young woman for more obvious reasons, and the young men for wasted potential. Were their actions morally and legally wrong? Absolutely. But do not pretend that they're some evil, heartless beings who deserve all of the hate they're getting. I'm not excusing their behaviour - as they deserve the consequences in place for their actions - but let's look at both sides of the coin.

    I also think that although rape happens every day without the integration of narcotics, the abuse of alcohol in this scenario is also to blame. Was alcohol the sole determinant? No, of course not, and it never is. But it needs to be considered nonetheless. 16 year-olds should not have possession of alcohol and other narcotics; the parents should also be held responsible.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinobu View Post
    Protecting yourself entails assuming that everyone you know is a potential predator. This is one of the reasons why most advice about how to protect oneself against sexual assault isn't useful.
    But no, it doesn't. It's this kind of faulty thinking that a) causes paranoia to the point where women start believing that all men are scary rapists and b) enables some of the more militant feminists (and nobody get on my case about calling feminists 'feminazis' because I'm a feminist, I just believe a small group take it too far) to shriek 'how dare you victim blame!' when all a lot of people are doing is offering some common sense.

    There are two different situations here: one is sexual assault from somebody you know, in which case no, as I stated in my post, you can't really take preventative measures to protect from that (depending on the context, of course) because you're probably not expecting it from someone you know and trust.

    The other situation is sexual assault from a stranger, which you have a betterchance of preventing (again depending very heavily on context, but it is applicable in the example I gave) if you simply follow some basic laws of common sense which apply to any human being - not just female - who doesn't want to end up dead in a gutter after a night out. I am not saying that you can prevent all cases of assault in any of its forms (of course you can't) and I would never say it is the victim's fault that it happened, but I am saying that maybe calling a sober friend for a ride home rather than staggering down a back alley, telling someone where you're going if you're going out alone, or perhaps carrying some pepper spray in your bag if you know you're going to be headed through a bad area, is a better idea than not taking these precautions, and might actually save your life one day.

    It's a common sense issue, not a gender issue or even a rape issue.

    @ Haruhi, the fact that your sympathy for an attack victim seems to depend on the extremity of what happened to them frankly scares me a little. Nobody deserves any kind of abuse simply because of how they dress. Sure, I'd personally find it a little undignified to go around with your boobs on display or a skirt so short that everyone can see your panties, but if you wish to do it's your prerogative, and you don't deserve to be shunned for it. Don't forget that what's considered 'slutty' or (and I'm only using this as an example) 'asking to get raped' (ugh, it's horrible to even type) is very, very subjective depending on where you live, your upbringing and culture. My father is foreign, my mother English. I've lived in England all my life and so have grown up wearing makeup, pierced ears and short skirts, but if I went to my father's country dressed this way it would be considered very inappropriate. According to your way of thinking, someone could sexually assault me in that country because according to their culture I'm 'asking for it' and I wouldn't be deserving of sympathy...unless I was raped or tortured :(

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  5. #35

    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    I think the whole "deserving it" issue gets a bit complicated because we're using the word "rape".

    Before I continue, I'd like to make clear that I don't think the following applies in this case. Even though I don't know many of the details, from what I've read she was at a party with some friends. Maybe had a bit much to drink. It happens. But if she was drugged, there's really no blaming her for anything. You don't really go into a party like that expecting such a possibility. [Edit: To clarify, you don't expect to go to a party with your school friends to be drugged and sexually abused. I'm not saying she would have "deserved" it if she wasn't drugged - the most she "deserved" was waking up with a bad headache. "If" was probably not the best word to use in that sentence.]

    Throwing my two cents in, it's not so much about deserving to get raped because of how you dress or act, and even using the word "deserving" feels off. It's about doing something stupid. When you do something stupid, bad things follow. If you go to a bad part of town wearing an expensive watch and large gold ring, you don't deserve to get mugged, but what do you think is going to happen? If you tell some strange person online where you live... well, okay, that one works out sometimes. But you're still taking a (hopefully, calculated) risk.

    Of course no one deserves to have bad things happen to them, but they happen anyway. And if you put yourself in a position where they can happen, or happen more easily, when avoiding that could be as simple as not wearing your jewelery today, or putting on a sweater, asking a friend to come along with you, or maybe walking down a different street... Like, in the town where I used to live, people don't really hang out at night anymore. A couple of years ago, the kids would usually head over to a local park or the one night club in the place when it was dark. And they should be able to go and hang out at the night club if they want to, but there's the very real risk of being kidnapped or caught in the crossfire of a gunfight. So most people try to avoid that nowadays.

    I realize it's not a perfect analogy, what with the much more personal and invasive nature of a rape. But really, saying "I'm going to go dress in the skimpiest clothes I have and get very very drunk while surrounded by strangers and nothing bad could possibly come of that" is at the very least an incredibly naive thing to say. Actually, skimpy clothes aren't even needed. The rest of that sentence is still a dubiously good idea, no matter your gender. One should balance their freedoms against the expectation that bad things happen. It may not be idealistic, and it may not be nice, but it's the way things are. And until we can get things to change, if that's even possible, there's certain things that really are just common sense.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Sasaki, I'm sorry :[

    My opinion pretty much has alot to do with my upbringing (and a tiny fraction is cultural related). I've been taught that what I wear or do can either send a right or wrong message. Like I saw a segment on TV and it was an experiment. They had a waitress dress in her uniform (which was conservative BTW) and her boss was sexuality harassing her (touching her in wrong places mostly) and people stood up for her. But when they switched it and she wore this tight fitting red dress (it had sleeves but it was tight enough that you could see that she had a butt and all her curves were there) and tried the same scenero again, this time.... people were less inclined to stand up for this girl. Why? Because they felt that she was "asking for it" which in my honest opinion, I agree with them.

    I'm not trying to say that you deserved to have anything happen to you whether it be harassment or whatnot, I am saying that what someone wears or what someone does can send the wrong message. If someone touches you wrong like in the scenero, I am not sure how I'd feel because I've been brought up with conservative ideals on the topic. :[

    My name is Misaaki. アテは、岩根雅明の#1ファン、Please

  7. #37

    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruhi. View Post
    Sasaki, I'm sorry :[

    My opinion pretty much has alot to do with my upbringing (and a tiny fraction is cultural related). I've been taught that what I wear or do can either send a right or wrong message. Like I saw a segment on TV and it was an experiment. They had a waitress dress in her uniform (which was conservative BTW) and her boss was sexuality harassing her (touching her in wrong places mostly) and people stood up for her. But when they switched it and she wore this tight fitting red dress (it had sleeves but it was tight enough that you could see that she had a butt and all her curves were there) and tried the same scenero again, this time.... people were less inclined to stand up for this girl. Why? Because they felt that she was "asking for it" which in my honest opinion, I agree with them.

    I'm not trying to say that you deserved to have anything happen to you whether it be harassment or whatnot, I am saying that what someone wears or what someone does can send the wrong message. If someone touches you wrong like in the scenero, I am not sure how I'd feel because I've been brought up with conservative ideals on the topic. :[
    Well, your signature is very telling as to how you think of women. I think you're classless for some of the things you said on here.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Ugh, I do NOT have even 0.00000001% symphathy for the guys, in fact, they didn't get punished enough (this is RAPE we're talking about).

    As for clothes, it doesn't matter what one wears, rape can still happen to them.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    *sigh*

    I didn't say anyone deserved to be raped. And my signature has nothing to do with the subject.

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  10. #40
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruhi. View Post
    *sigh*

    I didn't say anyone deserved to be raped. And my signature has nothing to do with the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruhi. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikini Miltank View Post
    The reason that this advice gets labeled as victim-blaming is because it essentially is. That doesn't mean that it isn't sometimes still good advice, but it says something pretty terrible about society when the best we can do to prevent rape is to advise women to make themselves less tempting targets.
    Don't know if I'll be hated for this one, but I kinda beg to differ. I mean, when a woman wears something revealing and gets unwanted attention... then I am not really going to feel bad for them. Because as kids, we had it beaten in our heads (well, the ones who were raised conservative much like myself) that what we wear can either send a right or wrong message. Wearing something revealing and (and or add that with being drunk) can send the wrong message. Which is why men in prison alot of times refrain from having their pants down to their butts.

    I'm not saying it's the victim's fault because rape is a horrible crime. I'm really not. But I have my opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruhi. View Post
    Sasaki, I'm sorry :[

    My opinion pretty much has alot to do with my upbringing (and a tiny fraction is cultural related). I've been taught that what I wear or do can either send a right or wrong message. Like I saw a segment on TV and it was an experiment. They had a waitress dress in her uniform (which was conservative BTW) and her boss was sexuality harassing her (touching her in wrong places mostly) and people stood up for her. But when they switched it and she wore this tight fitting red dress (it had sleeves but it was tight enough that you could see that she had a butt and all her curves were there) and tried the same scenero again, this time.... people were less inclined to stand up for this girl. Why? Because they felt that she was "asking for it" which in my honest opinion, I agree with them.

    I'm not trying to say that you deserved to have anything happen to you whether it be harassment or whatnot, I am saying that what someone wears or what someone does can send the wrong message. If someone touches you wrong like in the scenero, I am not sure how I'd feel because I've been brought up with conservative ideals on the topic. :[
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  11. #41

    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruhi. View Post
    *sigh*

    I didn't say anyone deserved to be raped. And my signature has nothing to do with the subject.
    You could sigh all you want. The evidence is right in front of your face.

    Maybe you're signature doesn't have to do with the subject but it is still a creepy signature for you to have :/

  12. #42
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Quote Originally Posted by Pokemaniac24 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Haruhi. View Post
    *sigh*

    I didn't say anyone deserved to be raped. And my signature has nothing to do with the subject.
    You could sigh all you want. The evidence is right in front of your face.

    Maybe you're signature doesn't have to do with the subject but it is still a creepy signature for you to have :/
    I don't see a problem with a girl having a sig with breasts. Have you ever thought that perhaps she likes breasts? I know that it can be a foreign concept to some people in this world, but some girls really do like breasts. Also, even if she doesn't, I think that a girl should be allowed to have breasts in their sig without being harassed about it.

    Oh, yes, I'm an admin, and this is a warning. Stop the harassment, whether it be via PM, VM, or in threads.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Haruhi's a guy though.

    When a guy comes into a thread about a delicate subject like rape, has a signature with boobs that aren't actually part of a real woman but an animated woman made specifically to appeal to the male gaze, and then blames the victim because she dressed provocatively and thus she somehow deserved the unwanted attention, while mentioning how they were raised in a conservative environment that spoke out against that, it definitely sends the wrong message to people.
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    I didn't think I blamed the victim. My post about provocative dressing was on another subject. But then that's typically a male only opinion. ;p

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  15. #45
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    It's actually not, though.

    In fact it's rather common to see other women say the exact same things about female rape victims as well, with them pulling the old "they shouldn't of been dressed like sluts!" routine. I know a girl at my work, super-conservative and anti-abortion even in cases of rape, who basically thinks rape victims more or less deserve it because they don't adhere to the same standards as she does.

    Really, the "they shouldn't be dressed like that!" argument is flawed because it's not like women dress up specifically to appeal to the opposite sex and get laid. I'd imagine, in fact, that many women like to dress up to simply feel better about themselves, or to simply show off to their friends and such. I mean, when I dress nice, I don't do it expecting to get laid, I do it because it makes me feel better about myself. Same with the "they shouldn't be drinking!" idea, women, like men, drink to have fun and let off a bit of stress.
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