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  1. #16
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Exactly what @Evil Figment; said. I can't help but feel sorry for those two boys, but God damn it, you can't just take advantage of people like that.

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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    I think it's a sad situation for everyone involved in this case. The victim, the families, and the two boys. These are teenagers, all with promising futures, but because of the rape ALL of them will be haunted by it for the rest of their lives. While I understand that it may not seem fair that this one decision will have to stay with the boys for the rest of their lives, it was certainly not fair what they did to the victim, or the lasting effects she'll also have to deal with.
    Last edited by Pokemaster97; 18th March 2013 at 09:32 PM.

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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    waiwaiwaiwai

    CNN thinks the rapists are the victims?!, EVEN THOUGH THEY DID SOMETHING VERY ILLEGAL, JUST BECAUSE THEY WILL LOSE OUT ON THEIR LIVES FOR THE NEXT SEVERAL YEARS?!!!

    Why are you looking here? There is nothing here.

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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Figment View Post
    And yes, I know, the lot of you are out there thinking "I'd never do this". And it's true. But believe me, ten, twenty years from now you will look back on your teenage years and there will be things you did that you hope nobody ever bring up again. Because your judgement will have grown sounder then, your mind more developped.
    I'm sorry, but it seems a bit of a reach to describe raping someone and then bragging about it as just a "stupid teenage mistake." It just seems to trivialize what a huge and awful thing rape is.

    There's no justification or rationalization for rape, no matter situation or age. period.

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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious


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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Figment View Post
    And yes, I know, the lot of you are out there thinking "I'd never do this". And it's true. But believe me, ten, twenty years from now you will look back on your teenage years and there will be things you did that you hope nobody ever bring up again. Because your judgement will have grown sounder then, your mind more developped.
    I'm sorry, but it seems a bit of a reach to describe raping someone and then bragging about it as just a "stupid teenage mistake." It just seems to trivialize what a huge and awful thing rape is.

    There's no justification or rationalization for rape, no matter situation or age. period.
    It's not a justification or rationalization; it remain a horrible crime.

    But that does not alter the fact that what a person is, and will do, as a teenager, and what they are, and will do, as adults, are two entirely different things. People grow up in those years. They gain perspective. They change altogether. You should punish them for what they do, yes, but that punishment should account for the fact that they're not as ready to be responsible for their actions as others, and it should account for the fact that they WILL grow up.

    And I'm sorry, but the notion that "This can't just be a teenage mistake" is risible, Jabber. Teenage mistakes don't stop at little things. Teenage mistake is a whole wide category of things people do because grasping the notion of responsibility for your own actions take time, and of how your actions impact others and cause them harm and pain take time. That's what teenage mistakes are all about.

    Here, yes, they harmed someone., They harmed someone a lot. And they deserve punished for it. But even so, you still cannot pretend they were at adult-levvels of understandign of how what they did harmed the girl, because having a hard time relating to the harm you cause others" is one of the most fundamental aspects of teenage attitude.
    Last edited by Evil Figment; 19th March 2013 at 02:32 PM.
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Jenny Trout has a really interesting article about this on her blog. It's also attracted a lot of comments and sparked a lot of discussion.

    What concerns me is one thing Jenny mentions about victim blaming and how lot of the commentors agreed, being all like 'if I want to dress in a short skirt and go out and get drunk, I should be able to without fear of being raped!' Now of course victim blaming is bad and it is never the victim's fault if they get raped. What they were wearing shouldn't even be an issue, and anyone who uses the 'she dressed like a slut and was drunk so she was asking for it' defense...well, they're assholes.

    This said, I fear that some people are confusing theory and reality, and blurring the lines between 'it's your fault you got raped' and 'please have some common sense'.

    Let's say that a young girl goes out one night to a bar in what she knows is a rough part of town. She has no friends with her, and no rape alarm, and she gets so drunk that she can barely stand. If she is grabbed on her way out, taken down a dark alley and raped, is the rape her fault? Of course not. Was she inviting it? Not in the slightest. But even pretending for a moment that there was no bad consequence, was putting herself in a situation where she is in an unknown place, surrounded by strangers, and too disoriented to make intelligent choices a foolish thing to do? Yes. Just as much as a young man who takes a stroll into a bad neighborhood wearing a nice suit, a Rolex, and counting his money in an obvious way. Is this man doing anything wrong? No. Are both she and he perfectly within their rights, and should they feel safe to do what they did? Yes. But would you want someone you care about to do it...or would you advise against it, because you know it's potentially dangerous?

    In a perfect world of course you can and should be able to do the 2 above examples without fear. But unfortunately we live in the real world where, all gender issues aside, crime is a thing that happens. There are nasty people out there; not just rapists, but muggers, pedophiles and murderers. Don't make it easier for them by not protecting yourself wherever possible. If you want to go out and get absolutely obliterated, ensure that someone trustworthy knows where you're going and that you'll be able to get a ride home. I know common sense will, tragically, only take us so far - you can take all the precautions in the world and still be attacked in the street. But the least we can do is encourage our children, our friends, and ourselves, to be a little more safe in their actions.

    Of course what I've just said does not apply even in the slightest to Jenny Trout's situation described in her post, or this poor girl's in the news story; it goes without saying that if you're being plied with alcohol or drugs in a comfortable situation with people you believe you can trust - like an adult family friend or your circle of peers - then the blame goes to the perpetrator who was not only disgusting enough to violate you, but diabolical enough to manipulate you into a false sense of security first, which of course implies that they knew EXACTLY what they were doing.

    My heart goes out to any victims who have suffered rape in any of its forms, and I only hope that in my lifetime we can see an end to victim blaming, and a change from 'girls, don't get raped' to 'boys, don't rape'.

    Just my 2 cents on the matter...

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  8. #23
    Face of mercy? NOPE Yato's Avatar
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    What has been done cannot be undone. The consequences are theirs to take, and what treatment from the society they will later get as adults - that is also theirs to take. They chose to rape someone - they chose to take 'rapists' as their name, and nothing in the world will allow them to take that permament sticker off. The responsibilities are fully theirs, and no matter how much remorse they might feel later on - time will never turn back
    @Evil Figment; I thought even children knew it was wrong to rape people? Or am I mistaken? Young children know that rape is wrong, and those teens did that, knowing rape is wrong. I cannot see that as a teen mistake, and I'm afraid views on them will never change once people learn they raped someone as a teen. How many people would view rape as a mere teen mistake that can be taken lightly and waved away?
    Last edited by Yato; 19th March 2013 at 09:19 PM.

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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    You've never done something you knew was wrong?

    It's one thing to know (that is, to have been told) somethign is wrong. It'S a whole, whole, whole, whole other thing to understand the impact of doing that thing, and thus to really *grasp* that you shouldn't do it; to integrate and understand that knowledge, and act accordingly.
    Last edited by Evil Figment; 20th March 2013 at 09:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mintaka and Hurristat
    He's an evil director / He'll give out infractions / Do something wrong / And he takes direct actions
    Then what'll he do?/ He'll permaban you / You find your name slashed / With a message, 'Adieu'
    Sooooo...watch out!
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  10. #25
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Figment View Post
    You've never done something you knew was wrong?

    It's one thing to know (that is, to have been told) somethign is wrong. It'S a whole, whole, whole, whole other thing to understand the impact of doing that thing, and thus to really *grasp* that you shouldn't do it; to integrate and understand that knowledge, and act accordingly.
    So you're saying teens actually need to commit it and be thrown in prison to fully understand and *grasp* and learn that rape/murder/other crimes is wrong....?

    -.- That is just utter nonsense. You don't necessarily shove your hand in fire and burn your fingers to learn fire is hot. You don't eat mud to see if it's chocolate. You just *know* what you shouldn't do. You don't rape people to learn that rape is wrong.

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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Of course it's nonsense, because itS' the words you are putting into my mouth. Not what I said. Honesty, please.

    I said "Knowing somethign is wrong isn't the same as understanding why it's wrong". And I said that understanding why something is wrong is a far more effective reason not to do it than just knowing it's wrong.

    You don't need to actually do it to understand why not to. But (when it's wrong because of what it does to others) you need to be able to relate to others, and that's one ability teenagers are abyssymal at (and studies show this: they're worst than either kids or adults at empathizing with their fellow men)

    That teenagers are as good at not doing wrong as adult remain a moronic fantasy of the eye-for-an-eye sort.
    Last edited by Evil Figment; 21st March 2013 at 09:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mintaka and Hurristat
    He's an evil director / He'll give out infractions / Do something wrong / And he takes direct actions
    Then what'll he do?/ He'll permaban you / You find your name slashed / With a message, 'Adieu'
    Sooooo...watch out!
    "It is said that the federal government, if it was in charge of the Sahara, would run out of sand in five years. Private enterprise, being more efficient, would do it in half the time - and they'd make money off the bridges." - me.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton's last letter. Rest in peace, Jack.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Quote Originally Posted by LadySasaki View Post
    This said, I fear that some people are confusing theory and reality, and blurring the lines between 'it's your fault you got raped' and 'please have some common sense'.
    I think the reason this kind of advice tends to upset a lot of people is that here we have a crime perpetrated overwhelmingly by men against women; men who are able to do it because they have power, be it physical or psychological, over their victims. And what is the best advice that we, as a society, can do to counter this? To tell women "Don't wear a short skirt and don't get drunk! It's your responsibility to prevent rapes!"

    Of course, this advice is, at its best, highly situational. Most rapes don't occur at times or places where either of these factors would be relevant. The advice offers a false sense of security to some: "I don't get drunk or dress like that so I'm safe!" And, as we have seen in this very case, it's used to stigmatize victims. "She got drunk! She didn't follow the rules, so she had it coming!" Note that a lot of the comments of this nature came from girls of around the same age as the victim. There's a certain sense of self-reassurance going on here; the commenter essentially asserting that it would never happen to them; they are sensible and how stupid would you have to be to let something like this happen to yourself? Because the awful truth is that this could happen to anyone, and we as a species can't deal with that. We have to work out some kind of magic "system" for avoiding the horrors we see on the news every day.

    The reason that this advice gets labeled as victim-blaming is because it essentially is. That doesn't mean that it isn't sometimes still good advice, but it says something pretty terrible about society when the best we can do to prevent rape is to advise women to make themselves less tempting targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Figment View Post
    I do feel a bit of sympathy for these kids. Not because they'r efootball players; because they're teenagers.
    I think there's more to this than dumb teenagers being dumb. I think their status as celebrated football players actually contributed to this mess. They were treated like the gods of this town. Their status has clearly allowed them to get away with stuff before, perhaps in much smaller ways than this, but it reinforced the notion in their minds that they were untouchable and that they didn't need to fear consequences. It would be tough for anyone to maintain a healthy sense of perspective under those circumstances. As malleable teenagers, they got sucked in completely.

    That's why they were so bewildered in the courtroom. You weren't seeing remorse because I don't think either one fully realizes what they did was morally wrong. They were crying because their insulated world had been punctured and suddenly, for the first time, they were being punished for treating someone like crap, rather than it being a huge, hilarious joke. And I'm sure it all felt very unfair and arbitrary to them.

    Even the town is still stuck in this illusion, weeping for their fallen gods and wishing death upon the one girl who is somehow responsible for all of this and wouldn't just go along with it all like everyone else. The rage you see from these people is so frothing and unfocused. They're just as confused as their idiot gods are, and just as convinced that there was no crime here, just gods doing what gods are entitled to do.

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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikini Miltank View Post
    The reason that this advice gets labeled as victim-blaming is because it essentially is. That doesn't mean that it isn't sometimes still good advice, but it says something pretty terrible about society when the best we can do to prevent rape is to advise women to make themselves less tempting targets.
    Don't know if I'll be hated for this one, but I kinda beg to differ. I mean, when a woman wears something revealing and gets unwanted attention... then I am not really going to feel bad for them. Because as kids, we had it beaten in our heads (well, the ones who were raised conservative much like myself) that what we wear can either send a right or wrong message. Wearing something revealing and (and or add that with being drunk) can send the wrong message. Which is why men in prison alot of times refrain from having their pants down to their butts.

    I'm not saying it's the victim's fault because rape is a horrible crime. I'm really not. But I have my opinions.

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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikini Miltank View Post
    That's why they were so bewildered in the courtroom. You weren't seeing remorse because I don't think either one fully realizes what they did was morally wrong. They were crying because their insulated world had been punctured and suddenly, for the first time, they were being punished for treating someone like crap, rather than it being a huge, hilarious joke. And I'm sure it all felt very unfair and arbitrary to them.

    Even the town is still stuck in this illusion, weeping for their fallen gods and wishing death upon the one girl who is somehow responsible for all of this and wouldn't just go along with it all like everyone else. The rage you see from these people is so frothing and unfocused. They're just as confused as their idiot gods are, and just as convinced that there was no crime here, just gods doing what gods are entitled to do.
    Mankind at its finest...

    Personally, I have little sympathy for those individuals. Their hands have tainted another person's life with psychological scars for the rest of her life. As such, they need to be held responsible for this. "Godhood" or not.

    Speaking of godhood, what you've said, Bikini Miltank, made me think that there really needs to be done something about this whole worshiping football players, baseball players and everything in between as gods. They're humans. Humans makes mistakes, sometimes small, sometimes big, and sometimes downright stupid, like this case in my opinion.
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    Default Re: 16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

    Quote Originally Posted by Haruhi. View Post
    I mean, when a woman wears something revealing and gets unwanted attention... then I am not really going to feel bad for them.
    I'm not saying it's the victim's fault because rape is a horrible crime. I'm really not. But I have my opinions.
    So let me get this straight.
    You think that dressing/acting a particular way doesn't make it the victim's fault.
    But if the victim dressed/acted that way, you won't feel sorry for them, even though you think it wasn't their fault.

    Then why don't you feel sorry for them? Does dressing a certain way mean that they deserved what happened to them?

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