Thread: Super Smash Bros Mafia - 12/21 - The End - Town Victory

That's not really red text, it's more of a dark maroon. /pickyartist

I'd say that what it LOOKS like is Baron Dante's death, which has been swept up by the Janitor. He might not actually be dead, though. I don't think mafia would risk killing one of their own, so it's possible that he a) faked it, or b) he isn't mafia, but isn't town, either.

So someone may or may not have died? And that person has an unknown role/alignment? I-I think I need to sit down and think this over @_@

If this is the work of a janitor, I don't really think it affects anything. We'd know that one of the mafia is likely a janitor, but otherwise, we'll be doing exactly what they want: stand around being confused. Since there's no way to learn anything about Baron Dante's alignment and ability now, moving on looks like the best option, and perhaps later we might be able to infer from other info what he was.

It looks like we're back to random voting.

Vote: Chaosj2

Let's get this party started, I guess?

Why do we have to go back to random voting, though? The day one discussions over Sputnik and the thoughts that followed seem to be full of info we could look through. Such as Elysion's independent double voter claim, which I am honestly not entirely sold on.

Speaking of...

Originally Posted by Elysion

Well, damn, there's a janitor.

And it'd be nice if some people could speak up, please. ^^;

Considering that it's only now Day 2, why are you so quick to want people to speak up? If you meant to speak up for this phase, only one minute had passed since the update was posted, so that couldn't be it.

The quicker other people speak up, the easier it is for you to sneak by unnoticed, especially after having to out your claim in-thread?

Originally Posted by FinalArcadia

Why do we have to go back to random voting, though? The day one discussions over Sputnik and the thoughts that followed seem to be full of info we could look through. Such as Elysion's independent double voter claim, which I am honestly not entirely sold on.

Speaking of...

Originally Posted by Elysion

Well, damn, there's a janitor.

And it'd be nice if some people could speak up, please. ^^;

Considering that it's only now Day 2, why are you so quick to want people to speak up? If you meant to speak up for this phase, only one minute had passed since the update was posted, so that couldn't be it.

The quicker other people speak up, the easier it is for you to sneak by unnoticed, especially after having to out your claim in-thread?

No, that's not it. I just want other people to get into the discussion as well. Yeah, I realize its only day 2, but it would be nice to have other people's input as well, see how they think about the situation, including my claim.

This was also the reasoning behind my vote, which was not exactly random. I voted for someone I suspect, and would like to get more information from.

There are 21 players, but only 10 or so have posted at all since the first day phase ended. We know next to nothing.

Originally Posted by FinalArcadia

If this is the work of a janitor, I don't really think it affects anything.

I think it does. Janitor is a Mafia-only role unless there is some vig janitor, but with only one death I doubt that. Now that they've used it on Baron Dante, they'll most likely use his role as a fakeclaim, so we'll have to be on our toes out for them. The question is though, why Baron Dante? Was it something he said?

Trying to think about the characters in SSBverse, it might not be that bad of an idea to think about how roles would be going for characters. Sure, nameclaiming is out, but being able to make educated guesses when roleclaims start coming in can help.

For example, this independent double voter claim. There are no other characters that work in pairs, but I can think of several characters that might be plausible, them being Olimar (Because you know, Pikmin. Theorethically possible for the Pikmin to count as a vote), R.O.B. (SSE had way too many ROBs forced to create and blow dem bombs, so it could work), Pokemon Trainer (3 Pokemon and whatnot), and last, Master Hand and Crazy Hand (Master Hand is likely to be in the game, while Crazy Hand alone is not). Obviously, this assumes multiple characters aren't assigned to a single role. I doubt that would happen, but...

Out of these, I can kinda see other roles for most of them, so in particular, I could imagine the MH/CH combo working. It would also make sense on the whole Independent thing.

There's nothing I'd say is Nightkill bait here :/. Maybe Baron Dante PMed somebody secretly and hinted their claim?

Open this for my reply to Human.

Originally Posted by HumanDawn

I can't see how it's a scumtell. And I don't think I told Sputnik to claim outloud.

Yeah, you did. You said "There are some things you could do: A) Claim". That equates to telling her to claim, as far as I can see. So, yeah, you actually did tell her to claim, so my point on trying to out power roles D1 still stands. After she claimed, you asked for a counter-claim, despite the possibility that has happened SO many times occurring again: that there are more than one double-voter in the setup. Since you were probably aware of this -- or, at least, anyone with common sense would be -- you tried to out further power roles on D1, even if it was only just going to be another double-voter.

Originally Posted by HumanDawn

You misunderstood what I meant. I meant to say that in general she acts scummy. If she changed her strategy and playstyle a bit, then people wouldn't read her as scum and vote her. It might be a null read, but HELL, IT'S SOMETHING. She was Mafia in Bleach, meta meta meta and how she acted in there reminded me a lot of what she did here.

If she changed her strategy and playstyle, that wouldn't change the way she posts at all, and so it wouldn't change peoples' opinions of her. Nobody knows another person's strategy in a game, so you can't tell her to change that, simply because you don't know what it is. Same goes for playstyle, I guess. Neither of those things will change the way she posts for the most part, and so, even if she did change her strategy/playstyle, nobody would pick up on it if she posted in the same way. She could actually make a conscious effort sometime to try and post a little less suspiciously, but I think it's mainly her lack of understanding of scummy behaviour and willingness to post constantly that land her in the messes that she gets in every single game. It's not that hard to leave something out of a post, or leave a post out of a thread entirely, but I genuinely don't think that she understands how scummy she comes across as, merely because she doesn't know what she's expected not to post if she's town. You didn't mention her posting style, however, so this is null advice, and it simply sounds like you were trying to buddy with Dark Blueberry by agreeing with her, and, although this 'advice' *sounded* substantial, it wasn't.

She was acting the same as ALWAYS, as far as my meta knowledge extends about her. You can't really give an example of when she was a specific alignment, in my opinion, because that just sounds like more justification for the innocent lynch, despite there being no real reason behind it at all -- and also because it's not really true.

Originally Posted by HumanDawn

I don't see how it isn't. If you're a Town player and you're going to get lynched, you'd want to suggest alternatives and ideas to who could be Mafia. It's anti-Town to cause a mislynch on yourself. If you know you're Town, then you'd be careful to not sound like scum since it would be deteriminal to the Town. And these suggestions were only to help Sputnik. I didn't actually vote her when I thought I did. The person you should be asking here is Midorikawa. She was the one forcing the lynch the most. When Sputnik claimed outloud, I wanted to hear of a counterclaim. When she was counterclaimed, I thought I had more of a reason to vote for her, and considered the other possibilities of whether Elysion fakeclaimed to me or not.

deflecting suspicion =/= defending yourself

Townies do not deflect suspicion onto somebody else -- they are meant to defend themselves against what they're being charged with if they really want to stay alive. It's not anti-town to CAUSE a mislynch on yourself, merely because it's impossible to actually do that -- it's not a person's fault if they're being lynched, it's the fault of the people who are lynching them. If you're really suggesting that it's Sputnik's fault she was lynched, rather than the faulty reasoning of the people who were voting her, be my guest, although that is, to be blunt, complete bullshit. Apart from that, it's not always a person's fault if they seem scummy -- it's largely up to the opinions of other people, actually.

"You should be asking Midorikawa": although I've pointed it out as being wrong, and you said it was only useful in situations where you're about to be lynched, you go ahead and deflect my suspicion on you to Midorikawa? Right, because that is really not a contradiction at all. You couldn't possibly have been lynched during the night-time, but yet you still employ this strategy you say is for townies that are about to be lynched? Wonderful! A healthy contradiction always livens me up a little more to the fact that people are scum.

Originally Posted by HumanDawn

I didn't want her to be mislynched. I had my doubts, that's why I enforced her. I may not be the best player, but I thought that it was a good reason. Day One or not. What is a real reason for you then?

Okay, so you thought that, because Sputnik was being more erratic than usual -- which she definitely wasn't, although you're trying to make it sound like she was -- it would be a good idea to lynch her? I'm sorry, but erratic does not mean scum, or even suspicious at all. More justification for a stupid lynch. A real reason for what? Lynching somebody? There are a myriad, and none of them are lynching somebody because they're 'squirming more than usual even though they aren't'.

Originally Posted by HumanDawn

You brought up some good points that are completely normal for you. So, I can't think that you're paranoid.

yes you are!!!

I guess you learned your lesson that calling me paranoid doesn't put me off at all. I'm pretty sure I made points like these in GSCHGSS Mafia and you shrugged them off as me being paranoid. Yeah, that doesn't work.

Originally Posted by HumanDawn

I think the real question here is why she didn't in the first place? When she PMed me that she was the Double Voter, I assumed that she didn't want to be outed, so as to respect her choice and possibly use her as a potential ally to help get rid of Mafia assuming her claim is true, I didn't out her. It's her choice. That's what I thought and said. She could still be Mafia, but I can't be so sure.

Why would she? Independents don't usually out themselves just to counter-claim somebody unless they're anti-town in the first place, because they know that they might get a mislynch caused, although that would still be as effective by claiming to you. You should still have outed her -- potential is not a surety, and should never be treated as such, so there's no point in shielding somebody that "has the potential" to be working against you behind your back anyway. It's not her choice if she claims to you -- it's your own choice, not hers, if you out her or not. You shouldn't particularly care if she's independent.

~*~

@Elysion; What is your win-condition, anyway?
@Shadows; is correct about the whole FinalArcadia thing. She didn't claim double-voter. I assumed that she would have been the one that did. It fitted, okay? ;p It would have worked well if I'd predicted right, but there's nothing I can really do about misprediction now.

Anyway, a better question, perhaps, would be as to why Baron Dante was killed, assuming that he is, indeed, dead? (derp, Human just posed this question, but I was making a longer post, okay? ;<)

For now, though, I'm going to Vote: HumanDawn.

Read my reply to him (above) and this post for all my points on why. ^^

Originally Posted by Buoy

Yeah, you did. You said "There are some things you could do: A) Claim". That equates to telling her to claim, as far as I can see. So, yeah, you actually did tell her to claim, so my point on trying to out power roles D1 still stands. After she claimed, you asked for a counter-claim, despite the possibility that has happened SO many times occurring again: that there are more than one double-voter in the setup. Since you were probably aware of this -- or, at least, anyone with common sense would be -- you tried to out further power roles on D1, even if it was only just going to be another double-voter.

Yes, I told her to claim, but not Outloud inthread. She could have done it in anyway she wanted, but she chose to say it outloud. I asked for any counterclaims quickly and got a counterclaim. What's so scummy about that? You did the same thing in the recent MLP:Mafia asking everybody with a mention to counterclaim Baron Dante when he claimed Miller outloud in thread. He wasn't counter claimed and yet you still lynched him. Heck, you were the one that enforced the lynch, while I didn't on this one. Talk about a shitty self double standard.

Originally Posted by Buoy

If she changed her strategy and playstyle, that wouldn't change the way she posts at all, and so it wouldn't change peoples' opinions of her. Nobody knows another person's strategy in a game, so you can't tell her to change that, simply because you don't know what it is. Same goes for playstyle, I guess. Neither of those things will change the way she posts for the most part, and so, even if she did change her strategy/playstyle, nobody would pick up on it if she posted in the same way. She could actually make a conscious effort sometime to try and post a little less suspiciously, but I think it's mainly her lack of understanding of scummy behaviour and willingness to post constantly that land her in the messes that she gets in every single game. It's not that hard to leave something out of a post, or leave a post out of a thread entirely, but I genuinely don't think that she understands how scummy she comes across as, merely because she doesn't know what she's expected not to post if she's town. You didn't mention her posting style, however, so this is null advice, and it simply sounds like you were trying to buddy with Dark Blueberry by agreeing with her, and, although this 'advice' *sounded* substantial, it wasn't.

She was acting the same as ALWAYS, as far as my meta knowledge extends about her. You can't really give an example of when she was a specific alignment, in my opinion, because that just sounds like more justification for the innocent lynch, despite there being no real reason behind it at all -- and also because it's not really true.

Yes it would. If she changed it to be more careful on what she says, then other players wouldn't jump on her and ask her questions and mislynch her. Agreeing with somebody =/= buddying with them. Akuraito agreed with you, yet did you point it out? No.

Originally Posted by Buoy

deflecting suspicion =/= defending yourself

I'm pretty sure it's the same exact thing. If you remove the suspicion on you by protecting yourself... then... you ARE basically defending yourself.

Originally Posted by Buoy

Townies do not deflect suspicion onto somebody else -- they are meant to defend themselves against what they're being charged with if they really want to stay alive.

I don't think I put any suspicion on Midorikawa. IIRC, she was the first to use the logic on Sputnik being scum for voting No Lynch, while I was merely joking. I'm not saying people should vote her because of it. It's just something to take note of and clarify. Then a bandwagon on Sputnik happened. And if they defend themselves badly then it's their fault.

Originally Posted by Buoy

It's not anti-town to CAUSE a mislynch on yourself, merely because it's impossible to actually do that -- it's not a person's fault if they're being lynched, it's the fault of the people who are lynching them.

You could say it's both sides' fault then.

Originally Posted by Buoy

If you're really suggesting that it's Sputnik's fault she was lynched, rather than the faulty reasoning of the people who were voting her, be my guest, although that is, to be blunt, complete bullshit.

Part of it comes from her behavior and the other from those who lynched her. I didn't agree with the bandwagon on Sputnik because of it. As I said, I was merely joking and pointed out how amazed I was because of it. I agree that it was faulty reasoning to lynch her because for the first time ever she voted for a No Lynch in the first Day Phase, but then she claimed and then the counterclaim happened, giving more reason to those that voted to lynch her. Then the bandwagon became stronger.

Originally Posted by Buoy

Apart from that, it's not always a person's fault if they seem scummy -- it's largely up to the opinions of other people, actually.

This is an interesting point to bring up in the Philosophy thread.

Originally Posted by Buoy

"You should be asking Midorikawa": although I've pointed it out as being wrong, and you said it was only useful in situations where you're about to be lynched, you go ahead and deflect my suspicion on you to Midorikawa? Right, because that is really not a contradiction at all. You couldn't possibly have been lynched during the night-time, but yet you still employ this strategy you say is for townies that are about to be lynched? Wonderful! A healthy contradiction always livens me up a little more to the fact that people are scum.

nope

I just said you should ask these same questions to Midorikawa. I guess you're right on asking me them since it would bring in more information... It never hurts to ask, I guess. I'll keep that in mind to use in the future. And I don't know what strategy you're exactly talking about.

Originally Posted by Buoy

Okay, so you thought that, because Sputnik was being more erratic than usual -- which she definitely wasn't, although you're trying to make it sound like she was -- it would be a good idea to lynch her? I'm sorry, but erratic does not mean scum, or even suspicious at all. More justification for a stupid lynch. A real reason for what? Lynching somebody? There are a myriad, and none of them are lynching somebody because they're 'squirming more than usual even though they aren't'.

Again, that wasn't my main reason why I thought Sputnik was scum. And I did think she was. My opinion. It was the counterclaim that made me think she was scum, making me think that her usual behavior this time really did mean that she was scum like in Bleach.

Originally Posted by Buoy

Why would she? Independents don't usually out themselves just to counter-claim somebody unless they're anti-town in the first place, because they know that they might get a mislynch caused, although that would still be as effective by claiming to you. You should still have outed her -- potential is not a surety, and should never be treated as such, so there's no point in shielding somebody that "has the potential" to be working against you behind your back anyway. It's not her choice if she claims to you -- it's your own choice, not hers, if you out her or not. You shouldn't particularly care if she's independent.

All right. I'll keep that in mind then for another time then.

Originally Posted by Buoy

@Elysion; What is your win-condition, anyway?

Be one of the 4 last players alive.

Originally Posted by Buoy

Anyway, a better question, perhaps, would be as to why Baron Dante was killed, assuming that he is, indeed, dead? (derp, Human just posed this question, but I was making a longer post, okay? ;<)

Well, the post outright said "Baron Dante was killed.". So I don't know where people are getting the idea that he isn't.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Laterose

It looks like we're back to random voting.

Vote: Chaosj2

Let's get this party started, I guess?

Originally Posted by Laterose

This was also the reasoning behind my vote, which was not exactly random. I voted for someone I suspect, and would like to get more information from.

There are 21 players, but only 10 or so have posted at all since the first day phase ended. We know next to nothing.

Uhh, are you referring to Chaosj2? You said it was random voting, then in your next say it was because you suspect them. Could you please clarify?

Originally Posted by HumanDawn

Yes, I told her to claim, but not Outloud inthread. She could have done it in anyway she wanted, but she chose to say it outloud. I asked for any counterclaims quickly and got a counterclaim. What's so scummy about that? You did the same thing in the recent MLP:Mafia asking everybody with a mention to counterclaim Baron Dante when he claimed Miller outloud in thread. He wasn't counter claimed and yet you still lynched him. Heck, you were the one that enforced the lynch, while I didn't on this one. Talk about a shitty self double standard.

You didn't specify at all, and, honestly, it was Day 1. Who was she supposed to claim to? There was nobody who she could really even just claim to because she had a townread on them, since, again, it was Day 1. Asking her to claim so early on pretty much forces her to go in-thread with it.

And that's really not the same situation; miller is hardly a valuable role to anyone town-aligned, so it can't really be considered a power role, meaning that it really isn't 'outing a power role', especially considering that the mafia would be absolute idiots to kill them unless they became a valid threat. A doublevoter, on the other hand, could seriously screw over the mafia in endgame if the numbers were tight enough, so they would probably killed soon enough; they're always a danger, unlike millers.

In any case, you're looking the scummiest to me now, so I'll just VOTE: HumanDawn. Liable to change if something better comes up or whatever.

i'm sorry if this post made no sense. x_x i'm really tired.

Originally Posted by HumanDawn

Yes, I told her to claim, but not Outloud inthread. She could have done it in anyway she wanted, but she chose to say it outloud. I asked for any counterclaims quickly and got a counterclaim. What's so scummy about that? You did the same thing in the recent MLP:Mafia asking everybody with a mention to counterclaim Baron Dante when he claimed Miller outloud in thread. He wasn't counter claimed and yet you still lynched him. Heck, you were the one that enforced the lynch, while I didn't on this one. Talk about a shitty self double standard.

You still made her out her role. It doesn't matter which way she did it, you were still making her claim her role, so the point still stands. Also, those situations are different -- you can't argue one situation with another that doesn't come close to being the same. Baron Dante claimed miller, yes, and I did ask for counter-claims -- that's pretty much all that's the same. Baron Dante and Sputnik, if you haven't noticed, are two completely different people, and these are two completely different games you're talking about. The context, as well as post content -- as well as a plethora of other factors that would take me forever to list -- are nowhere near the same, and so you can't compare my actions in that game to yours in this game. Talk about specious.

Originally Posted by HumanDawn

Yes it would. If she changed it to be more careful on what she says, then other players wouldn't jump on her and ask her questions and mislynch her. Agreeing with somebody =/= buddying with them. Akuraito agreed with you, yet did you point it out? No.

A strategy is not the same thing as a posting style, thank you. As well as that, it's true that agreeing =/= buddying, but, given the fact that your advice was completely insubstantial when things boil right down to it, you basically just were agreeing with Dark Blueberry for the sake of it on that point. Again, you're pointing out something else that's different about our situations -- Akuraito agreed with me, but she didn't do it in a way that was completely pointless, like you were doing with DB.

Originally Posted by HumanDawn

I'm pretty sure it's the same exact thing. If you remove the suspicion on you by protecting yourself... then... you ARE basically defending yourself.

Not entirely.

Originally Posted by HumanDawn

I don't think I put any suspicion on Midorikawa. IIRC, she was the first to use the logic on Sputnik being scum for voting No Lynch, while I was merely joking. I'm not saying people should vote her because of it. It's just something to take note of and clarify. Then a bandwagon on Sputnik happened. And if they defend themselves badly then it's their fault.

How is it their fault, especially in Sputnik's situation? She could hardly defend herself against charges like 'u got counterclaimed' and 'ur squirmy', could she? No.

Originally Posted by HumanDawn

You could say it's both sides' fault then.

er no u couldnt

Originally Posted by HumanDawn

Part of it comes from her behavior and the other from those who lynched her. I didn't agree with the bandwagon on Sputnik because of it. As I said, I was merely joking and pointed out how amazed I was because of it. I agree that it was faulty reasoning to lynch her because for the first time ever she voted for a No Lynch in the first Day Phase, but then she claimed and then the counterclaim happened, giving more reason to those that voted to lynch her. Then the bandwagon became stronger.

but it wasn't the first time ever. she even said that explicitly. this just shows ignorance, or perhaps ignorance you are feigning. i don't see how a counter-claim gives rise to a lynch in the case of double-voters, and since sputnik claimed being town, why would you listen to an independent over her? yea idts bb

Originally Posted by HumanDawn

nope

I just said you should ask these same questions to Midorikawa. I guess you're right on asking me them since it would bring in more information... It never hurts to ask, I guess. I'll keep that in mind to use in the future. And I don't know what strategy you're exactly talking about.

No, you told me that "the person you should be asking here is Midorikawa". This turn of phrase explicitly states that Midorikawa is the person to ask, not a person to ask, and so you were telling me to ask her instead of you, so that point still stands.

Originally Posted by HumanDawn

Again, that wasn't my main reason why I thought Sputnik was scum. And I did think she was. My opinion. It was the counterclaim that made me think she was scum, making me think that her usual behavior this time really did mean that she was scum like in Bleach.

Right, because, again, a counter-claim, especially with double-voters, and especially an 'independent' counter-claim, will mean that a double-voter claim who also claimed to be town is scum. Good thinking, batman. As well as that, you could have maybe said that earlier, instead of adding this on almost as an afterthought, as if trying to mollify me.

ALSO DAMMIT AKURAITO YOUR POST SHOWED UP WHILE I WAS WRITING THIS AND YOU NINJA'D ME CRIES

So I just got on the computer other than the moment I popped on for the update.
@Elysion; So I'm curious how you know what a janitor is. You're still pretty new to mafias and I've been in quite a few with you, but I've never seen a janitor role.

Also I forgot the mafia, but don't just assume janitor guys. In another mafia I was in someone died and came back to live, because they "faked" their death. I don't want to rule out that possibility because it could screw us over if Baron Dante is mafia. Last time people ignored things like flavor text and possible mafia abilities, town lost. Look at the GX mafia for the proof.

@Midorikawa; o_O That's a possibility... though I've ever heard of that. Faking death? Is that really possible? Then shouldn't we vote for Baron just in case? It's still early in the game, so I think making a double-check could be better.

Originally Posted by Dark Blueberry

@Midorikawa; o_O That's a possibility... though I've ever heard of that. Faking death? Is that really possible? Then shouldn't we vote for Baron just in case? It's still early in the game, so I think making a double-check could be better.

I never said vote for him. Just don't let your guard down. It happened before though I'd have to find the mafia. One of my earlier ones. Maybe the Kid Icarus one. I'll look for you guys as soon as I can, though today I'll be busy cleaning and will only be on randomly.