Thread: OTP MAFIA - MAFIA VICTORY [06/01/13]

Originally Posted by Midorikawa

We had a form of lynch protection, it's that simple. Why else would we be alive?

You seemed awfully worried about being lynched though. Your emotional, frantic appeals and attacks on other players only garnered you more votes?

Why burn your vote-protection? It's bad play, for whatever side you're allied with.

Vote: Winter Enchantress

While I would love to lynch Midorikawa + KidBeano for bad play and anti-town play, Winter Enchantress has been much shadier.
I'll come back to you two, Mido + KB.

Winter Enchantress: why did you avoid nick's question day one?
Why go through the empty charade of FoSing Midorikawa, when you could back up your assertions with a vote? You know just as well that killing Buoy is WIFOM and means nothing. You seem awfully sure in your assertions.
All you've done is dodge, and give empty answers, and when you do make an assertion, you're invalidly collapsing a WIFOM scenario.
What say you?

1. Simple. If I gave away my role early on, the mafia could see me as a threat and take me out. If you want me to roleclaim then I will.
2. I don't even know what a WIFOM even is, and I don't want to deal with all of this meta stuff.

Originally Posted by Winter Enchantress

1. Simple. If I gave away my role early on, the mafia could see me as a threat and take me out. If you want me to roleclaim then I will.
2. I don't even know what a WIFOM even is, and I don't want to deal with all of this meta stuff.

Have you read and understood the entire thread? I ask because this has been addressed:

Originally Posted by twinArmageddons

WIFOM is going to exist whether you like it or not, and ignoring its existence gets you nowhere. All it is is when you are thrown into a cycle of "they are mafia" "they are not mafia" "they are mafia" "they are not mafia" etc.

If I say "hey everyone i'm mafia", your thought process would be:
"Well they wouldn't actually say that in thread were they mafia because then they'd be lynched, so they're town!"
"But they would want me to think that so they're not lynched and they become fairly clear, so they're mafia!"
"But it'd be stupid of a mafia player to say that, so they're town"
ad infinitum

WIFOM is a state of being and therefore disliking its existence is a futile practice.

WIFOM was named for this scene from "The Princess Bride":



WIFOM is the trap you get into of "He's looks like town, so he's town -- unless he knows I'd think that and is mafia -- unless he knows I'd think that and is town -- unless he knows I'd think that and is mafia..."

"Meta stuff" is about how mafia is played. You can't reasonably do anything in mafia without using or describing "meta stuff".

Without talking about the "Meta stuff" we're pretty defenseless as a town. For instance:

In this case twinArmageddons and I think that interrogating you on your behavior is the best play -- which is why we're doing it. It is impossible to disagree with this play or respond to it without getting into the "Meta stuff" -- which is really about what the best way to play the game is. You can't lynch anybody without arguing "this is what's best for the town" -- meta stuff.

If we don't talk about meta stuff, how do we catch scum?

If you get with all of the technical terms and whatnot, it just puts people off from voting. As we seen in the day 1. People didn't want to see it, so they chose to hold off on voting until we actually got real evidence, and were actually talking about catching scum. Not about the meta itself.

See? If you just said interrogating me instead of calling it WIFOM or such, then it's much easier to understand.

and I didn't ignore its existence per se. It's just that I don't understand it, and it just makes things much more confusing to me.

I already said I'd roleclaim if you guys wanted me to.

Originally Posted by Winter Enchantress

2. I don't even know what a WIFOM even is, and I don't want to deal with all of this meta stuff.

WIFOM != meta

You shouldn't be playing mafia if you don't want to deal with WIFOM, as it is an integral part of the game.

Originally Posted by Mafiascum Wiki

WIFOM is the circular reasoning that results from trying to determine the choices of an opponent who acted with full knowledge that their behavior would be subject to scrutiny.

Read more here.

Originally Posted by Winter Enchantress

If you get with all of the technical terms and whatnot, it just puts people off from voting.

If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. I'm using WIFOM because it is the term that describes the situation. Would you prefer that I use "that thing where you do reverse double logic and go in circles forever"? No, because we already have a term for it. Next point.

As we seen in the day 1. People didn't want to see it, so they chose to hold off on voting until we actually got real evidence, and were actually talking about catching scum. Not about the meta itself.

Talking about strategies and possible motivations is how you catch mafia. That is a meta-discussion, although it's not meta. If I can't talk about WIFOM being used without the whole fucking game jumping on me about not using technical terms, then this is the shittiest town I ever did see. It's day two. We have next to no information. Our "meta talk" is how you catch mafia in early game, by trying to figure out the motivations for certain actions early on. By telling us to ignore this, you are handicapping the town, and that is hella scummy.

See? If you just said interrogating me instead of calling it WIFOM or such, then it's much easier to understand.

I am interrogating you. I also mention your disposal of the existence of WIFOM right now as part of my interrogation. Go read up on what WIFOM is and come back.

Also it is 100000000% clear that you didn't actually read Phoenicks's post. Please do.

and I didn't ignore its existence per se. It's just that I don't understand it, and it just makes things much more confusing to me.

So go read up! This seems awfully willfully ignorant. I asked you a question and your answer was "you used a word i didn't understand so i'm going to ignore your entire post". You are giving me more and more ammunition for me to keep that vote locked right on you.

If another person complains about WIFOM
I will shit so many bricks i will make a fucking chimney

back to the fucking point

why are you so sure that Midorikawa killed Buoy and Mako?

I already said I'd roleclaim if you guys wanted me to.

Originally Posted by Winter Enchantress

1. Simple. If I gave away my role early on, the mafia could see me as a threat and take me out. If you want me to roleclaim then I will.

Nononononono
roleclaiming is the dumbest thing we could do at this point
and honestly if your case for innocence is that "i can roleclaim to you" that is really weak
i just want you to explain your motivation for your really shady actions

to everyone: I just want to play the goddamned game. If you're going to argue with me on things that are facts like WIFOM, I will vote for you because you are a detriment to the town.

@twinArmageddons; I find it ironic that you're saying meta and WIFOM are part of the game yet, I was attacked for using meta.

Originally Posted by Midorikawa

@twinArmageddons; I find it ironic that you're saying meta and WIFOM are part of the game yet, I was attacked for using meta.

You were using the metagame to argue, which is bullshit.
Not meta-analysis, which is how you scumhunt.

Next question.
(And please make it about how you think x person is scummy for y reason (which can use WIFOM if you want to for fuck's sake (but please look it up and understand it first) but do not derail the thread with arguments about things that are non-negotiable)

actually, now that I think about it, Winter Enchantress is just avoiding the questions i asked her by bringing up the WIFOM bullshit
another scum mark in my book

Originally Posted by twinArmageddons

Originally Posted by Midorikawa

@twinArmageddons; I find it ironic that you're saying meta and WIFOM are part of the game yet, I was attacked for using meta.

You were using the metagame to argue, which is bullshit.
Not meta-analysis, which is how you scumhunt.

Next question.

What's the difference because now I'm confused.

Originally Posted by Midorikawa

Originally Posted by twinArmageddons

Originally Posted by Midorikawa

@twinArmageddons; I find it ironic that you're saying meta and WIFOM are part of the game yet, I was attacked for using meta.

You were using the metagame to argue, which is bullshit.
Not meta-analysis, which is how you scumhunt.

Next question.

What's the difference because now I'm confused.

You were talking about "here's something from a past game that I can apply". What we're talking about is "here is what we think is the best way to play".

You weren't being criticized because you were trying to argue what you thought was the best thing to do. You were criticized when you jumped back into conversations that weren't about that. We here are arguing that what people are criticizing (and was called) "the meta stuff" is exactly what mafia is about -- deciding what the best way to play is.

Originally Posted by Midorikawa

What's the difference because now I'm confused.

Meta-game: "Well I know person x did y in game z so that means that they'll always do y, which means that x is mafia/town"
Meta-argument: "A mafia player would, in this scenario, have the motivation to do a because of b. Player c has not done this, so therefore they do not seem to be mafia to me."

Meta-game is more specific than meta-arguments.

If you have further questions about meta and WIFOM and other things that exist in-game, I'm sure Phoenicks and I would love to answer them in the Situation Room or the Mafia Strategy thread. Tag us and we will explain away to our heart's content. This thread should not be used to clarify basic things about the game of mafia. If you don't understand a certain word or strategy, the onus is not on the person using the word/strategy to explain it, but rather you. Go look it up yourself and stop distracting conversation in-thread.

I am done explaining basic tenets of the game.

Anyway, Winter Enchantress:
I wasn't asking about anything regarding your role. I wanted to know why you did what you did. That has nothing to do with the role, and you continue to avoid questioning from everyone.

I said why. I said I didn't want the mafia to know my role and kill me early on. I don't know how that is avoiding the question when I just said why I wouldn't answer his question to begin with? I mean, what else can I really contribute to this game aside from my role.

Originally Posted by Winter Enchantress

I said why. I said I didn't want the mafia to know my role and kill me early on. I don't know how that is avoiding the question when I just said why I wouldn't answer his question to begin with?

Okay, I'll phrase this more directly:
1) Do you have any thoughts about who is scummy?
2) Why do you think it's so suspicious that Buoy got killed after his scuffle with Midorikawa? You seem awfully sure she did it, even though there's an equally likely chance that it's the mafia framing her.
(I just used WIFOM as part of my argument without using the term. It is inexcapable. Go read Phoenicks's and my post.)

I mean, what else can I really contribute to this game aside from my role.

your thoughts
your scumhunting abilities
your analysis
to be honest, your role is the least important thing you can contribute

Just wanna make this clear: Mido and I do/did not have a "Lynch protection" or "Lynch immunity", per se. However, I'll just double check with her that what I thought happened actually did happen, and then I can explain.

Anyway, I'm tired, and all I can get from the thread so far is "wifom wifom wifom meta meta meta herp". Only thing I can really latch on to is the fact that Winter seemed sure it was Buoy who was the mafia's target, when it doesn't actually say or imply that anywhere - it could very easily have been Mako. Could be a slip [mafia kill Buoy in attempt to frame forgetting about the double-kill masking the actual target], could be it was just a poor assumption. Either way, I feel it's noteworthy.

PichuBoy makes a great point there. @Winter Enchantress, what are your thoughts on that? And since you don't know how to contribute other than your role, I'll get you started. Who are your three top FoSes, and why? By now you should have at least three, whether they're minor or major.

@Midorikawa, @KidBeano: You two have conflicting stories about this. Midori came right out and said it was a lynch immunity. However, KidBeano tried to put down that idea and needs to double check something for now. It may be stalling, but I'll wait to hear what happened first.

Originally Posted by DrumBeats

PichuBoy makes a great point there. @Winter Enchantress, what are your thoughts on that? And since you don't know how to contribute other than your role, I'll get you started. Who are your three top FoSes, and why? By now you should have at least three, whether they're minor or major.

@Midorikawa, @KidBeano: You two have conflicting stories about this. Midori came right out and said it was a lynch immunity. However, KidBeano tried to put down that idea and needs to double check something for now. It may be stalling, but I'll wait to hear what happened first.

Correction: Mido said we had "some form of lynch protection". That's why I wanted to clarify: she was kind of stating the truth, and kind of not. However, I didn't want to out our role in case it wasn't actually what I thought it was that stopped it. I guess in retrospect, the fact that she said "we had protection" was confirmation enough, but eh.

Anyway, Mido confirmed in our QT. Our role was that once during the game we could stop a lynch, and she used it yesterday to stop the lynch against us. Yes Twin said roleclaiming wasn't good play this early in the game but look at it this way:

a) Our role is useless now - we're vanillas, technically.
b) You guys find us scummy, so the mafia won't ever target us. Therefore, we're not diverting a potential mafia kill away from us by confirming we're not a Power Role, as that scenario would never have happened in the first place.

I'll see what Winter has to say before I vote.