Thread: Will BW be the end of Team Rocket/Rocket-Dan?

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Well I called it from the beginning of the saga.

So what? You call everything at the beginning of every saga. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Originally Posted by Hidden Mew

At this point, I think that expecting a proper ending is too much.

I agree. The writers may be good at a lot of things, but wrapping up the cast members' stories in a satisfying way is not one of them. Look at Kasumi's departure (oh I have to go back to my gym BYE), look at Shigeru's departure (I'm going to be a scientist for no adequately explored reason!), look at Takeshi's departure (I'm going to study to do this job that was made up one episode ago!)...most of the goodbyes in this show have this horrible, slapped-together-at-the-last-minute vibe to them.

I wouldn't be surprised of the Rocket trio got the same treatment, especially considering how crappy the writers have been to them this series. Everyone expects there to be this huge epic showdown between Satoshi and Sakaki and for the whole "Rocket-Dan gets disbanded" thing to become this major story arc, but the truth of the matter is that the precedence isn't really there. I expect a two-parter at most.

Originally Posted by Dogasu

I agree. The writers may be good at a lot of things, but wrapping up the cast members' stories in a satisfying way is not one of them. Look at Kasumi's departure (oh I have to go back to my gym BYE), look at Shigeru's departure (I'm going to be a scientist for no adequately explored reason!), look at Takeshi's departure (I'm going to study to do this job that was made up one episode ago!)...most of the goodbyes in this show have this horrible, slapped-together-at-the-last-minute vibe to them.

That's a really good point. I think that Brock's departure made the most sense out of those examples and at least had a bit of foreshadowing due to how often he took care of injured Pokemon in DP, but I agree that even that felt fairly rushed and last minute as well. I think that the only times they did provide satisfying closure for a character in their departure were with Dawn and arguably May. I haven't seen Battle Frontier for a long time, so my memory might be a bit fuzzy about May's sendoff. I definitely couldn't see the writers providing a proper ending with Ash given how they've handled the sendoffs to most of the main characters. Though, the only ending I could see them giving Ash anyway would be having him run off with Pikachu to a brand new unnamed region, which wouldn't offer much, if any closure.

Originally Posted by Dogasu

I wouldn't be surprised of the Rocket trio got the same treatment, especially considering how crappy the writers have been to them this series. Everyone expects there to be this huge epic showdown between Satoshi and Sakaki and for the whole "Rocket-Dan gets disbanded" thing to become this major story arc, but the truth of the matter is that the precedence isn't really there. I expect a two-parter at most.

If Team Rocket is written off, I wouldn't expect a well paced and written departure for them either. The writers have completely disregarded their personalities and occasionally have gone back to showing brief moments of their usual selves, making me wonder why on earth they can't find a balance between the two extremes, or just go back to goofy Team Rocket when this "serious" trio has done nothing for months, so I can't see their finale being that good. I could understand why people thought that the whole Team Rocket gets disbanded would be a major story arc at the beginning of BW when they were still surprised to see this new version of Team Rocket and Giovanni appearing in the first few episodes, but I think anyone expecting that kind of treatment for Team Rocket is expecting far too much. If they were going to be used for some major storyline, then the writers wouldn't have Team Rocket absence for months on end with no re-appearance in sight, as far as I know at least, and they probably would have a better idea on how to handle this "serious" trio, instead of clearly not knowing what to do with them. Given the incredibly rushed pace of BW, a two-parter would probably be all any non-league/tournament arc would get anyway.

The reason I expect TR to get a proper departure is AFTER Giovani is gone, they will likely give them another 1-2 episodes to wrap their characters up. They're main characters as much as Ash and the main cast are, (although not so much in BW), so I expect the same.

Also don't we expect to see TR pick up their Sinnoh poekmon from the Rocket base at the least by the end? Maybe we'll even see James reunite with Chimecho and Cacnea too since he still owns them. I'd like to see Arbok/Weezing again but they're probably long gone at this point.

I doubt any of that will happen. Hikari didn't meet back up with her Eteboth and Takeshi never reunited with his Rokon, after all.

Originally Posted by Dogasu

I doubt any of that will happen. Hikari didn't meet back up with her Eteboth and Takeshi never reunited with his Rokon, after all.

But TR's Sinnoh Pokemon were stored at Rocket HQ, they weren't released.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

The reason I expect TR to get a proper departure is AFTER Giovani is gone, they will likely give them another 1-2 episodes to wrap their characters up. They're main characters as much as Ash and the main cast are, (although not so much in BW), so I expect the same.

I don't think that they're doing to do much, if anything, with Giovanni. He's been absent far too long and I don't think that they would need to bring in Team Plasma in order to show what happened to him or what he's currently doing. BW clearly doesn't treat them like main characters since they've been gone for months. I'd imagine if that if they do disband Team Rocket, the trio's characters will be wrapped up within the same two-parter.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Also don't we expect to see TR pick up their Sinnoh poekmon from the Rocket base at the least by the end? Maybe we'll even see James reunite with Chimecho and Cacnea too since he still owns them. I'd like to see Arbok/Weezing again but they're probably long gone at this point.

As cool as that would be, I seriously doubt that they'll get their old Pokemon back. There's a slightly greater chance that they would go for the Pokemon they left at the Team Rocket base, but even that's a pretty huge stretch given how BW isn't interested in using Pokemon from the past generations that aren't Pikachu and Meowth. Chimecho is still in Kanto and I was under the impression that Cacnea wasn't his anymore since he gave it to Gardenia, so I doubt that James will be able reunite with either one of them. Arbok and Weezing are long gone and they're back in Hoenn to begin with. I don't think that they would have all of their older Pokemon that are living in completely different regions brought back.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

But TR's Sinnoh Pokemon were stored at Rocket HQ, they weren't released.

Dawn's Ambipom and Brock's Vulpix weren't released either. They were both given to other trainers, or its original trainer in Vulpix's case, and at least Dawn knew where Ambipom would be after giving it away. Chimecho and Cacnea were given away to other people and James knows where they are, but there's no chance that they would be brought back.

Originally Posted by Dogasu

Yeah, of course.

I'm just saying that there's no reason putting that off anymore. The writers aren't doing anything with the organization, they aren't doing anything with Sakaki, they aren't doing anything with the Rocket trio...just write them all out of the show already.

I still dont think being written out is best solution to this problem.
We already had some who had appeal and potential leaving before it was time(like Tracey,Misty May etc). Repeating same mistake with Jessie,James and Meowth replacing them prematurely despite having juice to do some great thing out of it would be slap in face to their story and all years spent in show.
I would rather have writers restore them and leave on high note,rather than being ditched at end of BW just to be forever remembered in bad light.
And for this keeping them for another series would be required and personally i would enjoy in prospect of something viable and interesting being done in future with them instead of letting it go to waste.

Jessie, James and Meowth are great characters when used right having material to do something notable with characters but unfortunately writers dropped ball with them in BW. They returned Giovanni, restored TR organization as a whole with Rocket trio being given actually important missions not being treated anymore as incompetent fools. Some could say going by this how they planned to do something big with them and story, but unbelievably long absence since last time they appeared(ever since Chargestone episode being around 14 episodes ago) and TR storyline going nowhere at this point leaves different impression. While absence in some episodes can be excused to their change of role, i believe missing for almost 20 episodes is on other hand exaggeration being too much.

Now that Team Plasma two part obviously wont be aired due to unfortunate incident in Japan, i believe chances for some spectacular confrontation between two villain organizations sunk as well.

Perhaps im too hopeful, but i still believe there is left time to save at least partially TR plot in BW, through filler arc and something tells me how Unova wont be end for Giovanni and TR organization with whole thing being conveyed onto next series. Especially after whole plan and mission being stopped in its dead tracks currently.
It never made much sense to me to disband TR in Unova anyway,which is very distant and far from their hometown region not having many fractions or connections over there. Part of reason why im drawing such assumption.

Its rather simple. If Giovanni gets arrested or completely defeated main purpose behind TR existence would be erased being likely that they will lave. However if Giovanni somehow escapes with Rocket organization managing to save itself, i could see Jessie, James and Meowth staying for next series and generation 6. It may not seem how writers care much about them currently but fact that they kept those three for 15 years even after BW partial revamp in a way served as indication how they clearly hold TR to be important part of pokemon series finding how they shouldnt leave still being necessary.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

I am pretty sure if TR are written out, they would revert back to their old personalities in their final eps. Most likely if Giovanni is done with and TR disbands, there will be 2 or so episodes after where Jessie/James/Meowth have to figure out what to do now that the organization is gone. Much like Misty/Brock/May/Dawn deciding to do different goals or travel to different regions, I can see an episode like that.

I believe chances for TR getting proper departure in Unova has sailed away long time ago.Especially now that their story and new roles in Unova are being at standstill not moving forward at all. For good development and proper resolution time is required, something which isnt going in their favor. Disbanding TR organization, arresting Giovanni and wrapping up JJM at this point while possible to be done would end up rushed, unrealistic and contrived with writers having to resort to last minute decisions and excuses to have them send away.

How many ex main companions in reality got even proper or closure at all to their story anyway? May while getting some sense of ending left with story being left open ended. Brock departure was forced deciding to pursue doctor thing in last minute .
Misty didnt got any closure being randomly called back to gym taking it out of obligation and necessity while her goal of water master and several things ended unfinished.
Etc.

Is there any reason to believe how Jessie, James and Meowth are going to get different treatment? Especially after fiasco with Team plasma along with fact how TR started to lose their initial purpose and stagnate in Unova currently due to lack of any real mission. Not really.
Writers really don't know how to write out characters,introducing new ones before they even finished business with previous ones.

p.s.Speaking of TR persona i dont think they lost their character.In Best Wishes Jessie,James and Meowth still have older personality traits as some episodes showed, as well time when Meowth joined twerps.
Reason why TR isnt showing more of their comedy side is because they arent getting much focus per episodes often missing from them,with writers probably wanting to put focus primarily on their new role when they appear with JJM finding their tasks important not wanting to let down Giovanni. After all how will characters act depends on circumstances and situation they are put in.

Originally Posted by [pokemon fan 132

We already had some who had appeal and potential leaving before it was time(like Tracey,Misty May etc). Repeating same mistake with Jessie,James and Meowth replacing them prematurely despite having juice to do some great thing out of it would be slap in face to their story and all years spent in show.

I'd say that removing their personalities, taking away their pokemon, and turning the series' most fleshed out main characters into one-dimensional robots who only appear once every few months was a bigger slap in the face to their story than any rushed ending they'd pull out of their asses now. At least an ending *now* would put us fans who hate the direction the trio's been taken in out of our misery.

I still hope they will back to normal by the end of BW.

Originally Posted by Dogasu

I'd say that removing their personalities, taking away their pokemon, and turning the series' most fleshed out main characters into one-dimensional robots who only appear once every few months was a bigger slap in the face to their story than any rushed ending they'd pull out of their asses now. At least an ending *now* would put us fans who hate the direction the trio's been taken in out of our misery.

Leaving their older pokemon behind to be fair was nothing surprising, since Unova is supposed to be filled with 5th generation only to better go in correlation with its distance and isolation from older sagas. I dont think its fair to claim how TR lost their personalities either because that simply isnt true. Being serious, confident and firm in fulfilling your assignments are personality traits too with Jessie, James and Meowth becoming more cunning and smart than people thought they would ever be. Their older traits clearly exist and goofy side too with writers showing it from time to time. Such as in episodes like "Scare at Litwick Mansion", when Meowth joined Ash and co tricking them in being their ally etc. and i presume how display of older traits from TR from time to time is done with purpose of better explaining Jessie,James and Meowth shift in BW.
Writers are letting know audience how their older quirks and goofy side is still part of them as some episodes showed,with reason why they became more serious and competent in Unova being because they dont want to fail expectations from Giovanni letting him down after being given trust and important mission taking it very seriously.

Either way most important thing abour TR leaving is how sending characters out from pokemon on low note still wouldnt wash out sore taste in mouth and disappointment TR fans feel. It would only deny TR characters of being given opportunity to be brought back on right track receiving justice. There are several characters i liked in pokemon series and i can tell that its much worse seeing them eventually abandoned and forgotten(like Misty, May etc became)instead of existing within anime being done new/fresh things with him with viewers being given chance to learn more about those they like.

For every problem there exist solution so instead of dropping Jessie,James and Meowth after so many years like garbage,it would be more welcomed to fix on mistakes writers are doing with TR trio revamping their role and getting to play important part in anime story in future feeling relevant again. Yes writers arent handling TR new role best, but we cant deny how they are experimenting with new things. Explaining Ash rotation of pokemon, don George tournaments ,inclusion of Ash female rival etc. How well this experiments went is another thing, but they are trying to do something different.

But aren't you aware that BW2 have old Pokémon now? And they are focusing quite a lot on it on their BW2 promotion. This means that, by June, older Pokémon will start appearing again, I think. I believe we can take this as granted.

This may be the reason behind Team Rocket's lack of new Pokémon/evolutions. They may have Seviper and Carnivine return permanently. And, if not, at least they will appear for a two-parter or for some special episode.

Agreed, its time that TPC learns how to fix their mistakes with characters rather than deciding to throw them away in the trash.

Originally Posted by Bluelatios

Agreed, its time that TPC learns how to fix their mistakes with characters rather than deciding to throw them away in the trash.

TPCI didn't have anything to do with Team Rocket losing their personalities and extremely boring. That was the creative staff in Japan. I'm pretty sure that they're not involved with the writing process for the series at all, so blaming them really doesn't make any sense.

Originally Posted by PTOldMan

This may be the reason behind Team Rocket's lack of new Pokémon/evolutions. They may have Seviper and Carnivine return permanently. And, if not, at least they will appear for a two-parter or for some special episode.

I think when TR leave the show you'll see them reuniting with their Sinnoh Pokemon and Wobbufett that they left at Rocket HQ. Of course I'd like to see James get Cacnea back but that's probably unlikely. Arbok/Weezing likely won't be seen ever again.

Originally Posted by Bluelatios

Agreed, its time that TPC learns how to fix their mistakes with characters rather than deciding to throw them away in the trash.

I believe that ShoPro's fault. TPC's only purpose on the anime is localization.