Thread: Will BW be the end of Team Rocket/Rocket-Dan?

Depends how far writers are willing to go with them. End of their mission with Meloetta and Kami trio left things open ended with Jessie, James and Meowth not really leaving in way which you could call someone conclusion and Giovanni wasn't defeated with crime organization still posing threat.
Which implies how story with TR organization isn't over yet and how true climax is saved for later.

Return to Kanto also implies that either Ash and co will go there after league having final confrontation with them, or that Giovanni defeat and disband of whole organization wont happen until very end with Jessie, James and Meowth being given new mission which involves following Ash again. Which as much to someone disappointment in theory could happen.

But really only possible way to justify TR further stalking of Ash which avoids going back solely to comic relief(slash regression) is if they remain more skilled and successful in their attempts, ending as part of their new mission handed over from Giovanni not serving as cheap ploy device anymore which tries to catch yellow rodent.
After all you can have both competent and goofy antagonists.

Few episodes ago i was almost positive how BW will indeed be end of Jessie, James and Meowth with all guidelines pointing toward that. But after rather rushed two part with Meloetta and Giovanni slipping away from hands of law again, opens window for TR possible stay in show for time being.
Unless whole retreat of Giovanni with his loyal servants was supposed to be writers "big finale for TR", which wouldn't make any sense leaving them to continue with their malicious plans in pokemon regions not providing any sort of ending for JJM trio.

Than again writers are horrible at giving proper closures to characters once they're gone leave things open(Misty, Brock , Ambipom etc comes to mind), and not so great writing in current BW increase my skepticism even more.

When looking back Jessie, James and Meowth has been in this show from start gaining massive popularity over time becoming timeless in pokemon series, so for that reason alone its hard to believe having them replaced and gone forever before show ends.
But than i start remembering when people thought how original female will never leave, how Brock long stay ensures he will be with Ash until very end etc and they still left.

Nowadays we know how long stay, popularity and iconic status means nothing to writers, so TR departure is very possible.
Unfortunately in most cases character leaving in this show means being gone forever, which i hope wont apply to Rocket trio not ending erased never to be seen again.

Originally Posted by PokéMaid

Myself, I don't hope so.

If they'll leave in BW? That really depends. They are and have always been the most popular characters in the anime. With their radio, I don't think so.

Rocket trio is definitely among most popular characters this show ever had along with Misty, May, Dawn and Brock. But i don't think they are most popular with Ash having probably strongest following as series main hero.

Even so popularity of character doesn't play role in his leaving, with TR being already put in consideration to leave after Johto at some point judging by mr. Shudo blogs.

If someone asked me if BW would be the end of TR half a year ago, I'd say yes. But ever since the radio show started, I'm gonna say: definitely no. The radio revived Rockets at their bests and people love it. Even if their role in the anime decreased, I got to admit that this is surely the best era they ever had - yes, even better than original Kanto era, as right now they have the best contact with fans and they give them what they want receiving their love as a reward <3 They can't take them away from people anytime soon. Besides, right now, they're everything Shudo ever wanted them to be and I think it's beautiful :')

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

D
Nowadays we know how long stay, popularity and iconic status means nothing to writers, so TR departure is very possible.

Long stay characters, like Takeshi? If they got stale, then they should go. Popular characters, like the main girls? Popularity never lasts forever and they're always easy to replace with brand new characters that have fresh popularity. Iconic status? That can't be replaced and it never fades away. But who on the show has an iconic status really?

That's Satoshi & Pikachu and Rockets. Many people of Pokemon staff have always acknowledged that that they're two parts that really make this show. I'm not saying of course that everyone acknowledged that... (I'm looking at you, Omae-person) I have no idea what happaned behind the scenes when the staff was debating the construction of Best Wishes series. But whoever's idea it was and whatever motives, it doesnt matter as it caused some problems and controversies that needed to be repaired - which is why the radio was created. People always say that the staff doesn't care about the fans think, but this is not true, because there are people in the staff who definitely do care.

Originally Posted by Jeshi

That's Satoshi & Pikachu and Rockets. Many people of Pokemon staff have always acknowledged that that they're two parts that really make this show.

I'd agree if this was a few years ago, but TR still haven't appeared in roughly half of BW's episodes. You do realize this saga is actually the least amount of screentime they've ever gotten, even if they have proper arcs?

Even if in Johto/AG/DP they were basically just used for the same, "steal the pokemon" nonsense in every episode, they still got at least 5 minutes of screentime per episode. Now they barely get 1-2 minutes if they appear at all.

Originally Posted by Jeshi

Long stay characters, like Takeshi? If they got stale, then they should go. Popular characters, like the main girls? Popularity never lasts forever and they're always easy to replace with brand new characters that have fresh popularity. Iconic status? That can't be replaced and it never fades away. But who on the show has an iconic status really?

Many people thought Brock was stale already in Johto or Hoenn, but writers didn't replaced him until BW. Same applies to Ash, TR etc with many fans being tired of them for years wanting them go, while others still enjoying in them.

Whether someone is stale or not is highly subjective term to use. Needless to say if someone is "stale" he can become interesting again to fans with innovative writing and fresh, new subplots made with purpose of adding new life to his story. So that argument is irrelevant.

Regarding popularity , it maybe doesn't last forever but how memorable someone is determines how long his popularity will last. Examples of Misty or May who left cast long ago still being among most popular characters shows this. Inclusion of new character doesn't guarantee he will end up equally liked and accepted as his predecessor.

As for your question, aside from Ash, Pikachu and TR; Brock and Misty fall in category of iconic characters too. Solely because they are original characters forming cast which started this show and made its name worldwide recognized in first place.
This applies to pretty much every franchise with first group usually ending as most recognized.

That's Satoshi & Pikachu and Rockets. Many people of Pokemon staff have always acknowledged that that they're two parts that really make this show. I'm not saying of course that everyone acknowledged that... (I'm looking at you, Omae-person) I have no idea what happaned behind the scenes when the staff was debating the construction of Best Wishes series. But whoever's idea it was and whatever motives, it doesnt matter as it caused some problems and controversies that needed to be repaired - which is why the radio was created. People always say that the staff doesn't care about the fans think, but this is not true, because there are people in the staff who definitely do care.

Every character in this show is expandable, except Ash and Pikachu. Jessie, James and Meowth fall in this category too.

If they were so crucial toward anime they wouldn't come in consideration of being replaced at some point. Specifically after Johto, according to Takeshi Shudo blogs.

They were kept, but it doesn't change fact how they were never safe from ending canned, with limited amount of appearances, revival of Giovanni and whole TR organization in BW hinting until now toward their eventual departure.

With return to Kanto, things can go either way but we can't know with certainty if they will stay or leave in future.

p.s. Radio show about them while noble gesture to older fans, has no bearing over their departure either being in end writers call. And no writers don't pay attention to older fans and their desires, with their priority being Japanese viewers which are part of target demographic not being particularly attached to older characters like we are.

Originally Posted by Jeshi

The radio revived Rockets at their bests and people love it.

You and YOUR circle of people love it.

You can't speak for everyone, as I've seen plenty who detest the radio show and find it an incomprehensible mess.

Originally Posted by ObjectionMan

Originally Posted by Jeshi

The radio revived Rockets at their bests and people love it.

You and YOUR circle of people love it.

You can't speak for everyone, as I've seen plenty who detest the radio show and find it an incomprehensible mess.

I agree. The radio show is nice but the fact is that they are criminals and I never liked that about them. Stealing Ash's pokemon and those who surrounded him was not fun to watch. I get the system but there needs to be a change.

Response to a few points brought up in the review thread for last week's episode and why the idea that "the Rocket-Dan is gone forever!" is not just the insane ramblings of a Rocket hater:

- A lot of people have argued that last week's episode couldn't have been the writers writing the Rocket-Dan out of the show because they didn't get any real closure whatsoever. My response to that is...so what? Whoever said they had *had* to have a "good" ending before they're allowed to leave the show as main characters? For example, the idea that the Rocket-Dan *has* to disband before they're allowed to leave has never been so much as implied by anyone working on the show; that's only what we fans *want* to happen. I absolutely agree with the people who think they should disband before they leave, but I also understand that it's not up to us. We don't write the show, and if the show's writers want the Rocket trio to leave without the group disbanding, then that's what they'll do.

It's just like how some fans expect Satoshi to become a Pokemon Master before he leaves the show, if ever. Would it be a satisfying end to his story for him to achieve his goal? Absolutely. Is it also just as likely that he'll lose a random league, decide to continue his pokemon journey, and then his last line in the series be "I'm definitely going to be a Pokemon Master someday!"? Also yes.

- Nyasu promised that they will definitely come back during last week's Live Caster segment. This is true. It is also true, however, that for the past two months all of the promotion for the two-parter we just had - the special poster (they don't make one of those for every two-parter!), the Pokemon Smash coverage of the Rockets, the stuff on the websites - promised that this two-parter will definitely be the Rocket-Dan's final battle. There weren't any qualifiers in there about this being the "final battle in Isshu" or "the final battle...for now!," either. And all the majority of us have been talking about these past two months, in regards to these episodes, is how the Rocket-Dan is ending. And yet...all that is negated by one line said after the show? No. You can't just assume that we've been lied to the past two months just because Nyasu said that one line at the end of the show.

- The action figures coming out next year don't mean a thing. As I've mentioned before, we have a line of figures called "Pocket Monsters Best Wishes PARTNERS" that feature Nobori and Kudari, two characters who haven't been in the TV series in about a year. Yes, they're game characters, but given the fact that this is a line of toys based on the TV series, these figures are TV series Nobori and Kudari, not game Nobori and Kudari. So if the Musashi and Kojirou figures, which are part of another line of toys, are proof that the Rockets are coming back, then does this mean that Nobori and Kudari are coming back to the show as well? After all, the argument seems to be that "they wouldn't make action figures of characters who have left," yet that's exactly what they seem to be doing with the Nobori and Kudari ones.

So you have to either believe that Nobori and Kudari are coming back to the series since "action figure = future appearance" (and if so, have fun figuring out how that will work), or you have to believe that these action figures mean nothing and they're just making toys based on whoever's popular.

- The Rocket-Dan is now in Kanto, and Satoshi's from Kanto, so that means they have to meet again! They might meet, yes, just like Satoshi might meet Kenji and Orchid-Hakase the next time he goes home. But that doesn't mean they're going to become recurring characters again.

- Finally, why would the trio have to go back to Kanto to be absent from now until the Isshu League's over? We got that long four month absence between the Kami two-parter and the fossil episodes without the trio having to go back to their home region, remember? So why do they need to go back now for a similar gap between appearances? Why not just have them lay low for a few months until their next mission like they've done in the past?

I'll be away from Bulbagarden for a while and won't have a chance to respond to these right away, but I just thought I'd throw some of these points out there in the meantime.

Originally Posted by Dogasu

- A lot of people have argued that last week's episode couldn't have been the writers writing the Rocket-Dan out of the show because they didn't get any real closure whatsoever. My response to that is...so what? Whoever said they had *had* to have a "good" ending before they're allowed to leave the show as main characters? For example, the idea that the Rocket-Dan *has* to disband before they're allowed to leave has never been so much as implied by anyone working on the show; that's only what we fans *want* to happen. I absolutely agree with the people who think they should disband before they leave, but I also understand that it's not up to us. We don't write the show, and if the show's writers want the Rocket trio to leave without the group disbanding, then that's what they'll do.

Both Team Magma/Aqua and Galactic had episodes that purposely said they disbanded. Even Hunter J was sent to her watery grave.

If this was the real end of TR, then Giovanni probably would have died or had an ambiguous disappearance, Zager would declare, "Team Rocket is finished," and Jessie/James/Meowth would probably get a following episode dedicating to whatever they do next. There is no reason to keep Giovanni active if they had no plans for the organization anymore.

- Nyasu promised that they will definitely come back during last week's Live Caster segment. This is true. It is also true, however, that for the past two months all of the promotion for the two-parter we just had - the special poster (they don't make one of those for every two-parter!), the Pokemon Smash coverage of the Rockets, the stuff on the websites - promised that this two-parter will definitely be the Rocket-Dan's final battle. There weren't any qualifiers in there about this being the "final battle in Isshu" or "the final battle...for now!," either. And all the majority of us have been talking about these past two months, in regards to these episodes, is how the Rocket-Dan is ending. And yet...all that is negated by one line said after the show? No. You can't just assume that we've been lied to the past two months just because Nyasu said that one line at the end of the show.

It was their final Unova mission. This leads me to believe Ash is going to leave Unova as soon as the league ends. Really reminds me of the end of Hoenn, and how the writers immediately had Ash leave right after the Hoenn league ended. The TRio have returned to Kanto, its possible the big TR finale will take place in Kanto...where it all began.

- The Rocket-Dan is now in Kanto, and Satoshi's from Kanto, so that means they have to meet again! They might meet, yes, just like Satoshi might meet Kenji and Orchid-Hakase the next time he goes home. But that doesn't mean they're going to become recurring characters again.

TRio are the villains, it's a lot different than characters stationary in one place like Tracey or characters who haven't had a cameo in 7 years like that girl who liked water pokemon.

Nobody is saying there has to be a huge thing, a simple 3-part arc dedicated to Team Rocket would be fitting during a brief Kanto visit.

Finally, why would the trio have to go back to Kanto to be absent from now until the Isshu League's over? We got that long four month absence between the Kami two-parter and the fossil episodes without the trio having to go back to their home region, remember? So why do they need to go back now for a similar gap between appearances? Why not just have them lay low for a few months until their next mission like they've done in the past?

The upcoming episodes gear Ash up for the league and they don't need to appear. They pretty much ruined the Nando battle by appearing in the Sinnoh league. The writers are keeping them out now but when 2013 rolls around they can gear them up for their real farewell.

Do I believe this is TR's last saga? Absolutely. Best Wishes was the experiment to see if the show could go on without the TRio attacking Ash's group in every episode...and it worked. They're appeared in maybe half of BW's episodes and in the ones they do they only get 1-2 minute scenes. If anything this is very similar to how phased out Brock was in DP to the point where he felt like he was barely there.

I view the radio show as the same thing as when Kasumi's VA hosted the hoso specials during AG, an era where she was written off the show. If anything it's a last hurrah for the Team Rocket fanbase, and are at least giving them more love than Brock's fans got during DP.

Originally Posted by Dogasu

We don't write the show, and if the show's writers want the Rocket trio to leave without the group disbanding, then that's what they'll do.

That's all good and well, but since not even you can deny that there is ambiguity as to whether or not Team Rocket have left for good, it is a valid point to bring up the unresolved story. Why wouldn't the writers want to give the characters closure? They did as much for the previous main characters (who were at least given a direction for their continued story) and even the evil organizations. Everything the TRio have ever done has involved Ash and Pikachu in some way; we have no telling what they would do without them around.

- Nyasu promised that they will definitely come back during last week's Live Caster segment. This is true. It is also true, however, that for the past two months all of the promotion for the two-parter we just had - the special poster (they don't make one of those for every two-parter!), the Pokemon Smash coverage of the Rockets, the stuff on the websites - promised that this two-parter will definitely be the Rocket-Dan's final battle. There weren't any qualifiers in there about this being the "final battle in Isshu" or "the final battle...for now!," either.

There are qualifiers in "Farewell?" (from the poster) and "Unova's Greatest Battle" (title). It all adds up with Meowth saying that they're just leaving Unova.

And all the majority of us have been talking about these past two months, in regards to these episodes, is how the Rocket-Dan is ending. And yet...all that is negated by one line said after the show? No. You can't just assume that we've been lied to the past two months just because Nyasu said that one line at the end of the show.

Getting us to speculate about the two-parter being Team Rocket's finale was an excellent strategy to increase hype and ratings. What's the point of Meowth promising us a return right after the supposedly final episode had finished airing? He also directly negated what the TV Tokyo website had said about the 3DS being a farewell gift, saying that it was actually a present to the fans waiting to see Team Rocket return to the show. Give me one good reason for lying about that.

So you have to either believe that Nobori and Kudari are coming back to the series since "action figure = future appearance" (and if so, have fun figuring out how that will work), or you have to believe that these action figures mean nothing and they're just making toys based on whoever's popular.

You're right that not every toy release has to be related to current events. But the set that includes the Team Rocket figures just happens to also feature Eevee and Lucario, which we know will be featured soon (and presumably, both will have roles in the last league episodes in January). Charizard is also featured in that set, and since it is so prevalent in other upcoming merchandise releases, past experience dictates that it is also due for a future appearance. It is not at all a leap to suspect that the other Kanto starters, Mew, Mewtwo and Team Rocket will appear in 2013.

- The Rocket-Dan is now in Kanto, and Satoshi's from Kanto, so that means they have to meet again! They might meet, yes, just like Satoshi might meet Kenji and Orchid-Hakase the next time he goes home. But that doesn't mean they're going to become recurring characters again.

We're not saying that they will necessarily be recurring. But if they appear at least one more time in Best Wishes, then the two-parter wasn't their real finale.

- Finally, why would the trio have to go back to Kanto to be absent from now until the Isshu League's over? We got that long four month absence between the Kami two-parter and the fossil episodes without the trio having to go back to their home region, remember? So why do they need to go back now for a similar gap between appearances? Why not just have them lay low for a few months until their next mission like they've done in the past?

The theory is that Ash won't stay in Unova after the league. In that case, there is no reason for Team Rocket to stay in Unova in the meantime.

Originally Posted by Silktree

That's all good and well, but since not even you can deny that there is ambiguity as to whether or not Team Rocket have left for good, it is a valid point to bring up the unresolved story. Why wouldn't the writers want to give the characters closure? They did as much for the previous main characters (who were at least given a direction for their continued story) and even the evil organizations. Everything the TRio have ever done has involved Ash and Pikachu in some way; we have no telling what they would do without them around.

To be fair it wouldn't be first time that writers replaced character while leaving his story unresolved. Misty never received closure to her water master goal not really being given direction that she came closer to it, with gym being used as last minute plotline to have her leave. Later while getting some development, there were many questions left unanswered about her ambitions.

Max just returned back to gym to help his father, never being able to start his journey due to no-aging rule.

May, Dawn or Brock granted got more of closure to their stories but still they didn't accomplished their dreams.

So as much as frustrating and terrible would be to end Jessie, James and Meowth on this note, in theory writers could just leave things at that sweeping things under the rug.
I sure hope they wont, because after being part of anime for 15 years and counting they deserve proper conclusion to their story coming to realization what all three wants to do in life after Giovanni and Tr organization finally falls down.

I could see something along lines of deciding to start over new leaf realizing how Giovanni never respected or cared for them,using them only for his selfish plans. Which would be nice twist in characterization being interesting to see Jessie, James and Meowth going through some kind of soul searching wandering what to do next with their lives. Meowth already had this crisis in past.Basically through whole course of pokemon series TR was always searching themselves not knowing what career to follow nor where is their place in world,explaining why Jessie constantly changed jobs.

I could also see James resolving issues he had with family in past.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

To be fair it wouldn't be first time that writers replaced character while leaving his story unresolved. Misty never received closure to her water master goal not really being given direction that she came closer to it, with gym being used as last minute plotline to have her leave. Later on leaving unanswered questions.

Max just returned back to gym to help his father, never being able to start his journey due to no-aging rule.

Those were bad ways to send those characters off, but at least we knew what being a gym leader or a gym leader's assistant entailed. What are the TRio supposed to do for Giovanni now? We have no idea unless the writers show us.

Originally Posted by Silktree

Those were bad ways to send those characters off, but at least we knew what being a gym leader or a gym leader's assistant entailed. What are the TRio supposed to do for Giovanni now? We have no idea unless the writers show us.

True, even though we don't know if character will continue pursuing her quest or stay at gym, or if another will ever start journey not being precised direction in which stories will go, at least its showed what they do for time being.
So i cant argue that.

However with TR we didn't got even that, just withdrawing to Kanto after Meloetta and Kami trio storyline ended leaving us in darkness. There wasn't revealed what will happen next, JJM trio is still working for dr. Zager and Giovanni managed to save himself with crime organization still existing, so because of that little fact i believe this wasn't last we have seen from Jessie, James and Meowth,.

I doubt writers would leave TR organization to continue exist spreading their negative influence, so sooner or later downfall is expected to happen imo. And with that hopefully providing some decent send of for good old goofy trio.
Unless they plan to continue on with Jessie, James and Meowth toning down on their activities until 6th generation starts and they get new mission.

Masaaki Iwane answered a question by someone who said that she missed certain scenes of Team Rocket, particularly angry/nervous Jessie and tearful James, saying that she feels like him (the picture she used was from the episode in which James has to say goodbye to Victreebel).
Masaaki Iwane's answer was the following: " いずれこういうシーン があるかもしれません （が、何も申し上げられません）", which, according to Google Translate, is "There may be a scene like this one (but I can not say anything)". Masaaki Iwane's answers are normally evasive, but this name we had something different, as he seemed to answer while knowing something!

no they are like ash enslaved to follow the plot until the franchise dies

I'm so happy that I will miss Team Rocket. :)