Thread: To what degree was Johto flawed?

Originally Posted by Afrojisiac-19

And you have to understand that people were watching the show for completely different reasons. From your statement, I can clearly tell that I had VERY different reasons for watching the show than you, and I didn't see any indication of the show ending.

At the time, at least originally, I watched Johto because it was Pokemon. I loved Kanto and Orange Islands and originally thought Johto was going to be even better. The very beginning of Johto actually starts out decently, but it doesn't take too long before the tedious fillers start coming in and everything starts to get stale. I think the majority of the fandom agrees that right after Goldenrod City is where Johto goes downhill, and that's when people got really bored of the show.

Master Quest was a bit better, but that was only because it was written the way AG was, with the writers finally trying to pick the show up off the ground before AG began to give it a fresh start. That's why all of a sudden late Johto seems so much better with these mini-arcs and more focus on the characters and pokemon....simply because it was basically a preview of AG using the same writing style.

I gather how Johto was intended to be treated like continuity from Kanto.After Tracey fiasco and after witnessing how their initial fearing of Brock being viewed as racial stereotype,writers decided to go back to group which started series already proving to be well liked and proven formula.

Initially it was planned to keep Ash,Misty and Brock as group permanently in series from there and onwards,but after ratings started to drop due to poor writing and pokemon fad starting to dye out writers changed their mind and opted for adding some change in cast.

Speaking of Johto,Master Quest was probably best season with writers fixing several flaws compared to Johto Journeys and Johto League Champions..For start number of pointless fillers decreased significantly,Misty and Brock(to lesser extent)received more focus,there were several arcs introduced which contributed to current plot(Like Whirl Cup,Red Gyarados,Lugia,Larvitar etc),gym leaders were depicted in better light(like Pryce and his past or Clair which pulled with itself mini arc about Dragonite)group pokemon started to gain better development(evidenced by more evolutions,captures and change of attacks in their roasters) along with Johto Silver Conference being one of best leagues we ever had.

Reason why Johto wasnt treated well in some aspects initially was because of several factors:
-for start its needed to understand how this was first time writers had to write for long regions with their task being to stretch it out over span of 3 years until new games come out.Prior to that they only wrote for short regions like Kanto and OI with Johtoi being their testing ground finding themselves basically infront if wall.

-another reason is because games didnt offered any new sidequest and features being pretty poor in that aspect.Writers didnt had much material to use there and while they could had expand on Misty and Brock stories making Johto more enjoyable, problem is that original series were mostly Ash centralized anime.That and ex head writer mr.Shudo as evidenced in his blogs never cared much for main cast in general.

It seems writing staff also couldnt agree over some things giving up on initial plans.Like infamous GS ball plot with which it was planned to create huge arc out of it in Johto showcasing Celebii in that way.

-according to ex head writer blogs,Takeshi Shudo was also disappointed apparently for not being let to write anime in way he wanted taking TR in direction he intended,at that point basically giving up on series reflecting his frustration on quality of anime.There is a reason why in Master Quest things started to improve with Ash,Misty,Brock and concept of anime in general starting to get back on right track.

After mr,Shudo stepped out from head position,writers get themselves together realizing what they were doing wrong trying to change quality of writing with same style being transferred to Hoenn.

Originally Posted by Afrojisiac-19

As for the personalities of Misty and Brock...understand that you aren't the target audience...for all we know, there could've been fans who only watched Kanto, then left, and then new ones come for OI, and then left, and then Johto. For all we know, Johto could've been the first time that certain viewers of the target audience saw Ash, Misty, and Brock together. They wouldn't think of their personalities as being "bland" especially if they didn't have anything to compare it to.

Thing is that there was nothing wrong with Ash,Misty or Brock personality in this region persay.What this group needed in Johto was more screen time which hampered chance to see them shine and interact more,but they still had chemistry which can be noticed in several episodes with their personalities meshing well.

Ash,Misty and Brock in Johto still actually felt like genuine group of friends having good chemistry and several memorable moments.Interaction between Ash,Misty and Brock in Johto was still on its fun giving that touch of being long time known friends.They all started to mature getting to know each other better developing tolerance toward their flaws while still having good interacting,.I remember Ash was still naive and stubborn but also started to mature not going with "head through wall so much",Misty became more supportive to Ash and Brock becoming closer as friends while still still being stubborn and possessive being passionate about things,but instead of being so violent she used more of her cynical and spunky side.While Brock was making sure to keep them out of trouble serving as caretaker for them with his calm and wise attitude still providing help in some battle strategies.

Many people thought dynamic between them was one of best both in Kanto and Johto.
Problem was poor writing and character neglect which didnt allowed for characters to be used to full potential being victims from lack of proper screen time.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Most of us were the target audience when Johto began airing in 2001. The fact that even as a kid I knew what I was watching was worse than Kanto/Orange says a lot. As said the only reason I watched all of Johto when I was younger was because I thought the show was going to end after the Johto league and I wanted to see all of Ash's adventure.[>/

Well personally i managed to enjoy in Johto despite its flaws feeling fresh and new when i watched it for first time.

It wasnt my favorite saga but i still managed to have fun with several episodes appreciating that Ash sidekicks received slightly more focus with some things being improved compared to earlier seasons.

Otherwise I would have likely stopped watching sometime after Goldenrod City like most people did.

Only problem is those who stopped watching never saw rest of Johto to get full picture out of it.And i wouldnt say majority stopped watching.Ratings did fall,but never to that point when there was no going back.

Hoenn struggled initially with TV ratings as well taking time for people to adjust to changes.

The only thing I liked about Johto was Gary vs Ash at the Silver Conference. That's pretty much the only thing I ever looked forward to. The rest were just so-so.

I think the funny thing is when Johto first started it seemed like it had the potential to be epic. I don't know why they didn't adapt more plots from the games and have a huge Team Rocket showdown back then. It also felt like Paul in DP was to make up for Silver never being used.

Too bad the original trio didn't have a better saga to go out on.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

I think the funny thing is when Johto first started it seemed like it had the potential to be epic. I don't know why they didn't adapt more plots from the games and have a huge Team Rocket showdown back then. It also felt like Paul in DP was to make up for Silver never being used.

Too bad the original trio didn't have a better saga to go out on.

I think that the reason they didn't adapt more plots from the games was mainly because they couldn't. Most of the plots in Gold and Silver involved Team Rocket trying to get back into the scene and find Giovanni, which wouldn't have made sense for the anime given that they didn't adapt most of the Team Rocket related events back in Kanto and Giovanni was clearly still the head of Team Rocket. The Sunicune plot could have been interesting, but that wasn't introduced until Crystal anyway. They could have used Silver as Ash's rival instead of doing whatever they were trying to do with Gary or include both of them, both of which could have been pretty cool. Paul does have some similarities to Silver that the writers probably wanted to use, but I'm not sure if that would be to make up for Silver never being used in the series.

It flawed to the degree that not that much extra things happens whirl island and rocket eps that's it. They could have done something to add more story to it. Like they could have had Misty enter the league. Remember when Ash said" I didn't see you winning any of those matches" That's a good point why would Misty just folllow him around and in a sense put her journey on hold.

I think if they did more with Misty this saga than just have her in the background with Togepi besides those eps that did focus on her, there would have been a lot less complaining about how she was handled.

The Seaking catching contest, Whirl Cup and that underwater Gym ep was a step in the right direction but it wasn't enough.

That would be dependent on how she would have been handled. If she was simply given more Water-themed battles to take part in, with no connection between any of them, that would have been just as bad. What she really needed was a sense of story to go along with her battles that spanned across all of Johto to develop her character and foreshadow her departure, so that when she finally got the boot, it would have been done after or as the conclusion of her story.

With what we got, the abrupt dismissal of her character that had no followup to it irritated a large amount of people, and simply adding in more and more battles would have contributed nothing positive to that.

The writers really were bad with foreshadowing weren't they? Gary's decision to become a researcher also came out of nowhere back then.

Since most people weren't even watching the Johto episodes by then, some people didn't even find out Misty was gone for 2-3 years later, so I don't think it mattered much. Very few Kanto/Orange fans made it through all of Johto in its original run.

Had the writing been anything stellar and consistent, Misty/Gary/Brock could have possibly had a overlying character-evolving arc throughout Johto that would have given proper foreshadowing and closure for the former two, and a plateau for the latter to reach and expand upon. Had the writing been that good at making everyone not Ash enticing, a significant portion of fans might have stuck around had they the means to do so. Had those fans been around to see them develop and eventually see the former two go on their merry ways, they might have felt satisfied with it and not feel jipped out to see their favorite character go away. Everyone would be winners.


But them's the breaks.

Sometimes I wonder if Brock should have had his send off here for a true original trio finale. Although I did still like Brock in AG oddly enough.

Brock needed to stay to fulfill the big-brother role. It would have left some unfortunate implications about the series if "two pre-teen kids traveling alone in the wilderness filled with wild animals and an evil group of thugs hot on their tail" formed the basis of a majority of the episodes in a certain saga.

Having a permanent original trio breakup would have been nice and proper closing, but then they would need someone to fill that third niche, and everyone knows how Tracey worked out. There was no one to fill that role in Hoenn; OCs are a solid no, Brendan's too young, they could have used Norman, maybe, but that would have caused a mess concerning his relationship with May. Brock was really all that was left.



And now I'm going off of a tangent. Basically, Brock being gone would have left his niche vacant with no one to properly fill it, so he was kept.

When it comes to Johto and treatment of characters while most were poorly handled with lot of mistakes occurring during that time,i certainly dont remember Misty as someone who only held egg during Johto.She received some good development there contrary to some belief becoming more tolerant,mature and level headed allowing to gain more confidence in herself,get over complex of feeling less worthy which was put on by sisters along with improving battling skills becoming recognized by several people.
She also battled far more compared to Kanto and OI along with getting her own arc(Whirl Cup)which started to actively focus on her goal)

She had several notable interactions with various characters too contributing to group dynamic and starting to show more sides of character which were often overshadowed by temper in past starting to feel more genuine and multidimensional.Regardless of some things being mishandled i still enjoyed in Misty character during Johto as well providing humor and contributing to good character dynamic by acting like someone who would balance out Ash impulsiveness and naivety and Brocks obsession over girls with her spunky, and timid personality giving identity to group.

Likewise to say how she was in Johto only active in episodes which were focused on her is huge exaggeration,with there being several moments where she wasnt main center of attention having some role or contributing toward episode resolution.Like when helping to resolve mystery about Gligarman,helping to get group out of Hoot Hoot forest,contributing toward resolution of episode plot in "Heartbreak of Brock"playing significant part there,helping to battle TR in Lugia and Red Gyaradis arc,trying to get two characters together in "Hi Ho Silver Away"with romantic being invoked in her etc,etc,etc.

I agree how writers dropped ball with character in Johto mistreating her story,goal and pokemon leaving many things untied and poorly handled.Being often in background not being active also hurt development of character and its involvement in story,but at the end of the day she wasnt treated nearly as bad like Brock was.

Who barely interacted with characters,remained quite stoic and passive during whole saga,had only one capture,barely battled,had less character centric episodes with little to none development happening there.

Originally Posted by Sonic Boom

That would be dependent on how she would have been handled. If she was simply given more Water-themed battles to take part in, with no connection between any of them, that would have been just as bad. What she really needed was a sense of story to go along with her battles that spanned across all of Johto to develop her character and foreshadow her departure, so that when she finally got the boot, it would have been done after or as the conclusion of her story.

With what we got, the abrupt dismissal of her character that had no followup to it irritated a large amount of
people, and simply adding in more and more battles would have contributed nothing positive to that.

Whats interesting is that after Shudo stopped doing series construction it can be noticed increase of Misty focus in Master Quest,catching new pokemon,having evolution,getting her own arc like Whirl Cup with something being done about goal,screen time getting increased with character having several memorable interactions with characters like Dorian,Sakura,Egan etc starting to feel getting back on right track.
Other members of writing staff showed more care for Misty than mr.Shudo did making it seem like they tried to redeem for some of ex head writer mistakes.However unfortunate circumstance is fact how there simply wasnt left enough time to see some further notable progress of Misty story being made with character being given justice and fleshed out to satisfying degree.Since it was already decided that Misty leaves cast they couldnt do much more in short period of time and later on she wasnt major character anymore to warrant more exposure.

Which resulted in Misty never receiving closure to story and goal with several plots being left unresolved.

Thinking about it actually whole anime started to improve in Master Quest being best part of Johto(along with its start where things felt initially promising) with different writing style starting to take place which was transferred to Hoenn later on with future improvements just being tackled on already established formula.This was season where arcs like Red Gyarados,Lugia,Dragonite and Whirl islands happened,Fillers were decreased with Ash and traveling companions starting to get more involved in story.Recurring pokemon like Delibird or later Larvitar were introduced with purpose of adding some impact on story bringing more humor etc.

Talking about Hoenn i always thought it would have been ultimately better choice if Misty was kept instead of Brock.She was fun character and we might have had for first time in history two girls in same cast which would allow for great dynamic.Not to mention Misty would than have chance to be developed more being more interesting option than what we got.

Than again as realist, i have to admit writers would never include two girls at same time in cast.

I wouldn't say Johto as a whole was flawed, it had individual problems like all regions but I still would put it above its predecessors Kanto and Orange Islands, though not by much. I liked that Ash's pokémon finally had interesting personalities. Chikorita, Totodile, Noctowl and Heracross were all much more personable than their Kanto counterpart and I'd say Cyndaquil and Charizard while vastly different were both personable. The battles were more interesting, the pity badges were no more. The League was good and there are some amazing episodes in Johto.

Thaaaaaaat being said... there's a lot of bad in Johto too. It became apparent to me that in Johto, Misty and Brock had no more substance and the writers were really one note with them and their storylines were consistently underwhelming. They even recycled stuff that they had already wrapped up just to keep them relevent, like having Misty's sisters all of a sudden talk crap about her and having her trying to prove herself to them through a wannabe gym leader even though that was wrapped up all the way back in Kanto in the Misty Mermaid when she's proven herself to her sisters and they totally acknowledged her. They were just artificially kept there on the show despite being done, so very done, and it showed. The tedious fillers about Kanto pokémon we don't care about didn't help, neither did the tedious returns of the screen time hogging Kanto trio which killed both the eight gym and the League.

In short, everything that was Johto about Johto worked (the pokémon, the battles) but at times, it tried too much to be Kanto 2.0 and the things it brought over from Kanto (Gary being the lone exception) actually hurt the show in the end and gave that feeling of boredom that came with the Kantocentric Johto episodes. It didn't make the cut from Kanto big enough and reinvent itself enough to truly be great. Misty, Brock, Ash's Kanto pokémon shouldn't have stayed and in the end, that's what killed Johto.

Like EVERYONE has already said by harassing this horse beyond recognition, we all know Johto was flawed. But then again so is everything else anime-pokemon related, but that's not the point.

I think for all the hate Johto gets, it deserves some slack. Unlike Hoenn, Sinnoh, and Unova, there wasn't really a strong plot to build an entire series off of. (However, as seen in AG, just because you have an evil organization do something in the games, doesn't mean that it will translate well in the anime). Team Rocket is pretty much a laughable pushover in Gen II, considering that you never square off against Giovanni and the massive de-leveling of the pokemon. The plot with Eusine/Suicune was interesting, but that didn't come around until Crystal. And we simply cannot neglect the fact that the entire 2nd half of the game takes place in KANTO (a revisitation) and then a future battle with Red (impossible).

So basically, in a nutshell, the games really didn't give the writers a lot to work with or write about besides Gym Battles, stuff like the Bug Catching Contest or the Miltank Farm, or stuff like that...

So where does that leave them? You have a whole region to work with, with most trainers using Kanto Pokemon, especially most Gym Leader's teams being 50% Kanto Pokemon, or more. There were very few new game mechanics that they could've wrote about or explored (like shiny pokemon, eggs, steel/dark types, etc) but overall it was pretty much a blank slate as far as the anime was concerned.

Yes, they could've done better with it, but once again there wasn't much for them to use to begin with.